The conclusion of my PayPal horror story
iras4
Posts: 300
I thought I'd repeat my story, which, after 2 years, has finally come to a conclusion. I never reported the end of the story, so here it is.
In November of 2005, an eBay bidder won a real nice red 1909-S VDB 1c (PCGS MS-65RD) amidst considerable competition. At that time, I had accepted PayPal for most of my auctions and the winning bidder charged his purchase to AMEX, his credit card company, through PayPal. A couple of days later he left me positive feedback and I did the same for him.
Fast forward three and one half months from the date of the sale. PayPal debited my PayPal account for the full amount $6213 plus a processing fee. Buyer claimed it was an unauthorized charge. I had send the coin to a CONFIRMED address via Registered Mail. Upon my request the PO send me a copy of the slip the buyer had to sign when he picked up the notice from his PO box and collected the item from his local post office.
I tried to contact the buyer who by this time had charged his phone number to an unlisted one and his e-mail address was changed as well. I then contacted his local sheriff's office with all the details of the transaction and complained of wire fraud as well as mail fraud. A couple of hours later an investigator contacted me with more questions. Must have been a slow day, as they found the buyer and brought him into the sheriff's office. Buyer said he wasn't able to pay the AMEX credit card bill and was ignoring their request for payment. Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! PayPal claimed that under their guidelines, the credit card company can make the final decision and they generally side with the buyer. In any case the buyer agreed to pay me $6000 within the week. An Express Mail arrived about a week later with a bank draft for $1300. This time I had the buyer's cell phone number and I called him. Said he no longer had the coin and was short but he'd sent me another $1000 in two weeks. He sent $300. In all, he repaid about $2300 of the $6213 and then no longer answered his cell phone when my ID came up. Contacted the sheriff's investigator, and he said that by accepting even even $1.00 against a debt, it was now a civil matter and that he could do nothing further.
Local lawyers in the area (Arkansas..I am in NY) wanted between a $3000 to $5000 retainer to take to small claims court as they thought the defaulting buyer would get several delays and this would cost them time and $$, thus the size of the retainer.
Didn't pay to pursue that avenue so I had my local att'y file a summons and complaint against both AMEX and PayPal. Bottom line, I received another $1000 from AMEX after my att'y took his fee. PayPal insisted on arbitration as they can do under their 35 pages of conditions in the agreement a vendor must accept. I then used the National Arbitration Forum ( they recommended this organization) I handled copying all the documents, notes from the buyer, proof of delivery, etc. My cost for this was about $250.
In the end, The National arbitration Forum sided with PayPal as they say the PayPal agreement REQUIRES I use PayPal's own delivery confirmation even though they are limited to $2000 maximum value. (The coin was over $6000). In all, after expenses, I collected a little less than half of what was owed.
I have since discovered that if I mail an item using Registered Mail, the USPS will ONLY track using the barcode on the Regisitered Mail red sticker and not the one on PayPal's preprinted mailing label. I just tried to track a sale in which the buyer used PayPal on an item starting out at $1799 but sold for $2350. I cannot track it online as the USPS has no record of item being mailed! I can see where the item was accepted at my local PO using the Registered Mail tracking number.
I believe on some low cost ($500 or less items) PayPal MAY be useful in protecting the seller IF you ship to a confirmed ADDRESS and use PayPal's delivery confirmation label. Otherwise, I think the risk is wholly upon the seller if he encounters a dishonest buyer.
Ira
In November of 2005, an eBay bidder won a real nice red 1909-S VDB 1c (PCGS MS-65RD) amidst considerable competition. At that time, I had accepted PayPal for most of my auctions and the winning bidder charged his purchase to AMEX, his credit card company, through PayPal. A couple of days later he left me positive feedback and I did the same for him.
Fast forward three and one half months from the date of the sale. PayPal debited my PayPal account for the full amount $6213 plus a processing fee. Buyer claimed it was an unauthorized charge. I had send the coin to a CONFIRMED address via Registered Mail. Upon my request the PO send me a copy of the slip the buyer had to sign when he picked up the notice from his PO box and collected the item from his local post office.
I tried to contact the buyer who by this time had charged his phone number to an unlisted one and his e-mail address was changed as well. I then contacted his local sheriff's office with all the details of the transaction and complained of wire fraud as well as mail fraud. A couple of hours later an investigator contacted me with more questions. Must have been a slow day, as they found the buyer and brought him into the sheriff's office. Buyer said he wasn't able to pay the AMEX credit card bill and was ignoring their request for payment. Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! PayPal claimed that under their guidelines, the credit card company can make the final decision and they generally side with the buyer. In any case the buyer agreed to pay me $6000 within the week. An Express Mail arrived about a week later with a bank draft for $1300. This time I had the buyer's cell phone number and I called him. Said he no longer had the coin and was short but he'd sent me another $1000 in two weeks. He sent $300. In all, he repaid about $2300 of the $6213 and then no longer answered his cell phone when my ID came up. Contacted the sheriff's investigator, and he said that by accepting even even $1.00 against a debt, it was now a civil matter and that he could do nothing further.
Local lawyers in the area (Arkansas..I am in NY) wanted between a $3000 to $5000 retainer to take to small claims court as they thought the defaulting buyer would get several delays and this would cost them time and $$, thus the size of the retainer.
Didn't pay to pursue that avenue so I had my local att'y file a summons and complaint against both AMEX and PayPal. Bottom line, I received another $1000 from AMEX after my att'y took his fee. PayPal insisted on arbitration as they can do under their 35 pages of conditions in the agreement a vendor must accept. I then used the National Arbitration Forum ( they recommended this organization) I handled copying all the documents, notes from the buyer, proof of delivery, etc. My cost for this was about $250.
In the end, The National arbitration Forum sided with PayPal as they say the PayPal agreement REQUIRES I use PayPal's own delivery confirmation even though they are limited to $2000 maximum value. (The coin was over $6000). In all, after expenses, I collected a little less than half of what was owed.
I have since discovered that if I mail an item using Registered Mail, the USPS will ONLY track using the barcode on the Regisitered Mail red sticker and not the one on PayPal's preprinted mailing label. I just tried to track a sale in which the buyer used PayPal on an item starting out at $1799 but sold for $2350. I cannot track it online as the USPS has no record of item being mailed! I can see where the item was accepted at my local PO using the Registered Mail tracking number.
I believe on some low cost ($500 or less items) PayPal MAY be useful in protecting the seller IF you ship to a confirmed ADDRESS and use PayPal's delivery confirmation label. Otherwise, I think the risk is wholly upon the seller if he encounters a dishonest buyer.
Ira
Dealer/old-time collector
0
Comments
<< <i>Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! >>
This sure seems like Amex is engaging in fraud.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! >>
This sure seems like Amex is engaging in fraud.
Russ, NCNE >>
No kidding,
If you could get him to back this story up, there could be a major lawsuit against AMEX.
<< <i>So why aren't both tracking numbers available thru the USPS since they are two different systems? Is the PP label tracking number never entered into the USPS system? >>
Sometimes when there are multiple tracking numbers on a package the post office only scans one of them. i.e. you can get the package and show that it never arrived because they may have only scanned one of two or three tracking numbers.
<< <i>
<< <i>Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! >>
This sure seems like Amex is engaging in fraud.
Russ, NCNE >>
I fully agree since they are encouraging the buyer to lie in stating that the charge was unauthorized when the buyer knew full well that he had received the item he purchased with this "unauthorized charge"!
However, proving this requires the cooperation of the buyer who has now dropped out of site.
I don;t have any answers here but the obvious solution is in blowing off PayPal for big ticket items and only accepting Money Orders or cashiers checks. Shipment up receipt of an authenticated payment form. (u.e. NO CREDIT CARDS)
The name is LEE!
So sorry for your experience and loss.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Unbelievable. What a nightmare.
Why are you letting this guy off of the hook? I would make his life a living hell until he paid you the balance owed. And the thing about this being a civil matter doesn't seem right either. I think you can still file in Small Claims and get some sort of a garnishment against him (and you wouldn't need an attorney).
<< <i>
<< <i>So why aren't both tracking numbers available thru the USPS since they are two different systems? Is the PP label tracking number never entered into the USPS system? >>
Sometimes when there are multiple tracking numbers on a package the post office only scans one of them. i.e. you can get the package and show that it never arrived because they may have only scanned one of two or three tracking numbers. >>
Scanning and using is one thing but shouldn't the tracking number still be in the system? Or does the USPS have to scan it in when you present the package for mailing?
I would of brought charges against the guy who stoled your coin that is plain and simple. Your first mistake was you made a deal with a thief, a scumbag, a snake, if he did you wrong the first time how in the world did you think he was going to pay you in full the second time.
Amex got their money, Paypal didn't lose their fees, the snake slipped away and you got left holding a lifetime lesson. Happy Christmas anyways it's not the end of the world.
I remember reading this before. Thank you for giving the conclusion. Sorry for the issues you have faced.
I do wonder about the guy saying Amex told him to do the chargeback...he was already a proven crook...who's to say he wasn't lying on that in order to try to shift the blame? Looks like Amex had to cough up some $$$ but it wasn't stated if they admitted guilt or not....
When I have sold, with paypal being used, on anything over $500, I have had to go to the Post Office anyway, in order to get more than $500 insurance. Sounds like, even if it is possible to use paypal's shipping for insurance over $500, I was doing the right thing.....I only had the 1 tracking (from the USPS itself) and nothing went through paypal's shipping at that point.
Again, sorry for your pain on this....that sucks!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Guess it's a good thing for po' folk like me that I don't have any coins worth more than $2000 to sell.
I still can't believe AMEX told him to say it was an unauthorized charge so they could do a chargeback.
<< <i>This is the kind of case I'd love to sit on as a jury member. >>
<< <i>And the thing about this being a civil matter doesn't seem right either. I think you can still file in Small Claims and get some sort of a garnishment against him >>
I believe that most Civil matters (depending on the amount) are handled through small claims court. Criminal matters are not.
<< <i>This is the kind of case I'd love to sit on as a jury member. >>
Tom, the statue of limitations may have ran out on this case. Some States are 2 yrs, others 3 while still other States longer.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! >>
This sure seems like Amex is engaging in fraud.
Russ, NCNE >>
No kidding,
If you could get him to back this story up, there could be a major lawsuit against AMEX. >>
Exactly... isn't this the definition of colusion?
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<< <i>This is why I'm an unverified paypal member, I have a confirmed address though. They have no bank account to take money from and unless I offer a refund (3 days) I withdraw the money via check immediately ( or after 3 days of delivery confirmation says delivered if no return requested) I leave no money for paypal to take. >>
If the withdrawl request from your Paypal account to your bank account has competed, Paypal cannot just take money out of your bank account. If there is money in your Paypal account they will draw from that or if you send a payment to someone else through PayPal they can intercept it but they can't just take money out of your bank account.
I don't.
Steve
<< <i>PayPal can't just take money out of your bank account. >>
Oh yes they can. The thing is that you can then tell your bank it was an unauthorized debit and get it back.
are they offshore? or do they have to follow any states banking regulations?
<< <i>
<< <i>PayPal can't just take money out of your bank account. >>
Oh yes they can. The thing is that you can then tell your bank it was an unauthorized debit and get it back. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>PayPal can't just take money out of your bank account. >>
Oh yes they can. The thing is that you can then tell your bank it was an unauthorized debit and get it back. >>
Initiating a debit from your bank account without your consent is wire fraud. Paypal does not and cannot do that. If they can't recover the money from your Paypal account, your account will go to collections.
<< <i>Sorry that happened to you, Do you guys really think AMEX told him to do that?
I don't.
Steve >>
I do and know personally of a few who did just what the scum buyer did- for some very large ticket items.
I would never use or accept a Amex card- ever. and it seems that with the $ amount being so high it could warrant a Superior court session for the buyer- need to get that boy locked up. Better yet- send us his ebay name and current addy we all have friends in the country..
<< <i>Sorry that happened to you, Do you guys really think AMEX told him to do that? >>
This is not the first time I've heard of an Amex account rep suggesting it to a cardholder. It's one of the reasons I decided long ago not to accept Amex through my regular business merchant account. The other being their higher merchant fees.
Russ, NCNE
After hearing a story like this one, I'd never accept paypal for anything over 1K in value. Sorry to hear about this, iras4. Too many people in this world are dirtbags and thieves these days. It's a shame.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So a previous poster is correct. They can take money out of your account. You can also get it back, but it might not be worth it.
If you put the number on the USPS insurance sticker in the USPS website tracking box it should come up the same as delievery confirmation does.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Buyer said he wasn't able to pay the AMEX credit card bill and was ignoring their request for payment. Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! >>
What most likely happened here, when AMEX caught up with him, HE'S the one who claimed it was an unauthorized charge. Probably pretended to know nothing about it after he ignored his AMEX statements for 3 months. I wonder how long he had the '09S-VDB, before he converted it to (around) $5,000 cash, which is probably what he really needed to begin with. I don't think for one second that AMEX conspired with him to commit fraud. Anyway, a real nightmare of an ordeal!
<< <i>This is the kind of case I'd love to sit on as a jury member. >>
As much as I dislike jury duty, I have to agree with you on this one Tom.
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etexmike
<< <i>
<< <i>This is the kind of case I'd love to sit on as a jury member. >>
Tom, the statue of limitations may have ran out on this case. Some States are 2 yrs, others 3 while still other States longer. >>
Agreed, but there are countless others just like it tho probably not so much in this neck of the woods. In fact I was scheduled to be called last thurs, but round one has come and gone.
<< <i>
<< <i>This is the kind of case I'd love to sit on as a jury member. >>
As much as I dislike jury duty, I have to agree with you on this one Tom.
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etexmike >>
Yeah, I'd slam their A$$ so fast they would get whiplash from watchin me do it.
I didn't read all the responses but if he no longer has the coin, what did he do with the money from the sale of it?
This truly sucks and I would find a way to make this b*stard's life as miserable as possible.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This is the kind of case I'd love to sit on as a jury member. >>
As much as I dislike jury duty, I have to agree with you on this one Tom.
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etexmike >>
Yeah, I'd slam their A$$ so fast they would get whiplash from watchin me do it. >>
That usually doesn't happen until after they are incarcerated.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I thought I'd repeat my story, which, after 2 years, has finally come to a conclusion. I never reported the end of the story, so here it is.
In November of 2005, an eBay bidder won a real nice red 1909-S VDB 1c (PCGS MS-65RD) amidst considerable competition. At that time, I had accepted PayPal for most of my auctions and the winning bidder charged his purchase to AMEX, his credit card company, through PayPal. A couple of days later he left me positive feedback and I did the same for him.
Fast forward three and one half months from the date of the sale. PayPal debited my PayPal account for the full amount $6213 plus a processing fee. Buyer claimed it was an unauthorized charge. I had send the coin to a CONFIRMED address via Registered Mail. Upon my request the PO send me a copy of the slip the buyer had to sign when he picked up the notice from his PO box and collected the item from his local post office.
I tried to contact the buyer who by this time had charged his phone number to an unlisted one and his e-mail address was changed as well. I then contacted his local sheriff's office with all the details of the transaction and complained of wire fraud as well as mail fraud. A couple of hours later an investigator contacted me with more questions. Must have been a slow day, as they found the buyer and brought him into the sheriff's office. Buyer said he wasn't able to pay the AMEX credit card bill and was ignoring their request for payment. Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! PayPal claimed that under their guidelines, the credit card company can make the final decision and they generally side with the buyer. In any case the buyer agreed to pay me $6000 within the week. An Express Mail arrived about a week later with a bank draft for $1300. This time I had the buyer's cell phone number and I called him. Said he no longer had the coin and was short but he'd sent me another $1000 in two weeks. He sent $300. In all, he repaid about $2300 of the $6213 and then no longer answered his cell phone when my ID came up. Contacted the sheriff's investigator, and he said that by accepting even even $1.00 against a debt, it was now a civil matter and that he could do nothing further.
Local lawyers in the area (Arkansas..I am in NY) wanted between a $3000 to $5000 retainer to take to small claims court as they thought the defaulting buyer would get several delays and this would cost them time and $$, thus the size of the retainer.
Didn't pay to pursue that avenue so I had my local att'y file a summons and complaint against both AMEX and PayPal. Bottom line, I received another $1000 from AMEX after my att'y took his fee. PayPal insisted on arbitration as they can do under their 35 pages of conditions in the agreement a vendor must accept. I then used the National Arbitration Forum ( they recommended this organization) I handled copying all the documents, notes from the buyer, proof of delivery, etc. My cost for this was about $250.
In the end, The National arbitration Forum sided with PayPal as they say the PayPal agreement REQUIRES I use PayPal's own delivery confirmation even though they are limited to $2000 maximum value. (The coin was over $6000). In all, after expenses, I collected a little less than half of what was owed.
I have since discovered that if I mail an item using Registered Mail, the USPS will ONLY track using the barcode on the Regisitered Mail red sticker and not the one on PayPal's preprinted mailing label. I just tried to track a sale in which the buyer used PayPal on an item starting out at $1799 but sold for $2350. I cannot track it online as the USPS has no record of item being mailed! I can see where the item was accepted at my local PO using the Registered Mail tracking number.
I believe on some low cost ($500 or less items) PayPal MAY be useful in protecting the seller IF you ship to a confirmed ADDRESS and use PayPal's delivery confirmation label. Otherwise, I think the risk is wholly upon the seller if he encounters a dishonest buyer.
Ira >>
I think the sheriff's investigator missed one or more crimes. The deadbeat implicated AMEX in a conspiracy to defraud. That you attempted a recovery does not alter the intent of the conspirators. All elements of the crime were satisfied long before you tried to mitigate. If it could be shown that AMEX does this routinely, then there is also the matter of RICO and treble damages. That is admittedly much tougher to establish.
Looks like paypal skates. It would seem that they could modify their rules to protect sellers and garner more business.
Interesting that ebay views the seller as the customer and paypal the buyer which tends to leave good folks twisting in the wind!
Aside, Ira, I was the guy who won the scratched 1815/2 a couple years ago. While it is a shame she was damaged so, I am still impressed with the strong strike, especially to the L wing. If you sell any more and want to refer back to that transaction (you had a nice 1815/2 up a few weeks ago), you have my permission to add that the buyer remains happy with the specimen after 2.5 yrs!
<< <i>I don;t have any answers here but the obvious solution is in blowing off PayPal for big ticket items and only accepting Money Orders or cashiers checks. Shipment up receipt of an authenticated payment form. (u.e. NO CREDIT CARDS) >>
I agree with blowing off PayPal but what about all the phoney money orders and bank/cashier checks that are out there? How long do you wait until you ship after receiving one of these payment types? I heard somewhere it can take 30 days or more to authenticate a payment by MO or bank/cashiers check.
Iras,
Sorry to hear about the problem and the end results.
wanna bet.
They are sleazy, very sleazy.
edit: just noticed that someone said FeePal was sued and they no longer can do it. They are still sleazebags!
"I'd say for $6,000 dollars, it would be worth it to purchase a plane ticket to wherever he lives and bring a baseball bat and break his hands and legs. In fact, it would be worth it to bring a few friends to help out."
or for a few hundred dollars, you could hire some crackheads to do it for you
<< <i>
<< <i>Claims they finally called him and when he told them he didn't have the $$ says AMEX told him to do a chargeback claiming unauthorized charge and that's what he did! >>
This sure seems like Amex is engaging in fraud.
Russ, NCNE >>
Amex maybe bozos..but hard to believe they would advise illegal actions..the buyer is just wiggling out of paying..... by stating so.
<< <i>Paypal is prohibited from directly debiting your bank account in a charge back situation. They did at one time, but were sued and are no longer able to do so. If a seller suffers a chargeback with a zero Paypal balance, he will see a negative balance instead. Any subsequent payments to that account will be applied against that negative balance. If it is not paid after a certain period of time, Paypal can and will refer it to a collection agency.
After hearing a story like this one, I'd never accept paypal for anything over 1K in value. Sorry to hear about this, iras4. Too many people in this world are dirtbags and thieves these days. It's a shame. >>
Won't paypal send out their own dogs..... collectors?
RE: arbitration; there have been several court rulings which have thrown out EULAs that insist on arbitration rather than lawsuit. If it was financially feasible (obviously not in this case), someone could have sued PayPal anyway--despite the arbitration nonsense in their agreement.