What PCGS thinks of NGC-graded copper (follow up to "Am I crazy?")
lkeigwin
Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
Maybe you remember a recent post of mine. I said I was disappointed with NGC’s poor guarantee of copper coins (effectively limiting it to only eight years or so). So I shipped off 33 Lincolns (1909 – 1934) in NGC slabs and said to PCGS “tell it like it is”. I’m through with NGC and copper.
All were fairly high-end. Nothing lower than a 64RB (save a VF30 ’22 no-D). I knew it was going to be tough love.
The good news:
Aah…nothing. Not a single coin achieved a higher grade. Only six of 33 received the same grade.
The bad news:
- one body bag for artificial color (see photo below)
- Six dropped a full two points (four 66RD to 64RD, two 67RD to 65RD), a loss of more than $19,000 by PCGS grading values
- Twenty dropped a full grade and four of these also dropped in color (RD to RB or RB to BN), a paper loss I don’t even want to calculate.
Over all, it was worse than I expected. But hey, the coins haven’t changed. I still love them just as much. I may crack out a few after consulting with some dealers whose opinions I respect and resubmit them. (FWIW, one coin PCGS wouldn’t crossover last year due to “questionable color” was slabbed just fine. The below body bagged ‘16D is going back.)
Funny thing is, I’m probably going to do the same with the NGC “modern wheaties”.
I guess I can understand a change in color designation (copper being a little unstable). And even a one point grade change. But two points lower makes me wonder…
…do you think PCGS has a thing about NGC graded copper? You know, some kind of competitive resentment? A good test would be to crack out all of these and resubmit them raw. Ha…I’d probably get a half dozen BB’s.
BB'd 1916-D (well actually I expect it to be returned in its NGC slab):
All were fairly high-end. Nothing lower than a 64RB (save a VF30 ’22 no-D). I knew it was going to be tough love.
The good news:
Aah…nothing. Not a single coin achieved a higher grade. Only six of 33 received the same grade.
The bad news:
- one body bag for artificial color (see photo below)
- Six dropped a full two points (four 66RD to 64RD, two 67RD to 65RD), a loss of more than $19,000 by PCGS grading values
- Twenty dropped a full grade and four of these also dropped in color (RD to RB or RB to BN), a paper loss I don’t even want to calculate.
Over all, it was worse than I expected. But hey, the coins haven’t changed. I still love them just as much. I may crack out a few after consulting with some dealers whose opinions I respect and resubmit them. (FWIW, one coin PCGS wouldn’t crossover last year due to “questionable color” was slabbed just fine. The below body bagged ‘16D is going back.)
Funny thing is, I’m probably going to do the same with the NGC “modern wheaties”.
I guess I can understand a change in color designation (copper being a little unstable). And even a one point grade change. But two points lower makes me wonder…
…do you think PCGS has a thing about NGC graded copper? You know, some kind of competitive resentment? A good test would be to crack out all of these and resubmit them raw. Ha…I’d probably get a half dozen BB’s.
BB'd 1916-D (well actually I expect it to be returned in its NGC slab):
Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
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Comments
And if it makes you feel better, I don't even have the excuse of the copper guarantee to justify the insanity of what I'm doing.
-Randy Newman
those ngc coins never had pcgs value attributed to them
please take no offence either
rough crossover for sure and pays homeage to cracking versus crossing
myself i've only cracked 2...
a 39 pr63rd 1c ...stayed the same
a 37 pr62rd 1c...upgraded to pr64rd
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
I took a one point downgrade on this coin (Now POP 2/0):
PCGS is very tough on copper. One has to expect a downgrade or BB.
The name is LEE!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
So all I will say here is "No comment"
... but I do have a request... could someone please pass the kool aid...
<< <i>Was the 1916-D in a NGC 65RD holder? >>
Yes...still is, I hope. Coins in transit.
<< <i>I don't know that I have ever tried to cross copper from NGC to PCGS, but I have crossed a select few other coins with very good results. However, one must also remember that PCGS can be quite "finicky" with crossover submissions. One real-life example I have was with a wonderful, NGC-graded MS67 coin that I sent to PCGS and where PCGS graded it MS66. It immediately went back to PCGS where it was regraded MS67. Perhaps three months later it was again sent back to PCGS where it was regraded MS68. The coin "gained" five-figures in value through this process. >>
I've heard other similar stories. Sounds like you need to crack out the coins first before submitting if you want a fair and unbiased grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I don't know that I have ever tried to cross copper from NGC to PCGS, but I have crossed a select few other coins with very good results. However, one must also remember that PCGS can be quite "finicky" with crossover submissions. One real-life example I have was with a wonderful, NGC-graded MS67 coin that I sent to PCGS and where PCGS graded it MS66. It immediately went back to PCGS where it was regraded MS67. Perhaps three months later it was again sent back to PCGS where it was regraded MS68. The coin "gained" five-figures in value through this process. >>
If I were in the crossover game, which I'm not, I would throw the dice and crack the coin out before I sent it in to PCGS. I think you are immediately behind the eight ball when PCGS sees that white holder.
<< <i>Lance, I don't think it is just copper. I have yet to have a single NGC bust half dime cross even AT THE SAME GRADE- I have lost grades on every single one without fail. I am currently checking the orders page daily for some more I sent in a month ago- this time I cracked them out before submitting. I'll share the results when I get them and we'll compare notes.
And if it makes you feel better, I don't even have the excuse of the copper guarantee to justify the insanity of what I'm doing.
Thanks, Jack. I'm very curious to hear the results on those you cracked and submitted.
I like to believe graders ignore the other TPG grade and simply examine the coin objectively. But I wonder if it's humanly possible to be blind to the other guy's opinion, particularly when he's your biggest competitor.
<< <i>I don't know that I have ever tried to cross copper from NGC to PCGS, but I have crossed a select few other coins with very good results. However, one must also remember that PCGS can be quite "finicky" with crossover submissions. One real-life example I have was with a wonderful, NGC-graded MS67 coin that I sent to PCGS and where PCGS graded it MS66. It immediately went back to PCGS where it was regraded MS67. Perhaps three months later it was again sent back to PCGS where it was regraded MS68. The coin "gained" five-figures in value through this process. >>
That's impressive. Did you send it back raw both times?
<< <i>I can feel your pain:
I took a one point downgrade on this coin (Now POP 2/0):
PCGS is very tough on copper. One has to expect a downgrade or BB. >>
Well, there goes the only 1949-S in an NGC MS67RB. Interesting. . .
CG
I think a lot depends on where the NGC coin grades on the grade continuum. Imo, NGC let through too many Braided Hair Large Cents & CBHs in 5. Re the Large Cents, I think the two services are fairly consistent regarding color designation. I also get the impression that PC is tougher on RD IHCs than NGC. Can't comment re Lincolns
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