That's cool^. I think of the several mediocre years he had for Houston, then a sudden upswing in stats, and the fact that he lasted for 27 years MAY indicate that factors other than good nutrition contributed to his longevity and upswing as he got older. Does that make good sense?
"I think of the several mediocre years he had for Houston, then a sudden upswing in stats, and the fact that he lasted for 27 years MAY indicate that factors other than good nutrition contributed to his longevity and upswing as he got older. Does that make good sense? "
////////////////////////////////
That is merely a restatement of your suspicions.
I am not opposed to circumstantial evidence or hearsay. Citing the "circumstances" that give rise to your suspicion is nothing more than a flawed if/then statement.
There are MANY explanations for NR's performance/longevity. There is ONLY one explanation for Bond's performance/change.
Give us some "Bonds like" evidence.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Call me Mr. Double-Standard, but if Nolan Ryan did roids, more power to him. He was never an arrogant SOB and he played the game tough, and I enjoyed watching him.
I think we should go back and look at every player in the Hall of Fame and check and see if they ever used steroids, amphetamines (speed), pain killers, cocaine, alcohol, caffeine, ginseng, opiates, tobacco, spit balls, corked bats , sandpaper, to much pine tar, or cheated on their wife and take them out of the Hall of Fame and ban them for life from MLB. at least that way you could tour the Hall of Fame in about 1 to 4 minutes. I like the idea steroids let's forget it and move on, otherwise close down the HOF. Also apply this rule to the basketball, hockey and football hall of fames JMO
<< <i>I think of the several mediocre years he had for Houston, >>
Well, you think wrong.
Averaged a 3.00 ERA, consistantly 200+ Ks, eating up innings with around 200 and then some, and more than a handfull of 1-hitters with a no-no.
That's mediocre? Sounds pretty solid to me.
Unless you gauge a pitcher only on wins and losses. However, you're not the only one because that's the ONLY reason he didn't win the CYA in '87.
Finally, when you make an opinion that you are absolutely convinced of being the truth without showing any work, makes you look a tad hard headed.
But that's my opinion based upon what I've read in this thread.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
In this age of guilty until proven innocent, you would think that more people would refrain from comments like this unless they have some first hand information. Even then, there's a right and wrong way to do anything.
<< <i>Some years out, Canseco is likely to be remembered as the guy who showed the most "character" when he admitted he cheated and said he was sorry. >>
Canseco never said he was sorry. He seems to think that steroids are the greatest thing.
Pff. Now the whole deal with his asking Magglio Ordonez to "invest" in his movie project in exchange for being kept clean in the new Canseco book?
The only "character" that Canseco is showing is one out of a sleazy crime novel.
One thing to ponder... If Nolan can experience a sudden late career upswing w/o the juice, why can't other guys? If a 40 year old k's 300 batters in one season during and before the 80s, everyone's saying "Wow, what a Hall of Famer!" If a 40 year old k's 300 batters now, a lot of folks will be saying "Wow, this guy must be on steroids!"
Sadly, it's a product of the times we're in. Due to a minority of cheaters, what was once looked at with awe and amazement is now looked at with a sobering dose of suspicion.
Canseco has REPEATEDLY said that he regrets having disappointed his fans and being seen as a cheater.
He HAS said that he sees NOTHING wrong with using steroids and that they should be "allowed," because efforts to ban them CANNOT work in a uniform way. He sees his peers as "cheaters;" in his first book he said that "everybody" was doing them and he could not compete if he did not get the same "edge."
Canseco will be seen as hero, as time passes. Now, many folks are just pist at him because he was a "rat."
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Efforts to further discredit him are now underway, bigtime.
Lots of people are worried.
//////////////////////////////////////////
On Thursday, Canseco's lawyer, Rob Saunooke, asserted that the impact of the new book's revelations would match those in Juiced, Canseco's original bestseller, which sold 300,000-plus copies, instigated a Congressional hearing that embarrassed Canseco's former Bash Brother Mark McGwire, eventually helped lead to much stricter penalties for steroid use in major league baseball and appears now to have batted close to 1.000 in accuracy.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
You've got an inside scoop as to what's cooking in Canseco's brain? Do tell.
So far, the original publisher for this book said that Canseco's "dirt" on A-Rod was bogus and backed out of the project, leaving Canseco to shop his book around a little more before finding a new publisher.
No need for any inside info from Canseco's brain. The FULL story has been out for three-weeks. The NYT did the first hit piece. (The NYT has been in a notorious stae of denial on the whole issue for years. Bad for biz in NYC to tell the truth.)
New publisher secured within 48-hours of submission. S&S imprint. It will be a HUGE story by March 31.
Original writer from SI backed out because he felt the material was thin; just a bunch of new names; hard to get up to 250 pages. That is why the first publisher bailed.
The alleged "extortion victim" said he was "not sure" he understood the situation and did not wish to take the matter further. Why would he lie when the story was already out there? No one thinks the guy is/was even going to be in the book.
Publishing insiders have been pressured to steer clear. S&S is so big that they could not be scared off.
Canseco's people have NEVER said Arod was going to be in the book. Unnamed sources told somebody at SI that it "was likely." That's how that story started; not through Canseco.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I had the pleasure of watching Nolan many, many times at Anaheim Stadium in the 70's. Designated hitter rule ring any bells? Nolan beat Sandy's 'K' record even after being saddled with the DH. Back then (yeah, the good 'ol days) pitchers didn't whine about innings pitched OR pitch counts. They had a job and they damn well did it. His days at Houston were no different comparatively speaking than with the Angels, 'K's' aside. His later years saw a somewhat re-birth of his previous years due to a diluted league, players rushed to the bigs, and an emphasis put on protecting your starting 5 by the evolution of the closers (as we have them today). Intimidation was a factor too. Do you think you could play a half-court game with Michael or Larry? No. You'd crap your pants, which is what a lot of players did facing Ryan. I would fathom that you're in your teens judging by your lack of substance in your accusations. You remind me of the kid who would ring someone's doorbell late at night then run and hide to watch their reaction. Grow up a bit before you start slinging mud. (and be able to back it up) You've touched a nerve with many folks.
Gonzer pitchers don't whine about pitch counts and ip's general managers have millions invested in those arms and they are the ones (along with the manager) that set how many a guy will throw.
<< <i>Canseco's people have NEVER said Arod was going to be in the book. Unnamed sources told somebody at SI that it "was likely." That's how that story started; not through Canseco. >>
Were are you getting your info?
Pulled right off of the ESPN website: "Jose has information about A-Rod and the Yankees that will be in the book. But, I am not sure if Jose is willing to disclose it at this point," Canseco's lawyer, Robert O. Saunooke, told The New York Times.
"Canseco's people have NEVER said Arod was going to be in the book. Unnamed sources told somebody at SI that it "was likely." That's how that story started; not through Canseco."
MY point was that Canseco has "NEVER said Arod's involvement with steroids" would be alleged in the book.
HE STILL has never said that.
The ESPN story of July 2007 is misleading. There was NEVER any allegation that Arod used steroids made by Canseco or his agents/lawyers.
In February 2007, SI said an "unnamed source" - that source was likely the author of Juiced I - claimed that tales of Arod would be in Juiced II. NOBODY, other than the media has made the steroid assumption. EVEN the writer - the one that has now been replaced and still works for SI - has NOT said there were steroid-allegations against Arod.
It is totally possible that Canseco's tales about Arod will not have anything to do with steroids. It is also possible that Arod may NOT be featured in the newly formatted book. If he is, the chances that steroids will be tied to Arod are slim. S&S will NOT take a chance on those allegations, without absolute proof.
spelling edit
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>It is totally possible that Canseco's tales about Arod will not have anything to do with steroids. >>
Totally possible.
After Canseco hinted that he had dirt of A-Rod for his next book, he was asked directly if A-Rod used steroids. Canseco's responce was "Wait and see."
In responce to A-Rod not being on the Mitchell Report, he said "All I can say is the Mitchell report is incomplete. I could not believe that his name was not in the report."
Has he flat out revealed any names that will be in his new book yet? It'd be dumb for him to do so, as 80% of the people who will buy the book are doing so to see who Canseco is outting.
Besides, A-Rod's already gotten the headlines with his little jaunt with his stripper friend.
Again an easy explaination for his "rise" in stats is that he switched from the NL to the AL. He was now facing many players he had never faced before and his stats were not that great. You have to remember throughout his career as a starter he went out and got CGs even when other pitchers were whining about pitching too many innings. He was one of the last of the era where pitchers did not go out pitch 6 innings then take a seat. They actually pitched complete games no matter what.
As far as his health issues go when a person maintains a certain level of activity and then stops their health usually starts to deteriorate quickly. I have seen many times people work until they are 65 and 70 with near perfect health and be dead after 2 years or retirement. Yes steroids can enhance this downturn, but it happens anyway its just how our bodies work. Just like you take a man who has never excercised a day in his life and start making him jog you will probaly kill him.
"please buy my book before i go into federal witness protection program"
//////////////////////////////////////////////
I am about 90% certain that is sort of where he will end up.
It is about a sure thing that EVERY law-enforcement agency with a serious interest in the subject has invited him in for a brain dump. Right now, he is serving those guys' interests by roamimg around. Soon, his only value may be as a singer in a series of Federal courtrooms.
There are real questions about how culpable the OWNERS are in the steroid scandal. Did the owners know what was going on? Is Canseco the guy who can prove they did? Is MLB about to be cast as a giant RICO enterprise?
IF the owners turn out to be the real targets of the Feds, Canseco may have to be disappeared AFTER he does the fat lady song.
All of this is the primary reason that I have absolute confidence that Canseco will always tell the truth. The kind of deal I think he has made would be down the tubes if he were to be caught lying.
We will get more clues next month, when Congress revisits the issue; televised hearings likely, in mid-Feb.
NOTE: So far, I have lost several thousand dollars as a result of my bb-cards turning to carp when players have been tied to steroids. I hope the damage is close to over; I fear it is not.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
If you are not willing to take that large of a bet, then tell me how much you would be willing to take
It wouldn't suprise me to learn about drug use from any professional athlete, but to go around guessing at which athletes are or are not drug users is always stupid
Comments
Steve
////////////////////////////////
That is merely a restatement of your suspicions.
I am not opposed to circumstantial evidence or
hearsay. Citing the "circumstances" that give rise
to your suspicion is nothing more than a flawed
if/then statement.
There are MANY explanations for NR's performance/longevity.
There is ONLY one explanation for Bond's performance/change.
Give us some "Bonds like" evidence.
Who else could possibly crap out those delicious cadbury eggs?
If you only have opinion and no concrete evidence how then do you expect to win this bet?
Or even make one?
Steve
Steve
<< <i>I think of the several mediocre years he had for Houston, >>
Well, you think wrong.
Averaged a 3.00 ERA, consistantly 200+ Ks, eating up innings with around 200 and then some, and more than a handfull of 1-hitters with a no-no.
That's mediocre? Sounds pretty solid to me.
Unless you gauge a pitcher only on wins and losses. However, you're not the only one because that's the ONLY reason he didn't win the CYA in '87.
Finally, when you make an opinion that you are absolutely convinced of being the truth without showing any work, makes you look a tad hard headed.
But that's my opinion based upon what I've read in this thread.
<< <i>when you make an opinion that you are absolutely convinced of being the truth without showing any work, makes you look a tad hard headed. >>
I'm not 100% convinced, but over 75% sure that he did some type of performance enhancers, in other words, pretty darn sure.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
Your name fits.
Steve
<< <i>Some years out, Canseco is likely to be remembered as the guy who showed the most "character" when he admitted he cheated and said he was sorry. >>
Canseco never said he was sorry. He seems to think that steroids are the greatest thing.
Pff. Now the whole deal with his asking Magglio Ordonez to "invest" in his movie project in exchange for being kept clean in the new Canseco book?
The only "character" that Canseco is showing is one out of a sleazy crime novel.
One thing to ponder... If Nolan can experience a sudden late career upswing w/o the juice, why can't other guys? If a 40 year old k's 300 batters in one season during and before the 80s, everyone's saying "Wow, what a Hall of Famer!" If a 40 year old k's 300 batters now, a lot of folks will be saying "Wow, this guy must be on steroids!"
Sadly, it's a product of the times we're in. Due to a minority of cheaters, what was once looked at with awe and amazement is now looked at with a sobering dose of suspicion.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>I bet there are a ton of players that took p.e.d.'s that no one would suspect. >>
So, what's your point?
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
I thought so, thanks for clarifying that Dgicat.
Steve
Steve
having disappointed his fans and being seen as
a cheater.
He HAS said that he sees NOTHING wrong with
using steroids and that they should be "allowed,"
because efforts to ban them CANNOT work in a
uniform way. He sees his peers as "cheaters;"
in his first book he said that "everybody" was doing
them and he could not compete if he did not get
the same "edge."
Canseco will be seen as hero, as time passes. Now,
many folks are just pist at him because he was a "rat."
Canseco's new book hits the shelves by 3-31-08.
Efforts to further discredit him are now underway, bigtime.
Lots of people are worried.
//////////////////////////////////////////
On Thursday, Canseco's lawyer, Rob Saunooke, asserted that the impact of the new book's revelations would match those in Juiced, Canseco's original bestseller, which sold 300,000-plus copies, instigated a Congressional hearing that embarrassed Canseco's former Bash Brother Mark McGwire, eventually helped lead to much stricter penalties for steroid use in major league baseball and appears now to have batted close to 1.000 in accuracy.
<< <i>Canseco will be seen as hero, as time passes. >>
Hero Jose's trying to collect some protection money.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Hero Jose's trying to collect some protection money.
////////////////////////////////////////////
Like I said, the campaign to further discredit him is going full bore.
ALOT of people are very nervous.
There is no "investigation" into the bogus "extortion allegation."
Common sense tells us that the offer was never made.
The subject of the original allegation is widely believed NOT to
even be mentioned in the new book.
Canseco and his agents/shysters DENY making the alleged contact.
So far, Canseco has NOT been shown to be a "liar" in ANY element
of the steroid controversy.
So far, the original publisher for this book said that Canseco's "dirt" on A-Rod was bogus and backed out of the project, leaving Canseco to shop his book around a little more before finding a new publisher.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
The FULL story has been out for three-weeks. The
NYT did the first hit piece. (The NYT has been in a
notorious stae of denial on the whole issue for
years. Bad for biz in NYC to tell the truth.)
New publisher secured within 48-hours of submission.
S&S imprint. It will be a HUGE story by March 31.
Original writer from SI backed out because he felt the
material was thin; just a bunch of new names; hard to
get up to 250 pages. That is why the first publisher
bailed.
The alleged "extortion victim" said he was "not sure"
he understood the situation and did not wish to take
the matter further. Why would he lie when the story
was already out there? No one thinks the guy is/was
even going to be in the book.
Publishing insiders have been pressured to steer clear.
S&S is so big that they could not be scared off.
Canseco's people have NEVER said Arod was going to
be in the book. Unnamed sources told somebody at
SI that it "was likely." That's how that story started;
not through Canseco.
Yes Nollie was a bear.
Steve
<< <i>Canseco's people have NEVER said Arod was going to be in the book. Unnamed sources told somebody at SI that it "was likely." That's how that story started; not through Canseco. >>
Were are you getting your info?
Pulled right off of the ESPN website: "Jose has information about A-Rod and the Yankees that will be in the book. But, I am not sure if Jose is willing to disclose it at this point," Canseco's lawyer, Robert O. Saunooke, told The New York Times.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
"Canseco's people have NEVER said Arod was going to
be in the book. Unnamed sources told somebody at
SI that it "was likely." That's how that story started;
not through Canseco."
MY point was that Canseco has "NEVER said Arod's
involvement with steroids" would be alleged in the
book.
HE STILL has never said that.
The ESPN story of July 2007 is misleading.
There was NEVER any allegation that Arod used steroids
made by Canseco or his agents/lawyers.
In February 2007, SI said an "unnamed source" -
that source was likely the author of Juiced I - claimed that tales
of Arod would be in Juiced II. NOBODY, other than
the media has made the steroid assumption. EVEN
the writer - the one that has now been replaced and
still works for SI - has NOT said there were steroid-allegations against Arod.
It is totally possible that Canseco's tales about
Arod will not have anything to do with steroids.
It is also possible that Arod may NOT be featured
in the newly formatted book. If he is, the chances
that steroids will be tied to Arod are slim. S&S will NOT
take a chance on those allegations, without absolute
proof.
spelling edit
<< <i>It is totally possible that Canseco's tales about Arod will not have anything to do with steroids. >>
Totally possible.
After Canseco hinted that he had dirt of A-Rod for his next book, he was asked directly if A-Rod used steroids. Canseco's responce was "Wait and see."
In responce to A-Rod not being on the Mitchell Report, he said "All I can say is the Mitchell report is incomplete. I could not believe that his name was not in the report."
Has he flat out revealed any names that will be in his new book yet? It'd be dumb for him to do so, as 80% of the people who will buy the book are doing so to see who Canseco is outting.
Besides, A-Rod's already gotten the headlines with his little jaunt with his stripper friend.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
As far as his health issues go when a person maintains a certain level of activity and then stops their health usually starts to deteriorate quickly. I have seen many times people work until they are 65 and 70 with near perfect health and be dead after 2 years or retirement. Yes steroids can enhance this downturn, but it happens anyway its just how our bodies work. Just like you take a man who has never excercised a day in his life and start making him jog you will probaly kill him.
interpreted as above like leias too as- "please buy my book before i go into federal witness protection program"
//////////////////////////////////////////////
I am about 90% certain that is sort of where he will end up.
It is about a sure thing that EVERY law-enforcement agency
with a serious interest in the subject has invited him in for a
brain dump. Right now, he is serving those guys' interests by
roamimg around. Soon, his only value may be as a singer in a
series of Federal courtrooms.
There are real questions about how culpable the OWNERS
are in the steroid scandal. Did the owners know what was
going on? Is Canseco the guy who can prove they did? Is
MLB about to be cast as a giant RICO enterprise?
IF the owners turn out to be the real targets of the Feds,
Canseco may have to be disappeared AFTER he does the
fat lady song.
All of this is the primary reason that I have absolute confidence
that Canseco will always tell the truth. The kind of deal I think
he has made would be down the tubes if he were to be caught
lying.
We will get more clues next month, when Congress revisits
the issue; televised hearings likely, in mid-Feb.
NOTE: So far, I have lost several thousand dollars as a result
of my bb-cards turning to carp when players have been tied to
steroids. I hope the damage is close to over; I fear it is not.
If you are not willing to take that large of a bet, then tell me how much you would be willing to take
It wouldn't suprise me to learn about drug use from any professional athlete, but to go around guessing at which athletes are or are not drug users is always stupid