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What do you think of this Trade Dollar? *COUNTRFEIT COIN & SLAB* More Pics Added

UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I just picked this up. The coin is a die struck counterfeit, not one of the cast counterfeit we're used to seeing. The coin in hand is very deceptive and would fool many. The font is slightly off, but very deceptive. The hologram is about as perfect as can be. The plastic has a slightly "softer" feel to it than a regular NGC slab. The ID number matches up to a genuine coin of the proper date date, grade and mint. This is the first counterfeit that I have handled and it's very scary. If someone went to a coin show with a few of these, he could probably dump a bunch of them....


image
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
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Comments

  • Dennis88Dennis88 Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭
    Have to see a better pic of. It looks nice overall, original for sure but I'm a bit worried for the field in front of libertyimage

    Dennis
    VOC Numismatics
    Like VOC Numismatics on facebook
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 10,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like its original crusty look.
    image
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 10,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...but the more I look at the pic, the slab font looks a little weird
  • SilverEagles92SilverEagles92 Posts: 6,787 ✭
    The font on the slab label looks a little off to me. Compare to this MS63 slab:

    image
    image
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  • AngryTurtleAngryTurtle Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭
    only way i could tell photos of chinese counterfeit slabs was by the way they carefully highlighted the hologram, so that you could see that it had one. This hologram looks pretty bright...
  • tightbudgettightbudget Posts: 7,299 ✭✭✭
    Fake slab
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 10,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay, for the record I posted my "the font looks weird on the slab" reply BEFORE you added "Counterfeit coin & slab" to the thread title and additional info in your post!

    ....ummm, but I also wrote that the coin looks original and crusty.........hey, it does look crusty! imageimage

    ....you'd think that the dang font of all things would be the easiest thing to copy!?
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The typeface on the label isn't what I'm used to seeing on NGC slabs. The presence of the hologram on the back is very worrisome.

    Are you sure the coin itself isn't genuine, but the slab is faked? The coin itself certainly doesn't look like an MS63 so I wonder if we aren't seeing a rerun of the grade shaving fake slabs from 1989 (PCGS at that time.)

    I recall a thread several months back that involved a NGC slab with a suspect typeface (though it was different than this one.) I never heard what the final determination on that coin and slab was.

    My feeling is that fake slabs are going to be a major numismatic issue during 2008. I hope the slabbing companies are watching this issue closely.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    I'm getting more and more glad that I'm deciding to refocus on areas where slabbing isn't an issue.
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
    That would have tricked me in an instant. =/
    NGC 2.1 Census! PM me yours!
  • MarkMark Posts: 3,543 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That coin is truly modern crap!
    Mark


  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭


    What happens when this trickle of quality counterfeits turns into a flood? Are the TPGs ready to deal with the problem or are their heads buried in the sand?image
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    That thing is scarey close.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    PS: I wonder if they are also accurately duplicating the bar code? It would be interesting to see of a scan of the code produced the correct information.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    It's crap like that that makes me put more and more of my disposable income into other ventures. The counterfeit slab issue has the potential to do massive harm to coin collector confidence. Once that's gone...the gig is up.

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭


    << <i>It's crap like that that makes me put more and more of my disposable income into other ventures. The counterfeit slab issue has the potential to do massive harm to coin collector confidence. Once that's gone...the gig is up. >>



    I agree completely and I would really like to see some serious action taken by the TPGs to address the problem. They need to start investigating and testing measures to improve the security of their slabs, if they aren't already. I hope they don't wait until the horse is out of the barn and confidence is lost. I don't believe we will see much of a problem with the really high end coins, they get too much attention. The few hundred $ to few $ dollar coins are where I would expect to see an increase in serious counterfeiting of TPG slabs..
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,714 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Has anyone looked up the serial number to see what NGC says it is?

    Is it even a real NGC number?
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Has anyone looked up the serial number to see what NGC says it is?

    Is it even a real NGC number? >>



    Yes, it is a correct number.
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • mheffner2mheffner2 Posts: 728 ✭
    Where did it ship from / seller location?
    Hi.
    My Odds&Ends eBay Stuff to fuel my coin habit (No Coins)
  • robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A fake NGC slab ??? UNBELIEVABLE !!!
    Ebay items for sale Current BIN's / The Kingdom Collection
  • ahooka454ahooka454 Posts: 3,466 ✭
    WOW that thing would have fooled me. glad i am trying to stick to people i know and pcgs slabs. are they being faked too ? tag them all. Put some sort of private cert# that you change when it sells. simple auto programed phone service. make it public for checking just the info, but in buying make it a single private tracking number, it cant be that hard. I would live if it cost a few bucks.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,306 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am not going to comment on whether it is good or not. As the current owner, what do you think of the grade? Does it look like a 63? From your images, I really think better images are needed...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AU 50/55 details (old cleaning), not sure by the pics. The Trade $ appears to be geniune...
    Ebay items for sale Current BIN's / The Kingdom Collection
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If that is truly counterfeit, we are in for some real trouble. Cheers, RickO
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The Trade $ appears to be geniune... >>



    It's also fake.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DOUBLE OUCH !!!
    Ebay items for sale Current BIN's / The Kingdom Collection
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see the dollar as counterfeit. AU details, but counterfeit without a doubt (but a VERY good one)
    If the insert said AU53, it would not have raised suspicion's
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,404 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I see the dollar as counterfeit. AU details, but counterfeit without a doubt (but a VERY good one)
    If the insert said AU53, it would not have raised suspicion's >>



    Have you contacted NGC regarding this?
    All glory is fleeting.
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I see the dollar as counterfeit. AU details, but counterfeit without a doubt (but a VERY good one)
    If the insert said AU53, it would not have raised suspicion's >>



    Have you contacted NGC regarding this? >>



    No, I would imagine they are aware of these.
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • SeaEagleCoinsSeaEagleCoins Posts: 3,262 ✭


    << <i>I see the dollar as counterfeit. AU details, but counterfeit without a doubt (but a VERY good one)
    If the insert said AU53, it would not have raised suspicion's >>




    ...ahhh-soooo...you here what american say? ...OK...chop chop back to work... make them a lower grade and I think we in business...

    ...add a fortune cookie with every coin...americans always like fortune cookie...


    image
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,120 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The opportunity is there to make a lot of money by counterfeiting slabs...a nickels worth of plastic, couple of pennies worth of paper and ink, 5 bucks worth of silver alloy and bam...you have something worth a few hundred dollars...and if you can unload them easily even better...which the Internet had enabled. Unfortunately many collectors (including myself) and dealers put a lot of faith in the slabs...plus unless your a specialist or just very good it is nigh impossible to know every coin in every series. I suspect once the issues with the Trade Dollars are worked through then the move will be made to other series such as Mercs, etc. It will be only a matter of time....recall that over the past few years these fakes have been getting better and better...and as the creators of these slabs are allowed to master their trade unfettered by the possibility of prosecution they can introduce the results of their efforts into the market over time, gauge acceptance, make adjustments, and start the cycle over.

    One thing the TPG's can do in the meantime is start providing stats on how often a cert number is looked up (and maybe a rough estimate of where by interpreting the IP). If your looking at a cert number that has been looked up even 10 times over the past few weeks assuming it is not for sale on eBay etc. then there is a possibility more than one person has a coin with the same cert...

    K
    ANA LM
  • EdscoinEdscoin Posts: 2,028 ✭✭✭
    Did you get it as a counterfeit, or only discover it was after you bought it?
    ED
    .....................................................
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,404 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I see the dollar as counterfeit. AU details, but counterfeit without a doubt (but a VERY good one)
    If the insert said AU53, it would not have raised suspicion's >>




    ...ahhh-soooo...you here what american say? ...OK...chop chop back to work... make them a lower grade and I think we in business...

    ...add a fortune cookie with every coin...americans always like fortune cookie...


    image >>



    If these are fakes, it may prove to be a mistake to assume they were made in Asia. Assume nothing.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977 ✭
    Great post UtahCoin. A must read for those who base their buy decisions solely on the plastic.
  • SeaEagleCoinsSeaEagleCoins Posts: 3,262 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I see the dollar as counterfeit. AU details, but counterfeit without a doubt (but a VERY good one)
    If the insert said AU53, it would not have raised suspicion's >>




    ...ahhh-soooo...you here what american say? ...OK...chop chop back to work... make them a lower grade and I think we in business...

    ...add a fortune cookie with every coin...americans always like fortune cookie...


    image >>



    If these are fakes, it may prove to be a mistake to assume they were made in Asia. Assume nothing. >>




    OK...I apologize...probably out of line with my post...at least with the Chinese thing...

    ...yet I can't help but picture whoever might be responsible for this (these?) fake(s)... watching to see the results of their "labors"... hearing comments describing how close they are and what the red flags were... then back to the drawing board...

    ...it is a double-edged sword... we do need to talk about it and let each other know about it... yet at the same time we are giving the counterfeiters an education...

    ...very perplaxing situation, really...
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Just one more reason why all collectors should buy only PCGS slabs.






























    image

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just imagine a nice contemporary counterfeit US gold coin in one of those nice fake TPG holders with a close-to-perfect grade to boot... GEEEZZZZZ !!!
    Ebay items for sale Current BIN's / The Kingdom Collection
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭


    << <i>only way i could tell photos of chinese counterfeit slabs was by the way they carefully highlighted the hologram, so that you could see that it had one. This hologram looks pretty bright... >>



    Is there some way to tell if it came from China?
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭


    << <i>...but the more I look at the pic, the slab font looks a little weird >>



    Given how good the rest of the slab is, it's odd that they couldn't replicate something as simple as the font. Maybe that is how we might be able to say it is from a place where the Roman alphabet is not used. One thing that collectors who don't read Chinese get hung up on when trying to detect fake cash coins is the poorly reproduced characters. They are obvious to anyone who can read Chinese but not to those who cannot read. Maybe it is the same thing here. To many of us the difference in font is striking but to those who do not read English all the time, it may seem "close enough."
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Sorry for the multiple posts but I will do it anyway...

    If there is a flood of fake slabs I do not think it will be be a serious blow to numismatics. Collectors will just have to know their material and be able to distinguish the real from the fake, which is what everyone has had to do since the beginning of the hobby however many millenia ago.

    It could be a serious problem for TPGs though but that's another issue entirely.
  • stev32kstev32k Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭
    Do you have any larger pictures? Can't really tell much from the images you posted.
    Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777 ✭
    utahcoin- how did you acquire this fake trade dollar?
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Is the font proof that the slab is fake? are there other issues that led you to question its authenticity?
  • stev32kstev32k Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭
    To be honest I can't see anything about the coin or the holder that leads me to believe it is fake. Do you have some other indications that do not show up in the photos? Maybe a larger image would help.
    Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    More pictures. Check the edge of the slab. It has a gap all the way around. The font is different, the 3 in the grade is a give-a-way.
    image
    image
    image
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I had a friend who was in China on business pick this up. We had an email address of a seller in China, and we arranged contact through email for him to meet and get this sample.
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
    The slab looks fake (amazing!!!!!!).

    Russ, you say the coin is fake as well? I'm not seeing that the coin is fake....it's looks genuine to me. Cleaned and low grade. What diagnostics make it look fake to you? I know the series pretty well.

    This is a little scary.

    keoj
  • pb2ypb2y Posts: 1,461 ✭
    The TD is a fake. The slab is a fake.
    Look at the irregular dentils. Other quirks
    are obvious.

    HAPPY NEW YEAR
    image

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fake coin, yes.

    The ribbon tips in LIBERTY ribbon should point left not down. Some denticles by foot are off, too.

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
    This is a type IIM obverse Trade Dollar (as opposed to a IIL obverse). The tips are correct and pointing in the right direction. The scroll is correct in that a IIM is slightly doubled on the right (near the word Trust). The denticles look beat up but not incorrect. What other diags do you see that are incorrect? I don't mean to cause trouble, just want to understand what looks so wrong.

    keoj



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