Indeed, if you look the price list on these, US Mint, the 1 oz unc buffalo is $968.88 in the "celebration" packaging but $999.95 in the regular packaging -- that's a $30+ premium for the box.
I believe the $30+ premium is for the "W" mint mark - my understanding is that the "celebration" coin is a regular 1-ounce gold Buffalo bullion coin.
<< <i>I am confused by the mint's intentions. Is the mint planning to sell out what stock it has of buffalos starting tonight or are they still producing them until June of 2009 at the reset pricing? What is the consensus here?
Here's what Dave Harper reported on his blog:
Mint Deputy Director Andrew D. Brunhart says of the clearance sale, “It will be limited time. First come, first served. No household limits. All sales will be final. If you’re wondering, we won’t exceed any Mint limits.”
The sale will conclude at 5 p.m. Dec. 19, but some products are likely to be gone well before then.
Of those that don’ sell, Brunhart says, “We’re going to be doing a significant detrashing and melting (of) the products that do not sell by Dec. 19. Those products will be immediately broken down and sent to the melter.”
The clearance sale is part of a major re-evaluation of the Mint’s product line. Brunhart says the product offerings will be reduced from more than 550 available in 2008 to roughly 200.
Leftover 2008 products will stay on sale until June, when they will get the same detrashing and melting treatment.
“From now on at the end of each year, we will examine our portfolio to make sure the warehouse is not stuffed with products they (Mint customers) don’t want,” Brunhart says.
“We’re undergoing a significant renewal of our numismatic portfolio in 2009. We have too many products. We have heard loud and clear from our collecting community. We are responding to that. We will be focusing our resources on key products (with the) broadest appeal.
here's my interpretation
looking at this report of quotes from Brunhart, coupled with the 2 press releases, it's my belief that the clearance sale relates only to the long list of junk they have in inventory (old proof sets, unc sets, quarter bags, etc.)
I think the recent repricing of bullion issues was just that- a repricing. Nothing to do with the clearance sale, other than the fact they are obviously trying to move inventory.
I think 2 detrashing/melt dates are set. One, December 19, is for the clearance items. The second, June 2009, is for the discontinued coins (buffalo golds, platinums, etc.)
I think that the discontinued lines are probably not going to continue to be struck, only because it doesn't make much sense to do so if the endgame is to melt these. I very much doubt that any additional platinums will be struck. I'm less certain with the gold buffalos ONLY because those did not have a preset mintage cap, and it seems possible to me that they could have unstruck .999 fine blanks ready to go. However, even if that were true, if minting more would require them to obtain additional packaging items (these boxes are pretty fancy), than my guess is that they won't bother.
I think that the discontinued bullion coins will continue to be sold until the current inventory is gone or June 2009, whichever comes first. If any are left come June 2009, those will be melted. >>
Well thought out response. Thanks. I didn't consider the packaging for the Buffs. That could be a factor since they are quit nice an probably costly. I doubt they would just want to trash them if they had them. Question is- how many boxes do they have in stock. Any mint spies out there?
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
How about between returning the set or returning some 1/4 OZ's ?
You mean if you had to choose between the two?
That's a tough call, especially since the $25 sales numbers are higher than expected, but people seem to think they might be adjusted down.
On the one hand, it's probably easier to sell quarters purchased at $320 a pop for a higher percentage over the issue price. Larger, more expensive coins, tend to be harder to resell.
I'm kind of right down the middle on this one; an argument could be made either way.
<< <i>I am confused by the mint's intentions. Is the mint planning to sell out what stock it has of buffalos starting tonight or are they still producing them until June of 2009 at the reset pricing? What is the consensus here?
Here's what Dave Harper reported on his blog:
Mint Deputy Director Andrew D. Brunhart says of the clearance sale, “It will be limited time. First come, first served. No household limits. All sales will be final. If you’re wondering, we won’t exceed any Mint limits.”
The sale will conclude at 5 p.m. Dec. 19, but some products are likely to be gone well before then.
Of those that don’ sell, Brunhart says, “We’re going to be doing a significant detrashing and melting (of) the products that do not sell by Dec. 19. Those products will be immediately broken down and sent to the melter.”
The clearance sale is part of a major re-evaluation of the Mint’s product line. Brunhart says the product offerings will be reduced from more than 550 available in 2008 to roughly 200.
Leftover 2008 products will stay on sale until June, when they will get the same detrashing and melting treatment.
“From now on at the end of each year, we will examine our portfolio to make sure the warehouse is not stuffed with products they (Mint customers) don’t want,” Brunhart says.
“We’re undergoing a significant renewal of our numismatic portfolio in 2009. We have too many products. We have heard loud and clear from our collecting community. We are responding to that. We will be focusing our resources on key products (with the) broadest appeal.
here's my interpretation
looking at this report of quotes from Brunhart, coupled with the 2 press releases, it's my belief that the clearance sale relates only to the long list of junk they have in inventory (old proof sets, unc sets, quarter bags, etc.)
I think the recent repricing of bullion issues was just that- a repricing. Nothing to do with the clearance sale, other than the fact they are obviously trying to move inventory.
I think 2 detrashing/melt dates are set. One, December 19, is for the clearance items. The second, June 2009, is for the discontinued coins (buffalo golds, platinums, etc.)
I think that the discontinued lines are probably not going to continue to be struck, only because it doesn't make much sense to do so if the endgame is to melt these. I very much doubt that any additional platinums will be struck. I'm less certain with the gold buffalos ONLY because those did not have a preset mintage cap, and it seems possible to me that they could have unstruck .999 fine blanks ready to go. However, even if that were true, if minting more would require them to obtain additional packaging items (these boxes are pretty fancy), than my guess is that they won't bother.
I think that the discontinued bullion coins will continue to be sold until the current inventory is gone or June 2009, whichever comes first. If any are left come June 2009, those will be melted. >>
Well thought out response. Thanks. I didn't consider the packaging for the Buffs. That could be a factor since they are quit nice an probably costly. I doubt they would just want to trash them if they had them. Question is- how many boxes do they have in stock. Any mint spies out there? >>
Also, the 1/10 oz unc buff is gone. If they were going to continue to mint these, wouldn't they have just put them on backorder and fired up the presses?
<< <i>I just received some of the coins I ordered Monday. This is my first gold buffalo purchase. The packaging is over the top; very nicely done, certainly explains a lot of the premium over melt required on these coins. Indeed, if you look the price list on these, US Mint, the 1 oz unc buffalo is $968.88 in the "celebration" packaging but $999.95 in the regular packaging -- that's a $30+ premium for the box. >>
The buffalo that is in the Celebration packaging is a non-W regular bullion coin, not the "collectible W-mintmarked" version. The thing I find surprising about the Celebration is that the Mint has sold over 20,000 of them.
<< <i>I just received some of the coins I ordered Monday. This is my first gold buffalo purchase. The packaging is over the top; very nicely done, certainly explains a lot of the premium over melt required on these coins. Indeed, if you look the price list on these, US Mint, the 1 oz unc buffalo is $968.88 in the "celebration" packaging but $999.95 in the regular packaging -- that's a $30+ premium for the box. >>
The buffalo that is in the Celebration packaging is a non-W regular bullion coin, not the "collectible W-mintmarked" version. The thing I find surprising about the Celebration is that the Mint has sold over 20,000 of them. >>
<< <i>From the Clearance list, I see only one item -- 2004 US Mint Set. This retails for $40. Other than that, the US Mint will probably have to really lower the prices to move the items. >>
Not for long, prices will crash on these just like the did for the Ocean In View coin covers that were re-offered. The funny thing is that the Ocean in View coin covers used to bring in over $100 on the bay. when they were re-released, the price crashed down to the level of the other covers in the series. but they mintage only went up a couple of hundred units. they are still by far the lowest minatge in the nickel coin cover series.
Its all about perception. if you get these 2004 mint sets, don't sit on them. >>
Now I am trying to think of a way to get rid of my 04 mint set.
<< <i>I am confused by the mint's intentions. Is the mint planning to sell out what stock it has of buffalos starting tonight or are they still producing them until June of 2009 at the reset pricing? What is the consensus here?
Also, the 1/10 oz unc buff is gone. If they were going to continue to mint these, wouldn't they have just put them on backorder and fired up the presses? >>
This may be over analysis but the latest sales numbers I have for the 1/10th unc. buff is about 12K (not counting the 4-coin set). Now when the mint sets limits on the fractionals they usually seem to allow double what the quarters and halves are for the 1/10ths so if indeed they are sold out of the 1/10ths at somewhere near 12-14K then maybe they purchased packaging for the other fractionals at near 7K and that may be the sellout point. That is probably overthinking but it is food for thought.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest modern commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think?
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
1915-S PANAMA PACIFIC $50 GOLD COMMEMORATIVES Varieties (2): Octagonal - net mintage of 645 coins Round - net mintage of 483 coins
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
1915-S PANAMA PACIFIC $50 GOLD COMMEMORATIVES Varieties (2): Octagonal - net mintage of 645 coins Round - net mintage of 483 coins >>
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest modern commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
They are also great buy price wise. Platinum earlier this year was at 2,000 oz. This will be a good investment either way long term.
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest modern commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
They are also great buy price wise. Platinum earlier this year was at 2,000 oz. This will be a good investment either way long term. >>
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest modern commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
They are also great buy price wise. Platinum earlier this year was at 2,000 oz. This will be a good investment either way long term. >>
>>
oops ... brain fart ...
but only if the collector base for the unc. Plats increase & I don't see that happening. (expensive silver looking coin)
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
I just put in an order for some 1/4 APE's and 1/4 Buffs. My order went "in stock and reserved" and then on the order status page: Your order request has been suspended.
A word of WARNING! Those of you that have been around awhile will remember the Mint's reopening sales of previous "sold out" proof sets including 1999 a few years ago. They soon had to stop selling them as they were spotted. With a no return policy you are really taking a chance of purchasing junk.
but only if the collector base for the unc. Plats increase & I don't see that happening. (expensive silver looking coin)
I disagree.
For one thing, I give collectors a little more credit than selecting coins based on color (silver looking = silver).
Clad coins are silver looking also, but the Mint manages to do a pretty good business in silver proof sets each year, so at least some collectors are able to distinguish between color and metal content.
Second, it's very true that the platinum collector base is small - if it wasn't, there's no way we'd see these coins have the extremely low mintages they do.
The Pan Pacific golds weren't widely purchased when issued, which is why they are the rarity they are today. It's basically a requirement for scarce coins to be unpopular and not widely collected at the outset.
The Platinum unc-w coins initially took off on the secondary market in 2006 primarily based on the ultralow mintages. 2007 saw higher mintages (still extremely low by modern standards), and they didn't do as well on the secondary market. The game at the time was aim for the lowest mintage coin. By 2008, people learned to focus solely on sales numbers. If coins looked like they might be lower than 2006, back up the truck. If they looked like they would be higher than 2007, avoid at all cost. Maybe 2009 would bring even lower mintages. Maybe platinum would spike in 2010, or something else would happen, and mintages would go even lower. There's been a LOT of uncertainty among the few people following these coins.
A few weeks ago, I would have suggested returning $25 unc-w platinums if the mintages went over 4,000 --- primarily because we've seen a pullback on 2006-ws, and 2007-ws have largely tracked spot, so there wouldn't appear to be much upside in a coin with that mintage. Maybe 2009 would be a really low mintage, which also would keep 2008s from being profitable.
Now that the Mint has announced it's discontinuing the unc-w platinums, it's a new day, and time to re-examine how these are approached.
1. No more coins made. No more coins made. No more coins made.
What does that mean? 2006, 2007, 2008. That's it.
2. A discrete 3 coin set
These coins are a great short set. 3 coins. That's it. A collector with ADHD could grasp it. As an added bonus, they have a design-- Foundations of Democracy-- Legislative, Executive, Judicial - that actually has historic relevance to all of us.
3. Relative scarcity
sure, these aren't "rare" in the way a 1913 Liberty Nickel is rare. But in terms of moderns, coins with mintages of 5,000 are scarce. Any coins with mintages that low have done very well. Jackie Robinson $5 gold unc. is a perfect example. Mintage of about 5,000, and no one cared at the time. Now they sell for.... I don't track them, but it's something over $2,000. The same coin, in proof, is much less expensive. People pay the premium because of the low mintage. Yes, platinums are not widely collected. Gold is more widely collected, and for silver coins, 25,000 can be a low mintage. But the numbers do mean something, and all but one (the 2007 $10) have mintages under 5,000 -- in some cases as low as 2,500.
4. so what?
Some people might not care about this. Certainly a lot of classic collectors look down on these platinum widgets as a speculators' game. But these are nicely designed, high bullion content coins, with some of the lowest mintages we've seen in 100 years, that can be collected in a discrete 3 coin set and AT MOST about 3,000 people can have a set of any one denomination (about 3,500 for the $10s, and about 2,500 for the $50s). 3,000.
Platinum doesn't NEED to be as widely collected as silver dollars. It just needs 3,000 collectors to say "hey, this looks like a nice series -- it's high value, low mintage, and is priced at a relatively small multiple to melt."
3,000. How many U.S. coin collectors are there? I'm not sure. Proof sets today easily sell about 2,000,000. American Eagle silver and gold coin sales suggest a population of a couple hundred thousand. Just 1% of that population would easily swallow up all of these coins. They don't need a huge base. They don't even need 100 people in each state.
Ok, so i try to buy a 4-piece Buffalo PR set. When I am finished, I go to my order page and it shows them as "in stock" but at the top it indicates "Order Status: Your order request has been suspended."
I suggest that you call the US Mint about your order. I think your order may be suspended because of the high value of the set. If you have never ordered before or you are shipping to an address other than the billing address of your credit card, you may need to complete a form from the US Mint. They are doing this to prevent fraud. They had me do this when I ordered a Gold Spouse coin last year. Hope this helps.
I suggest that you call the US Mint about your order. I think your order may be suspended because of the high value of the set. If you have never ordered before or you are shipping to an address other than the billing address of your credit card, you may need to complete a form from the US Mint. They are doing this to prevent fraud. They had me do this when I ordered a Gold Spouse coin last year. Hope this helps. >>
Good advice but I don't think that applies here. I order frequently without this problem and have not changed anything lately.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
but only if the collector base for the unc. Plats increase & I don't see that happening. (expensive silver looking coin)
I agree with what nycounsel said. But also, as I think about it I do think that the chips have fallen in collectors' favor.
If it had been my decision, I'd have kept 4 denominations of changing reverse designs in a single type of finish, preferably the original uncs which was a hybrid of proof & unc. And I'd have made them available directly from the Mint at reasonable premiums as a bullion issue with a restrictive return policy, while eliminating the dealer network for Plats altogether.
However, we get what we get from the Mint. The Program we are left with doesn't kill the series, so it leaves open the possiblility of picking up more collectors over time either via the 1 oz. coins, or even through the fractional bullion issues.
Anyone who now embarks on any of the different facets of this series will find it challenging. Some who start with 1/10th oz coins might be tempted to progress into 1/4th oz coins. Some who collect regular uncs might be drawn into the proofs, as before. There are 5 different finish types to consider as subsets within the series, so there are already several different ways to approach a collection within the series, in terms of the varieties.
I've been a bit surprised that the earlier date, higher mintage coins being offered on ebay are still carrying hefty premiums in spite of the price crash in bullion platinum. Does that reflect stubborn-ness on the part of these sellers, or does it portend a growing demand for the older issues that we hadn't noticed during all the market turmoil lately?
Now that the treadmill has been slowed down considerably, we might see more people drawn to the collectible aspects of the Plats. It won't be a rapidly-moving target now. Anyone with collector tendencies will find it easier to focus on, and to budget for a specific segment of the series.
Home at last.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
With the mint discontinuing much of their modern program this year I wonder how this will affect the TPG grading companies. An awful lot of business has been generated with the modern programs the last decade with much of the Classic market coins that are worth grading already in holders. I would think this would hurt the TPG's bottom line unless they evolve their business models.
One thing I'd like to see them do is grade the 4 piece sets in the OGP much like NGC does with the GSA's. It will be interesting to see what impact this has on the grading market and it's stock.
<< <i>So, what time is this sale suppose to start? >>
Sale starts at midnight EST. Internet orders only. All sales final. Items going back to 2004. US Mint website should be back up at about 8:30PM EST. Prices on bullion coins were adjusted yesterday and will not change for tonights event.
That is all according to a US Mint rep I spoke with.
<< <i>So, what time is this sale suppose to start? >>
Sale starts at midnight EST. Internet orders only. All sales final. Items going back to 2004. US Mint website should be back up at about 8:30PM EST. Prices on bullion coins were adjusted yesterday and will not change for tonights event.
That is all according to a US Mint rep I spoke with. >>
items going back to 2001 actually. you forgot the kennedys
they should sell those for face rather than melt them.
<< <i>Ok, so i try to buy a 4-piece Buffalo PR set. When I am finished, I go to my order page and it shows them as "in stock" but at the top it indicates "Order Status: Your order request has been suspended."
Any ideas? >>
Well, I just got 2 receipts for the two orders I placed, one using the quick check out and the other the normal checkout. Hum, i only wanted one but i was thinking the quick checkout may have had a problem.
<< <i>Mint on-line order website is down for "maintenance". This could be interesting if there are real price cuts on the bullion products..... >>
i don`t think bullion is included in the "sale". the bullion will be available if not already sold out. some of the bullion went up in price yesterday.
<< <i>Ok, so i try to buy a 4-piece Buffalo PR set. When I am finished, I go to my order page and it shows them as "in stock" but at the top it indicates "Order Status: Your order request has been suspended."
Any ideas? >>
Well, I just got 2 receipts for the two orders I placed, one using the quick check out and the other the normal checkout. Hum, i only wanted one but i was thinking the quick checkout may have had a problem. >>
i don`t think bullion is included in the "sale". the bullion will be available if not already sold out. some of the bullion went up in price yesterday.
Excellent point. It will be interesting to see if any items not included in the original list are part of the sale.
Looking at the list there are going to have to be some smoking good deals, like face for the bags and rolls to make me pull the trigger. Most of that stuff is still in inventory for a good reason - yawn
well, nothing very interesting at the clearance sale--
The only surprise is how boring this all looks; as far as I can tell, none of this stuff is actually at a discount to what the initial issue price was! Last Chance Sale... zzzz
Comments
I believe the $30+ premium is for the "W" mint mark - my understanding is that the "celebration" coin is a regular 1-ounce gold Buffalo bullion coin.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>I am confused by the mint's intentions. Is the mint planning to sell out what stock it has of buffalos starting tonight or are they still producing them until June of 2009 at the reset pricing? What is the consensus here?
Here's what Dave Harper reported on his blog:
Mint Deputy Director Andrew D. Brunhart says of the clearance sale, “It will be limited time. First come, first served. No household limits. All sales will be final. If you’re wondering, we won’t exceed any Mint limits.”
The sale will conclude at 5 p.m. Dec. 19, but some products are likely to be gone well before then.
Of those that don’ sell, Brunhart says, “We’re going to be doing a significant detrashing and melting (of) the products that do not sell by Dec. 19. Those products will be immediately broken down and sent to the melter.”
The clearance sale is part of a major re-evaluation of the Mint’s product line. Brunhart says the product offerings will be reduced from more than 550 available in 2008 to roughly 200.
Leftover 2008 products will stay on sale until June, when they will get the same detrashing and melting treatment.
“From now on at the end of each year, we will examine our portfolio to make sure the warehouse is not stuffed with products they (Mint customers) don’t want,” Brunhart says.
“We’re undergoing a significant renewal of our numismatic portfolio in 2009. We have too many products. We have heard loud and clear from our collecting community. We are responding to that. We will be focusing our resources on key products (with the) broadest appeal.
here's my interpretation
looking at this report of quotes from Brunhart, coupled with the 2 press releases, it's my belief that the clearance sale relates only to the long list of junk they have in inventory (old proof sets, unc sets, quarter bags, etc.)
I think the recent repricing of bullion issues was just that- a repricing. Nothing to do with the clearance sale, other than the fact they are obviously trying to move inventory.
I think 2 detrashing/melt dates are set. One, December 19, is for the clearance items. The second, June 2009, is for the discontinued coins (buffalo golds, platinums, etc.)
I think that the discontinued lines are probably not going to continue to be struck, only because it doesn't make much sense to do so if the endgame is to melt these. I very much doubt that any additional platinums will be struck. I'm less certain with the gold buffalos ONLY because those did not have a preset mintage cap, and it seems possible to me that they could have unstruck .999 fine blanks ready to go. However, even if that were true, if minting more would require them to obtain additional packaging items (these boxes are pretty fancy), than my guess is that they won't bother.
I think that the discontinued bullion coins will continue to be sold until the current inventory is gone or June 2009, whichever comes first. If any are left come June 2009, those will be melted. >>
Well thought out response. Thanks. I didn't consider the packaging for the Buffs. That could be a factor since they are quit nice an probably costly. I doubt they would just want to trash them if they had them. Question is- how many boxes do they have in stock. Any mint spies out there?
You mean if you had to choose between the two?
That's a tough call, especially since the $25 sales numbers are higher than expected, but people seem to think they might be adjusted down.
On the one hand, it's probably easier to sell quarters purchased at $320 a pop for a higher percentage over the issue price. Larger, more expensive coins, tend to be harder to resell.
I'm kind of right down the middle on this one; an argument could be made either way.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am confused by the mint's intentions. Is the mint planning to sell out what stock it has of buffalos starting tonight or are they still producing them until June of 2009 at the reset pricing? What is the consensus here?
Here's what Dave Harper reported on his blog:
Mint Deputy Director Andrew D. Brunhart says of the clearance sale, “It will be limited time. First come, first served. No household limits. All sales will be final. If you’re wondering, we won’t exceed any Mint limits.”
The sale will conclude at 5 p.m. Dec. 19, but some products are likely to be gone well before then.
Of those that don’ sell, Brunhart says, “We’re going to be doing a significant detrashing and melting (of) the products that do not sell by Dec. 19. Those products will be immediately broken down and sent to the melter.”
The clearance sale is part of a major re-evaluation of the Mint’s product line. Brunhart says the product offerings will be reduced from more than 550 available in 2008 to roughly 200.
Leftover 2008 products will stay on sale until June, when they will get the same detrashing and melting treatment.
“From now on at the end of each year, we will examine our portfolio to make sure the warehouse is not stuffed with products they (Mint customers) don’t want,” Brunhart says.
“We’re undergoing a significant renewal of our numismatic portfolio in 2009. We have too many products. We have heard loud and clear from our collecting community. We are responding to that. We will be focusing our resources on key products (with the) broadest appeal.
here's my interpretation
looking at this report of quotes from Brunhart, coupled with the 2 press releases, it's my belief that the clearance sale relates only to the long list of junk they have in inventory (old proof sets, unc sets, quarter bags, etc.)
I think the recent repricing of bullion issues was just that- a repricing. Nothing to do with the clearance sale, other than the fact they are obviously trying to move inventory.
I think 2 detrashing/melt dates are set. One, December 19, is for the clearance items. The second, June 2009, is for the discontinued coins (buffalo golds, platinums, etc.)
I think that the discontinued lines are probably not going to continue to be struck, only because it doesn't make much sense to do so if the endgame is to melt these. I very much doubt that any additional platinums will be struck. I'm less certain with the gold buffalos ONLY because those did not have a preset mintage cap, and it seems possible to me that they could have unstruck .999 fine blanks ready to go. However, even if that were true, if minting more would require them to obtain additional packaging items (these boxes are pretty fancy), than my guess is that they won't bother.
I think that the discontinued bullion coins will continue to be sold until the current inventory is gone or June 2009, whichever comes first. If any are left come June 2009, those will be melted. >>
Well thought out response. Thanks. I didn't consider the packaging for the Buffs. That could be a factor since they are quit nice an probably costly. I doubt they would just want to trash them if they had them. Question is- how many boxes do they have in stock. Any mint spies out there? >>
Also, the 1/10 oz unc buff is gone. If they were going to continue to mint these, wouldn't they have just put them on backorder and fired up the presses?
<< <i>I just received some of the coins I ordered Monday. This is my first gold buffalo purchase. The packaging is over the top; very nicely done, certainly explains a lot of the premium over melt required on these coins. Indeed, if you look the price list on these, US Mint, the 1 oz unc buffalo is $968.88 in the "celebration" packaging but $999.95 in the regular packaging -- that's a $30+ premium for the box. >>
The buffalo that is in the Celebration packaging is a non-W regular bullion coin, not the "collectible W-mintmarked" version. The thing I find surprising about the Celebration is that the Mint has sold over 20,000 of them.
<< <i>
<< <i>I just received some of the coins I ordered Monday. This is my first gold buffalo purchase. The packaging is over the top; very nicely done, certainly explains a lot of the premium over melt required on these coins. Indeed, if you look the price list on these, US Mint, the 1 oz unc buffalo is $968.88 in the "celebration" packaging but $999.95 in the regular packaging -- that's a $30+ premium for the box. >>
The buffalo that is in the Celebration packaging is a non-W regular bullion coin, not the "collectible W-mintmarked" version. The thing I find surprising about the Celebration is that the Mint has sold over 20,000 of them. >>
Shows you the power of Marketing
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<< <i>From the Clearance list, I see only one item -- 2004 US Mint Set. This retails for $40.
Other than that, the US Mint will probably have to really lower the prices to move the items. >>
Not for long, prices will crash on these just like the did for the Ocean In View coin covers that were re-offered. The funny thing is that the Ocean in View coin covers used to bring in over $100 on the bay. when they were re-released, the price crashed down to the level of the other covers in the series. but they mintage only went up a couple of hundred units. they are still by far the lowest minatge in the nickel coin cover series.
Its all about perception. if you get these 2004 mint sets, don't sit on them. >>
Now I am trying to think of a way to get rid of my 04 mint set.
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<< <i>I am confused by the mint's intentions. Is the mint planning to sell out what stock it has of buffalos starting tonight or are they still producing them until June of 2009 at the reset pricing? What is the consensus here?
Also, the 1/10 oz unc buff is gone. If they were going to continue to mint these, wouldn't they have just put them on backorder and fired up the presses? >>
This may be over analysis but the latest sales numbers I have for the 1/10th unc. buff is about 12K (not counting the 4-coin set). Now when the mint sets limits on the fractionals they usually seem to allow double what the quarters and halves are for the 1/10ths so if indeed they are sold out of the 1/10ths at somewhere near 12-14K then maybe they purchased packaging for the other fractionals at near 7K and that may be the sellout point. That is probably overthinking but it is food for thought.
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest modern commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think?
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<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
1915-S PANAMA PACIFIC
$50 GOLD COMMEMORATIVES
Varieties (2):
Octagonal - net mintage of 645 coins
Round - net mintage of 483 coins
thanks- wasn't aware of that.
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<< <i>
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
1915-S PANAMA PACIFIC
$50 GOLD COMMEMORATIVES
Varieties (2):
Octagonal - net mintage of 645 coins
Round - net mintage of 483 coins >>
corrected to read rarest modern commemorative
<< <i>will the 8-8-08 Double Prosperity Set be discontinued ? >>
That would be just darned bad luck if you ask me....
<< <i>
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest modern commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
They are also great buy price wise. Platinum earlier this year was at 2,000 oz. This will be a good investment either way long term.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest modern commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
They are also great buy price wise. Platinum earlier this year was at 2,000 oz. This will be a good investment either way long term. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What is the 'group think' on the 4 coin unc. plats??
I've got a non MS70 set that can be returned.
Keep or return?? >>
I think this could easily turn out to be the most historically low mintage of our lifetime. Combine that with the fact they are a great design and made of pure platinum, how can you lose? Additional, in time, they may be recognized as the rarest modern commemorative coins ever produced by the US mint. What do you think? >>
They are also great buy price wise. Platinum earlier this year was at 2,000 oz. This will be a good investment either way long term. >>
>>
oops ... brain fart ...
but only if the collector base for the unc. Plats increase & I don't see that happening. (expensive silver looking coin)
Ren
I disagree.
For one thing, I give collectors a little more credit than selecting coins based on color (silver looking = silver).
Clad coins are silver looking also, but the Mint manages to do a pretty good business in silver proof sets each year, so at least some collectors are able to distinguish between color and metal content.
Second, it's very true that the platinum collector base is small - if it wasn't, there's no way we'd see these coins have the extremely low mintages they do.
The Pan Pacific golds weren't widely purchased when issued, which is why they are the rarity they are today. It's basically a requirement for scarce coins to be unpopular and not widely collected at the outset.
The Platinum unc-w coins initially took off on the secondary market in 2006 primarily based on the ultralow mintages. 2007 saw higher mintages (still extremely low by modern standards), and they didn't do as well on the secondary market. The game at the time was aim for the lowest mintage coin. By 2008, people learned to focus solely on sales numbers. If coins looked like they might be lower than 2006, back up the truck. If they looked like they would be higher than 2007, avoid at all cost. Maybe 2009 would bring even lower mintages. Maybe platinum would spike in 2010, or something else would happen, and mintages would go even lower. There's been a LOT of uncertainty among the few people following these coins.
A few weeks ago, I would have suggested returning $25 unc-w platinums if the mintages went over 4,000 --- primarily because we've seen a pullback on 2006-ws, and 2007-ws have largely tracked spot, so there wouldn't appear to be much upside in a coin with that mintage. Maybe 2009 would be a really low mintage, which also would keep 2008s from being profitable.
Now that the Mint has announced it's discontinuing the unc-w platinums, it's a new day, and time to re-examine how these are approached.
1. No more coins made. No more coins made. No more coins made.
What does that mean? 2006, 2007, 2008. That's it.
2. A discrete 3 coin set
These coins are a great short set. 3 coins. That's it. A collector with ADHD could grasp it. As an added bonus, they have a design-- Foundations of Democracy-- Legislative, Executive, Judicial - that actually has historic relevance to all of us.
3. Relative scarcity
sure, these aren't "rare" in the way a 1913 Liberty Nickel is rare. But in terms of moderns, coins with mintages of 5,000 are scarce. Any coins with mintages that low have done very well. Jackie Robinson $5 gold unc. is a perfect example. Mintage of about 5,000, and no one cared at the time. Now they sell for.... I don't track them, but it's something over $2,000. The same coin, in proof, is much less expensive. People pay the premium because of the low mintage. Yes, platinums are not widely collected. Gold is more widely collected, and for silver coins, 25,000 can be a low mintage. But the numbers do mean something, and all but one (the 2007 $10) have mintages under 5,000 -- in some cases as low as 2,500.
4. so what?
Some people might not care about this. Certainly a lot of classic collectors look down on these platinum widgets as a speculators' game. But these are nicely designed, high bullion content coins, with some of the lowest mintages we've seen in 100 years, that can be collected in a discrete 3 coin set and AT MOST about 3,000 people can have a set of any one denomination (about 3,500 for the $10s, and about 2,500 for the $50s). 3,000.
Platinum doesn't NEED to be as widely collected as silver dollars. It just needs 3,000 collectors to say "hey, this looks like a nice series -- it's high value, low mintage, and is priced at a relatively small multiple to melt."
3,000. How many U.S. coin collectors are there? I'm not sure. Proof sets today easily sell about 2,000,000. American Eagle silver and gold coin sales suggest a population of a couple hundred thousand. Just 1% of that population would easily swallow up all of these coins. They don't need a huge base. They don't even need 100 people in each state.
Any ideas?
<< <i>The buffalo that is in the Celebration packaging is a non-W regular bullion coin, not the "collectible W-mintmarked" version.
thanks- wasn't aware of that. >>
Is the Buffalo in the "Double Prosperity Set" a regular Bullion or an UNC W?
Thanks!
I suggest that you call the US Mint about your order. I think your order may be suspended because of the high value of the set. If you have never ordered before or you are shipping to an address other than the billing address of your credit card, you may need to complete a form from the US Mint. They are doing this to prevent fraud. They had me do this when I ordered a Gold Spouse coin last year. Hope this helps.
I'm not sure that's what the problem is this time...
<< <i>Coins101 and Coinsponge
I suggest that you call the US Mint about your order. I think your order may be suspended because of the high value of the set. If you have never ordered before or you are shipping to an address other than the billing address of your credit card, you may need to complete a form from the US Mint. They are doing this to prevent fraud. They had me do this when I ordered a Gold Spouse coin last year. Hope this helps. >>
Good advice but I don't think that applies here. I order frequently without this problem and have not changed anything lately.
I agree with what nycounsel said. But also, as I think about it I do think that the chips have fallen in collectors' favor.
If it had been my decision, I'd have kept 4 denominations of changing reverse designs in a single type of finish, preferably the original uncs which was a hybrid of proof & unc. And I'd have made them available directly from the Mint at reasonable premiums as a bullion issue with a restrictive return policy, while eliminating the dealer network for Plats altogether.
However, we get what we get from the Mint. The Program we are left with doesn't kill the series, so it leaves open the possiblility of picking up more collectors over time either via the 1 oz. coins, or even through the fractional bullion issues.
Anyone who now embarks on any of the different facets of this series will find it challenging. Some who start with 1/10th oz coins might be tempted to progress into 1/4th oz coins. Some who collect regular uncs might be drawn into the proofs, as before. There are 5 different finish types to consider as subsets within the series, so there are already several different ways to approach a collection within the series, in terms of the varieties.
I've been a bit surprised that the earlier date, higher mintage coins being offered on ebay are still carrying hefty premiums in spite of the price crash in bullion platinum. Does that reflect stubborn-ness on the part of these sellers, or does it portend a growing demand for the older issues that we hadn't noticed during all the market turmoil lately?
Now that the treadmill has been slowed down considerably, we might see more people drawn to the collectible aspects of the Plats. It won't be a rapidly-moving target now. Anyone with collector tendencies will find it easier to focus on, and to budget for a specific segment of the series.
Home at last.
I knew it would happen.
One thing I'd like to see them do is grade the 4 piece sets in the OGP much like NGC does with the GSA's. It will be interesting to see what impact this has on the grading market and it's stock.
<< <i>The only safe order is one that says in stock and reserved for each item, other than that is is time to worry.
My $5 Buffalo proof says in stock and reserved, and my $5 uncirculated buffalo says backordered, everyday the backorder date gets pushed back.
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<< <i>The buffalo that is in the Celebration packaging is a non-W regular bullion coin, not the "collectible W-mintmarked" version.
thanks- wasn't aware of that. >>
Is the Buffalo in the "Double Prosperity Set" a regular Bullion or an UNC W?
Thanks! >>
The 1/2 oz buffalo and the 1/2 oz gold eagle in the Prosperity set are both collectible unc-Ws. You're welcome!
<< <i>Will the reduction in new mint offerings have a meaningful impact(>5%) on annual submissions for PCGS?? >>
could be why pcgs is changing the bodybag rule.
<< <i>So, what time is this sale suppose to start? >>
Sale starts at midnight EST. Internet orders only. All sales final. Items going back to 2004. US Mint website should be back up at about 8:30PM EST. Prices on bullion coins were adjusted yesterday and will not change for tonights event.
That is all according to a US Mint rep I spoke with.
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<< <i>So, what time is this sale suppose to start? >>
Sale starts at midnight EST. Internet orders only. All sales final. Items going back to 2004. US Mint website should be back up at about 8:30PM EST. Prices on bullion coins were adjusted yesterday and will not change for tonights event.
That is all according to a US Mint rep I spoke with. >>
items going back to 2001 actually. you forgot the kennedys
they should sell those for face rather than melt them.
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
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<< <i>Ok, so i try to buy a 4-piece Buffalo PR set. When I am finished, I go to my order page and it shows them as "in stock" but at the top it indicates "Order Status: Your order request has been suspended."
Any ideas? >>
Well, I just got 2 receipts for the two orders I placed, one using the quick check out and the other the normal checkout. Hum, i only wanted one but i was thinking the quick checkout may have had a problem.
<< <i>Mint on-line order website is down for "maintenance". This could be interesting if there are real price cuts on the bullion products..... >>
i don`t think bullion is included in the "sale". the bullion will be available if not already sold out. some of the bullion went up in price yesterday.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ok, so i try to buy a 4-piece Buffalo PR set. When I am finished, I go to my order page and it shows them as "in stock" but at the top it indicates "Order Status: Your order request has been suspended."
Any ideas? >>
Well, I just got 2 receipts for the two orders I placed, one using the quick check out and the other the normal checkout. Hum, i only wanted one but i was thinking the quick checkout may have had a problem. >>
Same here. I cancelled one.
Excellent point. It will be interesting to see if any items not included in the original list are part of the sale.
<< <i>I don't check in here often enough! A lot has happened in the last few months!! >>
The last few days!
The only surprise is how boring this all looks; as far as I can tell, none of this stuff is actually at a discount to what the initial issue price was!
Last Chance Sale... zzzz
San Diego, CA