It's official - Gold is now MORE than platinum!

claychaser

www.kitco.com The World Spot Price - Asia/Europe/NY markets

MARKET IS OPEN
(Will close in 17 hrs. 46 mins.)
Metals Date Time (EST) Bid Ask Change from NY Close
GOLD 12/11/2008 23:29 811.20

PLATINUM
12/11/2008 23:22 807.00

What say the metal gurus and the masses? Does it mean time to buy or sell something???

Norseman88

Typically in the past when the price of Gold surpasses Platinum it is an excellent time to buy Platinum.

jpkinla

I would be careful in that trade however. While it is the FIRST time in 12 years that this relationship has favored gold, I would suggest in the current crisis GOLD will tend to outperform and could continue to do so for a while before this trade makes sense. The reason is that gold is perceived as a monetary metal and we are getting into an even worse stage of a monetary crisis. Platinum will always be a precious metal and is certainly rarer than gold but I have refrained from doing the switch YET. I will certainly do some but I suspect the spread will widen first before it shrinks.

Deadhorse

<< <i>Typically in the past when the price of Gold surpasses Platinum it is an excellent time to buy Platinum. >>




However, the market today barely resembles the past.

Industry is the primary user of platinum and industry isn't exactly booming these days, nor does it look like it's going to rebound anytime soon.

Gold could hit $900 and Platinum fall to $750 and I don't think any of the veterans around here would be totally shocked.

Personally, I sort of think we are in a waiting and watching period. December is a month known for being surprising, both up and down.

I am neither buying nor selling platinum at this time, but that's just me.

MoneyLA

Several factors are at work here, and I'm afraid they all add up to bad news for the economy in the long run.

the failure of the Senate to pass a financial aid package for the auto makers will increase recession worries and that's the number one problem for platinum now.

At the same time, recession worries will depress the US dollar, and with the dollar falling in value, gold prices will rise -- and stock prices will fall further adding to more selling of the dollar, and yes, higher prices for gold, and a further weakening of the economy.

You have a choice guys--- a stronger economy or higher gold prices. You can't have both.

Personally, I would sacrifice gold to keep the economy strong.

ProofCollection

<< <i>You have a choice guys--- a stronger economy or higher gold prices. You can't have both.

Personally, I would sacrifice gold to keep the economy strong. >>



Actually, you can have both, at least temporarily. The fed may take measures to devalue the dollar which actually would boost the economy and gold prices. This was done in 1934 I believe and did result in a nice little boost.

gecko109

How long before platinum jewelry losses the absurdly high premiums? I realize that PT jewelry uses .950 platinum and high end gold jewelry uses 18kt, but for 5 grams of each metal at the current spot prices of PT $807, and AU $811, we are looking at a metal value of PT of $123 and the AU at $98. So although the actual metal value is just a 25% difference, do you think the jewelry premiums will reflect something close to this? Or will jewelers continue to rip customers of PT at a rate of 250-400% higher than the AU counterparts?

Overdate

I think platinum has an excellent future, as long as it's dated 2008-W!

MoneyLA

Proof Collection... actually gold can't win long term in either a weak or strong economy.

For the long term....

in a weak economy gold loses its ability to be an inflation hedge and loses value from weak demand

in a strong economy, gold might see increased demand for jewelry and as an inflation hedge, but it will lose as the dollar gains value. remember gold is priced in dollars world wide, like oil.

I see gold as a "reactionary investment" meaning it reacts to current events, so you can't take "too long of an approach."

this "reactionary investment" fits my strategy to "play the trend" and hope for a short term burst in prices that you can latch on to.

Gecko... good question about platinum. the answer might be "once the jewelry makers use up their old expensive inventory of pt and replace it with lower priced pt." this could take weeks, months or years... you would have to ask a jewelry maker just how much inventory they keep on hand.

I dont know if jewelers use "just in time" strategies, but in a volatile metals market, that would make sense.

ProofCollection

<< <i>Proof Collection... actually gold can't win long term in either a weak or strong economy.

For the long term....

in a weak economy gold loses its ability to be an inflation hedge and loses value from weak demand

<< <i>

I see what you're saying, but look at what is perhaps the weakest economy, Zimbabwe:

"The official Herald newspaper said gold now fetched 2,5 million Zimbabwe dollars ($25,20) per gram, up from 1,2 million."

As of Dec 1.

If you were in Zimbabwe and had one once of gold, you doubled your money in the weakest economy on the planet. If you had your money parked in cash, you lost lots of purchasing power.

RedTiger

<< <i>...

I see gold as a "reactionary investment" meaning it reacts to current events, so you can't take "too long of an approach."
. >>



You are missing the bigger picture. Gold really counts when everything else goes to heck. The U. S. has yet to live through hyperinflation, or terrible famine, or other scenarios where gold may be the only boat left floating. Think long-long-long term, and it will give you more perspective. As one wag put it, in the long term we are all dead. The corollary could be that in the long term, all paper money (or all paper assets) will eventually go to zero value.

The U. S. dollar has had a longer run than most, but historically, something will break the string. Events such as a change in government, a lost war on home soil, hyperinflation, all can make the paper stuff, including stocks, bonds, deeds to real estate all worth virtually nothing. Americans have had a charmed life in that way for a very long time. At some point that luck may run out. I'm not predicting anything, but I am pointing out the short-sighted American-centric view many have of the long term.

When people talk about the long term returns of stocks, real estate, bonds, they mostly mean American assets and possible UK assets. In almost every other country, there have been economic dislocations that wiped the slate clean and the time frame usually isn't all that long between resets. In the extreme cases, only what a person could carry with them, in terms of gold or jewelry, were the assets that could be preserved from vast fortunes. Who knows when an economic reset is coming for America? Surely not you, or me. Best to have purchased some insurance before the storm hits. The insurance premium will be a LOT higher when the storm is big enough for all to see.

Overdate

Platinum is now higher than gold again.

The world as we know it has been saved!

sfs2002usa

Au or Pt Nice Swings
Au=811
Pt=807

6:21 am

MoneyLA

RedTiger wrote: " The U. S. has yet to live through hyperinflation, or terrible famine, or other scenarios where gold may be the only boat left floating. Think long-long-long term, and it will give you more perspective. "

Frankly, I dont think about that, and I can't think about that.

If the world went to hell like that, gold won't do me any good either.

Gold is only good as long as there are things to buy with it. If there is famine, or a complete breakdown of our systems, or if hyperinflation wipes out business and commerce, all the gold in the world won't do me or you any good.

And frankly, I wouldnt care, and I'd probably be dead anyway because I couldnt buy the medicines I need, or the food, or the electric power, and rioters would ransack my house and kill us all.

I need our system to continue. I do not need gold as a safety blanket to guard against a breakdown.

secondrepublic

<< <i> Frankly, I dont think about that, and I can't think about that.

If the world went to hell like that, gold won't do me any good either.

Gold is only good as long as there are things to buy with it. If there is famine, or a complete breakdown of our systems, or if hyperinflation wipes out business and commerce, all the gold in the world won't do me or you any good.

And frankly, I wouldnt care, and I'd probably be dead anyway because I couldnt buy the medicines I need, or the food, or the electric power, and rioters would ransack my house and kill us all.

I need our system to continue. I do not need gold as a safety blanket to guard against a breakdown. >>



I agree with MoneyLA. If that's the scenario you're worried about, gold is a lot less useful than the survivalist-type gear/food/weapons. I don't concern myself too much with that type of hypothetical situation and I don't base any investment decision on it.

I do think that gold has a lot to say in favor of making profits in a more modest (though still painful) inflation, like we saw in the late 1970s. Or protecting against a much higher level of currency wipeout, like happens in Argentina from time to time. Those possibilities, especially the 1970s style inflation, seem a lot more likely to me in the coming years, if we print/inflate our way out of the current mess. That's why I think gold has some good fundamentals.

ProofCollection

<< <i>Gold is only good as long as there are things to buy with it. If there is famine, or a complete breakdown of our systems, or if hyperinflation wipes out business and commerce, all the gold in the world won't do me or you any good.

And frankly, I wouldnt care, and I'd probably be dead anyway because I couldnt buy the medicines I need, or the food, or the electric power, and rioters would ransack my house and kill us all.

I need our system to continue. I do not need gold as a safety blanket to guard against a breakdown. >>



I beg to differ. Gold IS money, and has been since the beginning of time. In a collapse of the dollar, we revert to a barter society. In that situation, if you don't have what the other person needs, you're SOL. Unless you have gold, that is, because that will be about the only form of money or commodity that will ever be widely accepted.

If things went to hell and you were sitting on a huge storage tank of gasoline in your back yard, how much food & medicine would you really want to trade for? Once your immediate needs were met the only thing you'd ever consider for trade would be a commodity that's universially valued and desired, that won't decompose or rot, and has easy storage requirements. Try storing large amounts of corn, beef, apples, etc. Get too much and it's going to decay and become worthless.

roadrunner

Gold is only good as long as there are things to buy with it. If there is famine, or a complete breakdown of our systems, or if hyperinflation wipes out business and commerce, all the gold in the world won't do me or you any good.

This describes the Zimbabwe economy where 85% or so of people are out of work. But gold, even in this severe environment still buys goods and services in Zimbabwe while holding it's value hour to hour. One cannot say that about the Zimbabwe dollar. I don't see the USA getting to this extreme.

roadrunner

clouisejewelers

<< <i>How long before platinum jewelry losses the absurdly high premiums? I realize that PT jewelry uses .950 platinum and high end gold jewelry uses 18kt, but for 5 grams of each metal at the current spot prices of PT $807, and AU $811, we are looking at a metal value of PT of $123 and the AU at $98. So although the actual metal value is just a 25% difference, do you think the jewelry premiums will reflect something close to this? Or will jewelers continue to rip customers of PT at a rate of 250-400% higher than the AU counterparts? >>



It's not just the metal cost, fabrication costs are much higher with PT because it is much harder to work with. Also, most of my customers who want platinum jewelry want some designer brand that has huge markups. Blame the manufacturers for this one. At least they are not as bad as the crooks who melt silver into 1 gram bars and charge 10 times what they're really worth

notwilight

I have a few points for this thread:

1. Jewelery prices are all marketing, perception, folly, and sales techniques. the link between jewelry prices and metal prices is loose at best. it is emphasized in an upmarket by the sales team and mostly ignored in a down market.

2. Gold has decoupled from oil first and now from the other precious metals which are seen as more coupled with industrial demand. This is likely very bullish for gold.

3. I think roadrunner's prediction that $900 gold will be here much sooner than most think is right on.

4. I don't think platinum can stay long at these depressed levels. I just don't know how long "long" is. But moving some gold into platinum, when available, should be a smart diversification move.

--Jerry

Walmann

<< <i>Gold is only good as long as there are things to buy with it. If there is famine, or a complete breakdown of our systems, or if hyperinflation wipes out business and commerce, all the gold in the world won't do me or you any good.

This describes the Zimbabwe economy where 85% or so of people are out of work. But gold, even in this severe environment still buys goods and services in Zimbabwe while holding it's value hour to hour. One cannot say that about the Zimbabwe dollar. I don't see the USA getting to this extreme.

roadrunner >>



I can vouch for this. Lived in Sierra Leone W. Africa for two years in the mid 1980's, hyper inflation, shortage of goods. Gold (and diamonds) not only more than held their value, they did better than other currencies, for example, despite a world oil glut at that time, refined gas was going for over $30 US per gallon at one point (over 600 leones per gallon). However with gold or diamonds you could buy a 50 gallon drum of petrol for the equvialent of under a dollar per gallon.

RedTiger

<< <i>RedTiger wrote: " The U. S. has yet to live through hyperinflation, or terrible famine, or other scenarios where gold may be the only boat left floating. Think long-long-long term, and it will give you more perspective. "

Frankly, I dont think about that, and I can't think about that.

If the world went to hell like that, gold won't do me any good either.
...

I need our system to continue. I do not need gold as a safety blanket to guard against a breakdown. >>



Again, you have what I would characterize as an American-centric, short-sighted view point. Perhaps it is time to read some world history, or listen to stories from folks that have lived through upheavals in other countries. Again, in the vast majority of countries, economic calamities are the norm every 20, 50 or 100 years, not the exceptional case. In the new economy, what protected America in the past, the vast oceans, may not provide much shelter from the storm in the future.

The gold might do a person all the good in the world, as the gold might buy safe passage to somewhere else, when nothing else they have will be accepted as payment. Maybe not that person, then perhaps, their kids or grandkids. A single roll of gold eagles would buy a fresh start and a chance at life in a good many countries. Is there any logical reason not to buy that cheap insurance? Survivalist gear will only be useful only if a person can stay put. Historically, that is only a fraction of the time, when the train wreck becomes large enough to cover the entire country, or perhaps the entire continent.

MoneyLA

RedTiger, did you ever hear this phrase in reports about what life would be like after a nuclear war.... "the living will envy the dead."

well, if our world, as we know it, fell apart, I will wish I were dead.

In fact, I probably will be. Because if our world "fell apart," all of the gold in the world probably won't buy me the medicines I need after my kidney transplant, nor get me the medical care I will need as I get older.

so, why bother keeping gold for such "insurance."

after the kind of calamity you are talking about, count me out. take your gold and go on with it. the world will be yours.

MoneyLA

notwilight wrote: "3. I think roadrunner's prediction that $900 gold will be here much sooner than most think is right on."

$900 gold is meaningless. that only puts it back into the recent trading range. the trick is if gold breaks out to new highs... and that would be "something."

ProofCollection

<< <i>RedTiger, did you ever hear this phrase in reports about what life would be like after a nuclear war.... "the living will envy the dead."

well, if our world, as we know it, fell apart, I will wish I were dead.

In fact, I probably will be. Because if our world "fell apart," all of the gold in the world probably won't buy me the medicines I need after my kidney transplant, nor get me the medical care I will need as I get older.

so, why bother keeping gold for such "insurance."

after the kind of calamity you are talking about, count me out. take your gold and go on with it. the world will be yours. >>



That's an extremely selfish viewpoint, one that I don't this is shared by most on this board. Do you not have any family that you care about?

While total devastation may occur, there's just as much possibility for partial devastation. A single nuclear event in NY will affect life in LA, but not to the extent that the living will envy the dead. Calamaity can come is so many shapes and sizes that I think it is awful short sighted and presumtuous to assume that any disaster will lead to your death.



<< <i>$900 gold is meaningless. that only puts it back into the recent trading range. the trick is if gold breaks out to new highs... and that would be "something." >>



$900 is a nice $80 gain, almost 10%. Most people would be happy to earn 10% on their investments. And besides, you can't get to $1000 without passing through $900.

I concur with RR's prediction. I see at least $875 by the end of the year if not by the end of next week.

MoneyLA

proof collection does make a valid point... I was talking about myself, not my children, who are grown and on their own.

frankly, I would like this world to hold together for them as well.

my daughter needs her BMW, my son needs clubs for his gigs as a musician.

they wouldnt do well in a crisis either. LOL

anyway, happy holidays.

and I will think of gold as a way to make a profit, not as insurance for calamity. cheers.

roadrunner

I think of gold as a means to make a profit and to be insurance during calamities. We're in a finanical calamity right now, with the more severe problems yet to occur. I like the protection against the dollar going down, general deflation, and the potential for future strong inflation.

$900 gold is meaningless. that only puts it back into the recent trading range. the trick is if gold breaks out to new highs... and that would be "something."

Don't worry, besides $900 and $1000 gold.....you're also going to get to see $1050-$1200 gold a lot sooner than you think.

roadrunner

MoneyLA

roadrunner, when gold tops 1050 and when its at 1200 I will be there with you. but I am going to let you make the early profits.

renman95

$8,000 gold by 2012...imo.

OPA

<< <i>you're also going to get to see $1050-$1200 gold a lot sooner than you think. >>



Can you be a little bid more specific ...

A) In your lifetime.
10 years
C) Next year
D) within 6 month
E) by the e/o of Dec.