RYK: I placed no particular emphasis on the order in which I listed my criteria....just put them down as they came to mind.
I do own spectacular coins in NGC holders...in fact, some of my favorites reside there. However, there's no doubt whatsoever that NGC gives out top grades much easier than PCGS. On a coin like this, with significant population under its grade, one must be very careful about spending many multiples of the undergrade price for what might be a half point of quality or less. If one were to be inclined to purchase this coin, it would be very important to get information regarding its relative quality from independent sources ... not those with a financial interest in it who are chatting it up for their own gain.
OK Bruce, I'll bite. As I stated earier, I do not own the coin. I was the underbidder on the set. As to the value, Neither I nor you determine what this coin is worth. The underbidder in an auction does, which or course you know full well. The 13-D I described in my last post was reserved just over $50,000 and ended up selling for $125,000 plus the juice. I assume that CAPE is using that sale in his evaluation of this 17-S. That may be correct or it may not. We will see this summer. As to what you would buy, you have not been a buyer of 20th century coins and likely never will be. These coins are widely collected with many people trying to put finest known sets together. The coins you collect are much rarer but then so are the buyers. Supply and demand, simple economics. There are very few if any 20th century coins that are finest known by multiple points. Another reason it will be highly unlikely you will ever collect them. As to having the coin worth the purchase price if the coin needs to be downgraded, I would love to look through your NGC coins and be able to buy them at the next grade down PCGS money. When can we set up an appointment? (salivating icon) As to the CAC sticker issue, John Albanese does a great job with 18th and 19th century type, dollars, and gold. He is one of the very best graders out there in these issues. His opinion is and should be considered highly for these types of coins. I would pay a premium for coins with his stickers for these types of coins. He is not and never has been an expert on 20th century. I have already seen many coins he has stickered in these areas that are low end coins at best. Red lincolns that are red/brown, full head quarters with marginal heads at best, buffalo nickels with subpar strikes. Then we have the nice coins I have been able to buy in back of bid that he did not sticker, a few which have upgraded at PCGS as well as NGC. Of course, this is just my opinion, for what it is worth.
I don't follow the Buffalo Series but is it accurate to use an NGC MS-68 as a comp for an NGC MS-67. In my mind there is a big psychological difference between a 67 and a 68, in the top pop market. When you have an MS-68 then you are talking about a possible finest known for the series, not just the date.
However, the 17-S is obviously a better date in high grade.
It wouldn't surprise me if it broke 6 figures but then I've always thought these finest known 20th century guys were nuts.
<< <i>With that said, does anyone know if the coin was last purchased raw or was it already graded? And if it was already graded, what and by whom was it graded? >>
But again, I want to know if this is a crack-out or not. >>
All of this PCGS vs NGC crap really gets to me. Every person on these boards KNOWS that both services overgrade and undergrade on occasion. Anyone with any sense buys the coin, not the plastic. I could post pictures of PCGS dogs, and NGC beauties all day long. I could reverse it and do the same! When someone does post a PCGS "dog", everyone says it "turned" in the holder, or some other excuse. Post the same coin in an NGC holder, and everyone says it proves NGC can't grade! Make an innocent remark about PO 1's being "made", and people say, "if your as good a grader as the ones at the TPG's, get a job there, I understand it's 6 figures!"... Same people tell you why a coin IS NOT graded correctly by the TPG's!!!! Why aren't they professional graders??? Seems like a lot of crap to me. If a coin is the nicer of two for the grade, then that's the flavor of plastic I'll go with at the time. And, I have personnally seen (danger, hypocrisy!) NICER coins for the grade, in NGC plastic!!! No, not always, but you would have to be a TOTAL IDIOT not to realize that that a flavor of plastic does not guarentee a nicer coin. As I have said before, take any (random) 5 MS69, or PR69, coins and 5 MS/PR 70 coins (all same date/type), cover the grades, then pick the 5 70's. Sound easy, you'll be wrong every time, and it doesn't matter which sevice your dealing with. I've been a collector for a bit over 30 years, and I've never seen anything as wierd as this "Illogically blind devotion" to a brand of plastic! Look inside guys, there's a coin in there!
>>>griv is the type of person monsterman has made a fortune on.
why yes he is ....as its aparent he does not have a good working knowledge of exactly how the market works
he does not understand that if in 1980 the coin was the best then it still is today
in 1986 it was anointed the best as it was a pcgs 65.....then in time it became a ngc 66.....then in more time...it became a pcgs 66.....now it is a ngc 67............and in time it will be a pcgs 67.......and then in more time ....as ngc 68......then a pcgs 68....and so on
there is no incentive for pcgs or ngc to create 10s of thousands of value for a 100 grading fee.........thus it must be sent in maybe hundreds of times over the years...one day wa la.........obviously if its all there in quality
he really doesnt understand that the 2 tpg actually play off each other......and the fact is ....ngc is actually better at anointing pop 1 coins than pcgs is...actually its their " role " to do so....and the reason is simple..
the tpg are actually giving the market what it wants.....and that is.......... ranking coins.....which the effect of this is gradeflation.......
and this started because of the registry....which created a whole new source of income for the tpg.....and in reality it has brought them 5 times the income they had before it was started
its really cause and effect..........the registry is the cause and gradeflation is the effect
a coin sits in the holder a few years until its underlings get closer in grade.....aka gradeflation...then off to the tpg again for another look see...to prove to the world " it " and the underlings are getting to close............and should be anointed a larger spread ...aka higher grade.....if not there ( pcgs ) then there ( ngc )
its really simple....and its not rocket science ......if it was the best 20 years ago...it still is today......period
the mistake most people make is not understanding the market.....the fact is every pop 1 coin at either tpg was in the other guys holder a few years ago...
and the fact is every 65.9 coin will soon be a 66.........and if not there.....( pcgs ).....then there .....( ngc )
and if ngc 66 now.....soon to pcgs 66
the winner is the guy who
1) knows exactly how the market works 2) has a very good eye 3) knows where a coin ranks in the series to all the others 4) spends time in the market
monsterman
ps dbldie55...since my first 2 books went so well
1) " ms 70 then what?? a 100 point system!! "
2) " buy the coin not the plastic "
im writting a new book titled " how to have a 6 figure colletion for 5 figure money "....i will send you one
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Your analysis has very compelling points... but it takes better than just a very good eye, it is not just about knowing where a coin fits within a series, its about understanding the strike and the overall characteristics of a specific coin and the key... how often the coin surfaces in the most desired state of preservation
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
OK, I fixed the spam. In answer to Shamika this coin was in a set of 68 coins bought by myself and 3 other partners and no it was'nt a crackout. I submitted 13 coins for crossover at NGC and 12 coins crossed over at a higher grade. Now the difference is I know how to grade and I also understand the differences in both grading services on their grading standards! I do beleive in a lot of what Monsterman has to say in the previous thread. Tradedollarnut- beleive me when I tell you these coins are incredible and they certainly do not need any CAC Stickers. Trust me, I buy the coin not the sticker or holder! I am in agreement with MS68 that JA does a great job on CLASSICS but pretty subpar on his nickels that i have personally inspected.
>>>griv is the type of person monsterman has made a fortune on.
why yes he is ....as its aparent he does not have a good working knowledge of exactly how the market works
he does not understand that if in 1980 the coin was the best then it still is today >>
First off, you are wrong about me and you are wrong about the current market. Maybe in the crusty old days of fake grades but today there is too much visibility with pictures and the Internet. I have yet to see a picture of this supposed MS67. I've had my share of luck with upgrading but what you are saying is stupid. Basically, one day it'll be a PCGS MS70. Give me a break. This is a $12K coin at BEST and all the talk about how many books you wrote does not change it. I'd pay more for the Sac on penny planchet than for some pop 23 buffalo nickel. Geez.
Crusty old days of fake grades? ..........??????????
uhhh......that was when the grading was pretty much correct and fairly repeatable (1986-1990). It's today you should be worried about. And once Monsterman gives you some free advice, it's usually best to listen up and see what you overlooked. He came out of retirement just to post on to this thread.
Bruce- You are confusing two separate sets of Buffalos. One was offered at FUN and the other in Baltimore. You best get your facts straight before making comments on things you know nothing about. I forgot, you are a principal of Legend. You guys are famous for making unfounded accusations.
<< <i>Bruce- You are confusing two separate sets of Buffalos. One was offered at FUN and the other in Baltimore. You best get your facts straight before making comments on things you know nothing about. >>
Sorry David - blatant spam threads regarding grade inflation upgrades and big bucks tend to bring out the worst in me!
<< <i>I forgot, you are a principal of Legend. You guys are famous for making unfounded accusations. >>
Yeah - and well founded ones, too. Who was that masked man referenced earlier in this thread who pissed PCGS off by bragging around the bourse floor that they could AT and upgrade any buffalo nickel?
<< <i>Crusty old days of fake grades? ..........??????????
uhhh......that was when the grading was pretty much correct and fairly repeatable (1986-1990). It's today you should be worried about. And once Monsterman gives you some free advice, it's usually best to listen up and see what you overlooked. He came out of retirement just to post on to this thread.
roadrunner >>
Come now, I was buying coins and getting ripped off back in the 60's by BS dealer grades. Hell, look at some of the grading threads on the forum. AU58-MS64 on the last one I checked. 6 points? Be real.
I see a different market today which is why I'm back. Pictures, standards and the Internet have made most of the old farts inconsequential in their BS grade opinions. Prove me wrong. Post some pics of this MS67 that supposed to grade MS68 next go round. In a few more years, grading software will be to the point that these conversations will be mute. And I bet that nickel grades MS66.
Well, if this thread is spam, give me more. These type of threads bring out a lot of good conversation. Much better than, grade this coin, do you think it will sticker? A thread like this brings to the forum a lot of members who would rather not post to the every day dribble most have to offer.
I do want to clarify to Tradedollarnut that I think you are confusing this set of nickels with the set from the 2008 Fun Show. The set that has the 17s is from the Baltimore 2008 show and in the Baltimore set there wasn't a 1926s buff-- this was the only coin missing from this set.
I wasn't getting ripped off in the 60's, but left my losers in the 70's. But after being in the coin market full time for 2 years starting in late 1987, I know that was the best grading period we've had since I've been in the hobby. FACT. As far as what has happened since, I leave that to each of you.
<< <i>Thats funny, I know of only one guy that tones Buffs and have not seen his name mentioned on this thread. Must have missed it. >>
Names? Names never get mentioned around here! Here's the quote: And we all know why they tightened up, an unnamed person ticked them off, now everyone else has to suffer.
Yeah - and well founded ones, too. Who was that masked man referenced earlier in this thread who pissed PCGS off by bragging around the bourse floor that they could AT and upgrade any buffalo nickel?
Unfortunately, I posted earlier. I'd like confirmation, please, that you're not referring to me.
<< <i>I wasn't getting ripped off in the 60's, but left my losers in the 70's. But after being in the coin market full time for 2 years starting in late 1987, I know that was the best grading period we've had since I've been in the hobby. FACT. As far as what has happened since, I leave that to each of you.
roadrunner >>
What it sounds like to me was that this was the best time to play grade games as the TPGs were just getting started and there was a lot of slop in the grade market. Sounds like most industries, and that's my point. Grading is tougher these days because some upstart like me is gonna call BS on your BS so cut the BS. I have access to more info on coins and grading at my fingertips then any 10 top experts have accumilated their entire distinquished careers, so chances are that if the 17S Buff sells for more that $12K then some crusty old fart with more money than brains has elected to throw their money away. It's a free country but don't look on me to bit past $12K.
<< <i>Bruce- You are confusing two separate sets of Buffalos. One was offered at FUN and the other in Baltimore. You best get your facts straight before making comments on things you know nothing about. I forgot, you are a principal of Legend. You guys are famous for making unfounded accusations. >>
<< <i>In answer to Shamika this coin was in a set of 68 coins bought by myself and 3 other partners and no it was'nt a crackout. I submitted 13 coins for crossover at NGC and 12 coins crossed over at a higher grade. >>
A few questions: 1. What was the 17-S graded originally and by whom (PCGS MS66)???
2. If NGC upgraded 12 out of 13 coins submitted for crossover, what does this say about the current state of grading at NGC or the former state of PCGS?
3. If the 17-S is indeed the finest known as many who have viewed it say, why bother trying to upgrade it? The grade on the slab should be irrelevant if it's clearly the finest. Why waste the grading fees?
May I ask what books were written by Monsterman? I dont want to get involved in all this, Im just a book worm and would like to know. This thread has provided some very useful information and I thank the ones that took the time to reply with a serious post.
Looking for Au Classic Commems... Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
copperfan, monsterman has not written any books in print. I think he refers to his thinking on the grading game between PCGS and NGC and how he plays it. He has explained it in detail on these boards many times over, and it makes for very interesting reading. Greg has done very well at it and will I'm sure will continue to do so. He is a very interesting collector to talk to, I have had the pleasure a few times now.
Shamika , Both PCGS AND NGC are extremely tight in their grading standards. What i'm trying to say is LEARN these standards! This 17s is the finest known by either PCGS OR NGC ------ The NGC plastic will not matter as I beleive there to be 3 or 4 collectors fighting over this coin in auction and if I were still a collector I would be right there bidding with them!
Names? Names never get mentioned around here! Here's the quote: And we all know why they tightened up, an unnamed person ticked them off, now everyone else has to suffer.
I wasn't going to mention names but since you bring it up, I was referring to ( Laura) from Legend.
A collector of high grade TONED BUFFALO NICKELS ,working on a PCGS REGISTRY SET.
<< <i>Names? Names never get mentioned around here! Here's the quote: And we all know why they tightened up, an unnamed person ticked them off, now everyone else has to suffer.
I wasn't going to mention names but since you bring it up, I was referring to ( Laura) from Legend. >>
Well, I'd think that the dealer running around bragging how he was getting upgrades on Buffs has a lot more to do with it than little ol' Laura. However, if you want to be mad at Laura for stopping grade inflation, then be my guest.
Both PCGS AND NGC are extremely tight in their grading standards.
I'm as open minded as it comes on NGC [some of my favorite coins are in NGC holders], but this statement is really is over the top. Perhaps it's different in 20th century than classic coins.
I usually super glue these to the pavement during lunch to watch people make a fool of themselves trying to pick them up. Then I recommend a good chiropractor and get a $5 referral fee. Better than selling them on eBay if you ask me.
<< <i>I wasn't getting ripped off in the 60's, but left my losers in the 70's. But after being in the coin market full time for 2 years starting in late 1987, I know that was the best grading period we've had since I've been in the hobby. FACT. As far as what has happened since, I leave that to each of you.
roadrunner >>
What it sounds like to me was that this was the best time to play grade games as the TPGs were just getting started and there was a lot of slop in the grade market. Sounds like most industries, and that's my point. Grading is tougher these days because some upstart like me is gonna call BS on your BS so cut the BS. I have access to more info on coins and grading at my fingertips then any 10 top experts have accumilated their entire distinquished careers, so chances are that if the 17S Buff sells for more that $12K then some crusty old fart with more money than brains has elected to throw their money away. It's a free country but don't look on me to bit past $12K. >>
NO. what he was saying, and many of us can agree with, is that the services were consistantly tight in their inception. The "slop", as you call it, is what has happened since then with gradeflation and the sliding scales that both major services are guilty of. The "grade games" you mentioned have all been in recent years, and continue full steam today.
If you wanted to see strong consistancy and conservative grading, you picked the wrong time to be swimming in the shark infested third-party grading waters.
Furthermore, i'm gonna' call you out on your BS assertion that "I have access to more info on coins and grading at my fingertips then any 10 top experts have accumilated their entire distinquished careers". I'm sure Mark Salzburg, David Hall, and QDB (plus 7 more) would laugh at this assertion, as they should.
i am afraid griv doesnt get my meaning of some of my hyperbole and satire
>>>>Maybe in the crusty old days of fake grades but today there is too much visibility with pictures and the Internet.
im clueless about this........ mmmmmmmm i assume he is talking about before tpg....and yes there were many a " fake grade"..... but today he sounds like he should open an online grading service seeing as how he can grade from a jpeg.................for the life of me i cant
but i have helped many people learn what ...how...and why....and all of them had " stuff " they bought from scans and jpegs and totally regretted it ....and had to dump......so far i have not met anyone with griv`s ability....until now.....good to meet you griv
>>>>>and you are wrong about the current market
no........ im not...in fact im spot on...the tpg are ranking coins....as thats what the market wants....you see collectors dont want you paying ask for a gettysburg in 67 and them paying thrice what you did and having you say see........i have the same as he does......when the fact is the 2 coins arent even remotely close.... so lets say for converstion purposes ...yours is a 67.2 and theirs is a 67.9.......and i can assure you thier coin and your coin will in time be seperated ....aka yours still a 67 and his will be a 68
i would hope you dont think all coins in the same grade are equal do you???............ever hear of the ngc star*...hello
i can only conclude from attending over 30 years of auctions that coins in the same grade often sell for many multiples of sheet while others in the exact same grade go begging ..THUS ALL COINS IN THE SAME GRADE ARE NOT EQUAL ....AND SOMETIMES NOT EVEN CLOSE....if you think about it in theory....take a coin with a pop of 50....i could line them up from 1 to 50 in order of quality....do you really think #50 and the #1 coin are equal??
the fact remains collectors seek pq coins ......and the smart collector wants to buy the best coin in the grade that he can.....and when he out works you....out thinks you.....out manuvers you...out reads you thus does indeed have a better coins than you........he would like the registry to acknowledge the fact that he smoked you a$$.........or at the least .........not have you standing up and "saying look at me mine is the same as his "
when the two arent even close....
you see griv ego is not a bad thing.....its a good thing.....its a motivator ...its keeps one in the hunt...it gets you up in th morning
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Monsterman, I won't argue the finer ponts as you have great wisdom and experience But I will challange your view overall.
I grade over 3,000 coins a month. I think I am solid in the grades I know. I have more PCGS grade 70s than anyone in existance and I made at least 1/3 myself. I respect where you came from but few have had the same exposure I have had so I will reserve the right to call bull crap and maybe you should listen up. IMHO
I do too - as I'm feeding them into the parking meter.
Point being that monsterman's thoughts apply to classic coins. The TPG's don't need to 'rank' moderns... they're all essentially perfect - you gotta micrograde & eye appeal is almost completely uniform.
Comments
I do own spectacular coins in NGC holders...in fact, some of my favorites reside there. However, there's no doubt whatsoever that NGC gives out top grades much easier than PCGS. On a coin like this, with significant population under its grade, one must be very careful about spending many multiples of the undergrade price for what might be a half point of quality or less. If one were to be inclined to purchase this coin, it would be very important to get information regarding its relative quality from independent sources ... not those with a financial interest in it who are chatting it up for their own gain.
As to what you would buy, you have not been a buyer of 20th century coins and likely never will be. These coins are widely collected with many people trying to put finest known sets together. The coins you collect are much rarer but then so are the buyers. Supply and demand, simple economics. There are very few if any 20th century coins that are finest known by multiple points. Another reason it will be highly unlikely you will ever collect them. As to having the coin worth the purchase price if the coin needs to be downgraded, I would love to look through your NGC coins and be able to buy them at the next grade down PCGS money. When can we set up an appointment? (salivating icon)
As to the CAC sticker issue, John Albanese does a great job with 18th and 19th century type, dollars, and gold. He is one of the very best graders out there in these issues. His opinion is and should be considered highly for these types of coins. I would pay a premium for coins with his stickers for these types of coins. He is not and never has been an expert on 20th century. I have already seen many coins he has stickered in these areas that are low end coins at best. Red lincolns that are red/brown, full head quarters with marginal heads at best, buffalo nickels with subpar strikes. Then we have the nice coins I have been able to buy in back of bid that he did not sticker, a few which have upgraded at PCGS as well as NGC. Of course, this is just my opinion, for what it is worth.
I don't follow the Buffalo Series but is it accurate to use an NGC MS-68 as a comp for an NGC MS-67. In my mind there
is a big psychological difference between a 67 and a 68, in the top pop market. When you have an MS-68 then you are talking
about a possible finest known for the series, not just the date.
However, the 17-S is obviously a better date in high grade.
It wouldn't surprise me if it broke 6 figures but then I've always thought these finest known 20th century guys were nuts.
edited to add......
Or the reserve. Or a friendly bidder. Or the potted palm in the back of the room. Which is neither here nor there for the subject at hand...
<< <i>
<< <i>With that said, does anyone know if the coin was last purchased raw or was it already graded? And if it was already graded, what and by whom was it graded? >>
But again, I want to know if this is a crack-out or not. >>
Can someone help me out here???
<< <i>Anyone with any sense buys the coin, not the plastic. >>
Treeman - Your statement is an indisputable fact, but there are an amazing number of "collectors" that have more cents than sense.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not quite sure I understand all the nuances of who owns what, so I'll ask nicely ... is this a SPAM thread?
Let me give it to you straight:
YES >>
Would anyone who has posted praise of this coin in this thread who does NOT own part of the coin in question, please raise your hand?
as soon as it was stated to look at Heritage's site, it became spam.
>>>griv is the type of person monsterman has made a fortune on.
why yes he is ....as its aparent he does not have a good working knowledge of exactly how the market works
he does not understand that if in 1980 the coin was the best then it still is today
in 1986 it was anointed the best as it was a pcgs 65.....then in time it became a ngc 66.....then in more time...it became a pcgs 66.....now it is a ngc 67............and in time it will be a pcgs 67.......and then in more time ....as ngc 68......then a pcgs 68....and so on
there is no incentive for pcgs or ngc to create 10s of thousands of value for a 100 grading fee.........thus it must be sent in maybe hundreds of times over the years...one day wa la.........obviously if its all there in quality
he really doesnt understand that the 2 tpg actually play off each other......and the fact is ....ngc is actually better at anointing pop 1 coins than pcgs is...actually its their " role " to do so....and the reason is simple..
the tpg are actually giving the market what it wants.....and that is.......... ranking coins.....which the effect of this is gradeflation.......
and this started because of the registry....which created a whole new source of income for the tpg.....and in reality it has brought them 5 times the income they had before it was started
its really cause and effect..........the registry is the cause and gradeflation is the effect
a coin sits in the holder a few years until its underlings get closer in grade.....aka gradeflation...then off to the tpg again for another look see...to prove to the world " it " and the underlings are getting to close............and should be anointed a larger spread ...aka higher grade.....if not there ( pcgs ) then there ( ngc )
its really simple....and its not rocket science ......if it was the best 20 years ago...it still is today......period
the mistake most people make is not understanding the market.....the fact is every pop 1 coin at either tpg was in the other guys holder a few years ago...
and the fact is every 65.9 coin will soon be a 66.........and if not there.....( pcgs ).....then there .....( ngc )
and if ngc 66 now.....soon to pcgs 66
the winner is the guy who
1) knows exactly how the market works
2) has a very good eye
3) knows where a coin ranks in the series to all the others
4) spends time in the market
monsterman
ps dbldie55...since my first 2 books went so well
1) " ms 70 then what?? a 100 point system!! "
2) " buy the coin not the plastic "
im writting a new book titled " how to have a 6 figure colletion for 5 figure money "....i will send you one
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Your analysis has very compelling points... but it takes better than just a very good eye, it is not just about knowing where a coin fits within a series, its about understanding the strike and the overall characteristics of a specific coin and the key... how often the coin surfaces in the most desired state of preservation
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>dbldie55
>>>griv is the type of person monsterman has made a fortune on.
why yes he is ....as its aparent he does not have a good working knowledge of exactly how the market works
he does not understand that if in 1980 the coin was the best then it still is today >>
First off, you are wrong about me and you are wrong about the current market. Maybe in the crusty old days of fake grades but today there is too much visibility with pictures and the Internet. I have yet to see a picture of this supposed MS67. I've had my share of luck with upgrading but what you are saying is stupid. Basically, one day it'll be a PCGS MS70. Give me a break. This is a $12K coin at BEST and all the talk about how many books you wrote does not change it. I'd pay more for the Sac on penny planchet than for some pop 23 buffalo nickel. Geez.
uhhh......that was when the grading was pretty much correct and fairly repeatable (1986-1990). It's today you should be worried about. And once Monsterman gives you some free advice, it's usually best to listen up and see what you overlooked. He came out of retirement just to post on to this thread.
roadrunner
<< <i>Bruce- You are confusing two separate sets of Buffalos. One was offered at FUN and the other in Baltimore. You best get your facts straight before making comments on things you know nothing about. >>
Sorry David - blatant spam threads regarding grade inflation upgrades and big bucks tend to bring out the worst in me!
<< <i>I forgot, you are a principal of Legend. You guys are famous for making unfounded accusations. >>
Yeah - and well founded ones, too. Who was that masked man referenced earlier in this thread who pissed PCGS off by bragging around the bourse floor that they could AT and upgrade any buffalo nickel?
<< <i>Crusty old days of fake grades? ..........??????????
uhhh......that was when the grading was pretty much correct and fairly repeatable (1986-1990). It's today you should be worried about. And once Monsterman gives you some free advice, it's usually best to listen up and see what you overlooked. He came out of retirement just to post on to this thread.
roadrunner >>
Come now, I was buying coins and getting ripped off back in the 60's by BS dealer grades. Hell, look at some of the grading threads on the forum. AU58-MS64 on the last one I checked. 6 points? Be real.
I see a different market today which is why I'm back. Pictures, standards and the Internet have made most of the old farts inconsequential in their BS grade opinions. Prove me wrong. Post some pics of this MS67 that supposed to grade MS68 next go round. In a few more years, grading software will be to the point that these conversations will be mute. And I bet that nickel grades MS66.
Much better than, grade this coin, do you think it will sticker? A thread like this brings to the forum a lot of members who would rather not post to the every day dribble most have to offer.
Rainbow Stars
But after being in the coin market full time for 2 years starting in late 1987, I know that was the best grading period we've had since I've been in the hobby. FACT. As far as what has happened since, I leave that to each of you.
roadrunner
<< <i>Thats funny, I know of only one guy that tones Buffs and have not seen his name mentioned on this thread. Must have missed it. >>
Names? Names never get mentioned around here!
Unfortunately, I posted earlier. I'd like confirmation, please, that you're not referring to me.
<< <i>I wasn't getting ripped off in the 60's, but left my losers in the 70's.
But after being in the coin market full time for 2 years starting in late 1987, I know that was the best grading period we've had since I've been in the hobby. FACT. As far as what has happened since, I leave that to each of you.
roadrunner >>
What it sounds like to me was that this was the best time to play grade games as the TPGs were just getting started and there was a lot of slop in the grade market. Sounds like most industries, and that's my point. Grading is tougher these days because some upstart like me is gonna call BS on your BS so cut the BS. I have access to more info on coins and grading at my fingertips then any 10 top experts have accumilated their entire distinquished careers, so chances are that if the 17S Buff sells for more that $12K then some crusty old fart with more money than brains has elected to throw their money away. It's a free country but don't look on me to bit past $12K.
<< <i>
Looks like a NGC MS-68 to me.
<< <i>Bruce- You are confusing two separate sets of Buffalos. One was offered at FUN and the other in Baltimore. You best get your facts straight before making comments on things you know nothing about. I forgot, you are a principal of Legend. You guys are famous for making unfounded accusations. >>
Ah, another forum member who is envious of TDN.
<< <i>In answer to Shamika this coin was in a set of 68 coins bought by myself and 3 other partners and no it was'nt a crackout. I submitted 13 coins for crossover at NGC and 12 coins crossed over at a higher grade. >>
A few questions:
1. What was the 17-S graded originally and by whom (PCGS MS66)???
2. If NGC upgraded 12 out of 13 coins submitted for crossover, what does this say about the current state of grading at NGC or the former state of PCGS?
3. If the 17-S is indeed the finest known as many who have viewed it say, why bother trying to upgrade it? The grade on the slab should be irrelevant if it's clearly the finest. Why waste the grading fees?
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
Rainbow Stars
I wasn't going to mention names but since you bring it up, I was referring to ( Laura) from Legend.
<< <i>Looks like a NGC MS-68 to me. >>
slowly, step away from the Mercs.
<< <i>Names? Names never get mentioned around here! Here's the quote: And we all know why they tightened up, an unnamed person ticked them off, now everyone else has to suffer.
I wasn't going to mention names but since you bring it up, I was referring to ( Laura) from Legend. >>
Well, I'd think that the dealer running around bragging how he was getting upgrades on Buffs has a lot more to do with it than little ol' Laura. However, if you want to be mad at Laura for stopping grade inflation, then be my guest.
I'm as open minded as it comes on NGC [some of my favorite coins are in NGC holders], but this statement is really is over the top. Perhaps it's different in 20th century than classic coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks like a NGC MS-68 to me. >>
slowly, step away from the Mercs.
I usually super glue these to the pavement during lunch to watch people make a fool of themselves trying to pick them up. Then I recommend a good chiropractor and get a $5 referral fee. Better than selling them on eBay if you ask me.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wasn't getting ripped off in the 60's, but left my losers in the 70's.
But after being in the coin market full time for 2 years starting in late 1987, I know that was the best grading period we've had since I've been in the hobby. FACT. As far as what has happened since, I leave that to each of you.
roadrunner >>
What it sounds like to me was that this was the best time to play grade games as the TPGs were just getting started and there was a lot of slop in the grade market. Sounds like most industries, and that's my point. Grading is tougher these days because some upstart like me is gonna call BS on your BS so cut the BS. I have access to more info on coins and grading at my fingertips then any 10 top experts have accumilated their entire distinquished careers, so chances are that if the 17S Buff sells for more that $12K then some crusty old fart with more money than brains has elected to throw their money away. It's a free country but don't look on me to bit past $12K.
NO. what he was saying, and many of us can agree with, is that the services were consistantly tight in their inception. The "slop", as you call it, is what has happened since then with gradeflation and the sliding scales that both major services are guilty of. The "grade games" you mentioned have all been in recent years, and continue full steam today.
If you wanted to see strong consistancy and conservative grading, you picked the wrong time to be swimming in the shark infested third-party grading waters.
Furthermore, i'm gonna' call you out on your BS assertion that "I have access to more info on coins and grading at my fingertips then any 10 top experts have accumilated their entire distinquished careers". I'm sure Mark Salzburg, David Hall, and QDB (plus 7 more) would laugh at this assertion, as they should.
So is picking up free discarded money only something a fool would do now?
Gradeflation, sort of like the 1804 $1's?
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
i am afraid griv doesnt get my meaning of some of my hyperbole and satire
>>>>Maybe in the crusty old days of fake grades but today there is too much visibility with pictures and the Internet.
im clueless about this........ mmmmmmmm i assume he is talking about before tpg....and yes there were many a " fake grade"..... but today he sounds like he should open an online grading service seeing as how he can grade from a jpeg.................for the life of me i cant
but i have helped many people learn what ...how...and why....and all of them had " stuff " they bought from scans and jpegs and totally regretted it ....and had to dump......so far i have not met anyone with griv`s ability....until now.....good to meet you griv
>>>>>and you are wrong about the current market
no........ im not...in fact im spot on...the tpg are ranking coins....as thats what the market wants....you see collectors dont want you paying ask for a gettysburg in 67 and them paying thrice what you did and having you say see........i have the same as he does......when the fact is the 2 coins arent even remotely close.... so lets say for converstion purposes ...yours is a 67.2 and theirs is a 67.9.......and i can assure you thier coin and your coin will in time be seperated ....aka yours still a 67 and his will be a 68
i would hope you dont think all coins in the same grade are equal do you???............ever hear of the ngc star*...hello
i can only conclude from attending over 30 years of auctions that coins in the same grade often sell for many multiples of sheet while others in the exact same grade go begging ..THUS ALL COINS IN THE SAME GRADE ARE NOT EQUAL ....AND SOMETIMES NOT EVEN CLOSE....if you think about it in theory....take a coin with a pop of 50....i could line them up from 1 to 50 in order of quality....do you really think #50 and the #1 coin are equal??
the fact remains collectors seek pq coins ......and the smart collector wants to buy the best coin in the grade that he can.....and when he out works you....out thinks you.....out manuvers you...out reads you thus does indeed have a better coins than you........he would like the registry to acknowledge the fact that he smoked you a$$.........or at the least .........not have you standing up and "saying look at me mine is the same as his "
when the two arent even close....
you see griv ego is not a bad thing.....its a good thing.....its a motivator ...its keeps one in the hunt...it gets you up in th morning
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
Griv, Griv, Griv (shaking head icon)
You can have all the coin info you want at your fingertips via the internet.
BUT>>>
That's nothing compared to spending 20-30 years on the bourse.
I grade over 3,000 coins a month. I think I am solid in the grades I know. I have more PCGS grade 70s than anyone in existance and I made at least 1/3 myself. I respect where you came from but few have had the same exposure I have had so I will reserve the right to call bull crap and maybe you should listen up. IMHO
<< <i>This conversation ain't about moderns.
Grades a grade.
I look at 30-40 thousand coins a year. How many dealers can say that and I'm not a dealer?
<< <i>
<< <i>This conversation ain't about moderns.
Grades a grade.
I look at 30-40 thousand coins a year. >>
I do too - as I'm feeding them into the parking meter.
Point being that monsterman's thoughts apply to classic coins. The TPG's don't need to 'rank' moderns... they're all essentially perfect - you gotta micrograde & eye appeal is almost completely uniform.