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Monday Market Memories
homerunhall
Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭
Full this and that...and other grading qualifiers.
Probably the first "full" strike that mattered was Standing Liberty quarters with fully struck heads. As long as I can remember (starting with the early 1960s), these coins were distinguished and brought a premium price. The other full strike premium coin at the time was full step Jefferson nickels. It was of course a much different market then. Very few people looked at coins the way we do now. Coins were considered uncirculated or not uncirculated. Prooflike dollars mattered a little, but few cared about superb mark free surfaces and/or outrageous toning. The original mintage was a big driving factor in pricing and the low mintage coins carried the big premiums in all grades. With that in mind, it's kind of surprising that any buyers at all paid attention to full head Standing Liberty quarters and full step Jefferson nickels. I guess the differences in full head and flat head quarters was so dramatic that it was hard to ignore. And Jefferson nickels were extrememly popular at the time. In fact, the two most widely collected series of the early 1960s were Lincoln cents and Jefferson nickels.
The next series to have a grading qualifier that mattered was Mercury dimes. I remember in about 1974 or so, the late Tom MacAfee told me I should start paying attention to the bands on the back of Mercury dimes. At a show he showed me a 1945-P with full bands that he had just sold for $50. Since this was a very common $1 or so coin at the time, available by the roll...I thought this was totally crazy. But Tom explained the deal to me and how he had collectors looking for full band dimes, so I started paying attention. In fact, I became one of the first dealers to specialize in full band dimes. I even put together a complete 1934 to 1945 roll set of full band Gems (except the 1945-P of course.) I would bid on the dealer teletype for original rolls, then cherry pick the rolls and sell off the flat bands. So I developed a roll set, i.e. an inventory of 50 of every date. In 1976, the Coin Dealer Newsletter added prices for full band Mercs and that market was off to the races.
Interestingly, in the late 1970s, the Jefferson nickel market was so out of favor that full step nickel collecting dwindled to a mere handfull of collectors. That market didn't really revive until PCGS started designating full steps 10 years or so ago, and then the Set Registry really got things going in a big way. I remember that one of the first guys to compete heavily in the full step Jefferson nickel Registry was the famous baseball card dealer Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen. When I found out what he was doing I called him and asked him why. He said he collected coins as a kid and he was now having a ball with his Jefferson set. Seemed like a great amswer to me.
I guess it was in the early 1980s that a few dealers started pushing full bell line Franklin half dollars. But the interest was so low that when PCGS launched in 1986 we didn't even designate full bell lines. That "official" designation would come a few years later. And today it's a very popular market.
And then there were "full torch," or what is now called "full band," Roosevelt dimes. A few dealers tried to jump start this market in the late 1980s and frankly everyone laughed at them. But years later, when the Set Registry got people more interested in Roosies, the full band idea caught on.
There are of course other grading qualifiers. The most famous of all grading qualifiers is probably "prooflike," specifically prooflike Morgan dollars. Prooflike Morgan dollars are much more common than other prooflikes of the era because Mint State Morgans are so much more available. Unlike other coins of the era, Morgans were stored in Treasury vaults for years, so they are still around by the millions in Mint State condition. And of course a small percentage of those coins are prooflike, but it's a small percentage of a very large number. I remember prooflike Morgans carrying a premium in the mid-1960s. In 1966, when common date rolls of 20 coins were $28 for O-mints and $30 for S-mints, i.e. about $1.50 a coin, you could get as much as $5 to $10 for a super deep prooflike on a bid board! Oh, those were the days. Interest in prooflike Morgans by the date reached a height in the 1975-1985 time frame, spurred on by the Wayne Miller book. And as we know, some of the dates are impossible to near impossible to find with prooflike surfaces. When PCGS started in 1986, we only designated MS and PL. But we kept getting comments about those "ultra deep mirror prooflikes." So we then decided to designated "prooflike" and "deep mirror prooflike." The concept has morphed a little and we now call deep mirror prooflikes (but not neccessarily ultra deep mirror) "Deep Mirror prooflike." And we call not so deep prooflikes, "Prooflike." Interestingly, after being high demand items in the 1975-1985 time period, prooflike Morgans weren't big items in the late 1980s. I even used tell people that the one numismatic item that didn't translate well into the "PCGS system" was prooflike Morgans, and I speculated that the plastic holder made it harder to appreciate the full impact of the mirrored surfaces. But the market revived and now prooflikes are once again avidly collected.
Copper coins have a very important qualifier...color. In the 1970s, if a large cent was uncirculated and brown, it was graded MS60. If it was red and brown, it was graded MS65. And if it was full red, it was graded MS70...regardless of strike or marks! Today, Mint State copper coins are graded on the basis of strike, marks, and luster, and then the color is stated as a qualifier...Red...Red & Brown...or Brown.
Finally, there's Cameo and Deep Cameo for proof coins. Cameos aren't that new of a market. Frosted cameo proofs were noted by collectors in the early 1960s. I remember when proof 1964 Kenedy half dollars were about $6 and a deeply "frosted" (as they were called then) example sold for $25 on a local bid board, a jaw dropping price at the time. Most 1820 to 1915 proofs are cameos. And all 1980 to date brilliant proofs are cameos. But the 1936 to 1942 proofs are extreme rarities as cameos. And the 1950 to 1964 proofs are relatively scarce. The real pioneer in this area is dealer specialist Rick Tomaska. He specialized in 1950 to 1964 cameo proofs before any other dealer would even pay attention. He wrote a book promoting the virtues of cameos and frankly, we all laughed at him. But he was the visionary and we were the fools as this market has developed into a very serious collector market. When PCGS decided to start designating Cameo and Deep Cameo, we of course sought Rick's help.
I've kind of rambled tonight, but if you've made it this far I hope you enjoyed the stories. The coin market is ever evolving...mostly for the better.
Have fun with your coins!
David hrh
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I enjoy these posts HRH !!
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Sorry about the lack of responses this time, I think we are all still stunned by goldbully's revelation. Who knew?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
OPA,
60 years old...61 this April...with the scars to prove it.
Coin Deuce...TDN convinced us. It's not a big market, but it's interesting and a couple of collectors do it.
hrh
us with you down memory lane. Thank you.
Camelot
I found the latest Monday installment to be quite interesting. I mistakenly thought that the "full strike" designations were more recent, registry set-related gimmicks.
Question: Are there any 19th century series that are worth similar "full strike" consideration?
Robert
Tbig
It was so hard to find a lot of gems before slabbing because it re-
quired you to seek them out yourself. You could look through a lot
of rolls and not find much and the looking was often a very expen-
sive proposition. Those who feel they missed out should know that
even if you were in the thick of it, it wasn't easy or inexpensive to
assemble things like a roll set of the short merc series. Even paying
$10 for a gem Morgan was scary when everyone thought you were
nuts.
The trend toward quality just keeps going. Someday it will reverse
but for now it seems most collectors just want to collect as high grade
as they can afford.
I really like the qualifiers and would like to see them expand but col-
lectors shouldn't get caught up paying huge premiums for coins with
the qualifiers if the coin is ugly. It may be OK in a few rare cases but
usually if any coins have fully struck details then some will be attrac-
tive and be well struck overall.
Collectors, generally, need to pay more attention to the coin and less
to the grade. Of course the grade matters in pricing but it's the coin
we're collecting and needing to live with for a while.
I put the deal together for Alan to start off with a monster PCGS Registry set, which he improved from there before selling (Justhavingfun now owns virtually all of these nickels today). That original Jeff set was a combination of the efforts of a fellow named Steve Pierce (1999 Jeff nickel PCGS registry set winner) and Steve Heller (Registrycoin) (Registry Hall of Famer and visionary as to where the Jeff nickel set was heading in the future). Pierce and Heller in 1999-2001 - these two guys were the true Registry Jeff nickel visionaries. But, there is even a greater story behind their efforts....
In the 1999 (paperback book edition) of the PCGS Registry (there was no computer registry back then), Pierce was the #1 MS JFull Step Jeff nickel set holder and the PCGS comments to his #1 set mentioned that the set he assembled might never be duplicated (something along those lines). Heller found that challenge interesting and beginning as soon as he read that passage, Heller started to build a FS Jeff nickel set as well. Pierce and Heller then started competing for the top nickels that became available and prices rose sharply. These (2) guys fought it out for each new coin that was freshly slabbed. Within a few years, Heller closed in on Pierce's #1 set - in fact, Heller came within -1- nickel upgrade of topping Pierce.
I got in a fresh pop 1 Jeff and offered it to Heller. In a gesture you simply do not see these days in registry competition, Heller purchased my nickel but elected to NOT place the coin in his reigstry set (which would have made him #1). Instead, he contacted Pierce, told Pierce what a fun challenge it had been to compete with him for the #1 Jeff nickel spot over the past few years and offered Pierce any coins he wanted out of his (Heller's) set!! Heller told Pierce that Pierce truly deserved to be #1 and Heller would never think of entering a coin in the Registry that would knock Pierce out of that deserved spot. Pierce was so touched by Heller's gesture that he told Heller that it would be HIS honor to offer Heller any coins Heller wanted from his (Pierce's) set!! For about a week, these (2) guys went back and forth inviting (practically begging) each other to purchase coins from their sets. Neither gentleman would do so. Instead, in the end, both guys consigned their sets to me for me to create the "world class Jeff nickel set" of its day and I combined the sets with the very best coins from each set to sell the combined set to "Mr. Mint". This way, Pierce and Heller ended their multi-year FS Jeff collecting rivalry in a dead heat tie for first place in the Registry. Again, "registry" at its finest.
On top of that, Pierce had an incredble set of 1965-date Jeffs and those were sold off to R. Overby I believe, creating what is now (still) the greatest 1965-date set of Jeffs which Ray has.
Pierce and Heller - the true pioneers of the full step Jeff nickel Registry collecting!! When I sell off Justhavingfun's incredible MS Jeff nickel collection early next year (as is expected now), I will make sure the auction company recounts in vivid detail the rich history of this great Registry series and who the players were that made it great!
Wondercoin
Brother, I look forward to this thread every Monday.
Joe.
I like finding coins in PCGS rattlers that were holdered before the grading quailifers existed.
<< <i>I enjoy these posts HRH !! >>
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
I had to buy the book (Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detecting) to get a lot of this information , HRH.
Will you send me a rebate ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
FB is really confusing on Rossi Dimes... why wasn't it done as "FT"?
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
RYK,
The 19th century market seems to be fine as is. Strike is part of the mint state grade and incorporated as such. The coins are so rare anyway that adding the full strike qualifier seems overkill. Think about it...the coins with the full strike designations (with maybe the exception of the Standing Liberty quarter series and the rare date Mercury dimes) are fairly available in MS condition...Franklin halves, Jefferson nickels, Roosevelt dimes...not all that rare in MS condition. But each of these series have some issues that are super rare in fully struck condition, hence added challenge and fun comes with the qualifier, without making the series impossible.
I was pretty sure full bands on Roosevelt dimes would never fly, but I was wrong. Some have asked about full claws on Susan B Anthony dollars. I'm pretty sure that won't fly, but I could be wrong again. The full claw SBAs seem like the most likely candidate for the added qualifier.
hrh
<< <i>I got in a fresh pop 1 Jeff and offered it to Heller. In a gesture you simply do not see these days in registry competition, Heller purchased my nickel but elected to NOT place the coin in his reigstry set (which would have made him #1). Instead, he contacted Pierce, told Pierce what a fun challenge it had been to compete with him for the #1 Jeff nickel spot over the past few years and offered Pierce any coins he wanted out of his (Heller's) set!! Heller told Pierce that Pierce truly deserved to be #1 and Heller would never think of entering a coin in the Registry that would knock Pierce out of that deserved spot. Pierce was so touched by Heller's gesture that he told Heller that it would be HIS honor to offer Heller any coins Heller wanted from his (Pierce's) set!! For about a week, these (2) guys went back and forth inviting (practically begging) each other to purchase coins from their sets. Neither gentleman would do so. Instead, in the end, both guys consigned their sets to me for me to create the "world class Jeff nickel set" of its day and I combined the sets with the very best coins from each set to sell the combined set to "Mr. Mint". This way, Pierce and Heller ended their multi-year FS Jeff collecting rivalry in a dead heat tie for first place in the Registry. Again, "registry" at its finest. >>
What an outstanding story!
I collected as a kid. In 1998 I got the collecting bug again when I stopped by a coin show to take a peek. I had never been to a coin show and the long dormant bug ignited in me.
I always liked proof coins from the 50's and 60's (since I was born in 1956) and thus I took an interest in these coins. I found, bought and read Mr. Tomaska's book on Cameos from 1950-70 and started looking for these coins. Have been at it for about 8 years now and have a "stash" of these coins. One day I will get around to having them slabbed.
I wonder if PCGS would be receptive to a package deal where I submit large numbers of these coins at a discounted price
<< <i>Thanks so much for sharing your Mondays with us.
Let's not tell him this place is addictive until he has 10,000 posts.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Very interesting material
<< <i>RYK,
The 19th century market seems to be fine as is. Strike is part of the mint state grade and incorporated as such. The coins are so rare anyway that adding the full strike qualifier seems overkill. Think about it...the coins with the full strike designations (with maybe the exception of the Standing Liberty quarter series and the rare date Mercury dimes) are fairly available in MS condition...Franklin halves, Jefferson nickels, Roosevelt dimes...not all that rare in MS condition. >>
Read this a few times. If you want to understand which series (especially now exonumia) get slabbed and which don't, this will help you understand it. (Offered w/o any anti-slab intent for once.)
Ed. S.
(EJS)
always
K S
These posts are most appreciated-thanks!
Don
I didn't realize there even was a "monday night" post so now I'll have to go look them up and see what I missed. I still have much to learn.
Hoard the keys.