Commems--Dispose or Hold?
DRUNNER
Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭✭✭
Obviously I value many of the opinions here, and not being a frequent thread-starter (new verb), it takes some prompting to get me to fill bandwidth . . .
I have spent some years assembling a nice Classic Commem set, now complete with the exception of the Lafayette (owned two but neither really floated my boat) and averaging 65. Lots of fun to do, and for all the right reasons. I teach as a profession, use several in conjunction with my lessons, and enjoy them, but in general, they sit tucked away in PCGS slabs (was once on the first page of the Registry, but the heavy hitters have knocked it down a ways) secure, seldom seen, and never displayed.
Several trusted dealers have remarked of late that Commems are lagging in the market, and may (will) continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I subscribe to all publications and they seem to unanimously agree. My other focuses are Morgans and Type, so I have substantial collecting interests aside from holding the Commems. I also have no heirs; the Commems (and other coins) are part of an ultimate 'retirement' strategy anchored by other investments, but I am a realist and don't want to tie up a large chunk of money in a series that financially has little potential upside.
I don't have to sell, but I see options and have started to entertain the possibility (you probably know the feeling . . . "what would life be like without my Commems?").
Looking for perspectives . . . collector and dealer. If you feel selling is appropriate, would you auction (I have a super connection at Heritage), sell to your trusted dealers, or BST? Other options?
No . . . not wanting to sell or advertise here. If I did, I'd obviously go BST. In any case, I have loads of time and am wanting opinions, not offers. (Just a Forum Police disclaimer.)
No ulterior motives. I'm just sitting here looking at the PCGS boxes and wondering if I should branch out a bit.
Thanks . . .
Drunner
I have spent some years assembling a nice Classic Commem set, now complete with the exception of the Lafayette (owned two but neither really floated my boat) and averaging 65. Lots of fun to do, and for all the right reasons. I teach as a profession, use several in conjunction with my lessons, and enjoy them, but in general, they sit tucked away in PCGS slabs (was once on the first page of the Registry, but the heavy hitters have knocked it down a ways) secure, seldom seen, and never displayed.
Several trusted dealers have remarked of late that Commems are lagging in the market, and may (will) continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I subscribe to all publications and they seem to unanimously agree. My other focuses are Morgans and Type, so I have substantial collecting interests aside from holding the Commems. I also have no heirs; the Commems (and other coins) are part of an ultimate 'retirement' strategy anchored by other investments, but I am a realist and don't want to tie up a large chunk of money in a series that financially has little potential upside.
I don't have to sell, but I see options and have started to entertain the possibility (you probably know the feeling . . . "what would life be like without my Commems?").
Looking for perspectives . . . collector and dealer. If you feel selling is appropriate, would you auction (I have a super connection at Heritage), sell to your trusted dealers, or BST? Other options?
No . . . not wanting to sell or advertise here. If I did, I'd obviously go BST. In any case, I have loads of time and am wanting opinions, not offers. (Just a Forum Police disclaimer.)
No ulterior motives. I'm just sitting here looking at the PCGS boxes and wondering if I should branch out a bit.
Thanks . . .
Drunner
0
Comments
When the future seems the darkest, with no apparent potential, is when the commems will move again. We may finally be at that point. Money is needed to promote them. While it's hard to swim against the tide and stay vested in commems when most every dealer calls them a dog, it may finally be the time to go against the grain. They are easily promotable and I can't see why some of the market makers and boiler houses have not given it a go. For now they are happy to stick with Sacs, Prez's, Mint and Proof set offerings, etc. But it could change on a dime.
I've seen major dealers whittle down their commem offerings over the past few years because the demand has slacked. And I don't see those guys beefing back up. My suggestion would be touch base with major players (past and present) and get their views. There are several major collectors right here on the forum. I wouldn't lend any weight to a local B&M's opinion or your average show dealer. If commems are being silently tucked away, you and I won't hear about it until the CDN is plussing all over the place.
roadrunner
that works against a seller like you. if you approach a dealer at a show or shop with the whole collection, you'll almost certainly get bid or less depending on his niche and stock. at a large auction(even your well-connected Heritage) you'll be against better, choice coins and probably lose due to the fees. my approach has always been to do some research to find where i'll realize the best return and then i sell at my leisure. i got rid of my Full Step Jefferson Nickel Set in that manner. on the other hand, i have also bulk consigned stuff with the mindset of just getting rid of it to free money for other items and the results have been good.
in both cases i have chosen to hold back the very best items which i have sold at eBay for full retail plus, at the BST for full retail plus or to dealers only when i could sell at my price and not their price. since you seem to be in no hurry, just do some investigating and sell from a point of advantage. if you've bought nice coins irrespective of the insert grade you should come out ahead of where you started while getting to keep the choicest coins in the bankbox!!!
prices they asked? there was quite a buzz about that set and many
people seemed to want them.
that was just a few months ago.. and i would not call that flat or dead.
loosing interest in to fund new iniatives. If you dont need to sell, but want to add to another facet of collecting
try to sell them on BST first,...I know you'd probably have a taker in me. Ive done the morgans and type already, and I now work
on Early Commems, Im about 2/3 the way done the ones i want
However, it sounds as if this is more than merely a long-term investment for you. You appear still be deriving a lot of enjoyment from it--not only for yourself, but also for the people you share it with as well. I tend to agree with 'ricko', why not put them away for a while if you can afford it, and enjoy them a while longer.
As I upgrade, I have attempted to sell my old PCGS 66's(nice coins) commons to dealers and they didn't even make an offer. On the other hand the same dealers have their commems at very high prices. These same high priced coins have been in their display case for many years. One told me he doesn't encourage collecting commems because they are too hard to find. Of the dozens of stores I've visited there have been an average of maybe 5 per store and most of those are commons.
The auction sites and ebay have quite a few available but many of them are not attractive coins and the ones that are, whether nicely toned or white command a substantial premium as Keets stated.
The NGC registry for classic commems is nonexistent. I have a few top 20 sets and all have a couple of hundred views or more. My top 15 commem set has had 17 views.
The prices on these coins reached in the late 80's were highly speculative and they are still suffering a hangover effect from that.
These are not coins because they were not intended for circulation so many classic collectors have no interest in commems.
All of the above contributes to the current prices on classic commemoratives. From a simple supply and demand point of view, supply outstrips demand currently. Ironically, I have heard a lot of foreign collectors currently embrace this American series. (A lot of that kind of thing going on lately)
The mintages for these issues are low enough that if even a small number of collectors start to take an interest you should see a shift in supply and demand.
The memory of the 80's will fade as new collectors enter the series and dealers will be more than happy to make a market again.
As far as these coins were not intended for circulation, neither were proofs so no classic collector should have any proofs in their collections.
These are beautiful coins that tell American history in the 20th century and will appreciate in value. I hope you hold onto them but whatever you decide good luck.
JH
PS, I agree on the Lafayette - so hard to find a nice one!
Proof Buffalo Registry Set
Capped Bust Quarters Registry Set
Proof Walking Liberty Halves Registry Set
Good points all . . . and I agree. They are quite fun to have and with no immediate need to change my position, the majority of the advice here (hold and enjoy) is certainly sound. I'll reread your posts again and continue to process the good information . . .
Drunner
If collectors hold on to collections they enjoy and possibly enjoy improving there will be less on the market and then the potential for return is there in the long haul.
Keep on collecting and slowly upgrading,
Get your collection in the online registry,
with some GOOD quality pictures, so you
easily "visit" them now and then.
Classic commems will have their day again.
Investment cycles come and go, just sit
back and have some fun and the market
will come to you eventually.
Regards, Steve K.
If you don't need the money then hold things until they go up. Commems are
extremely dead for a mutitude of reasons but none are that they aren't fun to
collect or a very worthy endeavor.
They may be "diluted" somewhat by the many modern and ultramodern commems
but nothing can take anything away from the older coins.
In ten years everyone may well be saying that it was obvious they were under-
priced and that the sky's the limit. You should have sold shortly before the first
time you hear this. It won't be the best price but it will be an easy sale and with
the least risk.
Commemoratives are just part of one of those pesky long cycles-within-cycles to which coin collecting is subject.
priced and that the sky's the limit. You should have sold shortly before the first
time you hear this. It won't be the best price but it will be an easy sale and with
the least risk.
haven't we already said that?? i think i hear an echo...................
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
not a day goes by some collector or dealer isnt contacting me about buying some of my commems.....so from this side of the " coin" the market is very hot....maybe its because they look like my avatar....lol...speaking of avatars....5 of my coins are pcgs avatars ....which is a nice compliment
heck.....pinnacle sold over 100 of the hidden liberty collection in 5 days at very strong prices many from 30,000 to 50,000 each
i can tell you the seller made well over a half of a million dollars on it though........so i guess from his prospective the market aint too bad.....i can also tell you i sold him a few coins in 1999 and he just made over 400% profit on them ....boy was i a dummy .....unless of course you figure that i have exactly 0 in a certain monster coin in ms 68 from that deal
numis
>>>>>The prices on these coins reached in the late 80's were highly speculative and they are still suffering a hangover effect from that.>>>>
sorry guy your all wrong...... the fact is....and i did say FACT......these coins are off the charts and are bringing huge numbers today.....not trying to bust you but its appartent to me you do not understand the market.....as i said ....these very same coins you talk of in the late 80s that just brought 30,000 to 50,000 each last month!!!!...let me say that again..... these very same coins just brought 30,000 to 50,000 each last month!!!!
now here is part of your problem
your commemt about the prices of the 80s refers to the best of the best.....as those prices are what made headlines back then aka price history of yester year and were the cream of the crop....and were in 65 and 66 holders then....and still the cream of the drop today.......only in 67 and 68 holders today
how did this happen???
simple.... the tpg have figured out how to make another 500 million dollars instead of the 100 million they started out to make in 1986....how this is done is by giving the market what it wants...and that is ...ranking coins....yep ranking coins for the registry...this is done by slowly raising a coin in grade if it is superior to the others in the present grade to the next grade...this is also known as grade flation....and in 5 more years if its the nicest they have seen in the new grade ...and now with company in that grade.....up it goes again if it is superior to the others in the new higher grade ( all this time the same coin ...as well as a slew of others ....goes in for regrade 20 to 50 times generating huge revenue )...so you see the coins you refer to way back then in 65 and 66 holders are still bringing huge prices...only today they are in 67 and 68 holders....and just as they were the best back then...they are still the best today
it always amazes me when collectors think by using today`s grading totals for commems that they really have a better set than those of yester year.....ridiculous .....as they are the same coins ...only in higher grades today and they are the best today just as they were the best back then...and still the same coins
now for this comment
>>>>>The NGC registry for classic commems is nonexistent. I have a few top 20 sets and all have a couple of hundred views or more. My top 15 commem set has had 17 views.
while NGC redid their sight last year all the views were zeroed out thus all views vanished ..oh well...my set has over 3200 views today so i see no problem......now this is NOT intended to p you off but i have noticed over my life time that when people talk about football rankings say things like " ohio state is in the top 10 "...or the news says southern call broke into the top 10 this week...ect...ect...same in basketball...nascar racing....need i go on??? unfortunately nobody remembers who lost last years championship...just who won if that.....and as cruel as it sounds nobody goes looking for who is 15th on the commem list.....thats just the way it is.....of course unless if you were 15th on the commem list....and of course ( i just had to go look because i didnt have a clue )...unless you are from clemson...who isnow 15th on the polls
sorry ....but i just dont think view counts of this >>>My top 15 commem set has had 17 views>>> is indicative of the health of the commem market but what i will say is that there are indeed 2 distinct commem markets.....and those are
1) monster toned
2) those that arent
the monster toned market is very alive and well......and i do agree the other is not.. those very same monsters in #1 are having no problems finding buyers.....the problem is the buyers finding willing sellers....now that's a problem believe me...thus the price has to go up to coax a coin out ....as for the weakness in the #2 category ..i put the blame on the moderns which are indeed promoted by the mint which are then promoted by dealers who are answering the demand created by said mint`s promotion......imho these potential commem collectors are off on a tangent and i hope in time will evolve into what i call " real coins"...the classic commems...white or monsters.....now this might just p some people off but the moderns are very dangerous to me as there are literally hundreds if not thousands of ms 70s now with low pops.....and if they ever knew the truth they would run for the hills...but for now they think they are safe owning them...on the other hand if thousands of new collectors step up and all pay big bucks for those ms 70s then all is well....but i doubt that will happen....so the best i can hope for is that some survive the huge loss they will be taking and stay in the hobby and hopefully find commems
ok now...let the fireworks begin
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I see the same thing in the "2-Tier" Commem market. I also notice the same thing to an extent in Morgans. The gonzo toners are still raking in the big bucks. My set is not going to compete in the top tier and I know it.
Thanks monsterman . . . and all the collectors with insights who have weighed in on this.
Drunner
>>>>My set is not going to compete in the top tier and I know it.
>>>
there are just so many who can compete at the top tier but i can assure you ...i....as well as any commem collector worth a hoot will appreciate coins that are terrific coins for the grades ...
case in point....
there are some beautiful w/c out there for sale right now with a great look in ms 65 that can be had for under 50 dollars.....the way i see it one less steak a month for 2 years and show me a full box of them and i will be very impressed...its not that tuff.....but then again it is....its sorta like golf....everyone keeps playing because it is not that easy because if it was easy nobody would play
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
If you are not sure about the future of your collection then it is good to think about alternatives. When in that position the best thing is to identify a handful of coins you wouldn't miss. Maybe it is 3 coins that you have never been happy with. Maybe you have a dozen or so that look dull and blah complared to the rest and which are very easy to replace. Anyway when you have looked through the commems with a very critical eye and found some coins to sell by all means go through with it and sell them. That is a great learning experience.
I would use the proceeds to build up the type set. I specifically didn't say Morgans because Type coins rock my world. I appreciate Morgans and would want several in my set but I would never attempt to complete that date/MM set... anyway the point is for you to go through the exercise and see if anything new lights your fire.
<< <i>haven't we already said that?? i think i hear an echo................... >>
The great keets has spoken. The thread can end now.
unless i find out that they are making more of them like they are dollars
lol
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
The question is what will happen to the 90-95% of commems in 64-67 grades that aren't anything special to look at? It's hard to say
if those will recover in price anytime soon regardless of how underrated they seem compared to later modern commems.
roadrunner
Drunner stated he has a 65 average on the coins in his collection. My collection is likewise. The market we are referrring to has NOT, and I repeat, not been hot. Your high dollar examples don't apply to the discussion here. Frankly, the top end of EVERY series has been on fire (to use your term). However, Lafayette's, Spanish Bay's , Hudson's, Antietam's, Missouri's, etc. (let alone commons) in 63-65 have not been hot. If you research Heritages archives these coins have not gone up, and in some cases have come down in the last 5 years.
As far as gradeflation it obviously exists, but I don't know what your point is relating to our discussion. I use the registry primarily as a database of my coins and serial numbers not to compete with others. If I want to compete it will be in business or on the golf course. I do however, admire and view other sets that I will never be able to put together.
As far as moderns I truly believe a big part of this hobby's (term lightly used) gain in base comes from entry into the modern COINS and then discovering older COINS. A hobby should provide it's participant's with pleasure, and in the case of numismatics, possibly financial gains. Personally I have lost more in my hobby than I like to admit, but I love learning and looking at coins so the hobby has done me well. If my children get benefit of financial gains from my collection (hopefully many years from now,lol) all the better.
Good luck with your MONSTERS!
Hell, I buy almost anything with a low mintage in good condition.
I had people here laugh at my becasue I was buying any and all $2 1/2 gold with mintages are 5k at below GS. Over the 18 months these coins have performed very well.
Sell when others are buying and buy when others sell.
I also agree with the previous posters that these coins are classics with low mintages, these and all the classics should do well over time as oppsoed to the modern crap.
I will take a look, separate the generic from the special (that is a concept I needed some prodding on from the Boards), and give it some thought. I can continue to motor along and enjoy having them but in time I may move further along that Type road.
One more thought . . . it occurred to me last night and again on some shoulder rehab this morning (got to get in golf shape) . . . it may be impossible to find anywhere else you can present a question to a cross-section of experts and afficionados and gain a year's numismatic education in one simple thread. I know, the Boards has pros and cons, but for my money (uh, what money?), this advice and series of perspectives is invaluable.
I appreciate it . . . and the time many have taken to consider the question.
Drunner
- Mintage: The mintage on many of these issues is fairly low which is a good thing.
- Dealer interest: This is important because CCHDs first became hot during 80s when many dealers started promoting them (the 80s version of HSN?). I'm not sure CCHDs were ever that popular without some external marketing program driving demand. Will dealers get organized to push CCHDs again in the future?
- Collector interest: Given the low mintages, how many coin collectors are interested in CCHDs? Before there were classic business strikes and CCHDs as the primary collecting areas for the masses. Many other things have started to come into collecting focus recently giving CCHDs more competition for interest including modern commems, American Eagle bullion coins, patterns, errors and SCDs. With collectors outside the mainstream of classic business strikes being fragmented into so many interests, will CCHDs ever have as prominent position has they have had in the past?
- Type collecting: With the modern commem series, SHQs and PDs, new collectors are being trained to collect by type which may be a plus for CCHDs and a minus for the date/mintmark market.
- Overall interest in coin collecting: As the baby boomers age, there will be fewer collectors. There is also reports that the younger generation isn't as interested in collecting anyway. So, less interest and less people. The other thing is that many new Americans are of Hispanic and Asian descent. Will these people feel as much connection to the US history represented by CCHDs. As mentioned there are more foreign collectors interested in CCHDs now. So is this a wash or is one direction more likely than another in terms of future demand.
My Classic Commem holdings are just below the big price jump in grade, simply cannot afford the next higher grade. If I started selling off my Commems, I would certainly start with the most common issues. It would be hard for me to sell the rarer issues in which I have dups, and I likely will never sell my NGC PL Commems.
Most all of my collection is blast white, meaning maybe a light blush and lots of luster. Those monster coins are simply out of reach for most of us.
Monsterman knows all about the monsters, and he can afford to buy them. My guess is only about 1% of Classic Commem collectors have such deep pockets, and are willing to spend what it takes. Last I heard, the registry sets do not give extra consideration to toning.
Merry Christmas, Comer Coins...
i love those pls.....i have several blast whiteones myself....and if you ever want to give me a shot at them ...please do
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
The important point is it only takes a fraction of these to start collecting classic commems for this series to start taking off.
I would hold on to these.
<< <i> I just read an article from a fairly recent David Lawrence news letter. He states that this series is a sleeper. He mentions that the Mint distributes fliers to 6,000,000 collectors and many of them are collecting modern commems.
The important point is it only takes a fraction of these to start collecting classic commems for this series to start taking off.
I would hold on to these. >>
Sounds like a business plan?
It's important to consider why you would think a fraction of those collectors would pick up classic commems, not just that they automatically would.
<< <i>In reply to your subtle comments Monsterman:
Drunner stated he has a 65 average on the coins in his collection. My collection is likewise. The market we are referrring to has NOT, and I repeat, not been hot. Your high dollar examples don't apply to the discussion here. Frankly, the top end of EVERY series has been on fire (to use your term). However, Lafayette's, Spanish Bay's , Hudson's, Antietam's, Missouri's, etc. (let alone commons) in 63-65 have not been hot. If you research Heritages archives these coins have not gone up, and in some cases have come down in the last 5 years.
As far as gradeflation it obviously exists, but I don't know what your point is relating to our discussion. I use the registry primarily as a database of my coins and serial numbers not to compete with others. If I want to compete it will be in business or on the golf course. I do however, admire and view other sets that I will never be able to put together.
As far as moderns I truly believe a big part of this hobby's (term lightly used) gain in base comes from entry into the modern COINS and then discovering older COINS. A hobby should provide it's participant's with pleasure, and in the case of numismatics, possibly financial gains. Personally I have lost more in my hobby than I like to admit, but I love learning and looking at coins so the hobby has done me well. If my children get benefit of financial gains from my collection (hopefully many years from now,lol) all the better.
Good luck with your MONSTERS! >>
I sit, depending on day or month, somewhere between 9 and 15 in the 50 typeset registry. Mine are 65.?? in average. Heck, most of the top collectors are 65.??
The difference comes from the quality of the coins. If your commems are bright white 65s, my guess is that they are not going much of anywhere in the market. OTOH, if you have any eye appealing degree of color (whether like Gregg's or 2nd tier toners like mine), well then, I think you've got something that will always have a market.
I'm not ashamed to say that I've bought Bingham's and/or Scher's hand-me-downs. These are great coins! I've got one of Bingham's, Grant with Star in PCGS 65 that I paid midway 65-66 money for and after 1 year, just turned down almost a $2,000. profit for it. I hesitate to call it "monster" but it is a VERY attractively toned coin. If not for a bag mark/small scratch (take your pick), on the obverse, it would be a 67, not a 66 and, remember, it sits in a 65 holder.
I think it depends on the eye appeal of the commems you have. Bright white, dipped etc. commems....blah. Any honest, real toning; whether is it subtle...all the way to monster, will always have a strong market.
One big, well-respected, dealer, nameless, told me recently that he can't figure the commem market out so he's discounting most everything heavily. Well, I sold him back one a year ago and he's taking a $500. hit now (PanPac) to move it. The coin is a PCGS 65 and should be a star if they did it. Any collector who sees it and wants a PCGS 65 with real attractive, both sides, eye appeal toning should be grabbing this coin. Someone, eventually, will realize the bargain and grab it. Unlike Gregg, I can't afford dupes or I'd buy it back.
I agree that modern owners are the tip of the classic iceberg. Eventually, they will tire of playing the 70 game and gravitate to the classics. In the meantime, I sit and wait for the opportunities to buy at lower prices. Those with good stuff, maybe not Bingham level, should sell now, if they are thinking about it, because the long termers like myself, once we buy an upgrade thereby decrease the chances that we will find your coins more attractive and worth the hassle of selling ours to buy yours.
>>>>As far as gradeflation it obviously exists, but I don't know what your point is relating to our discussion
my point is simple ....for example ....if i had 50 coins that were all the of the neighborhood of the best in 1986 and locked them in a safe for 20 years then they would all be in old shacker 65 and 66 holders today .....taking them out now and looking at the gs prices and comparing the grades to the prices i would of had the value of my collection actually go down.......however if i regraded them today they would all go up to 67 and 68 and reestabishing themselves once again as being in the neighborhood of being the best there is in 2007....and therefore making a huge increase in value
a guy i once knew who owned a baseball card store once told me " i sell fun" meaning for your 20 dollars you can buy an rc of your favorite star....which is great ....i do the same in commems....however each of us have their own limits as to the cost of fun.....and for me ...when you exceed that you wear more hats such as the
fun hat
and the
investment hat
this additional hat brings along with it more responsibility....such as a 100% understanding of the market ...for example
1) i must ( i love to anyway ) go to shows....for it is here i get to see the monsters...it is here i get to cut off the collectors who dont from getting the cream of the crop...as once they leave the shows in dealrs boxes to be sold to his clients they are gone for a long long time
2) i must know all the dealers.....especially the ones who always seem to have said monsters
3) i must establish my self as a " player" where as dealers will offer me coins ....aka 1st shot
4) i must know the upgraders and who they are for they play a vidal role in the market place and are an extra set of eyes.....wouldnt you just love to of purchased jim halprins " didnt work " commems from 2004......if they were pq coins to him in 2004....what would they be in 2008???
5) i must know their cash flow situation...not easy to do but i must keep my finger on their pulse.....last months auction bills which are now due does increase their need for cash...i have snaped up many a monster at a lower figure then they would of liked to of gotten
6) i must have good eyes myself and know exactly what a pq coin is and what isnt
7) i must know the entire series....and where each coin i see stands in relation to all the others
8) i must know exactly what the tpg s are looking at and looking for on each series and the nuances of each
9) i must know where the value is....monster toned texas is in short supply in comparison to boones.....and those who try to buy monster toned texas in 67 at anywhere near gs is lost and wont buy a thing...then wonder why their collection isnt what it should be....
i could go on and on but then i would reveal things that took me years to figure out
demand starts at the top down not from the bottom up......and i can assure you if you follow the rules above and buy pq coins for the grade you wil do well in the long run
also remember collectors have a huge advantage over dealers and upgraders...and thats time...they have very limited time to hold a coin.....collectors do not
suffice to say i have had a tremendous % of hits at the upgrade window vers upgraders......as many of my coins are indeed the ones that didnt work for them a few years ago.....but they do now.....you see they are up at the upgrade window today with lesser coins trying to upgrade them than the coins of yester year.....and when the tpg sees mine ( which used to be theirs ) compared to theirs now....i win ....and they dont
bottomline is the best collectors ....aka skilled will always do the best vrs the others
there a song that goes like this
want the beamers the benzes......better go out and get it
cause
if you think its coming to you .....you better forget it
need i say more???
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Thankfully, the demand is not boiling over yet, like the Barber halves in same grades, so the prices are still right at 'sheet'-- well, most of the time.
Don
Steve
<< <i>
I agree that modern owners are the tip of the classic iceberg. Eventually, they will tire of playing the 70 game and gravitate to the classics. >>
There are enough modern and ultra-moderns to keep a collector busy for a lifetime.
Perhaps some will prefer to stay where they feel more welcome.
Perhaps some will prefer to stay where they feel more welcome>>>
not bashing the mordern guys.....but that market reminds me of jonestown.......where they all seemed to be like deer in the headlights
and all drank the koolaid
the dundamental problem i have with the moderns is the shear numbers of ms 70 coins that can/will be made
suffice to say that if the demand for the six ms 70 coins there are today increases from 6 to 12 collectors then the price will go up....probelm is so can the population....but the fact remanins...the population can go from 6 to 50....then what???....or the pop goes from 6 to 100
for my money.....its not a good bet because i know darn well that there are indeed 100s of ms 70s out there just waiting to be deemed so
not true with the classics
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I'm going to print that off and save it. There is a wealth of knowledge there. Perhaps it's only news to me, but I can read that over a few times and read between the lines. Much info there . . . and it comes from that window of numismatics that the 'average' collector like myself only gets to look through a very rare once in a while.
It has meaning for me specifically in the issues I possess that are 'average' and 'average for the grade'. It also has meaning for me regarding my better pieces.
Thanks all.
Drunner
<< <i>I just got done with monsterman's last post . . . was hosting the X-Mas morning party here and was late.
I'm going to print that off and save it. There is a wealth of knowledge there. Perhaps it's only news to me, but I can read that over a few times and read between the lines. Much info there . . . and it comes from that window of numismatics that the 'average' collector like myself only gets to look through a very rare once in a while.
It has meaning for me specifically in the issues I possess that are 'average' and 'average for the grade'. It also has meaning for me regarding my better pieces.
Thanks all.
Drunner >>
Got that right!
<< <i>>>>>There are enough modern and ultra-moderns to keep a collector busy for a lifetime.
Perhaps some will prefer to stay where they feel more welcome>>>
not bashing the mordern guys.....but that market reminds me of jonestown.......where they all seemed to be like deer in the headlights
and all drank the koolaid
the dundamental problem i have with the moderns is the shear numbers of ms 70 coins that can/will be made
suffice to say that if the demand for the six ms 70 coins there are today increases from 6 to 12 collectors then the price will go up....probelm is so can the population....but the fact remanins...the population can go from 6 to 50....then what???....or the pop goes from 6 to 100
for my money.....its not a good bet because i know darn well that there are indeed 100s of ms 70s out there just waiting to be deemed so
not true with the classics
monsterman >>
I buy a $10. plat proof every year because I like the look and the varied designs.
This past year, I submitted them....well, because I had grading certificates that weren't being used.
Now, I've never checked a one of them. Never, returned one to the Mint. I just took the ones sent to me. Net result, I got two 70's out of the bunch. The point is, how many others are out there, in every modern...just waiting to be made.
I like moderns, don't get me wrong. They have some brilliant works of art in them. However, IMHO, that is where the coin bubble stands most readily and easily able to be burst. 70's are, basically, playing craps at Vegas. You hit, you win. Eventually, the crowd will figure out that the odds are better at another game. That's where classics come into play.
I learned more from one phone call, (over an hour out of the blue, albeit with an invitation to do so, not a true cold call) from Gregg, then I've learned from anyone else, ever, in the coin market save for Warren Mills, who I regard as the single best dealer/coin appraiser in the world. Bingham KNOWS classic commems. Talk about your silent market maker.
Try this...go to any bourse dealer. Tell him that you have a classic commem that Warren likes and is also one of Bingham's. You've got a dealer with a bull's eye on his chest and you have all the ammo. Name your price. I know because I have and I've gotten it with almost no questions asked.
Not that I sell that much. I've reached a point in my collection where upgrades are few and far between and can, many times, be within grade rather than higher. That's ok, because I know my 65.?? ranked 9-15 whenever, are made of keepers that will bring back a very pleasant ROI should I ever have to sell them....key word being "ever" because I don't plan to ever do so.
<< <i>I just read an article from a fairly recent David Lawrence news letter. He states that this series is a sleeper. He mentions that the Mint distributes fliers to 6,000,000 collectors and many of them are collecting modern commems.
The important point is it only takes a fraction of these to start collecting classic commems for this series to start taking off.
I would hold on to these. >>
I couldn't say it better myself.