Should this trade dollar go back to PCGS
stev32k
Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭
I bought this TD a few weeks ago and just now had the chance to look at it. It looks to me like it's been harshly cleaned and scrubbed. Should it go back to PCGS for a grade guarantee review?
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Comments
JJ
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<< <i>I'm guessing die pollish lines. It doesn't appear like the lines continue on to the devices.
JJ >>
I agree.
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On a side note, does anyone have a link to where i can read more on die polish lines? This has to be one of the areas i know the least on.
Mark
<< <i> Wiped and rubbed for sure, though. I think this coin may have been quietly "net graded" down for this, since it looks to have 55-58 detail to me. >>
Exactly what I was thinking when I looked at the coin.
<< <i>I'm guessing die pollish lines. It doesn't appear like the lines continue on to the devices.
JJ >> >>
<< <i>I agree. >>
I think you're both a bit confused. Cleaning typically DOESN'T continue into the edges of the devices, while true die polishing almost always continues into the devices.
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JJ
<< <i>
<< <i> Wiped and rubbed for sure, though. I think this coin may have been quietly "net graded" down for this, since it looks to have 55-58 detail to me. >>
Exactly what I was thinking when I looked at the coin.
<< <i>I'm guessing die pollish lines. It doesn't appear like the lines continue on to the devices.
JJ >> >>
<< <i>I agree. >>
I think you're both a bit confused. Cleaning typically DOESN'T continue into the edges of the devices, while true die polishing almost always continues into the devices. >>
I guess that was a little confusing. Cleaning hairlines, yes, do not typically go right up to the edge of the device, but they certainly will show on the high points of the device.
JJ
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I would not expect PCGS to consider this coin to be a mistake, and would not bother sending it to them. Better just to sell it if you don't like it. It's perfectly salable.
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This is done quite a bit the rarer coins lile this. I have an OGH gold coin that has a similar amount of cleaning.
<< <i>I am with the cleaned net graded camp.
This is done quite a bit the rarer coins lile this. I have an OGH gold coin that has a similar amount of cleaning. >>
I can understand this net grading on rare coins..........but come on, an 1878S TD in AU isn't exactly rare.
<< <i>Back in the OGH days this would have BB'd! >>
It would BB right now if you sent it in raw, 99 out of 100 times. This had to be an inadvertent error. I bet PCGS would want to get that coin off the market, so send it back under grade guarantee.
There are just as many coins in OGH that look like they should have BB'd. If I asked you to grade several million coins, you'd make a few mistakes too!
While I would agree that this coin would sometimes BB, there is no way that this is "an inadvertent error". Hairlines like these are too obvious to miss. Therefore, it's obvious that the graders decided to net grade the coin. I don't have a problem with the decision, although this coin is not one that I would choose to put in my own collection.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
me more than the lines.
Jerry
JJ
Based on the pattern of lines, the pattern of luster impairment and the partially removed spot, it's obvious that the coin has been cleaned and that the lines MUST BE hairline scratches. So whatever optical effects you're seeing, most or (more likely) all of the lines are not raised. Unfortunately, I don't know how to argue that irrefutably. All I can say is that once you've seen enough cleaned coins, it's obvious.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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As an aside, I have seen very few trade dollars with die polish lines.
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<< <i>Those be hairlines.
As an aside, I have seen very few trade dollars with die polish lines. >>
HA! like you'd know!? pffft
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<< <i> Based on the way the lines are casting a shadow, they look raised to me.
Based on the pattern of lines, the pattern of luster impairment and the partially removed spot, it's obvious that the coin has been cleaned and that the lines MUST BE hairline scratches. So whatever optical effects you're seeing, most or (more likely) all of the lines are not raised. Unfortunately, I don't know how to argue that irrefutably. All I can say is that once you've seen enough cleaned coins, it's obvious. >>
How could a finalizer let that thru? Then again I have seen 45's in PCGS plastic that were just like that.
<< <i>
<< <i> Based on the way the lines are casting a shadow, they look raised to me.
Based on the pattern of lines, the pattern of luster impairment and the partially removed spot, it's obvious that the coin has been cleaned and that the lines MUST BE hairline scratches. So whatever optical effects you're seeing, most or (more likely) all of the lines are not raised. Unfortunately, I don't know how to argue that irrefutably. All I can say is that once you've seen enough cleaned coins, it's obvious. >>
How could a finalizer let that thru? Then again I have seen 45's in PCGS plastic that were just like that. >>
they "needed" it in their population reports, thus the 'net grade'. these kind of coins are what I think of when people get all worked up and say that PCGS should slab problem coins; they do it already, might as well have full disclosure on the slab. Some say that having problem coins slab and noted "cheapens the brand", but IMHO it is these kind of things that do that by not disclosing problems and silently 'net grading'.
What are the rules that the finalizer is supposed to follow? And if you think you know, how do you know?
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<< <i>How could a finalizer let that thru?
What are the rules that the finalizer is supposed to follow? And if you think you know, how do you know? >>
That obviously harshly cleaned coins should be in a bodybag rather than in a PCGS slab?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How could a finalizer let that thru?
What are the rules that the finalizer is supposed to follow? And if you think you know, how do you know? >>
He is supposed to agree with the grade assigned or catch mistakes is he not? I'd guess in this case he probly didn't have a problem with the grade. Then again how do so many other supposedly overgraded coins make it through 2 or more sets of eyes.
<< <i>Do die polish lines all go in the same direction? The whole slab pic shows a bunch of lines going down to the right while the close up shows a bunch of lines going down to the left???
On a side note, does anyone have a link to where i can read more on die polish lines? This has to be one of the areas i know the least on.
Mark >>
Mark- Your question reminded me of an interesting article I read in Numismatic News, so I went back and found it online. Of course, it's the one article that DOESN'T have a link to it (I had to log in to my account and search through past issues to find it). But, if you have access to the magazine or a library, perhaps you can find it. It's from the Oct 16 2007 issue and is found on page 40. It's slightly different than your question...it's all about spotting counterfeits by analyzing metal flow lines, but it's still an interesting read and partly relates.
If you can't find it, PM me...I took a screenshot of it but its' too large to post here.
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<< <i>
<< <i>How could a finalizer let that thru?
What are the rules that the finalizer is supposed to follow? And if you think you know, how do you know? >>
He is supposed to agree with the grade assigned or catch mistakes is he not? I'd guess in this case he probly didn't have a problem with the grade. Then again how do so many other supposedly overgraded coins make it through 2 or more sets of eyes. >>
Ahhh, somebody finally speaks up and acknowledges the elephant standing in the living room.
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