I don't usually chime in on the Thomas bashing, but I will this time.
Fortunately for Frank Thomas and his fans, 11235813 isn't a HOF voter. Not having Thomas on the list of HOF hitters is a travesty...he was absolutely the best hitter of the '90s and has amazing career numbers for both power and consistency. He's a selfless hitter with an amazing career.
<< <i>Alomar has one of the best baseball minds to ever play the game and his offensive stats are every bit as good as Ryno's. He also made 12 all star games in a row and was the best all around player on two World Series winning teams. He was far from a defensive specialist. I'm not sure how he would not be considered a lock by anyone. >>
If it wasn't for the spitting incident, he would be a first ballot...i say he makes it 2nd time around.
<< <i>I don't usually chime in on the Thomas bashing, but I will this time.
Fortunately for Frank Thomas and his fans, 11235813 isn't a HOF voter. Not having Thomas on the list of HOF hitters is a travesty...he was absolutely the best hitter of the '90s and has amazing career numbers for both power and consistency. He's a selfless hitter with an amazing career. >>
Plus Thomas did it clean. I think in a few years, more people will be on the Frank Thomas bandwagon kind of the way people have recently gotten back on Griffey's. These are both guys who were long ball threats throughout their whole careers and never had any kind of rumor or speculation of any wrong doing.
<< <i>Plus Thomas did it clean. I think in a few years, more people will be on the Frank Thomas bandwagon kind of the way people have recently gotten back on Griffey's. These are both guys who were long ball threats throughout their whole careers and never had any kind of rumor or speculation of any wrong doing. >>
Very true. I more than conceed that Griffey was the better all around player, without a doubt. But he and Thomas both standout as guys who did it well and guys who did it right.
<< <i>I am about due a dump as well, better post a scan of it.
>>
you doo in every one of your posts...your sig is the most annoying crap on the entire message board I think i will start putting it in all my messages too...
I love the fact that guys like 11254395734853785 will knock a guy like Thomas because he was not a great defender, but don't consider great defense as a determining factor. Anything a guy does on the field determines his worth as a player. I'm willing to forgive Thomas' lack of defensive prowess because he was, along with Griffey, one of the first monsters at the plate who put up amazing power numbers and average as well. The only reason his cards didn't maintain a high level is because guys like Arod and Pujols came along and put up even better numbers and overshadowed what Thomas did in the beginning of his career.
It's sad when players begin to age and they stop putting up big numbers, and how many fans abandon them. As the players get older, the fans get older, and the younger fans start spouting off negativity about the older generation's heros... It seems they have to retire to keep their respect...just good stats aren't good enough.
<< <i>All this discussion/debate is great, but what CU really needs is a place to talk about Sports Cards & Memorabilia. Maybe they should start a forum... >>
When was the last time you discussed cards...including this post? I would bet if one would search your last 100 messages, 10 may be about cards.
<< <i>All this discussion/debate is great, but what CU really needs is a place to talk about Sports Cards & Memorabilia. Maybe they should start a forum... >>
When was the last time you discussed cards...including this post? I would bet if one would search your last 100 messages, 10 may be about cards. >>
Why don't you give that a try? You may be surprised.
<< <i>Anyone in love with a .274 career hitter already has issues.
BTW, Gantner was juicing in 1983. Combined 14 homers in previous 5 seasons then busts out for 11 in one season? Where is Senator Mitchell? >>
..."in love with" might be a little heavy...but call it whatever you want. There's more to the game than a baseball bat. If you saw the all-star game, I bet the National League would wish they had Gantner at 2nd instead of Uggla.
Was just joking. The last 80's rip I did, I thought about you every time I found a Gantner. Think I pulled about 30 various Gantners from 1981 to 1986. Why couldn't they have been Ryans or even Murphys (my childhood idol)? Whcih brings us back to the original topic. If there was a HOF for character, Murphy and my other baseball idol Mattingly would be locks.
Sorry to tout another LSU guy, but if Puckett got in just because health cut his career short, then why isn't Albert Belle in the hall? Since they were both playing at the same time, I assure you any pitcher that faced them both would rather have pitched to Pucket than Belle. On a different note, Belle still has a lot of family here and I saw him 4th of July weekend at a fireworks warehouse. I was scared his temper would set the place on fire.
"All this discussion/debate is great, but what CU really needs is a place to talk about Sports Cards & Memorabilia. Maybe they should start a forum... "
all thats over there is Pets and Sillies fans contstantly berating each other.
<< <i> love the fact that guys like 11254395734853785 will knock a guy like Thomas because he was not a great defender, but don't consider great defense as a determining factor >>
Lee, if you don't like my criteria, then why don't you post your own.
Look, I think the HOF should be for the GREATEST players ever, not just very good ones, and should therefore be much more exculsive than it is. I realize that many people disagree with that stance, which is fine, but then instead of just criticizing my belief that cetain individuals should not be in the HOF, read my arguments carefully and post a counterargument to discuss.
If you read my last long post on this thread, I stated that I don't think one-dimensional players should be in the HOF unless they were heads and shoulders above other players of their generation. That's why a lot of the defensive wizards who were not good on offense don't make my HOF. Frank Thomas is the epitomy of a one-dimensional player. He was indeed one of the dominant hitters in baseball for several years, but the fact that he can't run, throw, or field and spent most of his career as a DH disqualifies him in my book. He was a very good hitter, but he doesn't meet my criteria for being one of the greatest ever.
<< <i>........ I don't think one-dimensional players should be in the HOF unless they were heads and shoulders above other players of their generation. ... He was a very good hitter, but he doesn't meet my criteria for being one of the greatest ever. >>
I would say frank is one of the 20 greatest hitters ever...
Here is why someone like Paul Molitor is in the HOF... and why your arguments, criteria et.al are pure bullspit.
Molitor is one of the more underrated players in baseball history. There is a lot to like about his career accomplishments. He had 3,319 hits which is 9th on the all-time list. Molitor is also 11th on the all-time doubles list and 19th all-time in runs. Even more impressive is that Molitor is one of only four players in MLB history to reach 3,000 hits, 500 SBs, with a batting average above .300. The other three are Ty Cob, Honus Wagner, and Eddie Collins. Molitor is the only player to accomplish that in the last 80+ years. Molitor’s career is impressive enough from his regular season statistics alone. His postseason accolades make him more impressive, yet. In 117 postseason at-bats, Molitor hit .368 with a 1.050 OPS. In 66 World Series at-bats, he hit .418 with a 1.111 OPS. Molitor has the highest batting average in World Series history (min. 60 at-bats) and the highest batting average in playoff history (min. 100 at-bats). Molitor’s postseason success won him the 1993 World Series MVP.
<< <i>Here is why someone like Paul Molitor is in the HOF... and why your arguments, criteria et.al are pure bullspit.
Molitor is one of the more underrated players in baseball history. There is a lot to like about his career accomplishments. He had 3,319 hits which is 9th on the all-time list. Molitor is also 11th on the all-time doubles list and 19th all-time in runs. Even more impressive is that Molitor is one of only four players in MLB history to reach 3,000 hits, 500 SBs, with a batting average above .300. The other three are Ty Cob, Honus Wagner, and Eddie Collins. Molitor is the only player to accomplish that in the last 80+ years. Molitor’s career is impressive enough from his regular season statistics alone. His postseason accolades make him more impressive, yet. In 117 postseason at-bats, Molitor hit .368 with a 1.050 OPS. In 66 World Series at-bats, he hit .418 with a 1.111 OPS. Molitor has the highest batting average in World Series history (min. 60 at-bats) and the highest batting average in playoff history (min. 100 at-bats). Molitor’s postseason success won him the 1993 World Series MVP. >>
If he had played for a team in Los Angeles, Chicago or New York rather than Milwaukee, Toronto and Minnesota, there would be no questioning of his qualifications. That's a shame.
<< <i>"All this discussion/debate is great, but what CU really needs is a place to talk about Sports Cards & Memorabilia. Maybe they should start a forum... "
all thats over there is Pets and Sillies fans contstantly berating each other. >>
You got that right. I'm glad that I'm not a part of those hooligans over there.
"All this discussion/debate is great, but what CU really needs is a place to talk about Sports Cards & Memorabilia. Maybe they should start a forum... "
all thats over there is Pets and Sillies fans contstantly berating each other. >>
You got that right. I'm glad that I'm not a part of those hooligans over there.
Yeah, I second that..second, just like the place those Sill...er Phillies are in as we speak...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Molitor's career started in the 1978 season and ended in the 1998 season. That's twenty-one (21) seasons and a possible 3402 games. Molitor played in 2683 games, e.g., missing 719 games, mostly due to injuries.
Granted, playing every game is unrealistic, but just give him half of those games and his numbers would stratospheric. But even with missing 719 games, Molitor put up some incredible numbers.
Another reason a guy like Marichal did not get many Cy Young votes is during most of his career the voting was done differently. He actually received 1 vote during his entire career!
20 points were the max given, they did not have the voting criteria they use today. Where I think they use a 10. 9, 8 system. In any event much more points are used today.
around 1970-71 it changed to what we use today.
Back in the day, besides awarding only 1 winner the point system was awarded to one or 2 guys.
Comments
Fortunately for Frank Thomas and his fans, 11235813 isn't a HOF voter. Not having Thomas on the list of HOF hitters is a travesty...he was absolutely the best hitter of the '90s and has amazing career numbers for both power and consistency. He's a selfless hitter with an amazing career.
<< <i>Alomar has one of the best baseball minds to ever play the game and his offensive stats are every bit as good as Ryno's. He also made 12 all star games in a row and was the best all around player on two World Series winning teams. He was far from a defensive specialist. I'm not sure how he would not be considered a lock by anyone. >>
If it wasn't for the spitting incident, he would be a first ballot...i say he makes it 2nd time around.
i am overdue for a scan...
<< <i>I don't usually chime in on the Thomas bashing, but I will this time.
Fortunately for Frank Thomas and his fans, 11235813 isn't a HOF voter. Not having Thomas on the list of HOF hitters is a travesty...he was absolutely the best hitter of the '90s and has amazing career numbers for both power and consistency. He's a selfless hitter with an amazing career. >>
+1
<< <i>Plus Thomas did it clean. I think in a few years, more people will be on the Frank Thomas bandwagon kind of the way people have recently gotten back on Griffey's. These are both guys who were long ball threats throughout their whole careers and never had any kind of rumor or speculation of any wrong doing. >>
Very true. I more than conceed that Griffey was the better all around player, without a doubt. But he and Thomas both standout as guys who did it well and guys who did it right.
<< <i>I am about due a dump as well, better post a scan of it.
>>
you doo in every one of your posts...your sig is the most annoying crap on the entire message board
I think i will start putting it in all my messages too...
Here's one for you frankie...
Piazza was so loved in his day, but by the end of his career you rarely could hear a good word about him.
<< <i>All this discussion/debate is great, but what CU really needs is a place to talk about Sports Cards & Memorabilia. Maybe they should start a forum... >>
When was the last time you discussed cards...including this post? I would bet if one would search your last 100 messages, 10 may be about cards.
<< <i>
<< <i>All this discussion/debate is great, but what CU really needs is a place to talk about Sports Cards & Memorabilia. Maybe they should start a forum... >>
When was the last time you discussed cards...including this post? I would bet if one would search your last 100 messages, 10 may be about cards. >>
Why don't you give that a try? You may be surprised.
BTW, Gantner was juicing in 1983. Combined 14 homers in previous 5 seasons then busts out for 11 in one season? Where is Senator Mitchell?
<< <i>Anyone in love with a .274 career hitter already has issues.
BTW, Gantner was juicing in 1983. Combined 14 homers in previous 5 seasons then busts out for 11 in one season? Where is Senator Mitchell? >>
..."in love with" might be a little heavy...but call it whatever you want. There's more to the game than a baseball bat. If you saw the all-star game, I bet the National League would wish they had Gantner at 2nd instead of Uggla.
Sorry to tout another LSU guy, but if Puckett got in just because health cut his career short, then why isn't Albert Belle in the hall? Since they were both playing at the same time, I assure you any pitcher that faced them both would rather have pitched to Pucket than Belle. On a different note, Belle still has a lot of family here and I saw him 4th of July weekend at a fireworks warehouse. I was scared his temper would set the place on fire.
all thats over there is Pets and Sillies fans contstantly berating each other.
<< <i> love the fact that guys like 11254395734853785 will knock a guy like Thomas because he was not a great defender, but don't consider great defense as a determining factor >>
Lee, if you don't like my criteria, then why don't you post your own.
Look, I think the HOF should be for the GREATEST players ever, not just very good ones, and should therefore be much more exculsive than it is. I realize that many people disagree with that stance, which is fine, but then instead of just criticizing my belief that cetain individuals should not be in the HOF, read my arguments carefully and post a counterargument to discuss.
If you read my last long post on this thread, I stated that I don't think one-dimensional players should be in the HOF unless they were heads and shoulders above other players of their generation. That's why a lot of the defensive wizards who were not good on offense don't make my HOF. Frank Thomas is the epitomy of a one-dimensional player. He was indeed one of the dominant hitters in baseball for several years, but the fact that he can't run, throw, or field and spent most of his career as a DH disqualifies him in my book. He was a very good hitter, but he doesn't meet my criteria for being one of the greatest ever.
<< <i>........ I don't think one-dimensional players should be in the HOF unless they were heads and shoulders above other players of their generation. ... He was a very good hitter, but he doesn't meet my criteria for being one of the greatest ever. >>
I would say frank is one of the 20 greatest hitters ever...
Molitor is one of the more underrated players in baseball history. There is a lot to like about his career accomplishments. He had 3,319 hits which is 9th on the all-time list. Molitor is also 11th on the all-time doubles list and 19th all-time in runs. Even more impressive is that Molitor is one of only four players in MLB history to reach 3,000 hits, 500 SBs, with a batting average above .300. The other three are Ty Cob, Honus Wagner, and Eddie Collins. Molitor is the only player to accomplish that in the last 80+ years. Molitor’s career is impressive enough from his regular season statistics alone. His postseason accolades make him more impressive, yet. In 117 postseason at-bats, Molitor hit .368 with a 1.050 OPS. In 66 World Series at-bats, he hit .418 with a 1.111 OPS. Molitor has the highest batting average in World Series history (min. 60 at-bats) and the highest batting average in playoff history (min. 100 at-bats). Molitor’s postseason success won him the 1993 World Series MVP.
lol
Steve
I remember the night he and Yount went 5 for 5 in a WS game.
Steve
<< <i>Here is why someone like Paul Molitor is in the HOF... and why your arguments, criteria et.al are pure bullspit.
Molitor is one of the more underrated players in baseball history. There is a lot to like about his career accomplishments. He had 3,319 hits which is 9th on the all-time list. Molitor is also 11th on the all-time doubles list and 19th all-time in runs. Even more impressive is that Molitor is one of only four players in MLB history to reach 3,000 hits, 500 SBs, with a batting average above .300. The other three are Ty Cob, Honus Wagner, and Eddie Collins. Molitor is the only player to accomplish that in the last 80+ years. Molitor’s career is impressive enough from his regular season statistics alone. His postseason accolades make him more impressive, yet. In 117 postseason at-bats, Molitor hit .368 with a 1.050 OPS. In 66 World Series at-bats, he hit .418 with a 1.111 OPS. Molitor has the highest batting average in World Series history (min. 60 at-bats) and the highest batting average in playoff history (min. 100 at-bats). Molitor’s postseason success won him the 1993 World Series MVP. >>
If he had played for a team in Los Angeles, Chicago or New York rather than Milwaukee, Toronto and Minnesota, there would be no questioning of his qualifications. That's a shame.
<< <i>"All this discussion/debate is great, but what CU really needs is a place to talk about Sports Cards & Memorabilia. Maybe they should start a forum... "
all thats over there is Pets and Sillies fans contstantly berating each other. >>
You got that right. I'm glad that I'm not a part of those hooligans over there.
<< <i>Not true? Isn't that basically what I said? I said he belongs.
Steve >>
The "not true" was in reference to your saying he played "the majority" of his career in the 1 Cy Young era. Which is not true.
Tabe
all thats over there is Pets and Sillies fans contstantly berating each other. >>
You got that right. I'm glad that I'm not a part of those hooligans over there.
Yeah, I second that..second, just like the place those Sill...er Phillies are in as we speak...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The "not true" was in reference to your saying he played "the majority" of his career in the 1 Cy Young era. Which is not true.
I stand corrected, 7 of the 14 years he played only 1 CY Young award winner was chosen.
Of course I am not including the last 2 years where he played very little.
What I should have said, and what i meant was he had the majority of his greatest seasons during the 1 CY Young era.
Steve
Steve
Granted, playing every game is unrealistic, but just give him half of those games and his numbers would stratospheric. But even with missing 719 games, Molitor put up some incredible numbers.
/s/ JackWESQ
collecting 1977 topps baseball in psa 9 and psa 10
of his career the voting was done differently. He actually received 1 vote during his entire career!
20 points were the max given, they did not have the voting criteria they use today.
Where I think they use a 10. 9, 8 system. In any event much more points are used today.
around 1970-71 it changed to what we use today.
Back in the day, besides awarding only 1 winner the point system was awarded to one or 2 guys.
Many were unamanous <sp>
Steve