Who would you kick out of the Hall of Fame?

11235813 · July 17, 2008 6:28AM

Since the thread on who should be in the HOF has been a lot of fun, thought I'd flip the issue on it's head and ask who you think should be kicked out of the HOF?

Before state my list, let me explain my reasoning. To start with, I'm not a big fan of people who get in simply because of longevity. To me, you need to have been a dominant player at some point in your career, not just pretty good for a long time. To me, if you never won a MVP or Cy Young (indicating that you were the dominant player in your league for at least one year), never led your league in a Triple Crown categories (HR, RBI, AVG, ERA, K), and weren't an All-Star in at least half the seasons you played (fewer for starting pitchers since their all-star spot were often given to relievers), you probably shouldn't be in the HOF.

To me, a Hall of Famer should be so good that their election is a no-brainer. If we need to debate their merits over several years, then they probably shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. To that extent, I'd raise the election threshold from 75% to 90% and reduce the number of years on the ballot from fifteen to three.

So here are the players I'd kick out (I've limited myself to players elected after 1980, since that's the era I know best). Note that none were elected with more than 90% of the vote.

Gaylord Perry
Fergie Jenkins
Catfish Hunter
Don Drysdale
Juan Marichal
Don Sutton
Phil Niekro
Hoyt Wilhelm

All of these guys were very good, but rarely truly dominant.

Goose Gossage
Bruce Sutter
Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers

I'm not big on closers because I don't think that there is anything all that special about pitching one or two shutout innings every few days. The fact that it's not that difficult is demonstrated by the fact that there are tons of journeyman middle relievers who have become effective closers.

Paul Molitor (only was an all-star in 7 out of 21 seasons, never won an MVP, only finished in top three of MVP race once)
Eddie Murray (only was an all-star in 8 our of 21 seasons, never won an MVP, only lead league in HR/RBI once)
Dave Winfield (never won MVP, only lead league in a Triple Crown category once)
Carlton Fisk (never won an MVP or title in a Triple Crown category, in fact only finished in the top 10 in a Triple Crown Category seven times in 24 seasons)
Tony Perez (only was an all-star in 7 out of 23 seasons, only finished in top six of MVP voting once, never won a title in a Triple Crown category)
Robin Yount (a tricky case in that he won two MVP's, but was only an All-Star in 3 out of 20 seasons, and never won a title in a Triple Crown category)
Willie Stargell (only was an all-star in 7 out of 21 seasons)
Billy Williams (only was an all-star in 6 out of 18 seasons, finished in top six of MVP voting only twice, only won one title in a Triple Crown category)

As to recently retired players and currently active players over 35, only seven are truly HOF-worthy in my opinion: Rickey Henderson, Ken Griffey, Barry Bonds, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, and Greg Maddux.

Let the debating begin.....

mtcards · July 17, 2008 6:39AM

I think if they changed the process of getting in, many of the people you listed would not be in. I think there should be 2 per year from regular voting and 1 for veterans voting. Too many players with questionable careers in terms of performance are getting in. I agree with the closer issue. Closers, set up men, long relief, etc, are aboslutely a modern event with todays "money" players being too fragile to pitch too many innings.

CDsNuts · July 17, 2008 6:41AM

Eddie Murray, Carlton Fisk, Willie Stargell and Robin Yount? Are you on crack? Did you watch any baseball in the 70s/80s? Why not just add Cal Ripken and George Brett while you're at it.

The others listed you could make a decent argument for each. You should also add Frank Thomas, Arod, Irod and Roberto Alomar to the list. Irod and Alomar were the best players at their position for an entire era.

billwaltonsbeard · July 17, 2008 6:46AM

I've never heard of these players. They must have played back in the dark ages or something. All I know is Josh Hamilton, Jay Bruce and Joba Chamberlain are definitely getting in. Oh yeah, and Johnny Cueto!

fur72 · July 17, 2008 6:49AM

Steve Garvey, oh I though this was the who would u kick the crap out of at the hall of fame.

Stingray · July 17, 2008 6:51AM

You seem to be generalizing things too much. It is not a matter of how many HR or RBI titles they won in their careers.

lawnmowerman · July 17, 2008 6:53AM

<< Carlton Fisk (never won an MVP or title in a Triple Crown category, in fact only finished in the top 10 in a Triple Crown Category seven times in 24 seasons) >>

You forgot to mention 11 all star appearances, 351 homers while playing the most demanding position on the field.

Pretty good if you ask me and surely hof material

billwaltonsbeard · July 17, 2008 6:53AM

<< You seem to be generalizing things too much. It is not a matter of how many HR or RBI titles they won in their careers. >>

you're right. Where they played and how nice they were to the media also play major roles.

fiveniner · July 17, 2008 6:55AM

No one!!!!!!!!!

perkdog · July 17, 2008 6:56AM

Could you imagine if Hoopster ( Skinpinch) or Dallasactuary ventured over to this thread?

brianwintersfan · July 17, 2008 6:57AM

And all-star appearances don't mean all that much to me. Now while Fisk was good one catcher that should be there that isn't is Ted Simmons. Run his stats and you will see he just as good if not better.

WinPitcher · July 17, 2008 7:09AM

Of all the people that have suited up less then 1% have made it into the HOF

Are some marginal guys in? Sure, but then again not everyone is Babe Ruth.

Guys like Drysdale and Marichal to name a couple on your list deserve to be enshrined.

To answer your question I wouldn't kick anyone out.

Steve

CDsNuts · July 17, 2008 7:10AM

perk- you're right. The last thing we need is people chiming in with field biases and made up stats they invented.

swartz1 · July 17, 2008 7:24AM

Bill Mazerokski

11235813 · July 17, 2008 7:25AM

<< Eddie Murray, Carlton Fisk, Willie Stargell and Robin Yount? Are you on crack? Did you watch any baseball in the 70s/80s? Why not just add Cal Ripken and George Brett while you're at it. >>

Lee, yes I watched quite a bit of baseball in the 70's/80's, and no, I'm not on crack.

Fisk, while an excellent catcher, is in because of his longevity and his famous home run in the 1975 World Series. He only hit 30+ homers once (1985), only drove in 90+ runs twice (1977 and 1985), and only hit over .300 for a full season once (1977). His career BA of .269 is one of the lowest in the HOF. Only twice did he even finish in the top five of the MVP voting, and he only won one Golden Glove.

Murray is another who is in because of his longevity. The fact that even though he never won he finished in the top five of the MVP voting six times is a strong argument for his inclusion, , but to me the fact that he only was an all-star in 8 out of 21 seasons tells me that while very good, he was never truly dominant.

Stargell had three very good years from 1971-1973, but the fact that he was only an All-Star in 7 out of 21 seasons tells me that he was never considered the best at his position over a significant period of time.

Yount is another longevity guy. He won those two MVP's in 1982 and 1989 (of course Dale Murphy and Roger Maris each won two MVP's as well), but I can't get around the fact that he was only an all-star in just 3 out of 20 seasons.

As to your modern guys, I agree with you on Roberto Alomar, would take Piazza over IRod, and disagree with you on Frank Thomas because he was horrible defensively and played most of his career as a DH.

11235813 · July 17, 2008 7:30AM

Steve,

As a Giants fan I'm the biggest Marichal supporter out there, but not only did he never win a Cy Young, he never even received a single vote for the Cy Young! As good as he was, during the prime of his career, he was probably the fourth best pitcher in his league (behind Gibson, Koufax, and Drysdale), only played in one World Series, and only won 213 games because his career was so short. Very good, to be sure, but not good enough in my book.

brianwintersfan · July 17, 2008 7:37AM

<< Yount is another longevity guy. He won those two MVP's in 1982 and 1989 (of course Dale Murphy and Roger Maris each won two MVP's as well), but I can't get around the fact that he was only an all-star in just 3 out of 20 seasons. >>

Players should not be punished for having long careers. Also the AS game and balloting have always been a popularity contest. The fact that he played in Milwaukee had a lot to do with it.

SDSportsFan · July 17, 2008 7:42AM

First, your reliance on MVP voting is flawed. Many players never won an MVP award, simply because they were on losing teams (or at least teams that didn't win their division/league pennant). For many years, the MVP voters operated under the policy that only players on teams that won their division/league pennant could possibly be an "MVP". Their thought process was basically "how valuable could a player really be if their team didn't win". Also, they ruled out pitchers from winning the MVP award since pitchers didn't play every day, and pitchers already were considered for the Cy Young Award (with the exception of relievers, since until 1981, only starters received real consideration for the Cy Young Award). This kept Billy Williams from winning MVP Awards, since the Cubs never won. It also kept Rollie Fingers from winning the Cy Young Award until 1981. Keep in mind also, that until the 1990's, baseball didn't have "middle relievers". The starter went as far as possible, and then the closer came in; whether it was in the 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th inning. It was routine for the closer (Fingers, Gossage, Wilhelm, Eckersley and Sutter) to pitch 2-3+ innings at a time, many times on consecutive days. It wasn't like today, where Mariano Rivera comes in in the 9th inning and faces three or fewer batters for the save). The closer had to pitch to the entire opposing lineup, over multiple innings, to get the save. Fingers, Gossage, Eckersley and Sutter all finished their careers with over 300 saves, having pitched in an era where 30 saves in a season was a lot (this was also before the current mind-set where the starter can only go 6-7 innings. Most starters finished what they began, and didn't need a reliever!)

Also, voting for the All-Star Game was based on fan voting. Obviously, players on teams with higher attendance got the most votes, since too many fans voted (in some cases hundreds of times each) for their favorite players, instead of the "best" players. Teams actually had All-Star Voting Parties, where they would hand out dozens of ballots to each fan, and have the fans vote for the hometown players. Under this system, Steve Garvey was named to many All-Star Games, since the Dodgers lead the league in attendance nearly every year. This kept Willie Stargell from getting into more games. Also, Billy Williams was competing against Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente every year.

Additionally, it's not an "all or nothing" system. You seem to believe that only players who finish first in the yearly statistics should make the Hall of Fame. Well, how about when a player who leads the league in homers once, batting average once, and finishes second/third in RBIs, batting average or home runs say six or seven times (because they're competing against a player like Mike Schmidt (who won eight home run titles), Dave Kingman (if Schmidt didn't win the homer title, Kingman did), Tony Gwynn (who won eight batting titles), Wade Boggs (five batting titles) or Rod Carew (seven batting titles). Should that player be excluded from HOF consideration just because they had the misfortune of having to compete against a "monster"? I don't think so!

You must also consider defensive accomplishments. I note that you didn't list Ozzie Smith in your post. If ANYONE was inducted solely because of his defensive contributions, it was Ozzie. Carlton Fisk was the absolute BEST catcher in the American League practically his entire career! He was his league's answer to Johnny Bench. He also broke the all-time Major League records for most games played and home runs by a catcher. To say that Fisk doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame is preposterous!

Lastly, many of the players you listed finished their careers, having achieved a "MAJOR" milestone such as 300 wins, 3,000 strikeouts, 3,000 hits or 500 home runs. This includes Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins (also had seven 20-win seasons, and was the first pitcher to reach 3,000 strikeouts with fewer than 1,000 walks - Greg Maddux is the second), Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Eddie Murray, Paul Molitor, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount.

Each of the players you listed may not have finished first in a major category very often, but they were CONSISTENTLY among the Top-5/10. That CONSISTENCY and overall accomplishments warrant their Hall of Fame induction.

So, in a nutshell, while I respect your opinion, your entire post is misguided, and shows a perceived lack of understanding of how the game is (or at least was) played in previous years. I suggest you study baseball history before you make posts like the one in this thread.

Steve

GDM67 · July 17, 2008 8:08AM

I have never heard a "small hall" argument that had the slightest validity. Anyone who saw ANY of the men you list play knows that they all belong.

If anything, the place is too exclusive. BWF's point about Ted Simmons is well taken. He's one of several people who are absurdly absent from Cooperstown.

WinPitcher · July 17, 2008 8:08AM

If he wants to rely on MVP voting that is where Marichal has his strenght.

Also, He did have a Cy Young vote in 1971.

For most of his career only 1 CY Young award was given out and a guy named Koufax would get it.

His 2.89 lifetime ERA the fact he won 18 or more games 9 times I think all add up to a bonafide HOF.

Anyway I'm done with this thread as it is basically all opinion and thankfully no one here
had or has a vote.

Steve

VitoCo1972 · July 17, 2008 8:15AM

Phil Rizzuto (even though I know Ted Williams was his biggest supporter).

stevek · July 17, 2008 8:22AM

The basic problem with the Hall of Fame is they're letting in "excellent" players instead of only letting in "great" players. But it's all about the money so whatayagonado?

fkw · July 17, 2008 8:38AM

You have some of the best ball players of the last 40 years on your list.

Some are just crazy, Marichal..... come on.

Texoma · July 17, 2008 8:51AM

Landis--kept blacks out of baseball for half a century. Yeah he slapped a lifetime ban on Jackson, so what? Any idiot would have done that. Might as well honor a man for not robbing a bank.

11235813 · July 17, 2008 8:58AM

Look guys....I started this thread to simulate debate, not because I absolutely believe everything I said 100%.

But I'll be honest...I do think that the HOF has too many players in it and that there are quite a few players in it, who while very good over long periods of time, are not among the greatest ever, which is what I think the HOF should be. It should be for the very best players of each generation.

To me, it should be drop dead obvious whether or not someone is a HOFer. Either they are or they are not. If you're not sure, or if there can be reasonable arguments made as to why they are not quite good enough to be in the HOF, then they probably shouldn't be in. That's why I think the voting requirements should be much tougher (90% and three years on the ballot). No offense, but if it takes someone 10+ years to eke in with just over 75%, it's pretty clear that they were not considered to be among the greatest ever!

To those who criticize my usage of All-Star game elections as a criteria, keep in mind that from 1958-1969, there was no fan voting, and that since 1970, selection of all-star reserves has been done by managers and fellow players. not the fans. So while you can blame lack of all-star starting appearances on relative popularity, you cannot blame lack of all-star appearances in general (which is the statistic I used) on anything except percieved lack of talent. So when someone like Robin Yount fails to be selected by either fans OR managers, as either a starter or as a reserve, in 17 out of his 20 years, I have a hard time reaching the conclusion that he was one of the greatest players of his generation.

rajah424 · July 17, 2008 9:01AM

When each team has to have a player represented that means some deserving players will get left off.

Ironmanfan · July 17, 2008 9:11AM

Bill Mazeroski would be first; his election was the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to the Veteran's Committe changes

Overrated · July 17, 2008 9:17AM

Kick willie mays out! nothing butt a A$$..

digicat · July 17, 2008 10:12AM

<< Kick willie mays out! nothing butt a A$$.. >>

If you kicked guys out of the HoF for being occasional jerks, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, and Joe DiMaggio would have to go too.

SDSportsFan · July 17, 2008 10:16AM

<< 

<< Kick willie mays out! nothing butt a A$$.. >>

If you kicked guys out of the HoF for being occasional jerks, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, and Joe DiMaggio would have to go too. >>

Cap Anson (racist), Babe Ruth (womanizer) and Steve Carlton (refused to talk to the press) also!!

Steve

julen23 · July 17, 2008 10:17AM

good point sir.

i'd rather b an ass than a nice guy that finished last.

j

sayheykid54 · July 17, 2008 10:17AM

Easy.. Joe Morgan.

julen23 · July 17, 2008 10:27AM

kick joe morgan out of HOF?

bull -ish

j

PoppaJ · July 17, 2008 10:31AM

Does it have to be a player? If not, I vote to kick out these 2 unsupervised kids

Leiascards · July 17, 2008 10:42AM

Mazeroski is the one and only one that should not be in there IMHO.

If based on personality and my general opinion of the guy MANTLE...

JackWESQ · July 17, 2008 10:51AM

This should cause some controversy (and I'm probably alone on an island on this one), but I'd kick out Sandy Koufax ... among others.

/s/ JackWESQ

julen23 · July 17, 2008 10:57AM

maz is legitimate ex-HOF . . .

nomar heads the ball far.
how far?
wicked faaaaaar

j

ArchStanton · July 17, 2008 11:32AM

Bill Mazeroski should be in the Hall on his defensive play alone. Being the greatest World Series hero of all time is just the icing on the cake.

stevek · July 17, 2008 11:38AM

<< Bill Mazeroski should be in the Hall on his defensive play alone. Being the greatest World Series hero of all time is just the icing on the cake. >>

Saying Mazeroski was a great defensive 2nd baseman to me is like saying he was the tallest midget in the circus - He should NOT be in the Hall of Fame.

VitoCo1972 · July 17, 2008 11:39AM

Here's the question we need to be asking ourselves. If we did a Hall of Fame fantasy draft of MLB players only (can't use negro leaguers because it's hard to quantify) that had to fill entire rosters of all positions, who would be the last few selections? Tell me that would be a crazy-fun game. I would have to imagine Rizzuto and Mazeroski would be taken last.

JackWESQ · July 17, 2008 11:42AM

Fielding is not defense. Pitching, e.g, preventing your opponent from scoring runs, is defense. As such, Mazeroski should not be in the Hall of Fame or any other player based upon his ability to field a batted ball.

/s/ JackWESQ

JackWESQ · July 17, 2008 11:45AM

<< Hall of Fame fantasy draft >>

... I assume Ruth would have eligibility as an Outfielder and a Pitcher ... making him even more of an obvious number one overall selection.

/s/ JackWESQ

Leiascards · July 17, 2008 11:53AM

I also beg to differ about Maz being the greatest World Series Hero of all time.

Many(outside Boston) call Bill Buckner the greatest of all time. What about Don Larsen, Kirk Gibson the list can go on and on and NONE of these players are close toe HOF caliber

ArchStanton · July 17, 2008 11:56AM

Oh... that's it. None of you know anything about baseball. I'm quitting the hobby and firing my collection manager. Are you happy now? There's one more unemployed person out there and one more psychotic roaming the streets mumbling obscenities and batting averages to himself. I hope all of you Maz-haters are happy with yourselves. I have to go now and switch my linens to the rubber sheets, because I'm certain all of this stress and heartache will cause me to wet the bed.

***edited to add my photo

Leiascards · July 17, 2008 12:03PM

Guess the truth hurts..

Ironmanfan · July 17, 2008 12:23PM

Rich Dauer was better defensively than Mazeroski and just because he never hit a home run in the 7th game of any World Series you never hear anything about him

grote15 · July 17, 2008 12:24PM

Phil Rizuuto, as much as I liked him personally. Don Sutton, too.

grote15 · July 17, 2008 12:26PM

I'd also agree with Catfish Hunter, too,

summerof68 · July 17, 2008 1:19PM

I believe as well with the writer of this thread that the hall-of-fame should be reserved for the "greats" of the game and not excellent players. It should be a very tight-nit group where only the best of the best are allowed. Unfortunately everything in our society is being "watered down" and major-league baseball is no exception.
I will however say that Roger Maris made a much larger impact on baseball history & folklore than inductees like Winfield and Stargell ever did. And considering that cheaters and liars like Mcgwire, Sosa & Bonds stole and diminished his accomplishments I feel more than ever Maris rightfully belongs!!!

Clemaz · July 17, 2008 1:26PM

<< Fielding is not defense. Pitching, e.g, preventing your opponent from scoring runs, is defense. As such, Mazeroski should not be in the Hall of Fame >>

\

Based on your theory you would have to kick Ozzie Smith out as well.

BobaFett72 · July 17, 2008 1:50PM

well i guess you got the response you wanted: to put it simply, you sir are an Idiot

(for the most part) some of your choices are valid, so someone may call ME an idiot, thats half the fun. Seriously some of your choices are ludicrious...because someone was ONLY an all star x number of years? what if someone was consistently in the top 10 in several categories year after year, but didnt lead? thats not excellence?

Gaylord Perry- 317 wins, 2 cy youngs (one in each league) a billion complete games 50+ Shutouts...get real

Fergie Jenkins-Not even close: HOF 7 time 20 game winner for the CUBS no less! he should be annointed a god.

Catfish Hunter- overrated, but deserves his spot.

Don Drysdale- 9 time all star in 14 seasons; truly dominant & appeared on the brady bunch!

Juan Marichal: Are you serious? a lock
Don Sutton- 3500+ K's top 10 in shutouts... a lock.

Phil Niekro- 3000K's top 10 in CG's top 30 in shutouts

Hoyt Wilhelm-the first relief pitcher to be inducted in the Hall of Fame and one of the greatest knuckleballers of all time, didnt start playing in the big leagues till he was 29!

All of these guys were very good, but rarely truly dominant.

Goose Gossage: i think a lot of batters would disagree
Bruce Sutter: i concur; give back his plaque
Dennis Eckersley: Deserves it.
Rollie Fingers: Ditto

Paul Molitor (ONLY?? was an all-star in 7 out of 21 seasons, 3000 Hits, could had 4000 if he wasnt injured

Eddie Murray (ONLY??was an all-star in 8 our of 21 seasons, never won an MVP, only lead league in HR/RBI once) ahem; the BEST player in the AL for a good long time.

Ill stop, because there are a lot of other players who truly suck, like Phil Rizzuto who dont belong in the hall of fame.

Who would you kick out of the Hall of Fame?

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