eBay What Would You Do--Another Update 12/13--Buyer Back to Being Unreasonable
airplanenut
Posts: 22,250 ✭✭✭✭✭
I sold a 1/2 oz. and 1/4 oz. Platinum last week on eBay, and accidentally sent the 1/4oz. to the buyer of the 1/2oz. Ok, big mistake, I know it. The buyer immediately screamed complaints of fraud, and went straight to a claim (not a dispute) with PayPal.
Anyway, I asked that he send the coin back (at my cost) and I'll either refund him everything plus shipping, or refund the shipping and overnight the 1/2oz. piece to him. His reply is that he'll send the coin he has (worth about $350) back to me when I refund his $750 and change. He has good feedback, but something makes this seem fishy to me that this could be a long-winded process to get the coin back, and I certainly don't want to be out the money and coin.
So how would you reply? I'd like the coin overnighted back so I can get it to its rightful owner; if I sit on the 1/2oz. after refunding him, then that's not a major concern of mine.
Jeremy
Anyway, I asked that he send the coin back (at my cost) and I'll either refund him everything plus shipping, or refund the shipping and overnight the 1/2oz. piece to him. His reply is that he'll send the coin he has (worth about $350) back to me when I refund his $750 and change. He has good feedback, but something makes this seem fishy to me that this could be a long-winded process to get the coin back, and I certainly don't want to be out the money and coin.
So how would you reply? I'd like the coin overnighted back so I can get it to its rightful owner; if I sit on the 1/2oz. after refunding him, then that's not a major concern of mine.
Jeremy
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Comments
I have a feeling he is going to try and get you to give him something extra. Don't do it. You made an honest mistake and have offered to fix it. Don't let him take advantage of you.
So he wants 1/4oz + 1/2oz before he ships back to you? Not.
Refund or send the 1/2oz when you get the 1/4oz back.
Did you show him a link to the 1/4 oz auction as evidence that you *had* both up for sale at the same time? Have you contacted the winner of the 1/4 who received/will be receiving a 1/2? Will that buyer be returning the 1/2 ounce coin? If so, maybe you can facilitate the proper exchange of all these pieces and be out little more than two-way shipping and insurance on each. What I would *not* do is send him the 1/2 ounce *or* the refund until you get the 1/4 ouncer back.
I'd consider adding a token gesture as thanks for the patience/honesty, but I wouldn't let the buyer you describe blackmail me into giving away the sun and the moon. With any luck the buyer will threaten to use feedback as a weapon, so if he negs you, you can show the threat to eBay and perhaps get the negative feedback nuked.
<< <i>So he wants 1/4oz + his money before he ships back to you? Not.
So he wants 1/4oz + 1/2oz before he ships back to you? Not.
Refund or send the 1/2oz when you get the 1/4oz back. >>
It's been a long time since i had one of these. did he say the item was not as discribed or what? I would call PayPal to explain it and see what they say.
PayPal holds onto the money until you get your product returned as I remember it.
Sorry, it sounds like one big headache.
Its pretty risky letting him have the refund and the incorrect coin at the same time. He could always claim that you never sent the 1/2 oz (which you didn't) and then claim that the 1/4 ounce was an unsolicited gift! Pretty weak claim but I don;t think you need that headache right now!
I thnk your buyer is being very unreasonable!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>PayPal requires him to return the coin before the refund is given, I thought?
It's been a long time since i had one of these. did he say the item was not as discribed or what? I would call PayPal to explain it and see what they say.
PayPal holds onto the money until you get your product returned as I remember it.
Sorry, it sounds like one big headache.
I do remember there was some situation in which buyers can go through Paypal to claim the mechandise never arrived a get a refund even though they actually did receive it, or in this case the wrong item, and I seem to remember it was if you gave them a positive feedback but this might have changed. Some people want something for nothing.
<< <i>PayPal requires him to return the coin before the refund is given, I thought? >>
In a SNAD dispute, which is what this is, that's correct.
Russ, NCNE
i think the buyer shoulod have just send you a note about the mix-up and everything would have been fine considering your track record.
don't get screwed on this, you made an honest mistake so don;t let a dishonest or "misguided" ebay'r mess with you. he/she may be just out of the loop with ebay poalicies and transactions, yet i would'nt cut them any slack
show him your feedback. show him your other auction.
say the best way to handle this is by giving him options.
send the coin back, and you give him his money back plus the costs of shipping.
send the coin back, and you send him the correct coin.
overnighting the coin is a great gesture and should alleviate him from having
to worry an extended time.
good luck, update us!
You could also refund to what the 1/4 ounce sold for and tell him you'd refund the rest when the coin arrives.
WH
<< <i> I would guess his claim would be rejected since he hasn't returned your item for a refund or exchange, but who knows. >>
When there's a paypal dispute, they let you reply with messages. Now that it's a "claim" (he went from dispute to claim in 3 minutes) I can't write any messages. All I can do in PayPal is give a refund, prove I've sent a refund, or prove the item has been shipped. PayPal also claims that no action within 10 days means the refund is automatically granted (the funds have already been temporarily held).
<< <i>Did you show him a link to the 1/4 oz auction as evidence that you *had* both up for sale at the same time? Have you contacted the winner of the 1/4 who received/will be receiving a 1/2? Will that buyer be returning the 1/2 ounce coin? >>
Luckily I haven't sent the 1/2oz. yet, so it's just sitting around. I'll contact that buyer today, hopefully after I have a better hold on the status of the coin he actually bought. Of course, for the screwup, that buyer will be compensated without having to ask for it.
I can also show him the Registered Mail receipt which has the correct value for what he should have received (and I only send $500+ items via Registered, so if I meant to sent what he got, it would have gone regular First Class.
<< <i>It's been a long time since i had one of these. did he say the item was not as discribed or what? I would call PayPal to explain it and see what they say. >>
Does anyone have a number for PayPal? I could always call eBay, but I don't know how well linked they are on these matters.
<< <i>In a SNAD dispute, which is what this is, that's correct. >>
How can I let PayPal know this?
<< <i> I'd give him my phone number and ask him to call you and work it out. It wouldn't hurt to email him this link too. If I was a buyer and had a real person with a phone number I'd feel better than to just send back some coins. He's in the same boat as you and must figure he may end up with nothing if you empty your paypal account. >>
I just did a "get contact info" request on eBay, and hope to have a free moment this afternoon to call (though I wanted opinions here before going in blind to the situation). Problem is, PayPal's already held the money, and even if they hadn't, I can't render my account dead for life because of this transaction.
<< <i> You could meet him part way (refund $400 difference in value between what he paid for vs. what he got) and let him know the rest would be refunded unpon receipt of the returned coin. >>
I like the idea.
<< <i>Pretty weak claim but I don;t think you need that headache right now! >>
No kidding. Finals are next week.
On a serious note, sorry for the situation you're in. It's happened a few times to us over the past several years on eBay, and fortunately all the parties who received the incorrect coins were understanding and promptly shipped back the wrong item (without demanding the correct item first). They were refunded shipping fees all the way around, and everyone was happy.
Doesn't sound like that will be the case with this person. As has already been suggested by several, just keep it cool but don't let him try to bully you into sending two coins or sending a refund without first getting the wrong coin back. My understanding of the Paypal rules are that they must first return the item to you before they would be eligible for a refund from Paypal. Good luck!
Chris
edited to add: Would you be willing to share this bidder's eBay id? I'd like to block them.
edited again: Saw that someone below provided bidder id. Blocked.
...It shows he has jerky business/social interactions. Every transaction is a conflict with him.
Point out to him that PayPal will require him to return the coin before thay will issue a refund. As long as he keeps the coin, things will stay the way they are. Which is to your favor, value-wise.
You should include in every correspondence with PayPal that the buyer "REFUSES to return the item."
Whatever you do, don't leave any feedback unless you need to retaliate. (Thereby you and he can mutually withdraw feedback.)
2007-W PCGS PR69DCAM PLATINUM EAGLE $25 FIRST STRIKE
2007-W $50 AMERICAN PLATINUM EAGLE UNCIRCULATED 1/2 OZ.
similar thing happened to me last month, but I sent out both coins - both about $90
one receiver jerk, pain in a$$, other understanding
I guess I should get the jerk to cancel his negative now that he got 'his' coin
From the PayPal website:
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4:00 AM PST to 10:00 PM PST Monday through Friday
6:00 AM PST to 8:00 PM PST Saturday and Sunday
For general PayPal account inquiries, please call us toll-free at:
1-888-221-1161.
Just get the guys phone number and call him - don't wait for him to call you. Explain to him the error of your ways, and keep apologizing. Mistakes happen. If he is human, he will understand.
You do have to cover shipping all ways to remedy the problem. You could also give him an extra few bucks off in hopes he won't neg you.
First call was to PayPal. I found out he accidentally gave me the upper hand by filing a non-receipt, not SNAD claim. If he were unreasonable, he would have been paying $700+ for a $350 item, since I can prove that he received a package.
Secondly, I called him. The reason he thought I was playing a game was because I mentioned in an email updating him on shipping that I was delayed a day by a computer outage at my PO, which meant I couldn't ship the day I meant to. Since he's never made a mistake before in shipping, clearly this excuse and the wrong coin combined means I'm out to defraud him. Anyway, I let him know the options from PayPal's point of view, and the coin will be back to me once the weather clears up in Chicago... and then he'll get a refund.
So as they say, it looks like calling really is useful.
Oh, and does anyone want a half ounce of Platinum? It's ready for shipping
<< <i>Well, a little update for the afternoon after making two calls...
First call was to PayPal. I found out he accidentally gave me the upper hand by filing a non-receipt, not SNAD claim. If he were unreasonable, he would have been paying $700+ for a $350 item, since I can prove that he received a package.
Secondly, I called him. The reason he thought I was playing a game was because I mentioned in an email updating him on shipping that I was delayed a day by a computer outage at my PO, which meant I couldn't ship the day I meant to. Since he's never made a mistake before in shipping, clearly this excuse and the wrong coin combined means I'm out to defraud him. Anyway, I let him know the options from PayPal's point of view, and the coin will be back to me once the weather clears up in Chicago... and then he'll get a refund.
So as they say, it looks like calling really is useful.
Oh, and does anyone want a half ounce of Platinum? It's ready for shipping
It's been raining all day. We all went to work, so why can't he make it to the post office!
<< <i>A few years ago, when silver was $6, an ebay bidder won a silver 1oz round for about $7.95 including shipping. Due to a death in the family, and the grief and confusion, we somehow mailed him a 1943 steel cent in a PCGS MS66 slab. I tried to contact him but he had an incorrect email address on file with ebay, and also a fake phone number and lived on NOYFB Street. He got a chargeback from Paypal, kept the coin, called me a lying motherfocker on the phone (with his caller ID blocked) and left negative feedback that I sent out a penny instead of a silver round... >>
What kind of feedback did you leave him?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>A few years ago, when silver was $6, an ebay bidder won a silver 1oz round for about $7.95 including shipping. Due to a death in the family, and the grief and confusion, we somehow mailed him a 1943 steel cent in a PCGS MS66 slab. I tried to contact him but he had an incorrect email address on file with ebay, and also a fake phone number and lived on NOYFB Street. He got a chargeback from Paypal, kept the coin, called me a lying motherfocker on the phone (with his caller ID blocked) and left negative feedback that I sent out a penny instead of a silver round... >>
What kind of feedback did you leave him?
I left him positive before I learned that simply sending the money didn't deserve an automatic positive. Sadly, ebay is thinking of generating an automatic positive feedback to buyers who pay thru paypal....
<< <i>Sadly, ebay is thinking of generating an automatic positive feedback to buyers who pay thru paypal.... >>
Link?
Russ, NCNE
Can't wait for that to happen....Aboncom is gonna sh-t in his pants & so will dozens of notorios Retaliatory Feedback Power Screwers...
<< <i>I sold a 1/2 oz. and 1/4 oz. Platinum last week on eBay, and accidentally sent the 1/4oz. to the buyer of the 1/2oz. Ok, big mistake, I know it. The buyer immediately screamed complaints of fraud, and went straight to a claim (not a dispute) with PayPal.
Anyway, I asked that he send the coin back (at my cost) and I'll either refund him everything plus shipping, or refund the shipping and overnight the 1/2oz. piece to him. His reply is that he'll send the coin he has (worth about $350) back to me when I refund his $750 and change. He has good feedback, but something makes this seem fishy to me that this could be a long-winded process to get the coin back, and I certainly don't want to be out the money and coin.
So how would you reply? I'd like the coin overnighted back so I can get it to its rightful owner; if I sit on the 1/2oz. after refunding him, then that's not a major concern of mine.
Jeremy >>
Does this have any relation to the 2-1/2 hours of sleep you've been getting each night, as you mentioned in another post?
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>Does this have any relation to the 2-1/2 hours of sleep you've been getting each night, as you mentioned in another post? >>
Probably, but it's the first time it's ever happened... and the sleep deprivation is nothing new.
<< <i>So now he does not want the coin he paid for? How come? >>
I have no idea... but I've already resold it, so no sweat off my back, I suppose. Well, no additional sweat, that is.
<< <i>Sadly, ebay is thinking of generating an automatic positive feedback to buyers who pay thru paypal.... >>
You must be joking?
<< <i>
<< <i>Sadly, ebay is thinking of generating an automatic positive feedback to buyers who pay thru paypal.... >>
You must be joking? >>
A few days ago, an idea was posed here to give automatic feedback after X days of the seller not leaving any feedback. Frankcoins just spun this from a question at CU to a consideration being made by eBay...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Sadly, ebay is thinking of generating an automatic positive feedback to buyers who pay thru paypal.... >>
You must be joking? >>
A few days ago, an idea was posed here to give automatic feedback after X days of the seller not leaving any feedback. Frankcoins just spun this from a question at CU to a consideration being made by eBay... >>
Based on the poll being taken as part of that thread, virtually everyone was against automatic feedback.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I called paypal today, they said that i will get 100% refunded on 12-20-07. So after that happens you will just owe me for the return postage on the 1/4 Ounce Proof Platinum. $13 was the price you paid to ship it to me.
I'm NOT returning this until I've been paid!!
And I'm NOT playing games!!
so now we just wait until the 20th.
Brian
Hopefully, they're going to realize (as he doesn't) that a package was received (they now have tracking info) but he just got the wrong thing. If they do as they told me, proof that ANY package was delivered means they side with me... and then the irony would be that he'd have paid 2x the value of the piece, and they wouldn't require me to refund any of it. Since I'm going away soon, any such refund may take a very, very long time to get processed. I'm going to ask the Post Office to do a signature trace on the package tomorrow.
<< <i>Send me 2 copies of the upcoming "Women of MIT" calendar and I'll PM you the right thing to do.
Hold the phone, chum......p
There's some pretty foxy babes at that little technical school (about 44% of undergrads are chicks these days), if my memory is working right and I'm not just having another Steer Roast flashback!
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
If ANYTHING gets shipped back to you, request to open the package in the presence of a postal supervisor. That way you have witnesses as to what was in the package.
I had a case where a seller got hinky on me, wanting to double shipping charges after an auction ended. I refused. He finally agreed to send the merchandise as agreed, but I smelled a rat. I opened the package in front of a supervisor, and sure enough the package was empty and had a note that basically said "[CENSORED] YOU!" The postal supervisor provided me with a signed written statement on USPS letterhead attesting to what the package contents were. I faxxed it to PayPal, and they sided with me even though the seller had proof of delivery.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>Send me 2 copies of the upcoming "Women of MIT" calendar and I'll PM you the right thing to do.
I know a few of them... the calendars are up for grabs (pardon the pun) tomorrow, I think
<< <i>There's some pretty foxy babes at that little technical school (about 44% of undergrads are chicks these days), if my memory is working right and I'm not just having another Steer Roast flashback! >>
More like 48% I think.
<< <i>I should also add that I'm ready to take a neg on this transaction. But, I also think, at the very least, I can drag this out for at least a month if need be... I'm feeling like this could be fun... at least if I weren't trying to study for finals right now.
<< <i>Send me 2 copies of the upcoming "Women of MIT" calendar and I'll PM you the right thing to do.
I know a few of them... the calendars are up for grabs (pardon the pun) tomorrow, I think
<< <i>There's some pretty foxy babes at that little technical school (about 44% of undergrads are chicks these days), if my memory is working right and I'm not just having another Steer Roast flashback! >>
More like 48% I think. >>
Others may disagree but my thoughts are that it is immature to "drag this out". The person is not being reasonable but also doesn't know you personally. There are a lot of crappy sellers with 100% feedback and maybe they know that as well. I would say (and I would do) to just take the high road. Maybe don't go out of your way (though, it was your initial error that caused things to happen) to jump at their whim, but if you have the opportunity to close on the issue (ie..you get the coin back and still have their money), then do so and don't try to get all punitive on them, no matter how fun it would be.
While, from a schoolyard perspective, which is how I often feel this board acts, dragging it out would be funny and deserved, I don't think it is the mature, business, response. Just mho.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Others may disagree but my thoughts are that it is immature to "drag this out". The person is not being reasonable but also doesn't know you personally. There are a lot of crappy sellers with 100% feedback and maybe they know that as well. I would say (and I would do) to just take the high road. Maybe don't go out of your way (though, it was your initial error that caused things to happen) to jump at their whim, but if you have the opportunity to close on the issue (ie..you get the coin back and still have their money), then do so and don't try to get all punitive on them, no matter how fun it would be.
While, from a schoolyard perspective, which is how I often feel this board acts, dragging it out would be funny and deserved, I don't think it is the mature, business, response. Just mho. >>
Oh, I agree. If I were in town, I would just do this as time allowed and not rush. However, I'm going to be out of town for 40 days with limited computer access, and my PO knows to hold all of my mail (including what would normally be sent back after X days) until I return. If I don't receive anything back before I go, there's no proof of a returned item until the last few days of January. The fact is, even if it becomes a SNAD claim, PayPal won't refund his money automatically until there's proof of delivery, and that won't be for quite some time.
I’ll side with the buyer.
I would expect you to give me a total refund (including 2 way shipping) before I sent it back to you.
You worry about him having the coin, your money and getting an empty box return.
You had his money, the coin and he could have gotten an empty box from you.
How is it any different and why should he have confidence in your promise to refund him all his costs considering your ability to even send him what he paid for?
In considering your performance (sending me a coin of ½ the value you were obligated to supply) I know I have doubts of your ability to perform and would want to be sure of a full refund before making the return.
Very sloppy business on your part and you doubt his honesty. You are the party that f’ed-up the deal and bear the burden of responsibility to make things right but would rather get engage in a pissing contest with your buyer.
Man up and do the right thing.
You can do that online from home. Just put in the Signature Confirmation number and you can have it emailed or faxed to you. Just takes a couple of minutes.
WH
<< <i>Anyway, I asked that he send the coin back (at my cost) and I'll either refund him everything plus shipping, or refund the shipping and overnight the 1/2oz. piece to him. His reply is that he'll send the coin he has (worth about $350) back to me when I refund his $750 and change. He has good feedback, but something makes this seem fishy to me that this could be a long-winded process to get the coin back, and I certainly don't want to be out the money and coin.
I’ll side with the buyer.
I would expect you to give me a total refund (including 2 way shipping) before I sent it back to you.
You worry about him having the coin, your money and getting an empty box return.
You had his money, the coin and he could have gotten an empty box from you.
How is it any different and why should he have confidence in your promise to refund him all his costs considering your ability to even send him what he paid for?
In considering your performance (sending me a coin of ½ the value you were obligated to supply) I know I have doubts of your ability to perform and would want to be sure of a full refund before making the return.
Very sloppy business on your part and you doubt his honesty. You are the party that f’ed-up the deal and bear the burden of responsibility to make things right but would rather get engage in a pissing contest with your buyer.
Man up and do the right thing. >>
He doesn't have the money. Paypal does. One of their big claims is to handle problems. They will not give Jeremy his money unless the buyer is happy, and in this case, will not give the buyer his refund unless he returns the item. That is what the "middle man" is there for.
At this time, the whole thing resides in Paypal's court.
PP may hold the funds but won't release them till J. has proof of receipt of package.
as far as the buyer holding the merchandise till a refund +sh....BS!!!!
Had this happen to me once and I sent the buyer a package that contained a box, packing material, and a pre-printed Priority mail slip and gave $5 for gas and time to the PO. Once I received the package, contacted PP and had them release the refund.
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
The buyer should be refunded the shipping both ways. Then why the pissing contest and limited internet access for 40 days routine?
<< <i>This whole matter is about the$13 shipping charge?
The buyer should be refunded the shipping both ways. Then why the pissing contest and limited internet access for 40 days routine? >>
No, PayPal's holding the full cost of the item right now (as in it's been taken from me and not given to the buyer). The buyer refuses to send the coin back until the money is refunded to him. Since he went through the paypal justice system, I'm going to play his game. The problem for him is that I'm pretty sure I have the evidence to win. I told him I'd pay the shipping cost now, but he refuses to send the coin back until he gets every cent back, and I'm not doing that.
Mind you, PayPal's policy is that he send the piece back to me first. In addition, they don't even require shipping to be refunded. If he had shipped this yesterday like promised, the whole ordeal would be over this morning. The limited internet access is no random excuse. I will be out of the country and I don't plan to check email every day. Ever once in a while I'll go to an internet cafe, but I don't plan to check my email daily just to take care of this.