The coin is counterfeit, and it isn't even a very good quality fake at that. There is no mint luster at all, and the surfaces have a slightly pitted look in places.
<< <i>This is a type IIM obverse Trade Dollar (as opposed to a IIL obverse). The tips are correct and pointing in the right direction. The scroll is correct in that a IIM is slightly doubled on the right (near the word Trust). The denticles look beat up but not incorrect. What other diags do you see that are incorrect? I don't mean to cause trouble, just want to understand what looks so wrong.
keoj >>
Sorry, your are very correct on the ribbon ends.....guess I started celebrating (New Years) too quickly and my memory got twisted. Yes it's a type II obverse with the ribbons correctly pointing down. I will, however, stand by my Fake as the denticles are not good enough for me for the wear.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
<< <i>The opportunity is there to make a lot of money by counterfeiting slabs...a nickels worth of plastic, couple of pennies worth of paper and ink, 5 bucks worth of silver alloy and bam...you have something worth a few hundred dollars...and if you can unload them easily even better...which the Internet had enabled. Unfortunately many collectors (including myself) and dealers put a lot of faith in the slabs...plus unless your a specialist or just very good it is nigh impossible to know every coin in every series. I suspect once the issues with the Trade Dollars are worked through then the move will be made to other series such as Mercs, etc. It will be only a matter of time....recall that over the past few years these fakes have been getting better and better...and as the creators of these slabs are allowed to master their trade unfettered by the possibility of prosecution they can introduce the results of their efforts into the market over time, gauge acceptance, make adjustments, and start the cycle over.
One thing the TPG's can do in the meantime is start providing stats on how often a cert number is looked up (and maybe a rough estimate of where by interpreting the IP). If your looking at a cert number that has been looked up even 10 times over the past few weeks assuming it is not for sale on eBay etc. then there is a possibility more than one person has a coin with the same cert...
K >>
I'm not sure how that would help. I think if the TPG catalogued pictures of the obverse and reverse that you could double check on their website it would be helpful. I would think it would be somewhat difficult to duplicate a coin so that all the imperfections matched. That's the only thing I can come up with to protect the collector. This service would be free of course, it would protect the TPG's interests.
<< <i>The opportunity is there to make a lot of money by counterfeiting slabs...a nickels worth of plastic, couple of pennies worth of paper and ink, 5 bucks worth of silver alloy and bam...you have something worth a few hundred dollars...and if you can unload them easily even better...which the Internet had enabled. Unfortunately many collectors (including myself) and dealers put a lot of faith in the slabs...plus unless your a specialist or just very good it is nigh impossible to know every coin in every series. I suspect once the issues with the Trade Dollars are worked through then the move will be made to other series such as Mercs, etc. It will be only a matter of time....recall that over the past few years these fakes have been getting better and better...and as the creators of these slabs are allowed to master their trade unfettered by the possibility of prosecution they can introduce the results of their efforts into the market over time, gauge acceptance, make adjustments, and start the cycle over. One thing the TPG's can do in the meantime is start providing stats on how often a cert number is looked up (and maybe a rough estimate of where by interpreting the IP). If your looking at a cert number that has been looked up even 10 times over the past few weeks assuming it is not for sale on eBay etc. then there is a possibility more than one person has a coin with the same cert... K >>
I'm not sure how that would help. I think if the TPG catalogued pictures of the obverse and reverse that you could double check on their website it would be helpful. I would think it would be somewhat difficult to duplicate a coin so that all the imperfections matched. That's the only thing I can come up with to protect the collector. This service would be free of course, it would protect the TPG's interests. >>
From top to bottom. Complete and total bull crap !!!
This may sound silly, but how about weighing the fake "slabbed coin" and comparing it to the weight of known authentic slabbed NGC trade dollar. I don't know how much tolerance is in the weight of the plastic that NGC uses, but I would think it would be pretty tight.
Digital Postage Scale weighs it at 2.1 oz, the same as a Morgan in a NGC slab. I don't have a Trade Dollar in a NGC slab for comparison.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>I just picked this up. The coin is a die struck counterfeit, not one of the cast counterfeit we're used to seeing. The coin in hand is very deceptive and would fool many. The font is slightly off, but very deceptive. The hologram is about as perfect as can be. The plastic has a slightly "softer" feel to it than a regular NGC slab. The ID number matches up to a genuine coin of the proper date date, grade and mint. This is the first counterfeit that I have handled and it's very scary. If someone went to a coin show with a few of these, he could probably dump a bunch of them....
q]
FYI, most modern counterfeits are die struck, not cast. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>...but the more I look at the pic, the slab font looks a little weird >>
Look at the sides of the M in MS. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Sounds like maybe in the futher that true view quality images on file with the grading may be a requirmant of third party grading of our coins. Why buy sladed coins if you don't know if they are real or not. Just play the RAW game on eBay. And buy cheap reprodductions and everybody can have a complete collection of US Coins.
he opportunity is there to make a lot of money by counterfeiting slabs...a nickels worth of plastic, couple of pennies worth of paper and ink, 5 bucks worth of silver alloy and bam...you have something worth a few hundred dollars...and if you can unload them easily even better...which the Internet had enabled. Unfortunately many collectors (including myself) and dealers put a lot of faith in the slabs...plus unless your a specialist or just very good it is nigh impossible to know every coin in every series. I suspect once the issues with the Trade Dollars are worked through then the move will be made to other series such as Mercs, etc. It will be only a matter of time....recall that over the past few years these fakes have been getting better and better...and as the creators of these slabs are allowed to master their trade unfettered by the possibility of prosecution they can introduce the results of their efforts into the market over time, gauge acceptance, make adjustments, and start the cycle over.
pb2y - Can you explain why you think this is a bunch of baloney? I thought about the lookup of the cert number and in retrospect it would not be a good way at all as someone could just write a program to look cert numbers in sequence and then they all would have a lot of lookups....just would not provide any value. As far as the rest of my post if you think it is not going to happen, well it is already so I don't see how you think it is a bunch of cr*p...again, please enlighten me....there is always more for me to learn!
I was just going by what he said in his original post - that it's a struck counterfeit. Since it was purchased in China, that seems likely. BUT, more than anybody else who's posted in this thread, you certainly would have a better handle on it. If you believe it's the real deal, he should probably be taking another look.
Russ, you say the coin is fake as well? I'm not seeing that the coin is fake....it's looks genuine to me. Cleaned and low grade. What diagnostics make it look fake to you? I know the series pretty well.
This is a little scary.
keoj >>
I agree with Joe on this Trade Dollar being genuine. It appears that a genuine low grade coin has been encapsulated in a fake slab that has an inflated grade assigned to it. I think this is more dangerous to the hobby than putting a fake coin in a fake slab.
I have sent this off to NGC so they can see it. I stand by my statement that the coin is without a doubt counterfeit. I base this on having it in hand, which puts me at an advantage. I have been working with coins since the 1960's, so I'm not somebody that just fell off the turnip truck.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>I have sent this off to NGC so they can see it. I stand by my statement that the coin is without a doubt counterfeit. I base this on having it in hand, which puts me at an advantage. I have been working with coins since the 1960's, so I'm not somebody that just fell off the turnip truck. >>
It looks as if there is a seam on the edge of the obverse that looks strange to me. I have a few with chop marks that dont have that seam on their edge.
Russ, you say the coin is fake as well? I'm not seeing that the coin is fake....it's looks genuine to me. Cleaned and low grade. What diagnostics make it look fake to you? I know the series pretty well.
This is a little scary.
keoj >>
I agree with Joe on this Trade Dollar being genuine. It appears that a genuine low grade coin has been encapsulated in a fake slab that has an inflated grade assigned to it. I think this is more dangerous to the hobby than putting a fake coin in a fake slab.
Ray >>
I don't think a real coin is ever a threat to the hobby.
I would never purchase this coin and neither would most of you. It's obviously not the grade on the slab so would never give MS63 money for it. That's one disadvantage to being a "type" collector, you don't always know enough about a series to quickly recognize a fake. Example, I bought my 7070 Trade Dollar 25 years ago and it's the only one I have. This is a cause for concern, no doubt. Pete
"Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet." Louis Armstrong
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Russ, you say the coin is fake as well? I'm not seeing that the coin is fake....it's looks genuine to me. Cleaned and low grade. What diagnostics make it look fake to you? I know the series pretty well.
This is a little scary.
keoj >>
I agree with Joe on this Trade Dollar being genuine. It appears that a genuine low grade coin has been encapsulated in a fake slab that has an inflated grade assigned to it. I think this is more dangerous to the hobby than putting a fake coin in a fake slab.
Ray >>
I gotta agree with a fellow tool and die Guy!
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."
I emailed NGC about this to make them aware of this concern. I received an email today stating, "Thank you for the information, we are aware of this and pursuing it.
Just so everybody is aware, I contacted NGC and told them about this coin after a forum member he was contacted by NGC and asked to have me contact them. I told them that I purchased it knowing full well that both the coin and slab were counterfeit. I have sent it to them so they can study it. In spite of what some of you believe, the coin is without doubt a counterfeit, as is the slab.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Comments
There is no mint luster at all, and the surfaces have a slightly pitted look in places.
<< <i>This is a type IIM obverse Trade Dollar (as opposed to a IIL obverse). The tips are correct and pointing in the right direction. The scroll is correct in that a IIM is slightly doubled on the right (near the word Trust). The denticles look beat up but not incorrect. What other diags do you see that are incorrect? I don't mean to cause trouble, just want to understand what looks so wrong.
keoj >>
Sorry, your are very correct on the ribbon ends.....guess I started celebrating (New Years) too quickly and my memory got twisted. Yes it's a type II
obverse with the ribbons correctly pointing down. I will, however, stand by my Fake as the denticles are not good enough for me for
the wear.
bob
and the counterfeiter thanks you. We tell them
more than we should. Keepum guessun.
<< <i>The opportunity is there to make a lot of money by counterfeiting slabs...a nickels worth of plastic, couple of pennies worth of paper and ink, 5 bucks worth of silver alloy and bam...you have something worth a few hundred dollars...and if you can unload them easily even better...which the Internet had enabled. Unfortunately many collectors (including myself) and dealers put a lot of faith in the slabs...plus unless your a specialist or just very good it is nigh impossible to know every coin in every series. I suspect once the issues with the Trade Dollars are worked through then the move will be made to other series such as Mercs, etc. It will be only a matter of time....recall that over the past few years these fakes have been getting better and better...and as the creators of these slabs are allowed to master their trade unfettered by the possibility of prosecution they can introduce the results of their efforts into the market over time, gauge acceptance, make adjustments, and start the cycle over.
One thing the TPG's can do in the meantime is start providing stats on how often a cert number is looked up (and maybe a rough estimate of where by interpreting the IP). If your looking at a cert number that has been looked up even 10 times over the past few weeks assuming it is not for sale on eBay etc. then there is a possibility more than one person has a coin with the same cert...
K >>
I'm not sure how that would help. I think if the TPG catalogued pictures of the obverse and reverse that you could double check on their website it would be helpful. I would think it would be somewhat difficult to duplicate a coin so that all the imperfections matched. That's the only thing I can come up with to protect the collector. This service would be free of course, it would protect the TPG's interests.
<< <i>
<< <i>The opportunity is there to make a lot of money by counterfeiting slabs...a nickels worth of plastic, couple of pennies worth of paper and ink, 5 bucks worth of silver alloy and bam...you have something worth a few hundred dollars...and if you can unload them easily even better...which the Internet had enabled. Unfortunately many collectors (including myself) and dealers put a lot of faith in the slabs...plus unless your a specialist or just very good it is nigh impossible to know every coin in every series. I suspect once the issues with the Trade Dollars are worked through then the move will be made to other series such as Mercs, etc. It will be only a matter of time....recall that over the past few years these fakes have been getting better and better...and as the creators of these slabs are allowed to master their trade unfettered by the possibility of prosecution they can introduce the results of their efforts into the market over time, gauge acceptance, make adjustments, and start the cycle over. One thing the TPG's can do in the meantime is start providing stats on how often a cert number is looked up (and maybe a rough estimate of where by interpreting the IP). If your looking at a cert number that has been looked up even 10 times over the past few weeks assuming it is not for sale on eBay etc. then there is a possibility more than one person has a coin with the same cert... K >>
I'm not sure how that would help. I think if the TPG catalogued pictures of the obverse and reverse that you could double check on their website it would be helpful. I would think it would be somewhat difficult to duplicate a coin so that all the imperfections matched. That's the only thing I can come up with to protect the collector. This service would be free of course, it would protect the TPG's interests. >>
From top to bottom. Complete and total bull crap !!!
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>I just picked this up. The coin is a die struck counterfeit, not one of the cast counterfeit we're used to seeing. The coin in hand is very deceptive and would fool many. The font is slightly off, but very deceptive. The hologram is about as perfect as can be. The plastic has a slightly "softer" feel to it than a regular NGC slab. The ID number matches up to a genuine coin of the proper date date, grade and mint. This is the first counterfeit that I have handled and it's very scary. If someone went to a coin show with a few of these, he could probably dump a bunch of them....
q]
FYI, most modern counterfeits are die struck, not cast.
TD
<< <i>...but the more I look at the pic, the slab font looks a little weird >>
Look at the sides of the M in MS.
TD
I am now convinced.... sorry that it might take me alittle longer than most
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Why buy sladed coins if you don't know if they are real or not. Just play the RAW game on eBay. And buy cheap reprodductions and everybody can have a complete collection of US Coins.
pb2y - Can you explain why you think this is a bunch of baloney? I thought about the lookup of the cert number and in retrospect it would not be a good way at all as someone could just write a program to look cert numbers in sequence and then they all would have a lot of lookups....just would not provide any value. As far as the rest of my post if you think it is not going to happen, well it is already so I don't see how you think it is a bunch of cr*p...again, please enlighten me....there is always more for me to learn!
K
<< <i>Russ, you say the coin is fake as well? >>
Keoj,
I was just going by what he said in his original post - that it's a struck counterfeit. Since it was purchased in China, that seems likely. BUT, more than anybody else who's posted in this thread, you certainly would have a better handle on it. If you believe it's the real deal, he should probably be taking another look.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>The slab looks fake (amazing!!!!!!).
Russ, you say the coin is fake as well? I'm not seeing that the coin is fake....it's looks genuine to me. Cleaned and low grade. What diagnostics make it look fake to you? I know the series pretty well.
This is a little scary.
keoj >>
I agree with Joe on this Trade Dollar being genuine. It appears that a genuine low grade coin has been encapsulated in a fake slab that has an inflated grade assigned to it. I think this is more dangerous to the hobby than putting a fake coin in a fake slab.
Ray
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>I have sent this off to NGC so they can see it. I stand by my statement that the coin is without a doubt counterfeit. I base this on having it in hand, which puts me at an advantage. I have been working with coins since the 1960's, so I'm not somebody that just fell off the turnip truck. >>
It looks as if there is a seam on the edge of the obverse that looks strange to me. I have a few with chop marks that dont have that seam on their edge.
<< <i>
<< <i>The slab looks fake (amazing!!!!!!).
Russ, you say the coin is fake as well? I'm not seeing that the coin is fake....it's looks genuine to me. Cleaned and low grade. What diagnostics make it look fake to you? I know the series pretty well.
This is a little scary.
keoj >>
I agree with Joe on this Trade Dollar being genuine. It appears that a genuine low grade coin has been encapsulated in a fake slab that has an inflated grade assigned to it. I think this is more dangerous to the hobby than putting a fake coin in a fake slab.
Ray >>
I don't think a real coin is ever a threat to the hobby.
This is a cause for concern, no doubt.
Pete
Louis Armstrong
<< <i>
<< <i>The slab looks fake (amazing!!!!!!).
Russ, you say the coin is fake as well? I'm not seeing that the coin is fake....it's looks genuine to me. Cleaned and low grade. What diagnostics make it look fake to you? I know the series pretty well.
This is a little scary.
keoj >>
I agree with Joe on this Trade Dollar being genuine. It appears that a genuine low grade coin has been encapsulated in a fake slab that has an inflated grade assigned to it. I think this is more dangerous to the hobby than putting a fake coin in a fake slab.
Ray >>
I gotta agree with a fellow tool and die Guy!
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Thank you again,"
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>without doubt a counterfeit >>
I agree on both issues. The close up of the area around the date pushed me over the real coin to fake in short order.