The U.S. Government is going to pull all retail food sales under their wing. And then they will be excepting Gold only for food purchases and Silver for beverages.
The only thing that will be conficated will be spotted Silver Eagles.
Wouldn't argue that a bit. I do have a fundamental problem with the federal cash transaction reporting requirement. It is as bad as criminal potential profiling and electronic wiretap and data warehousing without clear evidence of criminal activity. Is it right to pull over a black guy in tattered clothes because he is driving a Mercedes convertible and that doesn't seem quite right? Why should it be right for the government to track personal cash transactions without separate reasonable suspicion of criminal activity? Yes, havong more information makes catching the bad guys easier. That doesn't make it right with my yard stick. The FBI had been trying for decades to get increasingly lax policies for them to monitor the citizenry and were turned down repeatedly until the PA. Now if one questions the policy and argues against increasing surveillance powers, he gets the rhetorical, "What do you care unless you've got something to hide?" Well, I for one have plenty to hide even if it makes no difference if someone knows it. It is just a matter of what is MY business and what is THEIR business. My requirements are to obey the letter and spirit of the laws and pay my fair share of taxes to the government. That's it; nada mas. Unless I fail to carry out my responsibility and/or they have good reason to believe I have failed to do so, I owe them nothing more.
<< <i>Thank goodness W would never lie to us.... right? >>
No more than the other dozen lies he's told. >>
In all fairness, poliicians are nearly categorically liars, administration to administration across party lines. Perhaps ther eis a difference in the case of the Great Communicator and now the Great Cheerleader....they are probably almost all someone else's crafted lies.
lots of good stuff to laught at byt does anyone know the truth about this?
From what I understand if you own coins worth double melt you are ok so $20 common Libs are no good but $20 CC libs are fine, $3 gold coins are fine but American eagles are not.
I seldom check PM's but do check emails often jason@seated.org
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
They don't like people being able to hide their wealth or transport it easily. That's why they don't print higher that $100 bill now. Tht's plain silly considering inflation. Equally silly is the $10K cash transaction reporting requirement. Should raise it to $100K if it can be justified at all. But the folks who get this information are never going to want to reduce their access to information.
Strange, we talked about the PA2 clauses in depth back in the fall before they went into effect. If you want the skinny go read the bill. It is linked to the forum if you search under "Patriot Act 2."
The basics.
Yes, it is for money laundering. Sort of an extension of what the IRS already does for $10,000 cash transactions. The bill is not well-written and I believe some of the interpretations by IRS/HS agents may not be 100% correct. A course was given to coin dealers last year and for only $800 or so, an ex-IRS agent would draw you up a plan to cover your a$$. Just another tax.
The threshold to be included in PA2 requirements is $50,000. It applies to sellers and BUYERS as well. Collectors too. If you sell and/or purchase (the sum of those) $50k a year in "bullionesque/collectibles valued like bullion" items, then you must adhere to the rules of PA2. Collectibles worth < than 2X the value of the intrinsic metal are coverable under PA2. Right now that would include MS65 Saints! It would not however include MS66 or 67 Saints. If you are buying jewelry at <2X intrinsic value that is coverable. There is a special exemption in there for jewelers who buy only from wholesalers and sell only to the public. Those rules include having a written plan in place. Self audits. Annual training of employees, etc. As a seller you must know who your buyer is. If you are doing due diligence per PA2 and sell to money launders, drug traffickers, terrorists, etc then you are in for trouble. It's all about DD and documenting your a$$. If you don't sell or purchase $50K per year, it doesn't apply. If you fail to comply I believe the fines run to $250K...and I don't recall if jail time is part of that too. They apparently don't differentiate between cash or check. If you buy $50K by check, you have reached the threshold. If you only transact $49K per year, every year, you are exempt.
The bill is aimed at the big boys who deal in bullion....like your Heritages, Silvertown, Rarcoa, NGE, Gainsville. etc. But it equally applies to your local B&M shops if they sell or buy $50k per year. And for any active shop, they certainly exceed that number.
I've not heard anything about audits in our industry to date and figure most of the PA2 cries we heard a year ago have gone away. But at some point in time when B&M shops are making zillions, watch a few audits fly.
rr, I think there also is a definition as to who qualifies as a dealer per the PA. The ones who are covered by the act are largely those who know already anyway. They wouldn't be ignorant of their responsibilities. In that way, it differs sharply form the $10K form 8300 reporting requirement. Any old person could get nailed for failure to file the form out of ignorance. Suppose I buy 3 platinum sets form the Mint at about $3,200 each. Platinum goes up and I find someone to flip them to for $12,000. If he pays me in cash, I have an 8300 to submit. As a John Q. Public, I might never have heard of it and just figured "all debts, public or private" on the crisp $100 bills was the margin of my concerns.
All this stuff has been going around for years.Why complain about it now..?? You think the drug cartels issue their own currency saying ..I owe you 100 Kilos of crack cocaine..or mary jane..!!!They use hard cash...Good old $100 Dollar Bills. So if they gotta move a lot of cash ..well ...to bad.!!!It takes up a lot of space...
I didn't read anywhere in the bill as to what qualifies one as a dealer. Nor do I think HSO cares. They just want to keep tabs on those doing $50K per year. If you are an investor or collector I don't think that matters as you are essentially doing the same thing a dealer is doing.....buying and selling PM's or items essentially worth the same as PM's. Can't investors and collectors launder money as well as dealers? This also makes the money launderer a criminal since he's not filing under PA2 with his cash to bullion transactions. Hence he can be arrested under something with more teeth than the > $10,000 IRS cash statute. You don't have to find him with the drugs, just the fact that he didn't abide by the >$50K PA2 regs.
By getting in the idea that anything worth < 2X its intrinsic value is considered "bullion" I think they may have opened up the door to the IRS for example to use that number as well. Just a thought of what worst case could be. There is nothing written in law about the so-called "15%" rule that the IRS (and accountants) typically apply to determine what's bullion and what's a "rare coin." But with PA2 putting <2X (or <+100%) in print, another door has been opened.
...don't forget to buy your 2008 75th Anniversary of Wiretapping commemorative: it's not a secret; it's a patriotic act of unwarranted statute. Your (Big) Brotha's at NSA will love ya'.
Where is Dan Quayle when we need to spell potato/potatoe...ummm...or is that "stent"?
<< <i>"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
Some of the provisions of the Patriot Act were scheduled to sunset afte 4 years, but these were all part of the original act. Interesting that a variety of different Liberal AND conservative groups and now the majority of the general public have finally seen the light.
Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.
* Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.
* Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.
* Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
* Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.
* Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
* Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. >>
Hey BobbaFett, hope you have a good laugh....I know I did(Pharmer too!)
the double bullion comment refers to what items must be considered "bullion" under the Patriot Act
as far as I know, dealers must report all sales in excess of a certain dollar amt, and ALL sales once they (the dealer) passes 50K of TOTAL bullion sales
I just think it is this proactive investigative nonsense that is wrong. If the Nazis had complete records of who crossing the border out of Germany had bought a good number of internally flawless diamonds, they would have been confiscating wealth unjustly. Our founding fathers worried a good deal of the possibility of a future tyrranical government and put safeguards against their power where they could consider. I don't think they would see it much of the federal government's business who moves what wealth where as long as any taxes are appropriately assessed and paid (and some of them would have heartburn on the tax thing too). Knowingly laundering money complicates one in criminal activity. Selling bullion, coins, ... or moving cash around is not in itself criminal and criminalizing the failure to document that for the government was wrong. Again, I'd like them to catch all the bad guys. But there is a baby in the bath water. Law enforcement is tough. Investigations are tough. Evidence is limited. But nobody said it had to be easier or that we all needed to file papers of suspicion to hel out the cause.
"Happiness is believing that you're so important that your government is always out to get you, and that everything it does is about you" - Garbbonz O'Bean
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Jerry, avoiding problems re cash transacations of $10,000 or over is not difficult. This is a hoop we've had to jump through for quite sometime, now. Reporting them properly is quite simple. See form 8300 and its instructions.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>If it wishes to, the Government can confiscate
all you own, including your very soul. >>
How very true Bear.
Well, I was kind of wondering why Halliburton was awarded the 385 million dollar contract to build multiple 'detention' centers (or internment camps) in the U.S....... now it is making sense.
As soon as they strip the gold from you, they will herd you into one...... !
(BTW, it is true that a Halliburton subsidiary does have that contract....... )
Well, I was kind of wondering why Halliburton was awarded the 385 million dollar contract to build multiple 'detention' centers (or internment camps) in the U.S....... now it is making sense. >>
Actually, they're just going to buy those FEMA trailers and rent them to undocumented workers while their paperwork is being processed so they can get bennies from the Democratic congress.
Streeter wrote: "he related to me that he had thought about my remarks from time to time and made a comment along the lines that "something needed to be done in the country because things were out of control." "the only people who can do it are people who are squeaky clean and older and have no fear of losing everything."
As someone who has been politically active in a state located in the Mid Atlantic, for thirty years, all I can say is that your father was right. I have come to the conclusion, that, this country has to be run by someone who has lots of his own money, is squeaky clean, and, has no fear of loosing anything. I am sorry to add that I doubt that person exist.
PA2 doesn't one require to do anything until they pass the $50k threshold. At that point, they need to be in compliance with PA2. And that only means having an approved anti-money laundering plan and enforcing it with documentation. It indicates it's all based on common sense and reasonable "citizen" type standards. But to me it smacks more of tracking who has the precious metals.
<< <i>Streeter wrote: "he related to me that he had thought about my remarks from time to time and made a comment along the lines that "something needed to be done in the country because things were out of control." "the only people who can do it are people who are squeaky clean and older and have no fear of losing everything."
As someone who has been politically active in a state located in the Mid Atlantic, for thirty years, all I can say is that your father was right. I have come to the conclusion, that, this country has to be run by someone who has lots of his own money, is squeaky clean, and, has no fear of loosing anything. I am sorry to add that I doubt that person exist. >>
I sure as heck hope noone alters our Constitution to put that self-absorbed moron who's running our state in the oval office.
<< <i>Yes, where bright shiney new euro coins now costs me $1.486
A lunch out for the family runs $75--a simple lunch like pizza and water (tap water at that 2 euro for a half liter, but it was potable and only 2 of 5 family members were sickened by it!)
Dinner for the family is an easy $200, thus we don't go out to dinner. >>
<< <i>Jerry, avoiding problems re cash transacations of $10,000 or over is not difficult. This is a hoop we've had to jump through for quite sometime, now. Reporting them properly is quite simple. See form 8300 and its instructions. >>
Yea but I've never had to worry about that since it has always been easier to just ask for a different form of payment. --Jerry
Comments
<< <i>
No, that's not even close to right. >>
Wheeew.....!!!....
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The U.S. Government is going to pull all retail food sales under
their wing. And then they will be excepting Gold only for food
purchases and Silver for beverages.
The only thing that will be conficated will be spotted Silver Eagles.
Jerry
all you own, including your very soul.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>Losing our freedoms, one at a time. >>
Yes, list the ones you've lost. >>
your right to arm bears
Menomonee Falls Wisconsin USA
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistr...dset.aspx?s=68269&ac=1">Musky 1861 Mint Set
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
<< <i>
<< <i>Losing our freedoms, one at a time. >>
If you consider money laundering a freedom. >>
Wouldn't argue that a bit. I do have a fundamental problem with the federal cash transaction reporting requirement. It is as bad as criminal potential profiling and electronic wiretap and data warehousing without clear evidence of criminal activity. Is it right to pull over a black guy in tattered clothes because he is driving a Mercedes convertible and that doesn't seem quite right? Why should it be right for the government to track personal cash transactions without separate reasonable suspicion of criminal activity? Yes, havong more information makes catching the bad guys easier. That doesn't make it right with my yard stick. The FBI had been trying for decades to get increasingly lax policies for them to monitor the citizenry and were turned down repeatedly until the PA. Now if one questions the policy and argues against increasing surveillance powers, he gets the rhetorical, "What do you care unless you've got something to hide?" Well, I for one have plenty to hide even if it makes no difference if someone knows it. It is just a matter of what is MY business and what is THEIR business. My requirements are to obey the letter and spirit of the laws and pay my fair share of taxes to the government. That's it; nada mas. Unless I fail to carry out my responsibility and/or they have good reason to believe I have failed to do so, I owe them nothing more.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>I heard that if Hillary is elected, all new computers will have a secret camera so they can watch you from your computer >>
Well, I guess I'll have to start wearing pants while on this forum. LOL.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Camelot
<< <i>Pants? you wear pants? >>
Yes, in fact, I do. I'm not some dirty bear or anything like that.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Thank goodness W would never lie to us.... right?
No more than the other dozen lies he's told.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thank goodness W would never lie to us.... right?
No more than the other dozen lies he's told. >>
In all fairness, poliicians are nearly categorically liars, administration to administration across party lines. Perhaps ther eis a difference in the case of the Great Communicator and now the Great Cheerleader....they are probably almost all someone else's crafted lies.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
From what I understand if you own coins worth double melt you are ok so $20 common Libs are no good but $20 CC libs are fine, $3 gold coins are fine but American eagles are not.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
The basics.
Yes, it is for money laundering. Sort of an extension of what the IRS already does for $10,000 cash transactions. The bill is not well-written and I believe some of the interpretations by IRS/HS agents may not be 100% correct. A course was given to coin dealers last year and for only $800 or so, an ex-IRS agent would draw you up a plan to cover your a$$. Just another tax.
The threshold to be included in PA2 requirements is $50,000.
It applies to sellers and BUYERS as well. Collectors too.
If you sell and/or purchase (the sum of those) $50k a year in
"bullionesque/collectibles valued like bullion" items, then you must
adhere to the rules of PA2.
Collectibles worth < than 2X the value of the intrinsic metal are
coverable under PA2. Right now that would include MS65 Saints!
It would not however include MS66 or 67 Saints. If you are buying
jewelry at <2X intrinsic value that is coverable. There is a special
exemption in there for jewelers who buy only from wholesalers and
sell only to the public.
Those rules include having a written plan in place. Self audits.
Annual training of employees, etc.
As a seller you must know who your buyer is. If you are doing due
diligence per PA2 and sell to money launders, drug traffickers,
terrorists, etc then you are in for trouble. It's all about DD and
documenting your a$$.
If you don't sell or purchase $50K per year, it doesn't apply.
If you fail to comply I believe the fines run to $250K...and I don't
recall if jail time is part of that too.
They apparently don't differentiate between cash or check. If you
buy $50K by check, you have reached the threshold. If you only
transact $49K per year, every year, you are exempt.
The bill is aimed at the big boys who deal in bullion....like your
Heritages, Silvertown, Rarcoa, NGE, Gainsville. etc. But it equally applies to your local B&M shops if they sell or buy $50k per year.
And for any active shop, they certainly exceed that number.
I've not heard anything about audits in our industry to date and figure most of the PA2 cries we heard a year ago have gone away.
But at some point in time when B&M shops are making zillions, watch a few audits fly.
roadrunner
<< <i>Thank goodness W would never lie to us.... right?
Brother, if your thinkin' W is the only politician that ever lied to you, how in the world did you ever hold on to all that money you have?
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Hence he can be arrested under something with more teeth than the > $10,000 IRS cash statute. You don't have to find him with the drugs, just the fact that he didn't abide by the >$50K PA2 regs.
By getting in the idea that anything worth < 2X its intrinsic value is considered "bullion" I think they may have opened up the door to the IRS for example to use that number as well. Just a thought of what worst case could be. There is nothing written in law about the so-called "15%" rule that the IRS (and accountants) typically apply to determine what's bullion and what's a "rare coin." But with PA2 putting <2X (or <+100%) in print, another door has been opened.
Where is Dan Quayle when we need to spell potato/potatoe...ummm...or is that "stent"?
<< <i>"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
Some of the provisions of the Patriot Act were scheduled to sunset afte 4 years, but these were all part of the original act. Interesting that a variety of different Liberal AND conservative groups and now the majority of the general public have finally seen the light.
Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.
* Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.
* Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.
* Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
* Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.
* Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
* Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. >>
Hey BobbaFett, hope you have a good laugh....I know I did(Pharmer too!)
<< <i>Must have heard it from this guy..
Brother, why would you try to make your point with a doctored pic?
Now, about that rumor....go read the applicable law, check cases and report back with facts not rumors.
<< <i>
<< <i>Must have heard it from this guy..
Brother, why would you try to make your point with a doctored pic? >>
The sad part about this is, THIS IS NOT A DOCTORED PIC. I totaly believe this is an original picture..roflmao..
Leo, if you'll believe that pic, then you'll believe anything.
as far as I know, dealers must report all sales in excess of a certain dollar amt, and ALL sales once they (the dealer) passes 50K of TOTAL bullion sales
this is ONLY for anti money laundering, etc.....
not for confiscation....
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Must have heard it from this guy..
Brother, why would you try to make your point with a doctored pic? >>
The sad part about this is, THIS IS NOT A DOCTORED PIC. I totaly believe this is an original picture..roflmao..
Prove it!!
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Sorry hucksters.
P.S. I am not affiliated with huckstoys. I'm just trying to stay coin related.
HE>I
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I sure am glad this is on the internet...That way I know it's all ture!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Must have heard it from this guy..
Brother, why would you try to make your point with a doctored pic? >>
The sad part about this is, THIS IS NOT A DOCTORED PIC. I totaly believe this is an original picture..roflmao..
Prove it!! >>
Just for the record, this is a doctored photo.
Linky
<< <i>If it wishes to, the Government can confiscate
all you own, including your very soul.
How very true Bear.
Well, I was kind of wondering why Halliburton was awarded the 385 million dollar contract to build multiple 'detention' centers (or internment camps) in the U.S....... now it is making sense.
As soon as they strip the gold from you, they will herd you into one...... !
(BTW, it is true that a Halliburton subsidiary does have that contract....... )
<< <i>
Well, I was kind of wondering why Halliburton was awarded the 385 million dollar contract to build multiple 'detention' centers (or internment camps) in the U.S....... now it is making sense.
>>
Actually, they're just going to buy those FEMA trailers and rent them to undocumented workers while their paperwork is being processed so they can get bennies from the Democratic congress.
HE>I
As someone who has been politically active in a state located in the Mid Atlantic, for thirty years, all I can say is that your father was right.
I have come to the conclusion, that, this country has to be run by someone who has lots of his own money, is squeaky clean, and, has no fear of loosing anything.
I am sorry to add that I doubt that person exist.
<< <i>They don't like people being able to hide their wealth or transport it easily. That's why they don't print higher that $100 bill now. >>
I thought it was because of counterfeiting.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Must have heard it from this guy..
Brother, why would you try to make your point with a doctored pic? >>
The sad part about this is, THIS IS NOT A DOCTORED PIC. I totaly believe this is an original picture..roflmao..
Prove it!! >>
Just for the record, this is a doctored photo.
Linky >>
Thanks pauljuno for the truth....what say Leon????
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Must have heard it from this guy..
Brother, why would you try to make your point with a doctored pic? >>
The sad part about this is, THIS IS NOT A DOCTORED PIC. I totaly believe this is an original picture..roflmao..
The sad part is that you are "totally" wrong Leo...Thanks pauljuno and curly!!!!!!!!
Looks like Leonidas suffers from BDS(Bush Derangement Syndrome)
Apologies accepted here.......................................
And that only means having an approved anti-money laundering plan
and enforcing it with documentation. It indicates it's all based on common sense and reasonable "citizen" type standards. But to me it smacks more of tracking who has the precious metals.
roadrunner
<< <i>Streeter wrote: "he related to me that he had thought about my remarks from time to time and made a comment along the lines that "something needed to be done in the country because things were out of control." "the only people who can do it are people who are squeaky clean and older and have no fear of losing everything."
As someone who has been politically active in a state located in the Mid Atlantic, for thirty years, all I can say is that your father was right.
I have come to the conclusion, that, this country has to be run by someone who has lots of his own money, is squeaky clean, and, has no fear of loosing anything.
I am sorry to add that I doubt that person exist. >>
I sure as heck hope noone alters our Constitution to put that self-absorbed moron who's running our state in the oval office.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Yes, where bright shiney new euro coins now costs me $1.486
A lunch out for the family runs $75--a simple lunch like pizza and water (tap water at that 2 euro for a half liter, but it was potable and only 2 of 5 family members were sickened by it!)
Dinner for the family is an easy $200, thus we don't go out to dinner. >>
Country: Belgium
Oh, that's explains your post
Free Trial
for president would be a person that
does not want the job. Such a person would
not get nominated. It takes so much money to
run for office, that all candidates must make a Faustian
bargain, in order to even make a serious effort.
I fear, that a Government of the people, for the people
and by the people has become a hollow myth. The incestuous
relationship between legislators and lobbyists is obscene. When
Government Agencies that were created to protect the public,are run
by former spokespersons from the very industries that they are supposed
to regulate,makes one wonder just how stupid the Government officials think
that the people are. The great tragedy is that so few Americans actually take
the time to vote. Our Government is actually put in office by what is in effect
a very small minority. For those of us who served in the military to protect our
rights and freedoms, this seems rather sad and tragic. The right to vote in free
elections, was paid for in blood. What a terrible waste to see it thrown away by
folks.
Camelot
<< <i>Jerry, avoiding problems re cash transacations of $10,000 or over is not difficult. This is a hoop we've had to jump through for quite sometime, now. Reporting them properly is quite simple. See form 8300 and its instructions. >>
Yea but I've never had to worry about that since it has always been easier to just ask for a different form of payment. --Jerry
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set