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Have you ever had a coin graded by the tpg's that was a fake?
YaHa
Posts: 4,220 ✭
I was reading some stories in a old Coin mag and the shame what pepple do to make a buck. Have any of you out here had a fake that was slabbed and if so what kind of coin was it. You don't have to mention the grading slabs company. thanks.
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Will’sProoflikes
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
<< <i>PCGS slabbed a couple hundred 1896, 1900, and 1902 Morgans with the micro "O" mintmarks that later were proved to be fake. >>
Actually, the total number of those three dates was just 95. (NGC graded just 8 and ANACS graded 209.) Approximately 25 have been voluntarily sold back to PCGS at very fair prices.
The remaining 70 or so PCGS-encapsulated coins have become even more desireable than ever among VAM collectors in particular, and are rarely -- very rarely -- ever offered for sale.
For example:
- I have an NGC slab with a Maria Theresia restrike which was slabbed as original.
- My local dealer once bought a 1600's norwegian coin in MS65, which also turned out to be just a restrike (Even with norwegian for restrike, "nypreg", as a visible strike on the coin)
- Just recently I saw an NGC slab "Norway 1878 5 ore" for sale on ebay, but the coin was not at all that coin. It was a swedish 1878 5 ore.
These are not fakes, but when they fail so obviously on foreign coins, I doubt that they will recognize all fakes.
and since a few of you brought up the micro O morgans, i thought i would point out that there is one currently on Ebay (ANACS)
www.brunkauctions.com
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>I remember reading about a 16-D dime in a third world slab where the mint mark came unglued and was bouncing around inside the slab. I won't say what the grading service is because I don't want to be sued. >>
............talk about HUMILIATION!!
I have seen a PCGS 1916-D dime with a added mintmark out there on the floor.
The key thing is that the top grading services when they do make a mistake on authenticity is that they buy the coin back and not let it float out there giving a bad reputation. Millions of coins get graded and few make it by the expert graders/authenticators. Thats why they make the money they do. The key is to learn what countereits are out there and the key diagnostics to spot them....raw or in slabs.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>When I joined ICG in 2005 we had never had a counterfeit US coin accidently slip by and slab. Then in 2007 one gold coin was a counterfeit and wasn't caught the first time through. ICG quickly bought it and took it off the market. 1 US coin in 10 years? Thats awesome I think.
I have seen a PCGS 1916-D dime with a added mintmark out there on the floor.
The key thing is that the top grading services when they do make a mistake on authenticity is that they buy the coin back and not let it float out there giving a bad reputation. Millions of coins get graded and few make it by the expert graders/authenticators. Thats why they make the money they do. The key is to learn what countereits are out there and the key diagnostics to spot them....raw or in slabs.
Cameron Kiefer >>
...........good point. the challenge is for the counterfeiters to fool someone. and fooling a tpg has to be quite the accomplishment
So -- Coin Philosophy Class 101 question here -- Might there be coins out there in holders that the TPG's haven't found out about yet?
<< <i>Not me personally, but there are many "o" mint counterfeit morgans in slabs out there. They are actually worth more than the real thing in the grades they are in, because of the novelty. >>
Yeah, I knew nothing about them until Coxe and Rampage and Messydesk clued me in when they saw this one in some random pics I had posted. Sent it in to PCGS for the heck of it.
According to the fellas the die gouge between U and M is the giveaway, and I think they said the date was too close because it was hand stamped. Should be at least two denticles away from the point of the neck and not 1 1/2?
Don't quote me on that last part, though. Been a while since we discussed it.
obscure notes/currency then they do coins.
real
fake
fake note
Kieferscoins:
When I joined ICG in 2005 we had never had a counterfeit US coin accidently slip by and slab.
Realone:
So how many TPG mistakes are out there unidentified that is the question in my mind...
Exactly. Cameron, how do you now that ICG "never had a counterfeit US coin accidentally slip by and slab"? If a fake slipped by, you would not know about it unless someone returned it. Right?
I remember a few years ago when I had a table at a show in Cleveland. We had a few counterfeit Indian quarter eagles in our case and a guy walked up and wanted to buy them. We chatted for awhile and it turned out that he collected counterfeit gold coins. He was very knowledgeable and gave us some pointers on counterfeit detection and diagnostics for certain issues. The most memorable aspect of that conversation, however, was when he pointed out a few PCGS certified quarter eagles on the bourse floor that were counterfeits. He said that he sees them at every show and in all TGP holders (not just PCGS). Had a similar conversation with Allan Gifford (he wrote a treatise on three cent nickels). He informed me that he sees many business strike three centers in top-tier holders that are actually lower valued proofs.
www.brunkauctions.com
By vaguely I mean things like 1972 DDO cents that are attributed without the die number. Big differance between the lesser ones and the big one! Then on ebay the sellers quote the PCGS price guide or RB for the big one instead of the one they are selling.
<< <i>Good points Dennis......in your first example where the gold quar. eagle is counterfeit the TPG must make the owner whole; howerver in the second example (3CN) could the TPG claim "mechanical error" or "label error" to dodge liability?? just a thought >>
Usually the price for counterfeit Indian gold is similar to genuine to common date, commercial Unc. pieces, so there usually isn't a big financial problem unless a counterfiet piece is graded at MS63 or higher. The issue with the three cent nickels is that the TPGs will accept their original opinion over Gifford's opinion because they do not recognize him as an expert, even though he wrote a 500 page book after many years of research on the subject.
<< <i>There was once an owner of a TPG that was at a show. A collector brought them a slab with a 1916 Mercury in it that HAD a "D" mintmark glued to it and had fallen off inside the slab. the collector handed it to the TPG owner and brought it to their attention. the onwer turned around and cracked the slab right there. When their back was turned the collector heard the slab cracking and asked what they were doing. the TPG owner turned around and presented the owner with their now RAW 1916 Mercury Dime.
<< <i>
<< <i>There was once an owner of a TPG that was at a show. A collector brought them a slab with a 1916 Mercury in it that HAD a "D" mintmark glued to it and had fallen off inside the slab. the collector handed it to the TPG owner and brought it to their attention. the onwer turned around and cracked the slab right there. When their back was turned the collector heard the slab cracking and asked what they were doing. the TPG owner turned around and presented the owner with their now RAW 1916 Mercury Dime.
we need more details. it sounds like a made up story. i see no reason
why you cannot name the tpg, the owner, and the collector if true.
truth of what you witnessed is not libel or slander.
I heard smoething about a gold-foil chocolate coin that made it into a slab................
lol
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There was once an owner of a TPG that was at a show. A collector brought them a slab with a 1916 Mercury in it that HAD a "D" mintmark glued to it and had fallen off inside the slab. the collector handed it to the TPG owner and brought it to their attention. the onwer turned around and cracked the slab right there. When their back was turned the collector heard the slab cracking and asked what they were doing. the TPG owner turned around and presented the owner with their now RAW 1916 Mercury Dime.
we need more details. it sounds like a made up story. i see no reason
why you cannot name the tpg, the owner, and the collector if true.
truth of what you witnessed is not libel or slander. >>
I heard that story as well from several bigtime dealers. It was ACG and this was many, many years ago (relatively speaking).
I heard smoething about a gold-foil chocolate coin that made it into a slab................
That is also true, but from what I hear it was done just as a joke as nobody would be fooled. Just a gag.
<< <i>Have you ever had a coin graded by the tpg's that was a fake? >>
I sure hope not, but I'll bet there are more out there than people think. A few posts here indicate that's the case.
<< <i>
<< <i>Have you ever had a coin graded by the tpg's that was a fake? >>
I sure hope not, but I'll bet there are more out there than people think. A few posts here indicate that's the case. >>
Damn an old thread and a member I never saw on here that has 75,000+ threads. Hiya hoya my name is Yaha and no one likes me here.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Have you ever had a coin graded by the tpg's that was a fake? >>
I sure hope not, but I'll bet there are more out there than people think. A few posts here indicate that's the case. >>
Damn an old thread and a member I never saw on here that has 75,000+ threads. Hiya hoya my name is Yaha and no one likes me here. >>
Hi, YaHa.
I used to post a lot at one time. Well, for several years I posted a lot. Now I'm embarrassed by it.
I didn't realize it was an old thread. I'd searched for something and walked away from the computer for a while. When I returned, I started reading this thread and answered it, not knowing it was an old thread that showed up in search results.
<< <i>There was once an owner of a TPG that was at a show. A collector brought them a slab with a 1916 Mercury in it that HAD a "D" mintmark glued to it and had fallen off inside the slab. the collector handed it to the TPG owner and brought it to their attention. the onwer turned around and cracked the slab right there. When their back was turned the collector heard the slab cracking and asked what they were doing. the TPG owner turned around and presented the owner with their now RAW 1916 Mercury Dime.
Great story!