A way to protect yourself from Paypal/eBay
Greeniejr
Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
Up until now I have had no problem with the terrible two however all good things must come to an end. We sold a guy a coin on July 4th which he promptly paid for via Paypal. On July 7th we sent the coin (worth about $100) out via USPS insured mail (BIG MISTAKE). On July 18th the buyer claimed that he did not receive the item which knowing the post office is completely possible and created a Paypal dispute. I provided him with the necesarry information and he has decided that he is going to escalate this into a full claim where eBay... I mean Paypal is going to be making the decision. I am sure he knows that since we sent it via USPS without delivery confirm that we are out of luck in Paypal's eyes. Thats the background.
I spent about an hour on the phone tonight with a supervisor at Paypal brainstorming a solution which returns the onus to the buyer. What they said is that if we send Paypal a copy of the insured slip, they can send us an email with the case number, the insured number, the buyers information and the date of the postmark. After Paypal would find against us, we would then get an email saying that they found against us because we cannot confirm delivery. Taking those two documents into account, we have statements with matching case numbers, the name of the buyer etc, and the fact that they claim they didn't recieve the item, we can file a claim with completely clean hands with the post office that the item was lost. If it wasnt, the person has the item, their money and the possibility of a fraud charge if the post office ever got a hold of it.
Thoughts?
I spent about an hour on the phone tonight with a supervisor at Paypal brainstorming a solution which returns the onus to the buyer. What they said is that if we send Paypal a copy of the insured slip, they can send us an email with the case number, the insured number, the buyers information and the date of the postmark. After Paypal would find against us, we would then get an email saying that they found against us because we cannot confirm delivery. Taking those two documents into account, we have statements with matching case numbers, the name of the buyer etc, and the fact that they claim they didn't recieve the item, we can file a claim with completely clean hands with the post office that the item was lost. If it wasnt, the person has the item, their money and the possibility of a fraud charge if the post office ever got a hold of it.
Thoughts?
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Comments
That's another reason not to use PayPal. Even if the Post Office allows your claim, which they should - you will be out the money for the duration, simply because PayPal is involved. And you will be dealing with two sluggish bureaucracies, instead of one.
I knew it would happen.
a) It's your responsibility to get the item to the buyer. If I were the buyer, I would have waited more than 11 days, but it is what it is. If he didn't get it, and you can't prove that he did, then he didn't get it.
b) For Paypal's seller protection policy to be effective, you MUST use Delivery Confirmation on items less than $250, and Signature Confirmation on items more than $250. You did neither in this case.
c) Just chalk it up to experience, and you'll know to make sure to use Delivery Confirmation in the future.
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<< <i>Why not wait the requisite 30 days and then file an insurance claim with the Post Office? That's what the insurance is for.
That's another reason not to use PayPal. Even if the Post Office allows your claim, which they should - you will be out the money for the duration, simply because PayPal is involved. And you will be dealing with two sluggish bureaucracies, instead of one. >>
What he's saying is that if the buyer actually did receive the item, he can't prove that since he didn't get delivery confirmation. And, if it was delivered, he can't file a claim with the USPS since it was delivered. He'd then be out the item, and have no recourse with USPS or Paypal.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Why not wait the requisite 30 days and then file an insurance claim with the Post Office? That's what the insurance is for.
That's another reason not to use PayPal. Even if the Post Office allows your claim, which they should - you will be out the money for the duration, simply because PayPal is involved. And you will be dealing with two sluggish bureaucracies, instead of one. >>
What he's saying is that if the buyer actually did receive the item, he can't prove that since he didn't get delivery confirmation. And, if it was delivered, he can't file a claim with the USPS since it was delivered. He'd then be out the item, and have no recourse with USPS or Paypal. >>
This is providing us with recourse against a broken system. You are 100% right. According to their rules, as a seller we are wrong. However the system is broken. Delivery confirmation is a cost neither the buyers or sellers want to bare. Insurance which we use no matter what should be more than sufficient if you are dealing with honest buyers or at least dont have Paypal to facilitate fraud. All I am saying is that this fills that gap that if you play your cards right you get matching statements that the item was in fact shipped to said person and that person claims they did not receive it. If the post office wants to investigate it, it is completely on the person who claims he didnt recieve it. This is merely a fix to the problem
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A Delivery Confirmation ticket showing as "delivered," does NOT preclude
a successful USPS insurance claim.
Upon affidavit and investigation, the "delivered" status can be changed to "LOST."
An insurance claim can then be filed. The USPS knows that mistakes are made in DC.
Voice of Experience speaking.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why not wait the requisite 30 days and then file an insurance claim with the Post Office? That's what the insurance is for.
That's another reason not to use PayPal. Even if the Post Office allows your claim, which they should - you will be out the money for the duration, simply because PayPal is involved. And you will be dealing with two sluggish bureaucracies, instead of one. >>
What he's saying is that if the buyer actually did receive the item, he can't prove that since he didn't get delivery confirmation. And, if it was delivered, he can't file a claim with the USPS since it was delivered. He'd then be out the item, and have no recourse with USPS or Paypal. >>
Either he got the coin or he didn't. He can't get it per one tracking system/ins and not get it per another system or lack of another system/DC. If the insurance tracking number says it was received then he got it and is engaging in fraud. I'd be talking with the postal people about this and maybe let him know as well.
edit: BTW, the delivery confirmation is only .18. you're willing to pay USPS outrageous insurance rates and don't want to pay $.18?
I know people have laughed and mocked me for using UPS, telling me instead to just print out a Post Office sticker but, seriously, UPS has saved my butt a few times already.
The Post Office is far cheaper than UPS... until you have a problem.
It's amazing how fast the bidder suddenly finds the missing coin when I give them the tracking number!
<< <i>This is exactly the reason I use UPS... they have tracking.
I know people have laughed and mocked me for using UPS, telling me instead to just print out a Post Office sticker but, seriously, UPS has saved my butt a few times already.
The Post Office is far cheaper than UPS... until you have a problem.
It's amazing how fast the bidder suddenly finds the missing coin when I give them the tracking number! >>
They actually paid you on a claim for lost coins?!?
morris
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
<< <i>UPS will not let me ship "coins", you got a claim paid from UPS? >>
He never said that he was paid on a claim by UPS, only that when presented the UPS tracking number showing it was delivered the buyer suddenly realized that he had no basis for a claim.
This is a newbie mistake. Not PayPal's fault. Not eBay's fault.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>And the reason the OP didn't pay 18 cents for Delivery Confirmation so he would be covered by PayPal's Seller Protection Policy is?....
This is a newbie mistake. Not PayPal's fault. Not eBay's fault. >>
DC is a lot more than $.18 if you buy it OTC at the PO. The other thing is the USPS tracking number will show it was delivered. It may not satisfy PP, but it will satisfy the USPS in a fraud/mail fraud case. I'd go after the buyer one way or the other for mail fraud.
So does the post office if you buy the correct options. Now for UPS good luck because if they ever lose your package with insurance and you tell them it's a collectable they will not pay at all, they love taking peoples money. I can't tell you how many post I've seen on the Watch board about members losing thousands of dollars trying to make a claim. Be careful if it's of value.
<< <i>I thought you had to have signature confirmation for any sale. Did they recently lower the requirements so you just need delivery confirmation for items under $250. >>
It's been like that for years .... delivery confirmation for anything under $250 ..... signature confirmation for anything over $250.01