Many coin dealers don't know how to grade......

Manorcourtman

With the TPG's fully entrenched in the hobby now how many believe newer dealers are lacking serious grading skills? How many of you have seen older dealers who have no idea how to grade? I've seen local coin shows where I've questioned a dealers skills often. As further evidence of lack of skills I've bought many off brand slabs on eBay from experienced dealers that if they knew how to grade they'd have cracked out the coin and got them in the proper plastic and made seriously more $$ from the coin. I will venture a guess that up to one third of dealers can't grade......... PCGS and the likes have led to dealer apathy and skills are dropping hobby-wide........a sort of dumbing down is occuring.....your thoughts?

WithArrows

I think dealers often grade optimistically, i.e. calling a cleaned XF coin an AU.

I find the term "serious grading skills" sort of humorous. How serious do they really need to be?

zeebob

Hard to tell how much "dealer grading" is impacted by their desire to make money. Possession adds at least a point. That's one thing TPGs have going for them - disinterest.

Cladiator

Sure they know how to grade. The golden rule for many (no, not all) dealers for grading is to add a point when selling and subtract a point when buying.

Manorcourtman

<< <i>I think dealers often grade optimistically, i.e. calling a cleaned XF coin an AU.

I find the term "serious grading skills" sort of humorous. How serious do they really need to be? >>




In order make a good living as a dealer I offer that you need to know how to grade at or near PCGS/NGC quality grading abilities. Those are serious grading skills. No need to point out that they can be off at times thank you very much

WithArrows

<< <i>In order make a good living as a dealer I offer that you need to know how to grade at or near PCGS/NGC quality grading abilities. >>


Yes, that's true to make a good honest living. I like to think that dealers who don't have at least basic skills wouldn't be in business too long. Then again, if that were true this thread wouldn't exist

YaHa

I can grade eggs ok. Small is small, Medium is Medium and Large is Large or xlarge.

Finally someone knows how I feel about some dealers. They need to do some more homework and stop thinking they know everything about coins just because they deal in that hobby.

WinPitcher

I could care less if they know how to grade, my interest lies in if they know how to price the coins.


Steve

Bayard1908

<< <i>I could care less if they know how to grade, my interest lies in if they know how to price the coins. >>



They're even worse at that.

Connecticoin

Well, if you know how to grade and the dealer does not, who has the advantage?

Type2

I go into a BM time to time to buy Jefferson the one thing that kills me is the it's allmost full steps and gets a bump for that. In grading it's full step or not that is it.

jmj3esq

Kinda strange, but I have a coin dealer who has a habit of undergrading coins. Specifically I bought a Wisconsin Commem that he graded MS63. It was clearly better than that so I bought it. It now sits in a PCGS MS66 slab. I also bought a what he called a MS63 1937 D Buff Nickel tha tis also in a PCGS MS63 slab. This is clearly good for me.

Unknown

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lcoopie

It would seem to me that
there are 2 different skills or jobs involved:

dealing or buying and selling to make a profit
and
grading

It might be the exceptional person that can master both

of course, a dealer might know quite a bit about grading
but they probably are not expert at it

dorkkarl

maybe "grading" is a over rated "skill"

K S

Greeniejr

This begs another question. Is it whether the dealer knows how to grade, OR whether they know how to grade like the grading services do NOW. I work with Tom DeLorey AKA CaptHenway and he is probably one of the most knowledgeable graders and authenticators ever within our industry. His greatest fault which isn't really a fault at all is that he was among the top graders in the early days of the TPGs. That being said, he goes by the standards that were around back in the 80s. Does he know how to grade? Absolutely. Do the TPGs know how to grade? Sire. Are his grades similar to the grading service? Most of the time. The key for collectors is learning yourself or dealing with a dealer you know that can grade.

DeepCoin

Being a coin dealer means running a business. Part of that is both customer service and also customer relations. Being able to "sell" is yet another aspect to running a retail business. Notice I have not used the grading word yet. The coin business is quite diverse and few if any can claim expertise in every venue. It is certainly important to have basic grading skills, but it is also important to be able to bring repeat customers back to you.

Advanced grading skills are useful, but not necessarily required. Being able to make a deal where both parties are happy is much more important than ultimate grading skills. I think good people skills are at least if not more important than grading.

TPGs make it easier in many ways, yet more difficult in others. Having a specialty area is probably more important as you can become more expert in your area and also build a following who respect your knowledge. The fact that you have trouble grading $10 Indians does not mean you will not be a successful dealer.

IrishMike

Not exactly a news flash.

mrearlygold

True.

That's what creates an opportunity for some, a really bad day for others.

MrEureka

maybe "grading" is a over rated "skill"

Perhaps for those who don't care about money.

SeaEagleCoins

<< <i>maybe "grading" is a over rated "skill"

Perhaps for those that don't care about money. >>



OK everyone... straighten up and fly right... Aki is online and if you don't behave yer gona git a lickin'

tahoe98

<< <i>Sure they know how to grade. The golden rule for many (no, not all) dealers for grading is to add a point when selling and subtract a point when buying. >>




...........................

tahoe98

.............if only grading wasn't so damn subjective!!

shorecoll

I still get lost in market grading. I look at a bust half in 63, I see wear, other people see wear, but it's not wear it's rub, because it's certified as MS it can't be wear. Oww my head hurts. Now substitute early copper for bust half and repeat.

dizzyfoxx

Does grading criteria depend upon whether they're buying or selling?

Walkerguy21D

<< <i>if only grading wasn't so damn subjective!! >>



Bingo, Tahoe. I'm not sure ANYONE really knows how to grade, consistently, over time, in most series - including the folks at the TPG's. Some are better than others, where better means more consistent and in line with the prevailing 'market acceptable' appearance for the grade.
And as others have pointed out, herein lies the opportunities for dealers to make money, or lose money to those with more expertise in a given series or specialty.

Elcontador

Well, if you know how to grade and the dealer does not, who has the advantage?

For the material I collect, the pricing is often so ridiculous that the answer is none of the above. If a dealer buys a coin wrong and marks it up quite a bit, it really doesn't matter what the slab says or what the coin actually should grade. It's not priced reasonably.

Recent examples: I saw a nice for the grade 1907 PC 6 Liberty Nickel. Dealer wanted $4K for it; recent pricing for said coin in the same range of the grade continuum was between $2,500 and $2,800. Same thing, but for an 1892 Liberty Nickel. Pricing was between $5 and 6K. Dealer wanted $8,500. No thank you.

Unknown

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Type2

<< <i>

<< <i>Well, if you know how to grade and the dealer does not, who has the advantage?

For the material I collect, the pricing is often so ridiculous that the answer is none of the above. If a dealer buys a coin wrong and marks it up quite a bit, it really doesn't matter what the slab says or what the coin actually should grade. It's not priced reasonably.

Recent examples: I saw a nice for the grade 1907 PC 6 Liberty Nickel. Dealer wanted $4K for it; recent pricing for said coin in the same range of the grade continuum was between $2,500 and $2,800. Same thing, but for an 1892 Liberty Nickel. Pricing was between $5 and 6K. Dealer wanted $8,500. No thank you. >>



But the dealer is justified, you forgot to add what he wrote in the coins description:
XXXX 5C MS65 PCGS, Among the finest mint state 5c I have handled and I have bought and sold many. This coin was purchased raw many years ago by a noted local ole time collector and has been in his collection for a long time. He just sent it to PCGS for grading and offered me the coin. Solid even strike on virgin original surfaces. Medium even antique silvery-gray patina with brilliant purple highlights. This is the definition of what I term a perfect mint state ms66 but PCGS thought it was only a ms65. You will search for years to find its equal. >>

WoW I'll buy it.

garsmith

<< Many coin dealers don't know how to grade...... >>


And many coin graders don't know how to deal....

I guess everyone has to find their own niche in life.

COALPORTER

<< <i>

<< <i>Well, if you know how to grade and the dealer does not, who has the advantage?

For the material I collect, the pricing is often so ridiculous that the answer is none of the above. If a dealer buys a coin wrong and marks it up quite a bit, it really doesn't matter what the slab says or what the coin actually should grade. It's not priced reasonably.

Recent examples: I saw a nice for the grade 1907 PC 6 Liberty Nickel. Dealer wanted $4K for it; recent pricing for said coin in the same range of the grade continuum was between $2,500 and $2,800. Same thing, but for an 1892 Liberty Nickel. Pricing was between $5 and 6K. Dealer wanted $8,500. No thank you. >>



But the dealer is justified, you forgot to add what he wrote in the coins description:
XXXX 5C MS65 PCGS, Among the finest mint state 5c I have handled and I have bought and sold many. This coin was purchased raw many years ago by a noted local ole time collector and has been in his collection for a long time. He just sent it to PCGS for grading and offered me the coin. Solid even strike on virgin original surfaces. Medium even antique silvery-gray patina with brilliant purple highlights. This is the definition of what I term a perfect mint state ms66 but PCGS thought it was only a ms65. You will search for years to find its equal. >>



After reading that, i wouldn't give 4 cents for the coin.

291fifth

They seem to know how to grade when they are buying. They just forget how when they are selling.

Fairlaneman

Who gives a rip if a dealer knows how to grade? What counts is if they know how to price a coin. Seems like both might be lost arts now.

Ken

MikeInFL

"Many coin dealers don't know how to grade......"

...and even fewer collectors know how to grade.

roadrunner

I will venture a guess that up to one third of dealers can't grade......... PCGS and the likes have led to dealer apathy and skills are dropping hobby-wide........a sort of dumbing down is occuring.....your thoughts?

I would estimate that number at >90%. In particular most B&M shops and smaller dealers don't really need to grade like a TPG grader to make a nice living. But if they want all the money from a transaction they either need to know how to grade to that level or submit the coin for grading.

roadrunner

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krueger

<"They need to do some more homework and stop thinking they know everything about coins just because they deal in that hobby." >

Become a specialist, read, study. I don't share much of what I know. Use this to your advantage. You can know more then many dealers, as they say "the more you know the less you will pay". A few dealers who know me over the years get nervous when I walk into their B&M and look at a coin, they think I have found some rare variety or something and will rip them. I have done that, though its not very often, but it is fun. Usually they don't like to show me too much. I look elsewhere and act like columbo, letting them think they know everything.

Krueger

jdimmick

I make a majority of my bigger profits on the inability of other dealers grading skills, especially at smaller local shows other area shops. It is true that most dealers selling have a tendancy to over grade, overprice and offer cleaned and problem pieces at full price. In some cases they may not know that it is what they are offering but most cases they do. I have a freind who is a local dealer that buys problem coins all the time and sells them unknowingly to customers who dont know either and its becuase he cant grade or detect altered surfaces.

Just in the past two weeks. I have bought the following coins undergraded and scored:

1905-s $20 Liberty (dealer called it Au-58) PCGS graded it a 63 (much better date in 63)
1926 $10 Indian (dealer called it Au+) PCGS graded it MS-64
1875-cc Twenty cent (dealer called it Fine, (still raw but it will grade Xf-40to 45 easily when I submit it)

One of my best one's this year was :

1865 Two Cent Piece (dealer called it AU/BU, priced at 160.00) PCGS graded MS-65rd.


One thing that I will mention is that I also have ethics, if a customer comes into the shop or I am doing an appraisal I will give my honest opinion as to grade and explain the levels of MS grades and the significant price range. I still buy a little conservative, but if I truly feel a coin is a say a MS-64, I wont simply offer ms-60 money as most others do. And I can assure you it happens everyday , becuase I see it all the time.

HOWEVER: This rule is out when it comes to other dealers offering coins, if I see something undergraded in a case, I will pounce on it like no tomoorow. MY philosophy is, if you are in the business of buying and selling, then you'd best know what you are doing and its free game. Unlike: If you are a client or customer, then I feel that they are seeking you for your proffesional opinion and sound expertise in the field and you should be upstanding and ethical.

darktone

<< <i>HOWEVER: This rule is out when it comes to other dealers offering coins, if I see something undergraded in a case, I will pounce on it like no tomoorow. MY philosophy is, if you are in the business of buying and selling, then you'd best know what you are doing and its free game. Unlike: If you are a client or customer, then I feel that they are seeking you for your proffesional opinion and sound expertise in the field and you should be upstanding and ethical. >>




I LIKE this rule.

TwoSides2aCoin

As long as I have a loupe, the dealer only needs to price the coin.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>PCGS and the likes have led to dealer apathy and skills are dropping hobby-wide........a sort of dumbing down is occuring.....your thoughts? >>



I think that if it somehow makes you feel better to believe this, then go right ahead.

coppercoins

The fewer dealers who know how to grade is more money I can spend cherrying them. Last show I went to I bought $240 in undergraded early mintmarked wheat cents - resale value is over $700. I find it to be a pretty regular thing to go to a show and find a box of early Lincolns where half the box is undergraded up to two grades down.

I once bought a 1930S cent that graded MS65RB for $2....as an XF.

If you're going to go into business you need to know your business - cold. If you don't, you have no business being in business.

Manorcourtman

<< <i>The fewer dealers who know how to grade is more money I can spend cherrying them. Last show I went to I bought $240 in undergraded early mintmarked wheat cents - resale value is over $700. I find it to be a pretty regular thing to go to a show and find a box of early Lincolns where half the box is undergraded up to two grades down.

I once bought a 1930S cent that graded MS65RB for $2....as an XF.

If you're going to go into business you need to know your business - cold. If you don't, you have no business being in business. >>



Zactly!!

CertifiedGoldCoins

I remember Photograde, Brown & Dunn, sliders...... Now we have numbers. One coin has the same number as another, but they don't look the same. What's the price? That's all I need to know.

Those who rely only on a number risk their money, whether a collector or a dealer.

BillJones

<< <i>I think dealers often grade optimistically, i.e. calling a cleaned XF coin an AU. >>



This statement sums it up nicely, especially when dealers are trying to sell raw coins. I've found it almost impossilbe to buy 19th century coins raw in recent years. The usual game is to over grade the coin or ignore cleaning and then price the coin at a "discount" below the grade the dealer put on the coin. In the end it's nothing but a rip-off.

As for the assertion that successful dealers now don’t know how to grade coins because the third party services do if for them, that’s a load of bull. A dealer cannot survive in this business if he or she does not know how to grade coins. If you think that you can buy and sell coins blind grade-wise and expect to survive financially, you are in for a rude awakening. I knew of would be dealer who tried to go by what was on the slab for his business. His case was full over graded (“C” or “D” class) slabs. In the end he pulled out of all the shows on an “emergency basis.”

You have know how to grade coins if you are going to be a successful dealer.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Many coin dealers don't know how to grade...... >>

sad how much complaining there is about dealers & graders, when in reality, the problem is the COLLECTORS DON'T KNOW HOW TO COLLECT

like i said before, grading is over-rated

but COLLECTING is UNDER-RATED

K S