Why do you feel coin doctoring is unethical?

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Just curious as to other people's opinions.

And what if it is so good that you still believe you have a fully original coin?

Is it still unethical if the seller reveals to the buyer that the piece has been "worked on," even though it's in a TPG holder?

…

depends on definition of doctoring...
edited for spelling

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>depends on definition of doctoring...
edited for spelling >>



I don't mean dipping or soaking in acetone...

I'm talking about significant articificial toning, crusting, repairing, tooling, lasering (does it even exist?), professional whizzing, filling in gashes, etc...

MikeInFL

"Why do you feel coin doctoring is unethical?"

Because it requires deception.

Although I would prefer it not occur or occur in only special situations (for instance repairing a hole), I can see no ethical problem with doctoring if done above-board and providing for a way for it to remain so.

…

MAYBE AT if its done really well and looks natural. whizzing, repairing, tooling, etc may deceive the novice collector, but i believe most of the posters on this forum and above the novice position and just find that ugly and detracting. Anything with metal displacement involved is a major no no.

dizzyfoxx

If it is completely disclosed, it's not unethical. If it's done and intended to deceive, then it is absolutely unethical.

adamlaneus

There is a big problem with the 'intent to deceive' part. A chain of individuals can be involved. A relatively innocent link in that chain is inevitably linked to the rotten fraudulent link at the end of the chain of ownership.

Say that someone has repaired (i.e. doctored) a coin. This gets it into a NCS slab or a PCGS genuine slab. But it is repaired; it says so on the slab.

What happens when someone cracks the coin out of that slab and misrepresents it?

Like it or not, the person doing the repairs has enabled the deception to take place later on down the line. Even though at the time, the cleaning/repairing was disclosed and transparent.

DennisH

It is fraud that is committed for the sole intent of deceiving a buyer and generating greater profit for the seller.

ricko

Caveat Emptor... you can label the practice unethical..however, that will neither stop nor inhibit the practice...ethics, like laws, are for the ethical and the law abiding..... neither the coin doctors or criminals are in those categories, and could care less about our labels. To answer the question, it is unethical when performed to deceive. Notice I did not say profit... that goes without saying...and, of course the market demand ensures a continuing source of better and better examples. I do not care what ANYONE says.. there are processes that have been perfected to such a level that NO SELF PROFESSED EXPERT can detect them. That being said, enjoy the hobby. Cheers, RickO

PrivateCoinCollector

There is nothing unethical about working on a coin. It only becomes unethical when upon transfer of ownership the work is not disclosed.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>MAYBE AT if its done really well and looks natural. whizzing, repairing, tooling, etc may deceive the novice collector, but i believe most of the posters on this forum and above the novice position and just find that ugly and detracting. Anything with metal displacement involved is a major no no. >>



If done extremely well, it will fool even the most trained experts. It's not just novices.

Frankcoins

In real estate, if the seller is aware of a problem and an inspector misses it, issuing an "MS65" home report, the
seller is STILL not only responsible for the remedying the defect, but can also face charges for failing to disclose
a defect that he knew about, REGARDLESS of any "certification."

fc

doctoring a coin is not unethical. it is a coin, an object. it has no
feelings or say on how it should be treated.

if a buyer is foolish/without proper education on coins and pays bigtime for a coin only to
find out it was doctored.. turns the situation into something that is unethical
to make themselves feel better about it.

basically shifting the blame to someone else.

i have noticed the coin collecting hobby likes to blow things out of
proportion.

ethics to me, in the coin hobby, is following up a deal as agreed upon.

this hobby is full of examples were people do not fully disclose things... constantly...
(for example, is it ethical to upgrade a coin from 64 to 66 at pcgs
at not tell the new buyer? of course not!)

etc...

fc

<< <i>There is nothing unethical about working on a coin. It only becomes unethical when upon transfer of ownership the work is not disclosed. >>



this is exactly what i meant by my example. if you expect full disclosure.. why not expect dealers to list all coins that upgraded
before selling them? of course they don't. knowledge is power.
buyer beware. educate yourself.

take responsibility for your actions.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>In real estate, if the seller is aware of a problem and an inspector misses it, issuing an "MS65" home report, the
seller is STILL not only responsible for the remedying the defect, but can also face charges for failing to disclose
a defect that he knew about, REGARDLESS of any "certification." >>



Except this is the coin business.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>doctoring a coin is not unethical. it is a coin, an object. it has no
feelings or say on how it should be treated.

if a buyer is foolish/without proper education on coins and pays bigtime for a coin only to
find out it was doctored.. turns the situation into something that is unethical
to make themselves feel better about it.

basically shifting the blame to someone else.

i have noticed the coin collecting hobby likes to blow things out of
proportion.

ethics to me, in the coin hobby, is following up a deal as agreed upon.

this hobby is full of examples were people do not fully disclose things... constantly...
(for example, is it ethical to upgrade a coin from 64 to 66 at pcgs
at not tell the new buyer? of course not!)

etc... >>



I agree entirely. I was hoping I could find someone with a similar field of thought.

MikeInFL

<< <i>take responsibility for your actions. >>



Setting aside the blame game for the moment (as I believe we ALL should be responsible for our own actions), is it wrong for the seller/doctor to be held to the same standard?

Just wondering...Mike

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>There is nothing unethical about working on a coin. It only becomes unethical when upon transfer of ownership the work is not disclosed. >>



this is exactly what i meant by my example. if you expect full disclosure.. why not expect dealers to list all coins that upgraded
before selling them? of course they don't. knowledge is power.
buyer beware. educate yourself.

take responsibility for your actions. >>



Wow, I think I have a new best friend. i could not agree more.

QBert

I thought dis-figuring us money intentionally for the intent of profit was illegal? Isn't there some kindof law about doing that?

…

<< <i>

<< <i>MAYBE AT if its done really well and looks natural. whizzing, repairing, tooling, etc may deceive the novice collector, but i believe most of the posters on this forum and above the novice position and just find that ugly and detracting. Anything with metal displacement involved is a major no no. >>



If done extremely well, it will fool even the most trained experts. It's not just novices. >>


i didnt mean AT. I was talking about the other stuff.

Fairlaneman

<< <i>There is nothing unethical about working on a coin. It only becomes unethical when upon transfer of ownership the work is not disclosed. >>



Somewhere along the line the disclosuer about the work on the coin will get lost. With this in mind if a person works on a coin the only way to protect future owners is for the owner to destoy the coin he worked on when his enjoyment of the coin is over. If destruction is not done then the doctoring is very unethical even if it was not done intentionally for profit.

Ken

fc

<< <i>

<< <i>take responsibility for your actions. >>



Setting aside the blame game for the moment (as I believe we ALL should be responsible for our own actions), is it wrong for the seller/doctor to be held to the same standard?

Just wondering...Mike >>



it appears to me the doctor is not doing anything they think is unethical. only preparing the coin for sale by making it look better
in appearance to possible buyers, novice and expert.

just like a coin dealer whips out the dip to that proof seated dollar
so they can get the upgrade at pcgs.

amazing as it may sound, i bet you can find a collector who really
appreciates a finely done doctoring job on a coin and will gush
on how it was improved and would gladly pay for the service if
available.

oh, it is professionally available you say? NGC and PCGS both offer
it?

silly me. it is accepted in the hobby!

edited to add: ngc == ncs
edited to add: i heard pcgs plays with coins that have turned in the
holder, etc... same thing. spotting or what not.

RYK

Anytime you attempt to deceive someone for personal profit, it is unethical, be it in medicine, law, car sales, business of any kind, or coins.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>MAYBE AT if its done really well and looks natural. whizzing, repairing, tooling, etc may deceive the novice collector, but i believe most of the posters on this forum and above the novice position and just find that ugly and detracting. Anything with metal displacement involved is a major no no. >>



If done extremely well, it will fool even the most trained experts. It's not just novices. >>


i didnt mean AT. I was talking about the other stuff. >>



I was talking about the other stuff.

AUandAG

I sure don't believe there is a problem with doctoring coins. I just believe there IS a problem with
telling or indicating that the coin is original when you know in fact it's been doctored.

If it's yours, do what you want with it. Just don't try to deceive when you sell it.

bob

MikeInFL

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>take responsibility for your actions. >>



Setting aside the blame game for the moment (as I believe we ALL should be responsible for our own actions), is it wrong for the seller/doctor to be held to the same standard?

Just wondering...Mike >>



it appears to me the doctor is not doing anything they think is unethical. only preparing the coin for sale by making it look better
in appearance to possible buyers, novice and expert.

just like a coin dealer whips out the dip to that proof seated dollar
so they can get the upgrade at pcgs.

amazing as it may sound, i bet you can find a collector who really
appreciates a finely done doctoring job on a coin and will gush
on how it was improved and would gladly pay for the service if
available.

oh, it is professionally available you say? NGC and PCGS both offer
it?

silly me. it is accepted in the hobby!

edited to add: ngc == ncs
edited to add: i heard pcgs plays with coins that have turned in the
holder, etc... same thing. spotting or what not. >>



A few points...

First off, if the doctor had no problem ethically with their decision, why don't they disclose their work? Because what they do requires deception, which is always wrong, IMO.

Second, I view dipping for profit no differently than doctoring.

Third, just because the TPGs do it, doesn't make it right.

Respectfully...Mike

CharlotteDude

Doctoring, as GoldenEyeNumismatics defines it.... totally uncool.

It's unethical because it's intent is to deceive...

Originality rules!

'dude

fc

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>take responsibility for your actions. >>



Setting aside the blame game for the moment (as I believe we ALL should be responsible for our own actions), is it wrong for the seller/doctor to be held to the same standard?

Just wondering...Mike >>



it appears to me the doctor is not doing anything they think is unethical. only preparing the coin for sale by making it look better
in appearance to possible buyers, novice and expert.

just like a coin dealer whips out the dip to that proof seated dollar
so they can get the upgrade at pcgs.

amazing as it may sound, i bet you can find a collector who really
appreciates a finely done doctoring job on a coin and will gush
on how it was improved and would gladly pay for the service if
available.

oh, it is professionally available you say? NGC and PCGS both offer
it?

silly me. it is accepted in the hobby!

edited to add: ngc == ncs
edited to add: i heard pcgs plays with coins that have turned in the
holder, etc... same thing. spotting or what not. >>



A few points...

First off, if the doctor had no problem ethically with their decision, why don't they disclose their work? Because what they do requires deception, which is always wrong, IMO.

Second, I view dipping for profit no differently than doctoring.

Third, just because the TPGs do it, doesn't make it right.

Respectfully...Mike >>



they do not have to disclose it because it is a part of this hobby and
is accepted by the "big boys". the "professionals". the "experts".

lets face it. you sleep with dogs you will end up with fleas. that is
the state of this hobby. we cannot change it. it is what it is.

so for us to say unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally
hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold.

MikeInFL

<< <i>they do not have to disclose it because it is a part of this hobby and
is accepted by the "big boys". the "professionals". the "experts".

lets face it. you sleep with dogs you will end up with fleas. that is
the state of this hobby. we cannot change it. it is what it is.

so for us to try unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally
hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold. >>



BS. They don't disclose it because it's the coin game's dirty little secret, because it makes them money, and because it hinges on deception.

Also, to use your example, just because I have fleas doesn't mean I have to like it (or think it ethical)...Mike

p.s. I have no idea what you meant by: "so for us to try unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold." Please explain.

fc

<< <i>

<< <i>they do not have to disclose it because it is a part of this hobby and
is accepted by the "big boys". the "professionals". the "experts".

lets face it. you sleep with dogs you will end up with fleas. that is
the state of this hobby. we cannot change it. it is what it is.

so for us to try unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally
hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold. >>



BS. They don't disclose it because it's the coin game's dirty little secret, because it makes them money, and because it hinges on deception.

Also, to use your example, just because I have fleas doesn't mean I have to like it (or think it ethical)...Mike

p.s. I have no idea what you meant by: "so for us to try unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold." Please explain. >>



i meant to say "say" instead of "try". typo.

pcgs uses doctoring in some cases to correct a coins condition.
by us using and supporting pcgs in various ways we are basically
giving them the idea we do not mind it. using this board is a way
we support pcgs. buying coins graded by pcgs is a way to support
them.

they use "doctoring" and we look the other way.

that is what i meant. if we really truly cared we would probably
not be here... or the ngc (ncs) boards...

me? i know i will never change this hobby when it comes to doctoring.
it is fully entrenched and part of it. an intrinsic part actually. very
few people do not practice the arts of the "doctor". we are a minority.

it is a very natural feeling for most collectors to wish they could
improve on how a coin looks. many try and some succeed.

MrEureka

Doctoring in itself is not unethical. It's what comes next that may be.

fc

<< <i>Doctoring in itself is not unethical. It's what comes next that may be. >>



so in what ways do dealers get around this problem? that critical
next step...

i have some very obvious and not very nice ideas...

my first one will be.. that is not my coin! it is consigned!

adamlaneus

LOL

"It's consigned!"

I wonder if that one has been tried over stolen property?

ProofRainbowRoosevelt

Havn't read any of the other responses, sorry if I'm repeating. When you doctor a coin, you're attempting to decept. Plain and simple.

TwoSides2aCoin

The ethical thing to do is to destroy doctored coins.
Oh wait, they're already destroyed.
Grind 'em up !

ricko

Ethics, beyond the basic moralities dictated by society (as we, here, understand it), are determined by the culture. In other cultures, counterfeiting, stealing etc, are not morally or ethically wrong - they equate to survival. Here, in numismatics, we have set some 'standards' - or morals or ethics as you may determine.. Most here are not trained to define between the three. That is not a put down, this is a very deep and philosophical topic which many have studied for their entire lives. Most, have not, and are therefore poorly equipped to expound upon the properties of each. Libraries of books are written on the subject. Some, would say - (here and in numismatic circles), that any attempt at altering the appearance of a coin is 'wrong'... Oh really... you paint your house when selling, clean it, etc... the same for your car etc etc etc... coins are inanimate objects.. YOUR (and I use the term loosely) PREFERENCE is that (in your imagination and limited appraisal ability) the coin be "original" in all respects. Then we have our resident experts and a multitude of psuedo-experts attempting to pass judgement on various coins.. through pictures etc that even scientific methods may not be able to differentiate. Ridiculous.. however, there are glaring examples of garbage.. not to be confused with those examples that even the experts extoll. So, after all this, what are we left with...... We are left with a hobby, with no clear and definable standards, a plethora of emotions and poorly based beliefs, con artists of the highest order (and many of the lowest order), and coins which we want and hope to be representative of our highest ideals. Many are not. Where does this leave us? I submit, we should do our best to select the coins that make us happy, that satisfy US as collectors.. not other people and their half baked opinions (real or authentic).. the coins are OURS... and we must appreciate them for what they are.. not for what others choose to say. What happened? Once, when people criticized an individual for their looks or behavior, the individual either changed or stood up and said "That is who I am."... now, perfectly good coins become garbage if someonelse says 'AT, dipped, etc'... Get real people... get back to collecting coins, not status symbols approved by someone who may or may not be qualified to judge a hamster contest. Cheers, RickO

TwoSides2aCoin

It's not about judgement.... it's about refinement. And let's face it; Doctored coins need refinement.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>they do not have to disclose it because it is a part of this hobby and
is accepted by the "big boys". the "professionals". the "experts".

lets face it. you sleep with dogs you will end up with fleas. that is
the state of this hobby. we cannot change it. it is what it is.

so for us to try unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally
hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold. >>



BS. They don't disclose it because it's the coin game's dirty little secret, because it makes them money, and because it hinges on deception.

Also, to use your example, just because I have fleas doesn't mean I have to like it (or think it ethical)...Mike

p.s. I have no idea what you meant by: "so for us to try unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold." Please explain. >>



It's not a secret at all. Most people in the loop know who a lot of the major doctors are. There are some people though, who are totally covert.

ProofRainbowRoosevelt

<< <i>It's not a secret at all. Most people in the loop know who a lot of the major doctors are. There are some people though, who are totally covert. >>



I would like to think I can spot a doctored coin if I see it, but don't know who the major doctors are. Would you care to mention a few?

pheh

<<Why do you feel coin doctoring is unethical?>>

I don't.

Edited: To put my answer in context.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>It's not a secret at all. Most people in the loop know who a lot of the major doctors are. There are some people though, who are totally covert. >>



I would like to think I can spot a doctored coin if I see it, but don't know who the major doctors are. Would you care to mention a few? >>



I won't disclose anyone. I don't really consider myself totally "in the loop" either.

MikeInFL

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>they do not have to disclose it because it is a part of this hobby and
is accepted by the "big boys". the "professionals". the "experts".

lets face it. you sleep with dogs you will end up with fleas. that is
the state of this hobby. we cannot change it. it is what it is.

so for us to try unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally
hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold. >>



BS. They don't disclose it because it's the coin game's dirty little secret, because it makes them money, and because it hinges on deception.

Also, to use your example, just because I have fleas doesn't mean I have to like it (or think it ethical)...Mike

p.s. I have no idea what you meant by: "so for us to try unethical yet stay and post on these boards is totally hypocritcal and funny to watch unfold." Please explain. >>



It's not a secret at all. Most people in the loop know who a lot of the major doctors are. There are some people though, who are totally covert. >>



Really? Not a secret? Then post their names.

moosesr

Is making a pocket piece out of a coin to remove an old cleaning considered coin doctoring?

dorkkarl

coin doctoring is not unethical

unethical applies to how coins are SOLD

K S

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>Is making a pocket piece out of a coin to remove an old cleaning consider coin doctoring? >>



It depends on your intent as you rub the orb with your hand in your pocket

19Lyds

<< <i>There is nothing unethical about working on a coin. It only becomes unethical when upon transfer of ownership the work is not disclosed. >>



This is of course assuming that the coin will never be sold again by an individual that does not know the coin was doctored.

But..........the doctoring would have to be proven and since there are so many "supposedly" good doctors out there, who really is to say whether or not a coin has been worked on?

Nobody!

garsmith

Lets see purposely subjecting a coin to chemical or environmental conditions to induce the discoloration of the coin for financial gains, yep that sure sounds unethical to me.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>.


this hobby is full of examples were people do not fully disclose things... constantly...
(for example, is it ethical to upgrade a coin from 64 to 66 at pcgs
at not tell the new buyer? of course not!)

etc... >>



Why do you feel its necessary to tell the new buyer the coin used to be a 64? If you submitted it for upgrade then you surely must have thought it was better than a 64 so why the need to disclose anything.