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question about PM refining, assaying, and making of bars.

fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
Well guys and gals, I have been googling for the last hour or two
on this topic. Especially when it concerns licensing and laws.

I propose this idea for you to mull over.

Buy one 100 ounce .999 fine silver bar or 100 ounces of silver "shot".
Procede to melt this silver and pour into smaller units, lets say 5
ounce bars. These bars would then be wieghed and stamped with
the exact weight, a serial number, fineness, and my name. I would then sell
them on ebay as they may fetch more of a premium in this shape,
size, etc..

What laws could I possibly be breaking in doing so?

I know you cannot put USA or US anywhere on the bar. That is a fact. Our country has no hallmark standards unlike Europe. I can
guarantee the fineness because I would buy already .999 fine silver.

Anyone have expertise in this field to shoot down the idea?

I am just curious... and i find this topic interesting.

Comments

  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    fc, that sounds like a cool idea! Let me know what you find out. I'd like to buy some from you if you do make one.
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  • alifaxwa2alifaxwa2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭
    my biggest question would be about keeping the weights consistent, especially if you doing it by hand. But, I guess you could weight them after and stamp each of them with the varying weights they end up.
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  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭


    << <i>my biggest question would be about keeping the weights consistent, especially if you doing it by hand. But, I guess you could weight them after and stamp each of them with the varying weights they end up. >>



    that is exactly what old pour bar makers used to do.
    engelhard actually used to shave the sides i think of their old pour
    bars to bring them into a tolerance. after all every old pour bar
    i have ever owned has a rough texture to the sides.. like it was
    grinded in some way.

    what i posted above is very simple. i have been reading about melting
    silver and its affinity for oxygen, higher melting temps then most
    people can easily get a hold of, and other road blocks that would
    take research.

    i have no interest in being COMEX certified over what ever they
    call it. i am just worried if i stamp .999 fine into a bar what could
    the legal reprecussions be. i need to talk to a jeweler.. i think.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would think that you would need a somewhat accurate and reliable assay method for both raw material and finished product. Otherwise, how would you ever know what you were doing, and how else could you hope to establish a trusted name in the marketplace? Just my two cents...
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

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  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I know you cannot put USA or US anywhere on the bar. That is a fact. >>



    Where did you hear that ?
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I would think that you would need a somewhat accurate and reliable assay method for both raw material and finished product. Otherwise, how would you ever know what you were doing, and how else could you hope to establish a trusted name in the marketplace? Just my two cents... >>



    sample of the material i have been reading tonight. assaying of gold.

    sample of melting gold and pouring it.. this website was a fun read.

    i am basically thinking in simple terms right now. if you melt .999 fine
    silver and do not let impurities into the mix... when it cools, it should
    for all purposes still be .999 fine silver.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I know you cannot put USA or US anywhere on the bar. That is a fact. >>



    Where did you hear that ? >>



    my apologies. i misspoke. here is the quote.

    "Title 15, Chapter 8, Section 291 of the United States Code makes it unlawful to stamp goods in the United States with "United States assay" or any similar stamp which gives the impression that the item has been officially assayed by the United States government."

    I figured this would mean that if i poured a bar and called myself
    the "US silver company" and then put .999 fine on the bar, i could
    set myself up for a raid by the govt..


    and speaking of the devil, you must know quite a bit about this
    since you have hammered out some of your own coins.
  • FC..... What you are planning is actually not very hard to do. Here is the set up for you.

    1 electric furnace/kiln with a max temp. of 2500F.
    5 sets of graphite molds with 4 - 5oz bays each. *
    1 set of Sears metal Alpha/Numeric stamps.

    You place your premeasured shot into each bay of the mold. This way you make 20 5oz bars per cycle.
    By having the silver premeasured, there is no need to pour molten silver AND no need to adjust the weight of
    each bar later. Load the molds in a stack into the furance. Ramp up...turn off...let cool for 3 hours...unload.
    WaaaLaaa.... 20 perfecty weighed 5 oz bars. The same thing will work with 10 oz as well.

    * Suggestion.... buy 10 size molds.... this way you can make 5's or 10's with the same molds.

    To mark each bar, use the metal stamps. You could have a set of stamps made for the ".999 Fine Silver"
    ant the weight and your name/logo... BUTTT I really do NOT recommend it..... the force needed to punch
    a good impression of any long die is incredable. Using the indivdual stamps is easy and allows you to
    make changes [ name...weights ] on the fly.

    And no.... there are no permits needed or laws you need to be aware of.... Just common sense....like
    NOT using someone elses name or "to similar" of name or logo.


    Let us all know if you "Fire it up!"
    Silver Baron
    ********************
    Silver is the mortar that binds the bricks of loyalty.
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,104 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>FC..... What you are planning is actually not very hard to do. Here is the set up for you.

    1 electric furnace/kiln with a max temp. of 2500F.
    5 sets of graphite molds with 4 - 5oz bays each. *
    1 set of Sears metal Alpha/Numeric stamps.

    You place your premeasured shot into each bay of the mold. This way you make 20 5oz bars per cycle.
    By having the silver premeasured, there is no need to pour molten silver AND no need to adjust the weight of
    each bar later. Load the molds in a stack into the furance. Ramp up...turn off...let cool for 3 hours...unload.
    WaaaLaaa.... 20 perfecty weighed 5 oz bars. The same thing will work with 10 oz as well.

    * Suggestion.... buy 10 size molds.... this way you can make 5's or 10's with the same molds.

    To mark each bar, use the metal stamps. You could have a set of stamps made for the ".999 Fine Silver"
    ant the weight and your name/logo... BUTTT I really do NOT recommend it..... the force needed to punch
    a good impression of any long die is incredable. Using the indivdual stamps is easy and allows you to
    make changes [ name...weights ] on the fly.

    And no.... there are no permits needed or laws you need to be aware of.... Just common sense....like
    NOT using someone elses name or "to similar" of name or logo.


    Let us all know if you "Fire it up!" >>



    Has anyone ever done a cost analysis on a project like this?
    How much silver would you have to come up with in order to make a profit. In my opinion, it's not cost effective for a home spun project.
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>FC..... What you are planning is actually not very hard to do. Here is the set up for you.

    1 electric furnace/kiln with a max temp. of 2500F.
    5 sets of graphite molds with 4 - 5oz bays each. *
    1 set of Sears metal Alpha/Numeric stamps.

    You place your premeasured shot into each bay of the mold. This way you make 20 5oz bars per cycle.
    By having the silver premeasured, there is no need to pour molten silver AND no need to adjust the weight of
    each bar later. Load the molds in a stack into the furance. Ramp up...turn off...let cool for 3 hours...unload.
    WaaaLaaa.... 20 perfecty weighed 5 oz bars. The same thing will work with 10 oz as well.

    * Suggestion.... buy 10 size molds.... this way you can make 5's or 10's with the same molds.

    To mark each bar, use the metal stamps. You could have a set of stamps made for the ".999 Fine Silver"
    ant the weight and your name/logo... BUTTT I really do NOT recommend it..... the force needed to punch
    a good impression of any long die is incredable. Using the indivdual stamps is easy and allows you to
    make changes [ name...weights ] on the fly.

    And no.... there are no permits needed or laws you need to be aware of.... Just common sense....like
    NOT using someone elses name or "to similar" of name or logo.


    Let us all know if you "Fire it up!" >>



    Has anyone ever done a cost analysis on a project like this?
    How much silver would you have to come up with in order to make a profit. In my opinion, it's not cost effective for a home spun project. >>



    but the same thing could be said for dcarr's project of making coins. you have to have fun doing
    it which offsets the cost and have a wee bit of potential to make money down the road. everything
    starts small and takes seed money to make happen.

    I know that molds and related tools are not expensive. It is the heat source that will
    be the biggest investment. I will research some more over the week and report back.
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    I wonder if you will need something nasty such as a bath of boiling acid to wash the scale off of the metal to get it shiny? Perhaps silver does not need such treatment. I don't know.

    I certainly hope you don't end up making a multiple hundred dollar butt-ugly turd-bar. That would be an unfortunate result.

    It might be interesting to do if you have fun, but I do not believe you could make a profit doing this. You are buying your silver at melt. I do not think you can expect your home poured bars to sell for over melt, in fact, your buyer pool will be small for those bars.

    You have to overcome a credibility problem, as your buyer does not know what you put into this bar and you have not mentioned that you are going to get a professional assayer to put their stamp of assurance onto this item. We heard what you plan here...fine silver....but will your buyer take that as 100% truth?
    Most buyers would treat such a product as 'contaminated with lead'. A home-poured "silver bar"? I would expect nothing less than some hanky panky in the metal mix. Even if I was a 100% believer, I would worry about what the next buyer down the line would think.

    You do not mention refining, which is interesting. To separate Silver from Lead, one uses molten Zinc. Zinc does not mix with lead. But it does mix with silver much better than silver wants to mix with lead. So, the molten zinc, sitting in a separate layer from the lead, sucks up all of the silver. Then, after a time, you pour off the zinc-silver mix....and boil off the Zinc. You are left with very fine silver. Sounds real hot and messy! I wonder how you recover zinc vapors?







  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
    This seems like a lot of work. Also, unless the buyer personally knew you, he or should would probably be wary of buying this product (on Ebay or wherever)
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,104 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>but the same thing could be said for dcarr's project of making coins. you have to have fun doing >>


    You are comparing apples with oranges. The OP wants to make silver bars...not UNO's, which Daniel sells at a 500% markup over silver spot .....
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>but the same thing could be said for dcarr's project of making coins. you have to have fun doing >>


    You are comparing apples with oranges. The OP wants to make silver bars...not UNO's, which Daniel sells at a 500% markup over silver spot ..... >>



    i had no idea his silver coins were marked up so much. I would be surprised if he actually
    makes money once you factor in time and costs. Maybe he can share with us?

    I figure that people are buying silver poured bars from places/companies that no longer exist.
    These operations were probably not much different then a group of people mining ore,
    refining it, assaying it, and pouring a bar. Then they place their mark.

    I am suggesting buying a 100 or 1000 oz bar(s) for pennies/dimes over spot and creating 200 5 oz bars where
    the premium runs into multiple dollars.

    As another poster mentioned they simplified the process a lot by melting the silver in the cast.

    But alas, this is day dreaming in the research stage. I appreciate all the input from folks!
  • FC..... If you only use .999 fine shot.... the bars will come out clean.... no need for acid or wire brush cleaning.

    I would strongly recommend NOT using 100's or 1000's... as you would then need to pour MOLTEN metal
    into nearly perfect amounts..... NOT easy!!

    Yes... the shot will cost you a bit more than scrap 100's or 1000's.... but the ease of using shot over pouring
    molten silver makes it worth it.... IMHO.

    Silver Baron
    ********************
    Silver is the mortar that binds the bricks of loyalty.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭


    << <i>FC..... If you only use .999 fine shot.... the bars will come out clean.... no need for acid or wire brush cleaning.

    I would strongly recommend NOT using 100's or 1000's... as you would then need to pour MOLTEN metal
    into nearly perfect amounts..... NOT easy!!

    Yes... the shot will cost you a bit more than scrap 100's or 1000's.... but the ease of using shot over pouring
    molten silver makes it worth it.... IMHO. >>



    i agree. it is often the one form of metal no one seems to want to
    buy also. I mention it in my first post.
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>FC..... If you only use .999 fine shot.... the bars will come out clean.... no need for acid or wire brush cleaning.

    I would strongly recommend NOT using 100's or 1000's... as you would then need to pour MOLTEN metal
    into nearly perfect amounts..... NOT easy!!

    Yes... the shot will cost you a bit more than scrap 100's or 1000's.... but the ease of using shot over pouring
    molten silver makes it worth it.... IMHO. >>



    Yes, but you can easily make "shot" from a 1000 oz bar by melting it and pouring the molten metal directly into a barrel of water.
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>but the same thing could be said for dcarr's project of making coins. you have to have fun doing >>


    You are comparing apples with oranges. The OP wants to make silver bars...not UNO's, which Daniel sells at a 500% markup over silver spot ..... >>



    i had no idea his silver coins were marked up so much. I would be surprised if he actually
    makes money once you factor in time and costs. Maybe he can share with us? >>



    My goal with the "UNA" (Union of North America) fantasy coins was not to create a bullion product, but rather to make attractive limited-production collectible coins. Most bullion coins are of mediocre design quality and have high production figures. I spent a lot of time on the design and engraving, and the mintages on my silver coins are typically around 300 coins of each type (sometimes a bit more or a lot less). Although I have significant expenses in equipment, materials, and supplies, I make out ok because I don't have to pay anyone else for the time I put into producing these image

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