I think the proof Van Buren/Jackson will be the real winners. Much better looking, and most future collectors assembling "Liberty" sets will go for the proofs (IMO).
I'm currently on vacation in Amish Country. I told the wife we had to be back at the hotel by noon so I could place my order. Got it in at 12:03 for both the proof and unc. Only doing the Liberty subset. And now that is accomplished with one proof and one unc each with an extra Jefferson proof sitting in a PCGS PR70 slab :-) All the rest are PCGS 69s
My guess is it will be the Van Buren Unc as the lowest mintage. Unless the Mint only makes below 4200 uncirc for the Buchanans than the Buchanans will be the key.
Still in the stock and reserved mode. So much for the, "short struck' theory". As I posted in another thread I believe they will sell the maximum number of this coin.
35243... about 30 minutes ago and in stock. Looks like over 6000 orders. What is background?-do not know but if you say 500 and make average sale 2 coins then possible 11,000 coins sold. Wild guess though. If close though then we could see a waiting list about 8 months earlier than I originally thought. Then again someone might be trying to corner the market on the Bronze medals.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I was going to buy one today but when I saw the design, I passed. The depiction of him sitting at a desk with his cup of joe.....cartoonish artistry in contrast to the classical artistry of Liberty ruins the entire coin
for me. I understand you have to have this one to complete a liberty subset, but if you didn't need to, would you buy this one? JMHO
If you only had money to buy one...would you buy the unc or proof? Let me re-phrase the question, which do you think will appreciate more in 2-3 years?
<< <i>I was going to buy one today but when I saw the design, I passed. The depiction of him sitting at a desk with his cup of joe.....cartoonish artistry in contrast to the classical artistry of Liberty ruins the entire coin
for me. I understand you have to have this one to complete a liberty subset, but if you didn't need to would you buy this one? JMHO >>
Most don't care about the reverses.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
Really??? I thought that most collected for the beauty of the entire coin.... I believe that most people are really purchasing in bulk to realize a profit in the future at the expense of the subset collectors who get in
late or only want to purchase graded (70) samples. No problem with profit of course, that's what bulllion speculators do, but to say that most don't care about the reverses???? I could be wrong, but would
love to hear from the others on this forum. I still believe that this coin is amateurish in execution compared to the great coin designers of the past. Again, jmho..... if you're a "coin" collector the entire presentation
counts. If you're a bullion speculator, then you're right...it doesn't matter..... no offense to anyone here who might disagree with me. Love to hear from the great numistatists that reside on these boards...
<< <i>If you only had money to buy one...would you buy the unc or proof? Let me re-phrase the question, which do you think will appreciate more in 2-3 years? >>
A proof, definitely.
Collectors have made their preferences clear over the past few decades. Most of the regular gold and silver modern commems have a proof/unc ratio of 3/1 or 4/1, reflecting sales in the initial ordering periods when collectors could choose between the two. The famous 1997 Jackie Robinson $5 gold received initial orders for 24K proof and only 5K uncirculated coins, reflecting actual collector preferences before low-mintage fever took hold.
The ratio has been lower for recent First Spouses, but I think that is because the extremely low mintages of 2009/2010 have attracted speculators to the unc. coins. Rumor has it that 250 uncirculated Julia Tylers were purchased just before the sales cutoff - I doubt that there was a comparable scramble for Julia proofs.
The Buchanan coins could be interesting in this respect. Most board members who posted their buys online were purchasing equal numbers of uncirculated and proof specimens. I still expect the proofs to be more numerous, but the margin could be narrower than the recent 3 to 2 ratio of proofs to uncs. Maybe 8500 proofs to 6500 uncirculated.
Once the dust settles, I think a significant majority of present and future "Liberty" Spouse collectors will want the proofs, simply because the contrast makes the designs really stand out when compared to the visually flat uncirculated coins. This demand should result in higher prices for the proofs, despite their higher mintage. See the 2008-W Platinum Eagles for an example of where this price disparity is already starting to appear.
Really??? I thought that most collected for the beauty of the entire coin.... I believe that most people are really purchasing in bulk to realize a profit in the future at the expense of the subset collectors who get in
late or only want to purchase graded (70) samples. No problem with profit of course, that's what bulllion speculators do, but to say that most don't care about the reverses???? I could be wrong, but would
love to hear from the others on this forum. I still believe that this coin is amateurish in execution compared to the great coin designers of the past. Again, jmho..... if you're a "coin" collector the entire presentation
counts. If you're a bullion speculator, then you're right...it doesn't matter..... no offense to anyone here who might disagree with me. Love to hear from the great numistatists that reside on these boards...
>>
I don't mean to come across too unfriendly but it seems your comments are a bit elitist and snobby. It does seem to show up more often than I wish but makes for lively conversation at least. You say no problem with profit seeking BULLION SPECULATORS. Do you think profit seeking speculation goes on with classic coins also? I do. I may have violated this principle myself in the past but is it possible to just support the collecting preferences of others without feeling the need to cut them down if you don't?
p.s. You are probably right about caring about the reverses. Maybe I should have said that those who like the coin may find that the reverse is not as offensive as you found it and the obverse makes up for the reverse and anyway, not all collectible coins are artistic gems nor do they have to be in my book but it is a plus.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i> not all collectible coins are artistic gems nor do they have to be in my book but it is a plus. >>
I love the coins that are hated by most collectors, flippers and dealers because of ugly designs or unpopular themes. They can make for some unbelievable LOW mintage coins, which become highly sought after later in the aftermarket. I love collecting LOW,LOW mintage coins.
I just dont understand how somone buying/collecting coins could not be aware they could buy it for $200 less at the mint. Stirring up interest for soon to be flipping?
A lot of the guys buying PM on E bay (that I know) do it so that the Govt. doesn't know. These same guys think it is crazy to even consider buying from the US Mint as we will be back taxed on any gold bought through the Govt. among other things.
<< <i>A lot of the guys buying PM on E bay (that I know) do it so that the Govt. doesn't know. These same guys think it is crazy to even consider buying from the US Mint as we will be back taxed on any gold bought through the Govt. among other things. >>
For that to happen you have to believe that one hand of the fed government knows what the other hand is doing. Would that be a first?
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>A lot of the guys buying PM on E bay (that I know) do it so that the Govt. doesn't know. These same guys think it is crazy to even consider buying from the US Mint as we will be back taxed on any gold bought through the Govt. among other things. >>
Sounds like they are part of the aluminium hat wearing crowd.
<< <i>A lot of the guys buying PM on E bay (that I know) do it so that the Govt. doesn't know. These same guys think it is crazy to even consider buying from the US Mint as we will be back taxed on any gold bought through the Govt. among other things. >>
Sounds like they are part of the aluminium hat wearing crowd. >>
Maybe a good marketing idea would be to throw in a free aluminum hat.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I just cancelled my extra order before the cancel box is gone. >>
you cut it close, my buddy ordered around 3pm cancel boxes gone. >>
Why cancel? You think you will lose money on these? >>
The main reason I order extra is Eric's short struck theory. But it seems the Mint has enough capacity to meet the 15,000 demand.
Even though it will sell out quick, the dealers/flippers will also flood the bay quick with graded 70's.
I think money can still be made, but the margin will not be good enough for the hustle. >>
I am thinking the "sealed box" play may still net a few easy $$$. >>
I hope that you're right.
I was going to cancel my second order but had the same thought as you. If they aren't bringing any premium and I have to send it back, as we all know it takes FOREVER for the Mint to process CC returns.
Really??? I thought that most collected for the beauty of the entire coin.... I believe that most people are really purchasing in bulk to realize a profit in the future at the expense of the subset collectors who get in
late or only want to purchase graded (70) samples. No problem with profit of course, that's what bulllion speculators do, but to say that most don't care about the reverses???? I could be wrong, but would
love to hear from the others on this forum. I still believe that this coin is amateurish in execution compared to the great coin designers of the past. Again, jmho..... if you're a "coin" collector the entire presentation
counts. If you're a bullion speculator, then you're right...it doesn't matter..... no offense to anyone here who might disagree with me. Love to hear from the great numistatists that reside on these boards...
I love to speculate in Modern Bullion, but I don't do it "at the expense of" those who come late. They are always free to come late or not at all. After all, it may be about speculating when the coins first come out, but in the end it's about collecting. And my speculating doesn't preclude anyone else from doing what they want to do, even to a slight degree.
I care about the entire design. And yes, it does matter what the reverse looks like. I care about the reverses but not to the extent that an ugly reverse would keep me from buying a coin with a nice design on the obverse. It's a question of preferences, and judgements about marketability. So yes - the entire presentation matters as much for a good speculator as it does for a collector, in my opinion.
Some people do collect Modern Bullion, believe it or not. Actually we hear alot on this forum about how the Mint is usurping whole sections of the coin market that rightfully belong to classic coins, as if there were some big distinction (which there is not). In my view, these people are not being affected in any way by my preference for Modern Bullion, nor am I affected by what they do in their market for classic coinage. There is spillover in both directions and the lines are blurred in time anyway. Old or new, a nice coin is a nice coin - and that affects whether it becomes popular as a speculative buy or as the centerpiece in a serious collection.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
My two "Bucks" are being shipped today. That's fast. Okay, now it can sell out.
Now, I think a letter campaign to Congress is in order to repeal the Alice Paul/Chester Arthur coin. I'd like to see another Liberty and not the PC disconnected design idea of Alice Paul. Give her a commem if she's so deserving, not First Spouse status.
My two "Bucks" are being shipped today. That's fast. Okay, now it can sell out.
Now, I think a letter campaign to Congress is in order to repeal the Alice Paul/Chester Arthur coin. I'd like to see another Liberty and not the PC disconnected design idea of Alice Paul. Give her a commem if she's so deserving, not First Spouse status.
We want Liberty. >>
Give me a Liberty or give me...... well, maybe that is too extreme. Anyway, good luck in your campaign. Getting Congress to reverse a pc act is like telling a 500 pound gorilla to get out of your best recliner.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I am actually encouraged that they didn't sell out fast. What I'd like to see is for the initial strike to be just large enough to get us through to the end of the year. A quick emptying of the coffers could spur another striking and higher mintage numbers. If we can get to mid-November or so before they start running out, maybe we can end up with some decent final mintage numbers. Maybe not as low as Van Buren, but low.
A rising price of gold should help in keeping the numbers down, too...
I bought both classic and moderns and thought I would jump to the classic side, but I still prefer moderns. In fact, I sold most of my classics including a morgan proof cam 62 and a premodern PCGS DCAM 68 57 Franklin.I
BTW I just received my Buck Liberties this morning. Sept 8.
Comments
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Ray
MGySgt USMC(ret)
1979-2003
Aviation Radar Technician
Communications & Electronics Chief
<< <i>ONE DEALER HIT THEM UP FOR ABOUT 800 COINS ON ONE ORDER. >>
""ONE DEALER""
ok... we gotcha....
Box of 20
just because there are 3500 orders, doesnt mean they are all for these gold coins,
I have a small group of buddies (not dealers) that in aggregate went well over one hundred themselves.
but as I said before, no one has any idea right now about how many are available, how many have been ordered, etc.
for me. I understand you have to have this one to complete a liberty subset, but if you didn't need to, would you buy this one? JMHO
Overdate, BestMR, Weather11AM, TDEC1000, Carew4me, BigMarty58, Coinsarefun, Golfer72, UnknownComic, DMarks, JFoot13, ElKevvo, Truthteller, Duxbutt, TwoSides2aCoin, PerryHall, mhammerman, Papabear, Wingsrule, WTCG, MillerJW, Ciccio, zrlevin, dantheman984, tee135, jdimmick, gsa1fan, jmski52, SUMORADA, guitarwes, bstat1020, pitboss, meltdown, Schmitz7, 30AnvZ28, pragmaticgoat, wondercoin & MkMan123
<< <i>I was going to buy one today but when I saw the design, I passed. The depiction of him sitting at a desk with his cup of joe.....cartoonish artistry in contrast to the classical artistry of Liberty ruins the entire coin
for me. I understand you have to have this one to complete a liberty subset, but if you didn't need to would you buy this one? JMHO >>
Most don't care about the reverses.
Really??? I thought that most collected for the beauty of the entire coin.... I believe that most people are really purchasing in bulk to realize a profit in the future at the expense of the subset collectors who get in
late or only want to purchase graded (70) samples. No problem with profit of course, that's what bulllion speculators do, but to say that most don't care about the reverses???? I could be wrong, but would
love to hear from the others on this forum. I still believe that this coin is amateurish in execution compared to the great coin designers of the past. Again, jmho..... if you're a "coin" collector the entire presentation
counts. If you're a bullion speculator, then you're right...it doesn't matter..... no offense to anyone here who might disagree with me. Love to hear from the great numistatists that reside on these boards...
<< <i>If you only had money to buy one...would you buy the unc or proof? Let me re-phrase the question, which do you think will appreciate more in 2-3 years?
A proof, definitely.
Collectors have made their preferences clear over the past few decades. Most of the regular gold and silver modern commems have a proof/unc ratio of 3/1 or 4/1, reflecting sales in the initial ordering periods when collectors could choose between the two. The famous 1997 Jackie Robinson $5 gold received initial orders for 24K proof and only 5K uncirculated coins, reflecting actual collector preferences before low-mintage fever took hold.
The ratio has been lower for recent First Spouses, but I think that is because the extremely low mintages of 2009/2010 have attracted speculators to the unc. coins. Rumor has it that 250 uncirculated Julia Tylers were purchased just before the sales cutoff - I doubt that there was a comparable scramble for Julia proofs.
The Buchanan coins could be interesting in this respect. Most board members who posted their buys online were purchasing equal numbers of uncirculated and proof specimens. I still expect the proofs to be more numerous, but the margin could be narrower than the recent 3 to 2 ratio of proofs to uncs. Maybe 8500 proofs to 6500 uncirculated.
Once the dust settles, I think a significant majority of present and future "Liberty" Spouse collectors will want the proofs, simply because the contrast makes the designs really stand out when compared to the visually flat uncirculated coins. This demand should result in higher prices for the proofs, despite their higher mintage. See the 2008-W Platinum Eagles for an example of where this price disparity is already starting to appear.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Ray
MGySgt USMC(ret)
1979-2003
Aviation Radar Technician
Communications & Electronics Chief
<< <i>Where can a person find the production numbers? Couldn't find anything on the mint website. >>
mintstats
You'll find recent ones here.
The cancel box is gone on my order of Proofs, order time 12:01.
My Unc, on a different order, still has the box, 12:02.
about 110 order number difference between the two.
<< <i>The cancel box is gone on my order of Proofs, order time 12:01.
My Unc, on a different order, still has the box, 12:02.
about 110 order number difference between the two. >>
My one and only order also has the cancel box gone. Placed at ~12:01.
<< <i>I just cancelled my extra order before the cancel box is gone. >>
you cut it close, my buddy ordered around 3pm cancel boxes gone.
<< <i>
<< <i>I just cancelled my extra order before the cancel box is gone. >>
you cut it close, my buddy ordered around 3pm cancel boxes gone. >>
Why cancel? You think you will lose money on these?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just cancelled my extra order before the cancel box is gone. >>
you cut it close, my buddy ordered around 3pm cancel boxes gone. >>
Why cancel? You think you will lose money on these? >>
The main reason I order extra is Eric's short struck theory. But it seems the Mint has enough capacity to meet the 15,000 demand.
Even though it will sell out quick, the dealers/flippers will also flood the bay quick with graded 70's.
I think money can still be made, but the margin will not be good enough for the hustle.
<< <i>I just cancelled my extra order before the cancel box is gone. >>
I have canceled items in the past, after the box was gone, by calling the 1 800 number.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just cancelled my extra order before the cancel box is gone. >>
you cut it close, my buddy ordered around 3pm cancel boxes gone. >>
Why cancel? You think you will lose money on these? >>
The main reason I order extra is Eric's short struck theory. But it seems the Mint has enough capacity to meet the 15,000 demand.
Even though it will sell out quick, the dealers/flippers will also flood the bay quick with graded 70's.
I think money can still be made, but the margin will not be good enough for the hustle. >>
I am thinking the "sealed box" play may still net a few easy $$$.
<< <i>
<< <i>Where can a person find the production numbers? Couldn't find anything on the mint website. >>
mintstats
You'll find recent ones here. >>
Thanks
Ray
MGySgt USMC(ret)
1979-2003
Aviation Radar Technician
Communications & Electronics Chief
<< <i>"most don't care about the reverses..."
Really??? I thought that most collected for the beauty of the entire coin.... I believe that most people are really purchasing in bulk to realize a profit in the future at the expense of the subset collectors who get in
late or only want to purchase graded (70) samples. No problem with profit of course, that's what bulllion speculators do, but to say that most don't care about the reverses???? I could be wrong, but would
love to hear from the others on this forum. I still believe that this coin is amateurish in execution compared to the great coin designers of the past. Again, jmho..... if you're a "coin" collector the entire presentation
counts. If you're a bullion speculator, then you're right...it doesn't matter..... no offense to anyone here who might disagree with me. Love to hear from the great numistatists that reside on these boards...
I don't mean to come across too unfriendly but it seems your comments are a bit elitist and snobby. It does seem to show up more often than I wish but makes for lively conversation at least. You say no problem with profit seeking BULLION SPECULATORS. Do you think profit seeking speculation goes on with classic coins also? I do. I may have violated this principle myself in the past but is it possible to just support the collecting preferences of others without feeling the need to cut them down if you don't?
p.s. You are probably right about caring about the reverses. Maybe I should have said that those who like the coin may find that the reverse is not as offensive as you found it and the obverse makes up for the reverse and anyway, not all collectible coins are artistic gems nor do they have to be in my book but it is a plus.
<< <i> not all collectible coins are artistic gems nor do they have to be in my book but it is a plus. >>
I love the coins that are hated by most collectors, flippers and dealers because of ugly designs or unpopular themes. They can make for some unbelievable LOW mintage coins, which become highly sought after later in the aftermarket. I love collecting LOW,LOW mintage coins.
<< <i>raw unc. sold for $936.95 >>
I just dont understand how somone buying/collecting coins could not be aware they could buy it for $200 less at the mint. Stirring up interest for soon to be flipping?
the platinums just have me excited.
I'm still in the no sell out camp and my plans are built around that.
<< <i>A lot of the guys buying PM on E bay (that I know) do it so that the Govt. doesn't know. These same guys think it is crazy to even consider buying from the US Mint as we will be back taxed on any gold bought through the Govt. among other things. >>
For that to happen you have to believe that one hand of the fed government knows what the other hand is doing. Would that be a first?
<< <i>A lot of the guys buying PM on E bay (that I know) do it so that the Govt. doesn't know. These same guys think it is crazy to even consider buying from the US Mint as we will be back taxed on any gold bought through the Govt. among other things. >>
Sounds like they are part of the aluminium hat wearing crowd.
<< <i>
<< <i>A lot of the guys buying PM on E bay (that I know) do it so that the Govt. doesn't know. These same guys think it is crazy to even consider buying from the US Mint as we will be back taxed on any gold bought through the Govt. among other things. >>
Sounds like they are part of the aluminium hat wearing crowd. >>
Maybe a good marketing idea would be to throw in a free aluminum hat.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just cancelled my extra order before the cancel box is gone. >>
you cut it close, my buddy ordered around 3pm cancel boxes gone. >>
Why cancel? You think you will lose money on these? >>
The main reason I order extra is Eric's short struck theory. But it seems the Mint has enough capacity to meet the 15,000 demand.
Even though it will sell out quick, the dealers/flippers will also flood the bay quick with graded 70's.
I think money can still be made, but the margin will not be good enough for the hustle. >>
I am thinking the "sealed box" play may still net a few easy $$$. >>
I hope that you're right.
I was going to cancel my second order but had the same thought as you. If they aren't bringing any premium and I have to send it back, as we all know it takes FOREVER for the Mint to process CC returns.
Really??? I thought that most collected for the beauty of the entire coin.... I believe that most people are really purchasing in bulk to realize a profit in the future at the expense of the subset collectors who get in
late or only want to purchase graded (70) samples. No problem with profit of course, that's what bulllion speculators do, but to say that most don't care about the reverses???? I could be wrong, but would
love to hear from the others on this forum. I still believe that this coin is amateurish in execution compared to the great coin designers of the past. Again, jmho..... if you're a "coin" collector the entire presentation
counts. If you're a bullion speculator, then you're right...it doesn't matter..... no offense to anyone here who might disagree with me. Love to hear from the great numistatists that reside on these boards...
I love to speculate in Modern Bullion, but I don't do it "at the expense of" those who come late. They are always free to come late or not at all. After all, it may be about speculating when the coins first come out, but in the end it's about collecting. And my speculating doesn't preclude anyone else from doing what they want to do, even to a slight degree.
I care about the entire design. And yes, it does matter what the reverse looks like. I care about the reverses but not to the extent that an ugly reverse would keep me from buying a coin with a nice design on the obverse. It's a question of preferences, and judgements about marketability. So yes - the entire presentation matters as much for a good speculator as it does for a collector, in my opinion.
Some people do collect Modern Bullion, believe it or not. Actually we hear alot on this forum about how the Mint is usurping whole sections of the coin market that rightfully belong to classic coins, as if there were some big distinction (which there is not). In my view, these people are not being affected in any way by my preference for Modern Bullion, nor am I affected by what they do in their market for classic coinage. There is spillover in both directions and the lines are blurred in time anyway. Old or new, a nice coin is a nice coin - and that affects whether it becomes popular as a speculative buy or as the centerpiece in a serious collection.
I knew it would happen.
My two "Bucks" are being shipped today. That's fast. Okay, now it can sell out.
Now, I think a letter campaign to Congress is in order to repeal the Alice Paul/Chester Arthur coin. I'd like to see another Liberty and not the PC disconnected design idea of Alice Paul. Give her a commem if she's so deserving, not First Spouse status.
We want Liberty.
<< <i>What the ""Buck"!
My two "Bucks" are being shipped today. That's fast. Okay, now it can sell out.
Now, I think a letter campaign to Congress is in order to repeal the Alice Paul/Chester Arthur coin. I'd like to see another Liberty and not the PC disconnected design idea of Alice Paul. Give her a commem if she's so deserving, not First Spouse status.
We want Liberty. >>
Give me a Liberty or give me...... well, maybe that is too extreme. Anyway, good luck in your campaign. Getting Congress to reverse a pc act is like telling a 500 pound gorilla to get out of your best recliner.
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>How is the mint shipping? (ups,ect) >>
Mine came UPS,
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
that would indicate a price increase if my calculations are correct.
A rising price of gold should help in keeping the numbers down, too...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
BTW I just received my Buck Liberties this morning. Sept 8.
Box of 20
<< <i>using both the am and pm fixings, the average is over $1250 and the wed. pm fix is outside the current range.
that would indicate a price increase if my calculations are correct. >>
Price would go up on thursday?
I feel like I am the only 12:01 order that didnt get shipped yesterday.