<< <i>The MLB and it's players aren't above the law >>
but MLB is not law-enforcement. Some employers don't drug test their employees and some even hire felons so long as they do the work -- until very recently that is the choice baseball made. Bonds may have cheated the law, but not the sport >>
What I'm reading, like with every post in Bonds favor, is circular talk. You agree that the MLB and its players aren't above the law, but say the MLB isn't law enforcement. Ok, sure. Then you sum up by saying "Bonds may have cheated the law, but not the sport." However, you just agreed that the MLB and its players aren't above the law. The truth is, Bonds has in fact cheated the sport of baseball if he has ever knowingly used steroids because that says he didn't follow the laws that supercede the rules of the MLB.
I'm totally accustom to and expect plays on words in support of Bonds. The same has happened for every sports star turned potential felon in sports history. The truth of the matter is, if Bonds is found guilty of perjury it will completely justify him as being not only a liar, but a cheater. It is true to say this indictment is about lying, not cheating; however, if Bonds lied, he lied about cheating (using steroids). If he did abuse steroids, why would he feel the need to cover it up, unless he felt such information would be detrimental to his career in baseball? If all of this is true, Bonds would rather perjure himself than lose face in the sport of baseball by acknowledging he "improved" himself illegally.
I've had co-workers who were drug users. They still did their job well. The person signing the pay check didn't test them for drugs, didn't consider them cheaters, and continued to let them work. MLB took the same approach with Bonds in 1999 when he started using drugs
Sorry if that seems circular compared to the straight foward war on drugs
What if Barry cuts a plea agreement to perjury and/or obstruction, then gets probation and a big fine? What if we don't know the substance of what he lied about. Could he may a general plea to lying about who his doctor was or where he bought his prescriptions? MLB would be in a significantly tighter spot finding a way to sanction him.
Collector of 1976 Topps baseball for some stupid reason. Collector of Pittsburgh Pirates cards for a slightly less stupid reason. My Pirates Collection
The MLB is analogous to a corporate headquarters, the teams to factories owned by the headquarters, the players to workers in the factories. If one worker is using a service or product, deemed illegal by the US Government, to increase productivity, this action over-inflates the productivity of the worker and the factory for whom he works. This leads to better productivity numbers for the factory in question, in comparison to all other factories, the individual workers in the factories, and all past workers in the factories.
That is a scenario of cheating, one that is completely analogous to claims against Barry Bonds.
Could the argument be made that the factory in question, and even their corporate headquarters, are at fault for not eliminating the issue if they were aware of it? Certainly. Ultimately, and in the eyes of the law, the responsibility will belong to the worker. Though that is not to say the company will not be penalized as well.
The potential benefit Bonds received from steroids isn't additional strength (while it should be factored in), but increased healing capacity. He was able to battle through injuries much easier than the average 40-something in the Big Leagues, and still had a substantial loss of playing time through his last few seasons. If this can at all be attributed to steroids, I'd like to know how well he would have performed without the additional healing capability. I believe his lost time would be much more substantial, to the point of even earlier retirement.
<< <i><<<You sir, are missing the biggest point.....
Nobody is going after Bonds for Using Steroids....His Mistake was getting caught lying to a federal grand jury....he could have been lying about taxes, sleeping with prostitutes, or taking steroids unknowingly...it doesnt matter whatthe subject matter is....what matters is that HE GOT CAUGHT LYING TO THEM AND TRYING TO GET SOMEONE ELSE TO LIE FOR HIM (obstruction charge)..
..its not about steroids anymore, he will go to jail for not telling the truth!>>>
Fandango....what point am I missing exactly? I was responding to the point made that steroids were never legal in baseball, which is not true. I never said anything about what the feds were going after Bonds for, only that they will lose. And, by the way, "he got caught lying" sounds a bit presumptious since the trial hasn't even begun yet. You may be right, but I'll put my money on the feds screwing this one up. >>
The feds are alleging Bonds was lying, and it is now up to them to prove their case. If his trainer who administered the drugs does not come forward and testify truthfully, or testifys that he never told Bonds what he was administering I think it will be a very tough sell as Bonds can continue to say he did not knowingly take steroids. The Ex-Girlfriend will automatically be dismissed, as she appears to only be coming forward for peronal gain.
In my opinion this is a big waste of tax payer money to prove a guy lied when every one knows he lied. Bonds has already been judged in the court of public opinion. Wasting money and resources to send him to jail for a few months is pointless.
As far as the records go, I think we just have to live with the results of this era. For all the batter's who took the drugs, I would bet there are an equal number of pitchers who played with the devil that we just couldn't see the end results as clearly an an increase in hitting home runs.
Bunch o Bull, Most of what you write is correct, except it fails to address the issue that sports of been trying to keep steroids out for decades and have failed miserably. The Olympics first banned drugs before Barry Bonds was in first grade, yet athletes brought their own pharmacists with them to Mexico. When it is has been shown so many times how it is impossible to keep them out, the sport has the option of allowing everyone to do so at their own risk. For decades that is exactly how MLB wanted to run the sport.
In the example you give, if corporate headquarters makes it a policy to ignore the illegal activity -- and actually encourage it -- is it still cheating? To me at that point it simply becomes a part of the sport and is not cheating
And the biggest advantages steroids do to help an athlete go far beyond improved health
<< <i>Nov. 17, 2007, 6:31AM BASEBALL Failed tests vital to case on Bonds Famed Reds broadcaster Nuxhall dies; Glavine gets offer
Chronicle News Services
SAN FRANCISCO — "I've never seen these documents," Barry Bonds said.
He was testifying before a federal grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, or BALCO, and had just been shown what prosecutors say was a positive steroid test conducted on a player named Barry B.
"I've never seen these papers," Bonds repeated, according to Thursday's indictment charging Bonds with perjury and obstruction of justice.
Those test results may now be the vital linchpin to proving he lied under oath.
Bonds' lawyers are expected to fiercely attack their reliability, much the way O.J. Simpson's legal team undermined the football star's murder case by questioning the handling of his blood samples.
Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, declined to comment. But BALCO founder Victor Conte offered some insight Friday into how the slugger's legal team might cast doubt on the evidence.
It was November 2000, and Bonds was preparing for the season in which he would shatter Mark McGwire's single-season home run record.
According to Conte, himself a convicted steroids dealer, Bonds would visit the lab on Saturdays and after normal business hours with an entourage that included his trainer, Greg Anderson, and his personal physician, Dr. Arthur Ting. >>
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>The MLB and it's players aren't above the law >>
but MLB is not law-enforcement. Some employers don't drug test their employees and some even hire felons so long as they do the work -- until very recently that is the choice baseball made. Bonds may have cheated the law, but not the sport >>
What I'm reading, like with every post in Bonds favor, is circular talk. You agree that the MLB and its players aren't above the law, but say the MLB isn't law enforcement. Ok, sure. Then you sum up by saying "Bonds may have cheated the law, but not the sport." However, you just agreed that the MLB and its players aren't above the law. The truth is, Bonds has in fact cheated the sport of baseball if he has ever knowingly used steroids because that says he didn't follow the laws that supercede the rules of the MLB.
I'm totally accustom to and expect plays on words in support of Bonds. The same has happened for every sports star turned potential felon in sports history. The truth of the matter is, if Bonds is found guilty of perjury it will completely justify him as being not only a liar, but a cheater. It is true to say this indictment is about lying, not cheating; however, if Bonds lied, he lied about cheating (using steroids). If he did abuse steroids, why would he feel the need to cover it up, unless he felt such information would be detrimental to his career in baseball? If all of this is true, Bonds would rather perjure himself than lose face in the sport of baseball by acknowledging he "improved" himself illegally.
Sorry if that seems circular compared to the straight foward war on drugs
Collector of Pittsburgh Pirates cards for a slightly less stupid reason.
My Pirates Collection
That is a scenario of cheating, one that is completely analogous to claims against Barry Bonds.
Could the argument be made that the factory in question, and even their corporate headquarters, are at fault for not eliminating the issue if they were aware of it? Certainly. Ultimately, and in the eyes of the law, the responsibility will belong to the worker. Though that is not to say the company will not be penalized as well.
The potential benefit Bonds received from steroids isn't additional strength (while it should be factored in), but increased healing capacity. He was able to battle through injuries much easier than the average 40-something in the Big Leagues, and still had a substantial loss of playing time through his last few seasons. If this can at all be attributed to steroids, I'd like to know how well he would have performed without the additional healing capability. I believe his lost time would be much more substantial, to the point of even earlier retirement.
<< <i><<<You sir, are missing the biggest point.....
Nobody is going after Bonds for Using Steroids....His Mistake was getting caught lying to a federal grand jury....he could have been lying about taxes, sleeping with prostitutes, or taking steroids unknowingly...it doesnt matter whatthe subject matter is....what matters is that HE GOT CAUGHT LYING TO THEM AND TRYING TO GET SOMEONE ELSE TO LIE FOR HIM (obstruction charge)..
..its not about steroids anymore, he will go to jail for not telling the truth!>>>
Fandango....what point am I missing exactly? I was responding to the point made that steroids were never legal in baseball, which is not true. I never said anything about what the feds were going after Bonds for, only that they will lose. And, by the way, "he got caught lying" sounds a bit presumptious since the trial hasn't even begun yet. You may be right, but I'll put my money on the feds screwing this one up. >>
The feds are alleging Bonds was lying, and it is now up to them to prove their case. If his trainer who administered the drugs does not come forward and testify truthfully, or testifys that he never told Bonds what he was administering I think it will be a very tough sell as Bonds can continue to say he did not knowingly take steroids. The Ex-Girlfriend will automatically be dismissed, as she appears to only be coming forward for peronal gain.
In my opinion this is a big waste of tax payer money to prove a guy lied when every one knows he lied. Bonds has already been judged in the court of public opinion. Wasting money and resources to send him to jail for a few months is pointless.
As far as the records go, I think we just have to live with the results of this era. For all the batter's who took the drugs, I would bet there are an equal number of pitchers who played with the devil that we just couldn't see the end results as clearly an an increase in hitting home runs.
J
Most of what you write is correct, except it fails to address the issue that sports of been trying to keep steroids out for decades and have failed miserably. The Olympics first banned drugs before Barry Bonds was in first grade, yet athletes brought their own pharmacists with them to Mexico. When it is has been shown so many times how it is impossible to keep them out, the sport has the option of allowing everyone to do so at their own risk. For decades that is exactly how MLB wanted to run the sport.
In the example you give, if corporate headquarters makes it a policy to ignore the illegal activity -- and actually encourage it -- is it still cheating? To me at that point it simply becomes a part of the sport and is not cheating
And the biggest advantages steroids do to help an athlete go far beyond improved health
Edited to add: From today's Houston Chronicle
Link
<< <i>Nov. 17, 2007, 6:31AM
BASEBALL
Failed tests vital to case on Bonds
Famed Reds broadcaster Nuxhall dies; Glavine gets offer
Chronicle News Services
SAN FRANCISCO — "I've never seen these documents," Barry Bonds said.
He was testifying before a federal grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, or BALCO, and had just been shown what prosecutors say was a positive steroid test conducted on a player named Barry B.
"I've never seen these papers," Bonds repeated, according to Thursday's indictment charging Bonds with perjury and obstruction of justice.
Those test results may now be the vital linchpin to proving he lied under oath.
Bonds' lawyers are expected to fiercely attack their reliability, much the way O.J. Simpson's legal team undermined the football star's murder case by questioning the handling of his blood samples.
Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, declined to comment. But BALCO founder Victor Conte offered some insight Friday into how the slugger's legal team might cast doubt on the evidence.
It was November 2000, and Bonds was preparing for the season in which he would shatter Mark McGwire's single-season home run record.
According to Conte, himself a convicted steroids dealer, Bonds would visit the lab on Saturdays and after normal business hours with an entourage that included his trainer, Greg Anderson, and his personal physician, Dr. Arthur Ting. >>