What matters most of all is market perception. Although it is possible to buy properly graded ICG and ANACS coins at a discount I have always had to sell them at a discount also. The two top tpgs rarely cross them in the holder so you have to crack them out to get top dollar and that is risky because of hidden rim damage etc. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
Rick, I signed up for membership on the PCGS message board but don't yet have access to post. So, can you do me the favor of posting the following for me? Thanks for speeking up for me. Thanks! Mike Ellis >>
Guess I nailed it!! I wonder what percentage of folks from the "other" TPGs lurk here or are members here.
That big, long rectangular thing at the bottom of the keyboard is called a "space bar". It's highly effective when used following every comma and period.
<< <i>That big, long rectangular thing at the bottom of the keyboard is called a "space bar". It's highly effective when used following every comma and period. >>
Thank you for sharing that with us.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Guess I nailed it!! I wonder what percentage of folks from the "other" TPGs lurk here or are members here. >>
My guess is very few. While, hopefully, people enjoy what they do for a living, they don't live it 24/7. I don't know about you, but when I'm home, my leisure time does not include anything work-related.
Sorry MIke, but i think ICG is gone. Wait until you read the article in the Jan 14 edition of Coin World about both ICG and ANACS. I switched my subsription from the print version to the online version last night so I could read both front page articles concerning these "grading services". There is new info there, basically how ICG views this mess, that Taylor and other principals that left are violating their employment contracts, the lawers are sharping theri fangs for ICG in anticpation of lawsuits. After you read both articles in the Jan 14 editon of Coin Word, ask yourself how can ICG (and AN ACS) possibly come back as a credibe business entity. The more I thought about this yesterday the madder I got at James Taylor. He has destroyed both grading companies. First he uprooted ANACS from Columbus Ohio to Texas because of Ohio's negative business image. When he left ANACS to go back to Colorado he wanted to be closer to his family. Now he is close to his family and the grading service he wanted, but in doing this he has gutted both ANACS and ICG. It is also stated in this article that ICG was on the ropes and nearly bankrupt in 2002 and needed a $650,000 cash infusion from new owners to keep on going. The identity of the current owners are stated in the front page article (again on Jan 14.). I kind of feal sorry for the owners of ICG; the ones that put the cash behind them in 2002 so that they could keep going. I will be personally getting rid of all my ICG and ANACS plastic. Some stuff will be sold and the rest crossed over. The only legit grading services in my opinion now are PCGS, NGC, NCS, ans SEGS. All the rest are irrelevant. I would recommend to all that they divest themselves of all of their ICG and ANACS plastic, if it is at all feasable. I feel sorry for collectors who have huge quantities of coins in eithers holder. This will get even ughlier fast. Anyone that has coins at ANACS for grading had better anticipate signicant delays in getting their coins back. When they moved to Texas it took over three months for me to get a single coin back that was to be simply reholdered. And I had to call a couple of times to get expedited service. That's it for now -- hope this info is helpful to some of you. Happy New yers! Tom Arch
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
The owners of Coin World (Amos Press) are irrelevant to what is happening to ANACS and ICG. We all know who owns ANACS -- Driving Force LLC. In a few days it will be common knowledge who owns ICG. See the article on the front page of COIN WORLD. If you have access to the online editon of Coin World you can read the article today. I switched my subscription form print to online last night just to read the front page of the 1/14/08 edition of Coin World. (Tom)
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Rick, I signed up for membership on the PCGS message board but don't yet have access to post. So, can you do me the favor of posting the following for me? Thanks for speeking up for me. Thanks! Mike Ellis >>
Guess I nailed it!! I wonder what percentage of folks from the "other" TPGs lurk here or are members here. >>
I wondered if he was one of the group that got banned awhile back.
I really hate this whole mess. I feel bad for all the people that lost their jobs and I think it's bad for the hobby overall. My confidence in ANACS grading had dropped to a very low point after the first move now this. It looked to me like ICG was on their way to establishing a good reputation. There have been numerous comments on this board about the high quality coins in ICG holders and I personally bought several that were every bit as good or even better than PCGS coins. Now it looks like they are going downhill.
I don't understand why James Taylor moved the company to Colorado. If he wanted to be closer to his family he could have moved his family to Texas. That just does not seem like a good business decision to me. I've been involved in moving an office and setting up in a new location and I know how expensive it can be - not to mention the business interruption. Then it seems like the only way he can staff up with qualified graders is to raid ICG and I doubt that ICG will just sit back and do nothing if all their qualified people start leaving.
Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
Buffnixx ANACS has recently been sold by Anderson Press Coinworld is owned by Amos Press
you understand now?
History
In 1989 ANACS discontinued issuing photo certificates and began encapsulating coins in plastic holders. A year later, the ANA board of governors sold ANACS to Amos Press, publishers of Coin World. In March 2005, Anderson Press, the parent company of Whitman Publishing and H.E. Harris, became the proud owners of ANACS and its rich and noble history. Today, ANACS stands ready to reclaim its rightful position of preeminence as America’s oldest grading service.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that it does matter which holders your slabbed coins are in. Like I said, no more ANACS or ICG coins for me. Only PCGS, NCS, NGC, and SEGS. All others are irrelevant. I get tired of arguing with dealers about how PCI is no good or ANACS is no good or ICG is no good. I know all of the turmoil concerning ICG and ANACS makes for interesting reading and chat but: The holder does matter. Tom Arch BUFFNIXX
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Taylor's main reason for moving it to Colorado was so that he could scarf up all of the experienced ICG personnel -- Oh yes, and the second reason was he would still be near his family. ICG personnel probably would not have left to join ANACS in Texas. In order to update ANACS website with photos of their graders next week they can just cut and paste the photos from ICG's website. There is another potential lawsuit!! This whole thing is predatory capitalism at its worst (or best depending on your point of view.) And in the end the collector loses. Lets all remember that the "ANACS" that was located in Columbus OHio was a respected grading company, ranked right behind Hertz and Avis. It is now dead. (BUFFNIXX).
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>As for crossing or dumping you ANACS and ICG (and PCI) coins, if you bought the coin and not the holder, does it matter? >>
Actually yes it does matter when selling to virtually ANY dealer and like it or not it does have an effect on collectors too.
I recall showing a dealer my ANACS MS63RB 1955/55 a couple of years ago. I can't recall exactly what the insulting offer was but the first thing out of his mouth was that it was in the "Wrong" holder.
Well I crossed it to PCGS, scratch that, MS64RB at PCGS and sold it to another dealer for 4K plus.
Of course the plastic matters. The Top Tier TPGs have won the war. Anyone who suggests otherwise is either trying to pull one over on you, or is incredibly naive. If it is in an ICG, or ANACs holder there is a reason. Dealers are not in the habit of leaving money on the table.
<< <i> As for crossing or dumping your ANACS and ICG (and PCI) coins, if you bought the coin and not the holder, does it matter? >>
Finally, a few words of sanity here. >>
Yup, yer right, it doesn't matter if you don't intend to sell the coin. Effen dealers will try to lowball you cuz a the holder no matter how PQ for the grade it is. Of course this has been true for a LONG time.
<< <i>Great Goose! A better comparison (to the point I was making) would be to offer it in the holder - get an offer and then offer it RAW and get an offer.
Then of course, send it in and get it upgraded and sell it for more. >>
Even if it just crosses it will still be worth more.
The "raw" offer would have been certainly even more insulting.
While it doesn't matter if you intend on keeping the coins, come time to sell them to a collector and especially a dealer, the plastic (at times) is more important than the coin to the majority. You can see that right here on this very board almost daily.
I should have walked it around "raw" and done that though Rick. I dare to dream of the BS that would have been spewed in my direction.
Rick, since you essentially stated that the plastic doesn't matter if you like the coin.................... why only Photoseal on NGC/PCGS?
My experience with ICG is when I bought some Presidential Dollar coins from a tv seller graded ICG ms67. I got the coins and they were pretty bad 67's with quite a few bag marks. I then sent to ICG using a voucher some of my better Jefferson nickles that were of the condition that on similar submissions to NGC I got 66's and 67's. They came back 64's and 65's. Now I think some graders are hard like PCGS and some are easy like NGC within limits but I felt that ICG was inconsistent and got the feeling that they were prostituting their standards for the high volume tv seller and sticking me with tough standards. Me-no-likey.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
"recall showing a dealer my ANACS MS63RB 1955/55 a couple of years ago. I can't recall exactly what the insulting offer was but the first thing out of his mouth was that it was in the "Wrong" holder"
This kind of thing has happened to me. It's very disturbing to say the least. Did some dealers turn into grading morons with the advent of the TPG's?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
As a collector who is assembling a set of coins and is not looking to sell, then the holder should not matter. It is the coin that you are enjoying.
I also sell raw coins that I grade and will buy-in as if they were PCGS/NGC photo sealed. I did just that with a collection I bought just before the holiday's. They were bought raw, ANACS, NGC, PCGS from me and all were broken out of their holders. I bought them at the same grade as I sold them regardless of the holder, because I agreed with the grades (because I originally graded them, or they were Photo sealed NGC and PCGS coins). If he cracked out non-photo sealed NGC/PCGS coins, then who knows what I would grade them.
For reasons that are very obvious, I do not photo seal ANACS coins. I have photo sealed ICG coins in the past, but that population is now 0, I believe, as I have bought them all back and crossed them to PCGS. As a dealer the holder does matter.
Sometimes when I post it is with my collector hat on, sometimes it is my dealer hat.
Russ, Yes, you are right. But I feel that if you need the holder to justify the grade (as in MS-70 moderns) you are buying the holder not the coin.
Griv I have no idea what this photo has to do with the topic at hand, I do think it is in poor taste to mock the Mother of a Fallen Soldier.
>>
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>Griv I have no idea what this photo has to do with the topic at hand, I do think it is in poor taste to degrade the grilled cheese sandwich with such a comparison.
>>
>>
I agree
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
When she became a political activist, she became fair game for criticism.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
dbldie55 if you have an opinion you should state it yourself instead of changing a quote. Enjoy your freedom, it's cost was not free.
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
We have all lost loved ones in times of war. Anyway, it's funny if you ask me and being the "Mother of a Fallen Soldier" should not shield her from humor especially when she brings it upon herself.
<< <i>When she became a political activist, she became fair game for criticism. >>
And just how does it apply to the original post??
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>When she became a political activist, she became fair game for criticism. >>
And just how does it apply to the original post?? >>
It doesn't but I didn't bring the subject up. How did your post, which I responded to, apply to the original post?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>PCGS is the only company I would let slab my coins. Period.
>>
My original post was specifying my view on where I would slab my coins and ICG tain’t it. The picture was just to bring a little chuckle on New Years Day. Here's another one.
dd55, I almost missed your reply if not for texast. Funny comment. I haven't been able to eat grilled cheese without tears since I saw this.
Comments
The two top tpgs rarely cross them in the holder so you have to crack them out to get top dollar and that is risky because of hidden rim damage etc. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>This is what Mike started his letter with:
Rick,
I signed up for membership on the PCGS message board but don't yet have access to post. So, can you do me the favor of posting the following for me?
Thanks for speeking up for me.
Thanks!
Mike Ellis >>
Guess I nailed it!!
<< <i>That big, long rectangular thing at the bottom of the keyboard is called a "space bar". It's highly effective when used following every comma and period. >>
Thank you for sharing that with us.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Guess I nailed it!!
My guess is very few. While, hopefully, people enjoy what they do for a living, they don't live it 24/7. I don't know about you, but when I'm home, my leisure time does not include anything work-related.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
and then there were 2.... which leads to my 2008 prediction that a certain someone is going to open a new highly respected TPG stay tuned....
I switched my subscription form print to online last night just to read the front page of the 1/14/08 edition of Coin World. (Tom)
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>
<< <i>This is what Mike started his letter with:
Rick,
I signed up for membership on the PCGS message board but don't yet have access to post. So, can you do me the favor of posting the following for me?
Thanks for speeking up for me.
Thanks!
Mike Ellis >>
Guess I nailed it!!
I wondered if he was one of the group that got banned awhile back.
I really hate this whole mess. I feel bad for all the people that lost their jobs and I think it's bad for the hobby overall. My confidence in ANACS grading had dropped to a very low point after the first move now this. It looked to me like ICG was on their way to establishing a good reputation. There have been numerous comments on this board about the high quality coins in ICG holders and I personally bought several that were every bit as good or even better than PCGS coins. Now it looks like they are going downhill.
I don't understand why James Taylor moved the company to Colorado. If he wanted to be closer to his family he could have moved his family to Texas. That just does not seem like a good business decision to me. I've been involved in moving an office and setting up in a new location and I know how expensive it can be - not to mention the business interruption. Then it seems like the only way he can staff up with qualified graders is to raid ICG and I doubt that ICG will just sit back and do nothing if all their qualified people start leaving.
ANACS has recently been sold by Anderson Press
Coinworld is owned by Amos Press
you understand now?
History
In 1989 ANACS discontinued issuing photo certificates and began encapsulating coins in plastic holders. A year later, the ANA board of governors sold ANACS to Amos Press, publishers of Coin World. In March 2005, Anderson Press, the parent company of Whitman Publishing and H.E. Harris, became the proud owners of ANACS and its rich and noble history. Today, ANACS stands ready to reclaim its rightful position of preeminence as America’s oldest grading service.
<< <i>Is there a merger in the making? I would think that`s their best shot at making it. >>
0 + 0 = 0
Yes, and it's called CAC!
I think ANACS will survive and eventually flourish. They may have to position themselves for the telemarketers to survive, but survive they will.
Also, don't count out PCI. It may yet be bought by a repectable entity that will try to give it a go as well.
As for crossing or dumping you ANACS and ICG (and PCI) coins, if you bought the coin and not the holder, does it matter?
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>
As for crossing or dumping your ANACS and ICG (and PCI) coins, if you bought the coin and not the holder, does it matter? >>
Finally, a few words of sanity here.
(BUFFNIXX).
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>As for crossing or dumping you ANACS and ICG (and PCI) coins, if you bought the coin and not the holder, does it matter? >>
Actually yes it does matter when selling to virtually ANY dealer and like it or not it does have an effect on collectors too.
I recall showing a dealer my ANACS MS63RB 1955/55 a couple of years ago. I can't recall exactly what the insulting offer was but the first thing out of his mouth was that it was in the "Wrong" holder.
Well I crossed it to PCGS, scratch that, MS64RB at PCGS and sold it to another dealer for 4K plus.
So, yes, the flavor of plastic matters.
<< <i>So, yes, the flavor of plastic matters. >>
Of course the plastic matters. The Top Tier TPGs have won the war. Anyone who suggests otherwise is either trying to pull one over on you, or is incredibly naive. If it is in an ICG, or ANACs holder there is a reason. Dealers are not in the habit of leaving money on the table.
<< <i>
<< <i>
As for crossing or dumping your ANACS and ICG (and PCI) coins, if you bought the coin and not the holder, does it matter? >>
Finally, a few words of sanity here. >>
Yup, yer right, it doesn't matter if you don't intend to sell the coin. Effen dealers will try to lowball you cuz a the holder no matter how PQ for the grade it is. Of course this has been true for a LONG time.
Then of course, send it in and get it upgraded and sell it for more.
<< <i>Great Goose! A better comparison (to the point I was making) would be to offer it in the holder - get an offer and then offer it RAW and get an offer.
Then of course, send it in and get it upgraded and sell it for more. >>
Even if it just crosses it will still be worth more.
While it doesn't matter if you intend on keeping the coins, come time to sell them to a collector and especially a dealer, the plastic (at times) is more important than the coin to the majority. You can see that right here on this very board almost daily.
I should have walked it around "raw" and done that though Rick. I dare to dream of the BS that would have been spewed in my direction.
Rick, since you essentially stated that the plastic doesn't matter if you like the coin.................... why only Photoseal on NGC/PCGS?
<< <i>As for crossing or dumping you ANACS and ICG (and PCI) coins, if you bought the coin and not the holder, does it matter? >>
Of course it matters. It's naive to believe otherwise. It's market reality, and that reality has just been magnified.
Russ, NCNE
This kind of thing has happened to me. It's very disturbing to say the least. Did some dealers turn into grading morons with the advent of the TPG's?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Probably not but I think some have turned into jerks who think they can badmouth a coin or holder for a fatter margin.
As a collector who is assembling a set of coins and is not looking to sell, then the holder should not matter. It is the coin that you are enjoying.
I also sell raw coins that I grade and will buy-in as if they were PCGS/NGC photo sealed. I did just that with a collection I bought just before the holiday's. They were bought raw, ANACS, NGC, PCGS from me and all were broken out of their holders. I bought them at the same grade as I sold them regardless of the holder, because I agreed with the grades (because I originally graded them, or they were Photo sealed NGC and PCGS coins). If he cracked out non-photo sealed NGC/PCGS coins, then who knows what I would grade them.
For reasons that are very obvious, I do not photo seal ANACS coins. I have photo sealed ICG coins in the past, but that population is now 0, I believe, as I have bought them all back and crossed them to PCGS. As a dealer the holder does matter.
Sometimes when I post it is with my collector hat on, sometimes it is my dealer hat.
Russ, Yes, you are right. But I feel that if you need the holder to justify the grade (as in MS-70 moderns) you are buying the holder not the coin.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>Griv I have no idea what this photo has to do with the topic at hand, I do think it is in poor taste to degrade the grilled cheese sandwich with such a comparison.
>>
I agree
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>When she became a political activist, she became fair game for criticism. >>
And just how does it apply to the original post??
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>
<< <i>When she became a political activist, she became fair game for criticism. >>
And just how does it apply to the original post?? >>
It doesn't but I didn't bring the subject up. How did your post, which I responded to, apply to the original post?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>PCGS is the only company I would let slab my coins. Period.
My original post was specifying my view on where I would slab my coins and ICG tain’t it. The picture was just to bring a little chuckle on New Years Day. Here's another one.
dd55, I almost missed your reply if not for texast. Funny comment. I haven't been able to eat grilled cheese without tears since I saw this.
Oops, typo.