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A coin's grade should be determined by its weakest side.

291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,463 ✭✭✭✭✭
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  • gecko109gecko109 Posts: 8,231 ✭
    Usually is.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A coin's grade should be determined by its weakest side...

    When buying? I suppose, if you can get away with it.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭
    I think it's usually determined by the front.
    Coin Rarities Online
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,150 ✭✭✭✭✭
    More like by its worst side. It can be weakly struck and mark free on one side and well struck and really baggy on the other.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • capecape Posts: 1,621 ✭
    In my mind, the obverse carries 60% of the grade.
    ed rodrigues
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i think it is. the obverse is almost universally looked at first and as someone wiser than me said, the reverse won't necessarily make the grade higher but it'll surely make it lower.
  • gecko109gecko109 Posts: 8,231 ✭
    Some series of coins, Barber quarters and halves in particular, almost always have nicer reverses. Is this due to the design, or is there another reason? I have noticed this on many other coins as well.
  • tjkilliantjkillian Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭
    The strongest side should determine grade, not the weakest. Coins generally wear evenly and if one side is weaker than the other, it is assumed that the weaker side was weakly struck.

    Tom

  • TbarTbar Posts: 521
    when grading Peace $ I find myself putting more weight on the reverse of the coin when determining a grade.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When you are buying... price is determined by the strongest side, selling a coin... price is determined by the weakest side... Grading.. well, that is an opinion and subject to variability. Cheers, RickO
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    Some interesting points of view presented here, but let me pose a hypothetical. Suppose we had two coins, identical in all respects except that one coin graded VF on both sides, and the other graded VF on one side and EF on the other. Would not the coin with the EF side warrant a higher overall grade than the VF? If your hypothesis is true, and the coin's grade were determined by the weakest side, it would not. But I submit that most collectors would deem the latter coin to be a 'higher' grade, and therefore worth a premium. Therefore, the grade is determined by the stronger side. Or said another way, the grade is increased by the stronger side and decreased by the weaker side over a coin that grades the same on both sides.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Barber quarters and halves in particular, almost always have nicer reverses >>



    I don't think that's true. Barber coins are notorious for having nearly smooth reverses while maintaining at least some of the obverse.

    But to answer your original question: you can't grade a coin purely by it's weakest side. That doesn't take the positive side into account, obviously. And, just as obviously, you can't grade it by it's best side as that would ignore the weaker side. I would agree that the obverse makes 55-60% of the grade as it's the "money" side of the coin, but both sides of the coin need to be taken into account for a proper grade.

    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Both sides should be considered. I would weigh the grade 60% obverse/40% reverse and, admittedly, typically spend 75+% of my time viewing the obverse and the rest on the reverse. This may vary to some degree depending on the series.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I once saw an 1873 trade dollar in a PCGS holder with an MS68 obverse and an MS60 reverse. What do you suppose the grade was?
    Early Dollar Set
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,473 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A coin's grade should be determined by its weakest side.



    << <i>Comment... >>




    Question? Why is the coin being graded at all? Who would want it? It's a misnomer! Are we talking about the strike or the overall quality? Either way, unless the coin is widely known for such lower conditions and does not exist in a higher state of preservation,....................... On a side note, it's amazing what makes up 99% of what's been certified, all because someone paid and wanted it certified? image


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since split grades are seldom used anymore, grading is a composite that considers both sides, with the final grade a compromise between both sides, the obverse carries more weight. Many examples of this with bust coins, depending on the initial strike, a coin may wear faster on one side. This is just one opinion, of course, as there is no grading police to enforce any type of grading consistency. Oops! except for CACimage
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Obverse gets more attention to grading than reverse.

    Most of the collectors I talk to feel this way also.

    It's my experience and my opinion that Canada's top grading service ICCS, puts more importance on the obverse of the coin.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some interesting points of view presented here, but let me pose a hypothetical. Suppose we had two coins, identical in all respects except that one coin graded VF on both sides, and the other graded VF on one side and EF on the other. Would not the coin with the EF side warrant a higher overall grade than the VF? If your hypothesis is true, and the coin's grade were determined by the weakest side, it would not. But I submit that most collectors would deem the latter coin to be a 'higher' grade, and therefore worth a premium. Therefore, the grade is determined by the stronger side. Or said another way, the grade is increased by the stronger side and decreased by the weaker side over a coin that grades the same on both sides

    Perhaps in a perfect world, the grade should be an average of both sides. Example above, the first coin would grade VF20 and the second coin would grade VF30 (average of obverse VF20 and reverse XF40). But in reality, most times we look at the obverse more.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • quickwingquickwing Posts: 1,155


    << <i>The strongest side should determine grade, not the weakest. Coins generally wear evenly and if one side is weaker than the other, it is assumed that the weaker side was weakly struck. >>



    tj this would not take into account coins worn as jewelry. I have several where the grade is considerable lower on the reverse. The coins should always be graded on the weakest side. The grader should have the know how and experience to determine weak strikes and take that into consideration. Not all graded coins reflect this however.
    OLDER IS BETTER
  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭✭
    Where does the rim/edge play into any of this?
    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • dizzyfoxxdizzyfoxx Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I once saw an 1873 trade dollar in a PCGS holder with an MS68 obverse and an MS60 reverse. What do you suppose the grade was? >>



    66
    image...There's always time for coin collecting. image
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I once saw an 1873 trade dollar in a PCGS holder with an MS68 obverse and an MS60 reverse. What do you suppose the grade was?

    It depends. If the reverse was clean but dark and borderline "ED", then I would guess 63. If the reverse was heavily bagmarked, I'd guess 62.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Both sides should be considered. I would weigh the grade 60% obverse/40% reverse and, admittedly, typically spend 75+% of my time viewing the obverse and the rest on the reverse. This may vary to some degree depending on the series. >>


    I agree with RYK.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It depends. If the reverse was clean but dark and borderline "ED"

    The reverse looked the same as the obverse [white & flashy], but had a large cut above the eagle's head. Borderline 'body bag for damage' size of cut.
    Early Dollar Set
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I once saw an 1873 trade dollar in a PCGS holder with an MS68 obverse and an MS60 reverse. What do you suppose the grade was? >>


    65
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> Coins generally wear evenly >>


    With bust coins, there can be differences in obverse and reverse rims, resulting in uneven wear. Also, one die may be slightly sunk, or not as convex from basining as the other side. Some die marriages have details on one side that wear off at a faster rate, such as 1795 O.129, 130, and 131, where the reverse wears flat, while the obverse can have VF detail, I have seen PCGS give some of these a grade of VF with very little wing detail left, the reverse on its own would be VG.
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It depends. If the reverse was clean but dark and borderline "ED"

    The reverse looked the same as the obverse [white & flashy], but had a large cut above the eagle's head. Borderline 'body bag for damage' size of cut. >>


    Ahh...in that case, I change my answer to 62.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nope to all - it was graded MS64. One of the strangest holdered coins I had ever seen... the net grade bore no relation to either the obverse or the reverse.
    Early Dollar Set
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,798 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Nope to all - it was graded MS64. One of the strangest holdered coins I had ever seen... the net grade bore no relation to either the obverse or the reverse. >>



    I guessed 62. What grade did the coin sell for? In this example (and many others), it might be more telling than the grade on the holder.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dunno. I rejected it as damaged.
    Early Dollar Set
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,310 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The obverse drives the coin, regardless how nice the reverse is.
    The reverse can bump up or bump down the overall grade based on a liner obverse. It's interesting that that trade dollar graded anything higher than say 62-63 with such a prominent mark.
    I once held an 1890 25c graded MS68 with a huge dig in the right obv field. If that dig was not considered the coin was a solid 68.
    But with the dig, I couldn't figure out how it got graded higher than 65-66. It did have phenominal eye appeal and color however it shouldn't have negated an ice pick type dig in the field.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • jdillanejdillane Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭
    I agree with those who opine the obv carries 60% of the grade weight. I was not collecting when split grading was more common. I think that grading each side makes sense particularly with the early stuff.
  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭


    << <i>this would not take into account coins worn as jewelry. >>


    Coins worn as jewelry only get one grade: "ex-jewelry." There's rarely a need to go beyond that.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • partagaspartagas Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭
    In regards to the Trade dollar. I would say the obverse has the largest affect on a coins grade. First impressions are made by viewing the obverse. I would much rather own a trade dollar with a 68 obv and a cut on the reverse the vice versa
    If I say something in the woods, and my wife isn't around. Am I still wrong?
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,443 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The reverse can hurt a coins overall grade but it rarely can help it.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • quickwingquickwing Posts: 1,155
    Something to grade. I know the photos sux but I hope they are clear enough to see the tale of two sides. What say you?

    imageimage

    I've got these two sides 15 points apart. I know there are better eyes out there than mine though.
    OLDER IS BETTER
  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Something to grade. I know the photos sux but I hope they are clear enough to see the tale of two sides. What say you? >>



    Both sides look 40 to me.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    looks fake to me.
    Early Dollar Set
  • quickwingquickwing Posts: 1,155
    Full dentiles TDN. Poor pic.
    OLDER IS BETTER

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