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Not a good start for the PQ "sticker".

ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,758 ✭✭✭✭
And yes, they're the same coin (see the Heritage link below). image

MS63 at Heritage sale.


image




MS64 at Albanese with a sticker for "PQ".


image


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Comments

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,578 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks to be a money raket in the making
  • dizzyfoxxdizzyfoxx Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭
    The sticker is what it is, a sticker. But it is a pretty shade of green.image
    image...There's always time for coin collecting. image
  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like smoeone lightened it up with MS-70, and it left some spots!

    And they still got an upgrade and a CAC blessing! image
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,490 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm sorry, but I just have not been able to digest this CACA cr*p.
    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,578 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The first and only CAC coin I have seen in hand sucked!!,

    jim
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This only shows that the TPG grading is variable.

    Cac can only sticker the holder the coin resides in. If the coin were undergraded as a 63, it could still be solid as a 64 and get stickers in both cases. In fact I had a gem 1882 seated half that NGC botched the first time in and graded MS65. The second time in they botched in again, grading it MS67. While it may have not been worthy of a CAC sticker in 67, it would have been in grades 65 and 66. CAC can't do anything about old holders either than become upgrades. CAC can only grade the coin as holdered. When a true dog finally shows up in a CAC holder, that will be news. Personally I don't think it will happend any time soon.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
    Now we need another company to sticker the CAC sticker.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So much for sticker credibility.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To be fair, both pictures really are terrible. I wouldn't make a judgment call on the coin until I saw it in hand or a picture that I considered half decent...
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • I read, in CW I think, that at the first show CAC attended, they stickered over 80% of the coins submitted.
    And interestingly, they will be making a market in CACed coins. Sounds like a big fat money making scam
    to me.
    Has anyone determined yet what the average premium is for a CACed coin? Or is it too early to tell.
  • Nice work, Shamika.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image


  • << <i>So much for sticker credibility. >>



    WHat makes you say that? Just because a coin was upgraded doesn't mean it's misgraded in it's current holder. It's very possible that it belongs in a 64 holder, and is solid for the grade.
  • So ?? Maybe the coin is solid for the 64 grade. All that proves is that the coin was undergraded the first time around. The sticker just means that CAC agrees with PCGS now. So where is the problem in that?


  • << <i>I read, in CW I think, that at the first show CAC attended, they stickered over 80% of the coins submitted.
    And interestingly, they will be making a market in CACed coins. Sounds like a big fat money making scam
    to me.
    Has anyone determined yet what the average premium is for a CACed coin? Or is it too early to tell. >>



    If someone told me they would give me a free assessment at a show....I wouldn't bring 20 dogs....I would bring my 20 best so it's no suprise so many stickers were handed out then image
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The debate now enters it's second stage.... bring on the popcorn. Cheers, RickO
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,901 ✭✭✭✭
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  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,758 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If the coin were undergraded as a 63, it could still be solid as a 64 and get stickers in both cases. >>

    Unfortunately, the coin is barely a 63 in my opinion. When this same coin showed up in a 64 slab some months ago (on eBay), I was shocked. And now it gets "the sticker"???



    << <i>Looks like smoeone lightened it up with MS-70, and it left some spots! >>

    No MS-70 has been used. The coin looks exactly the same as it did in the 63 slab. Look at the close-up images from the Heritage sale.




    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I number myself with those who don't fully understand the need for this CAC thing, but I wish 'em well. Gotta say their little hologram sticker is cute. Classier than I expected.

    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • It probably got the sticker because all those specks and spots are a testament to the originality. image
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,271 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shamika - good work. Yep, solid for the grade, whatever that might mean. I can't say it too many times - conflict of interest. Collectors will lose on the front end, every time.

    When you have the same dealers making a market in the same coins over and over, while dictating the grading structure at the same time, just what do you suppose will happen to the pricing structure?

    TPGs were justified by the proposition that they would take away all of the uncertainty in the market and would promote sight-unseen (oxymoron) trading. It didn't work the first time; why would anyone expect it to work now, especially with another subjective variable thrown into the equation? pffft.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • This whole CAC sticker craziness really rubs me the wrong way. Maybe we should have stickers to sticker the stickers on our slabs.
  • DieClashDieClash Posts: 3,688 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The debate now enters it's second stage.... bring on the popcorn. Cheers, RickO >>



    image
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  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,603 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's a better picture of the obverse from Heritage's site that I feel not only shows the coin in the most accurate light of the three pictures, but also shows that some defects have been hidden, intentionally or accidentally, from the CACked coin. Someone will be rather disappointed in the coin received from Albanese if they go only by his picture.

    image
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,758 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The sticker just means that CAC agrees with PCGS now. So where is the problem in that? >>

    Let's put aside whether or not the coin should have been upgraded. According to Albernese, this coin is "CAC stickered for premium quality". So the coin is more than solid for the grade, it's now a shot 65???


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  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,077 ✭✭✭
    I thought the sticker meant solid for the grade, not PQ. image

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,758 ✭✭✭✭
    I'll also add that this coin has been kicked around in several inventories for quite some time if that means anything.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm sure there will be many such posts in the future.

    The solution is simple - sell it to the CAC market-makers and watch it show up in the next aucion without the sticker. I'm sure they'll buy in all their mistakes, as well as all the others they sticker. This is the good thing about this program, IMO. They are labeling the coins they want. Sell it to them.

    TPG's are distant from the market. They are not market-makers, by design. This sticker thing IS a market-making scheme. So use it to your advantage. Don't whine about it.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,760 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'll also add that this coin has been kicked around in several inventories for quite some time if that means anything. >>



    I think that means it hasn't found a happy home, yet. Coins get to be like ping pong balls. Back and forth over the net. A paddle here,image
    a paddle there. image
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,578 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am not an expert in Buff's, but I venture to say based on the photo, its not a coin Id expect to see a CAC sticker on.
    The gold piece I saw earlier this week, may have been technically a 63, but it was a turd!


  • << <i>I thought the sticker meant solid for the grade, not PQ. image

    -Paul >>



    That is my understanding as well.......he's a little more of my two cents for those that care to read on....

    I have no agenda and especially have no affiliation with CAC since I am an extremely small fish as a collector and a non existant fish as far as a coin dealer but......

    I looked at the images objectively.....I think looked at every other MS63 1924-S in the Heritage Archive.....and in my opnion it is clear that this is the best of the lot especially considering the reverse strike. I don't believe for one second it's a borderline MS62/63 as Shamika eluded too and I have never had a beef with him and still don't. I also don't know that he has an agenda against CAC...I tend to think he doesn't......

    All I know is that as far as luster, strike, Marks etc for this date and MM......I think the coin deserved an upgrade. If folks have PQ 62's that look like that coin I am a buyer.....let's not let the CAC cloud the discussion......you either believe the coin is a 64 or you don't.......PCGS thought it was the second time around and CAC agreed it was at least a Solid MS64........period.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,758 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't believe for one second it's a borderline MS62/63 as Shamika eluded too and I have never had a beef with him and still don't. I also don't know that he has an agenda against CAC...I tend to think he doesn't...... >>


    Daniel - I've been an avid Buffalo nickel collector for 20+ years and I would never consider this coin anything more than a 63. In fact, when it first showed up at Long Beach back in 2005, I passed on it even though I was looking to upgrade to a nice 63 or 64. And I'm not anti-CAC or Albanese. CAC is a reasonable idea in my opinion and Albanese is a solid dealer.

    And don't consider this a "beef" between us. You're still an okay guy in my book. image


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!


  • << <i>

    << <i>I don't believe for one second it's a borderline MS62/63 as Shamika eluded too and I have never had a beef with him and still don't. I also don't know that he has an agenda against CAC...I tend to think he doesn't...... >>


    Daniel - I've been an avid Buffalo nickel collector for 20+ years and I would never consider this coin anything more than a 63. In fact, when it first showed up at Long Beach back in 2005, I passed on it even though I was looking to upgrade to a nice 63 or 64. And I'm not anti-CAC or Albanese. CAC is a reasonable idea in my opinion and Albanese is a solid dealer.

    And don't consider this a "beef" between us. You're still an okay guy in my book. image >>




    Fair enough....in that case you can still call me Shane image
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,758 ✭✭✭✭

    AKA Shane

    image

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it just me, or does the CAC sticker look photoshopped on there?
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • jomjom Posts: 3,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK, so who is grading the "graders"? For that matter who grades the graders who grade the graders? image

    jom
  • Nice spots.
    Brandon Kelley - ANA - 972.746.9193 - http://www.bestofyesterdaycollectibles.com


  • << <i>TPG's are distant from the market. They are not market-makers, by design. This sticker thing IS a market-making scheme. So use it to your advantage. Don't whine about it. >>

    Now where's the fun in that? image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,139 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I still say that grading buffalo nickels is like throwing darts. We know that PCGS got the grade wrong at least once - other than that, no solid conclusions can be drawn from images.


  • << <i>

    << <i>If the coin were undergraded as a 63, it could still be solid as a 64 and get stickers in both cases. >>

    Unfortunately, the coin is barely a 63 in my opinion. When this same coin showed up in a 64 slab some months ago (on eBay), I was shocked. And now it gets "the sticker"???



    << <i>Looks like smoeone lightened it up with MS-70, and it left some spots! >>

    No MS-70 has been used. The coin looks exactly the same as it did in the 63 slab. Look at the close-up images from the Heritage sale. >>



    Unfortunately, I'm going to trust the professionals that evaluated the coin in hand over your opinion based on a photo. Not that the professionals are always right, but in this case I think they are.


  • << <i>Now we need another company to sticker the CAC sticker. >>

    image
    This is the last time I will ever do this again
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like smoeone lightened it up with MS-70, and it left some spots!

    No, it look like someone took a leak on the coin and let it dry. I've seen a number of 24 S Buff in varying grades; I've yet to find one that I considered to be attractive for whatever grade it was assigned.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,758 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Unfortunately, I'm going to trust the professionals that evaluated the coin in hand over your opinion based on a photo. Not that the professionals are always right, but in this case I think they are. >>

    Are you saying the "professionals" are right in that the coin is a 63 or that they're right in that it's a 64? image

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!


  • << <i>Looks to be a money racket in the making >>



    Was there ever any doubt in the first place?
    "Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
    John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭
    For Five Thousand bucks those spots would kinda bug me!

    Whatever!!!!
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    Nice spots.

    Yea, verily...
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
  • direwolf1972direwolf1972 Posts: 2,076 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Now we need another company to sticker the CAC sticker. >>



    I say we go back about a hundred years and chop mark our PCGS, NGC, etc... slabs lightly but other higher authorities that "know better" than the original grading company.

    At least chop marks are more pleasing to the eye than those stickers.... plus hard to remove or add a chop mark since they are a little more intricate.

    Take that back... then we'd get all our "approved" items from china.

    Maybe not such a good idea. But just a thought late at night.
    I'll see your bunny with a pancake on his head and raise you a Siamese cat with a miniature pumpkin on his head.

    You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.


  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    stickers are stupid. that's all you need to know

    K S
  • I think the CAC stickered coins have a market for collectors who haven't the foggiest notion of what a PQ coin is. Obviously, the majority of folks who brought their coins to be stickered at Coinfest know quality, and hence the 80% success ratio with getting the CAC sticker on their coin. Granted, the service was being offered free to these people at Coinfest, but if it weren't, would it really be necessary for these same people to pay a fee to have these coins CAC stickered. Probably not, they already have a good idea of what PQ is, within a given grade. I don't think that it's necessary to have to pay someone to verify what you already know.


  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,968 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Looks like smoeone lightened it up with MS-70, and it left some spots!

    No, it look like someone took a leak on the coin and let it dry. I've seen a number of 24 S Buff in varying grades; I've yet to find one that I considered to be attractive for whatever grade it was assigned. >>



    Actually it looks like smoeone squeezed one nickel till the buffalo chit and smoe of it hit THAT nickel.

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