"junk" silver vesus Silver Bullion coins
rah1959
Posts: 964 ✭
I can't seem to get my head around the below...everytime I think I have it figured out...I end up swinging back over the other way.
If a person wanted to just hoard away silver...for future investment...what is the best method overall:
1.) "junk" silver US coins (halves,quarters, dimes) at 0-10% over melt
or
2.) common date "junk" Silver Eagles at 0-10% over melt
If you could get either at the same percentage at or just above melt...which way would you go to pack silver away??
When it comes time to sell...is there any advantage over one versus the other??
I have hoarded much of each..but would rather just stick to just one way if there is an advantage.......have wondered this for quite sometime.
Thanks for any and all opinions....
If a person wanted to just hoard away silver...for future investment...what is the best method overall:
1.) "junk" silver US coins (halves,quarters, dimes) at 0-10% over melt
or
2.) common date "junk" Silver Eagles at 0-10% over melt
If you could get either at the same percentage at or just above melt...which way would you go to pack silver away??
When it comes time to sell...is there any advantage over one versus the other??
I have hoarded much of each..but would rather just stick to just one way if there is an advantage.......have wondered this for quite sometime.
Thanks for any and all opinions....
0
Comments
Antique Fishing Lures
<< <i>Why not half of junk 90% and half of junk eagles? >>
thats about where I sit now......
but wonder if one was better than the other
<< <i>I'm interested to hear others' opinions on the matter, but you didn't include silver bars/rounds as an alternative...any particular reason? >>
have found when selling in the past that it is harder to sell rounds and bars...unless buyer is very experienced....many fake rounds and bars are showing up and worries some buyer I think.....
seems most trust known US Silver coins and Silver Bullion Eagles...
<< <i>You can also describe them as classic silver bullion coins and modern silver bullion coins
perfectly said!
<< <i>If you are hoarding silver or gold bullion coins, your best bet will always be .9999 Silver or Gold. They will, or should I say "should" always sell for a slight premium over spot, also they are more accepted acrossed the globe. Junk silver coins (.90) are often are bought "back of spot", and in a declining silver or gold market might be hard to sell. So my vote goes to the eagles. >>
this is where I have been leaning....the Silver bullion eagles....unless damaged or holed...seem to bring most when sold....
although..at times I have gotten a bonus from "classic bullion coins" as collectors will buy them looking to pick out something good....
seems to be an advantage to each.......so I still wonder.........
be more apt to accept?
<< <i>put the shoe on the other foot.. assume silver/gold becomes currency, which form would you
be more apt to accept? >>
interesting thought....one I hope never happens....but none the less......very interesting......
<< <i>WITH SOME OF THE PREMIUMS CHARGED FOR EAGLES LATELY, ........ >>
this is true...but I come across groups of eagles that have been handled and marked up...dings and such.........for many times not much over spot.....5-10%....
If you can find them without paying a premium, buy the eagles. But that is the only situation in which I'd take eagles over 90% "junk".
Pre-65 US silver is divisible vs. eagles, which alone makes them a better vehicle in my opinion.
But they're also easily recognizeable around the world, even to people who don't know anything about coins. Not the case with Eagles.
They've also got more numismatic interest than eagles--which really have none in less than mint state.
And pre-65 US silver almost never carries a premium--so you get more silver for your money--and that's what we're after in the first place.
So comapring the four options (bars, round, eagles, pre-65), only pre-65 are backed by the US government in terms of purity, are divisible, recognizeable, have a face value, numismatic interest, and have little if any premium. Pre-65 US silver wins hands down.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Eagles and 90% are both much better vehicles than bars or generic rounds. With the latter, their purity (and authenticity) is suspect, they have no face value, and in the case of bars, they aren't easily divisible.
If you can find them without paying a premium, buy the eagles. But that is the only situation in which I'd take eagles over 90% "junk".
Pre-65 US silver is divisible vs. eagles, which alone makes them a better vehicle in my opinion.
But they're also easily recognizeable around the world, even to people who don't know anything about coins. Not the case with Eagles.
They've also got more numismatic interest than eagles--which really have none in less than mint state.
And pre-65 US silver almost never carries a premium--so you get more silver for your money--and that's what we're after in the first place.
So comapring the four options (bars, round, eagles, pre-65), only pre-65 are backed by the US government in terms of purity, are divisible, recognizeable, have a face value, numismatic interest, and have little if any premium. Pre-65 US silver wins hands down. >>
great post..thanks...wraps it all up in one handy package....gave me lots to think about.....
Thanks to everyone that posted...I appreciate the input.
RAH
<< <i>
<< <i>put the shoe on the other foot.. assume silver/gold becomes currency, which form would you
be more apt to accept? >>
interesting thought....one I hope never happens....but none the less......very interesting...... >>
Yes it's called "WTSHTF" theory, it's all over the internet and makes for some pretty scary reading. This theory goes on to say sell anything with numismatic value and "only" buy PM bullion. I don't believe it, but it's funny I've seen a noticable contraction (smaller spread) over spot for lower grade common gold issues....interesting. Not sure about silver. This might be normal in a rising metals market, I don't know.
I knew it would happen.
made the most sense because i could easily understand it and figure
out its value on the fly.
it allowed me to fill out an album so it had an entertainment value.
i like the idea of .999 rounds but to be honest i am not very interested
in them. buying 90% is more fun and a lot of times you can get
them for less then melt.
think mercury dimes for 90 cents. quarters for 2.30. etc.. if a dealer
in an antique store does not adjust their prices in a timely fashion
it allows me to scoop up silver at lower prices.
<< <i>as a person who recently started to accumulate some silver, 90%
made the most sense because i could easily understand it and figure
out its value on the fly.
buying 90% is more fun and a lot of times you can get
them for less then melt.
think mercury dimes for 90 cents. quarters for 2.30. etc.. if a dealer
in an antique store does not adjust their prices in a timely fashion
it allows me to scoop up silver at lower prices. >>
I agree....have done the above...many any times....thanks FC
"Junk" silver includes worn coins, so when you are talking about "premium over spot", the method of calculation is an important factor.
Is the method based on face value, or do you use the average measure of 715 ounces per $1,000 bag?
As silver goes higher, both methods become less accurate.
If silver gets high enough, neither measure is accurate enough and the coins will have to be weighed to trade.
I like coins so I would collect silver coins over bullion coins. However I would not want to pay a premium so would buy bullion coins if they were cheaper.
Junk silver can still have dates. So it would be fun for me to try to fill some albums or check off a list or something.
Will continue to concentrate on the pre-64 silver.....but will pick up what I can in the name of silver...... when the deal is right....
I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.
RAH1959
Most of them are wrong, but interesting just the same.
You will get your best value buying .999 name brand 100 ounce bars. By that I mean Englehard or J&M.
You will also get your best return the higher silver goes.
The spread is increasing and will continue to do so with 90% as silver rises. Many buyers are now weighing instead of just counting the coins. That makes Mercs a bad bet. $100 face in Merc dimes weighs a couple ounces less than $100 face in Roosevelts or Washington quarters on average. Silver Eagles are a horrid way to amass bullion, unless you can buy them at spot. The premium is absurd and while you can get a bit more when selling, it hardly makes up for the initial cost.
I quit the counting machine last year and have moved to weighing now. Sure, it's fun to go through batches of older 90% coins and there's always the chance you may find something special. I've gotten lucky quite a few times myself there. It just depends on the source of the coins. From some guys, I know there is no point in searching anything. With others, you never know. However, sometimes it just gets to be work when you are looking at searching through a dozen full bags.
The smaller amount of silver in each piece, be it a round or 90% or a small bar, the higher the mark up at purchase and the lower the value when selling.
Stick to name brand 100 ounce bars for your best overall ROI. Yes, they are easily fungible. I do diversify by keeping a bit of all types, but only a small amount. If you want to call that diversifying. I often trade 90% junk silver coins for 100 ounce bars, it's the best buy out there.
Follow the trends, buy on the dips and sell on the spikes. Over time it will add up well for you.
But hey! Each to his own. I've only bought and sold over 100,000 ounces of silver in the last 5 years or so, so what do I know?
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Ditto for gold. GLD.
<< <i>Interesting to read all these viewpoints.
Most of them are wrong, but interesting just the same...
But hey! Each to his own. I've only bought and sold over 100,000 ounces of silver in the last 5 years or so, so what do I know? >>
Potentially as much as a used car salesman knows about rebuilding transmissions.
"With counterfeit bars, holes are drilled in the side and lead is poured in. Then the holes are covered with silver and it is almost impossible to tell this has been done. "
Caution on fake silver bars
There's a reason pharmacists don't practice medicine.
--Severian the Lame
The silver Eagles seem to be more liquid without seaching out every dealer for a price but the 90% coins you have to shop before you sell because of the spread.
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting to read all these viewpoints.
Most of them are wrong, but interesting just the same...
But hey! Each to his own. I've only bought and sold over 100,000 ounces of silver in the last 5 years or so, so what do I know? >>
Potentially as much as a used car salesman knows about rebuilding transmissions.
"With counterfeit bars, holes are drilled in the side and lead is poured in. Then the holes are covered with silver and it is almost impossible to tell this has been done. "
Caution on fake silver bars
There's a reason pharmacists don't practice medicine. >>
Foolish to worry about such things at these prices. I've seen exactly one such bar in over 30 years and that was in 1980. It's not impossible to tell, in fact it's fairly easy.
But thanks for the insult just the same.
There's a reason rookies shouldn't mess with Precious Metals as well. Just stick to your Silver Eagles, or whatever makes you happy. I'll stick to the best ROI. Beginners shouldn't mess with high end coins either. Seen a lot more fake and messed with coins than I ever have with bullion. Probably by a ratio of 1000 to one.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
many of us do not want to buy 100 ounces at a time thus the idea
does not fit the average joe.
if you have 100 x 14 to spend at once, it does sound like a neat idea.
but for most of us, we may only want to spend 50 a month or something
like that as we build up our silver holdings.
and 50 dollars buys a fine roll of roosies or mercury dimes which are very
liquid in my perspective, especially if AU/BU.
I especially like OBW rolls, but sometimes the regular unc rolls go for nice discounts. The spread between buy/sell is what you make it on the bay.
I don't track circ rolls, but I'd say that they represent a good deal in that market segment as well.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I The spread between buy/sell is what you make it on the bay. >>
The problem with Ebay is after it's fees, time to ship, and PayPal you still have a hard time getting what you can get from a dealer.
For gold? Buy KR's.
<< <i>deadhorse,
many of us do not want to buy 100 ounces at a time thus the idea
does not fit the average joe.
if you have 100 x 14 to spend at once, it does sound like a neat idea.
but for most of us, we may only want to spend 50 a month or something
like that as we build up our silver holdings.
and 50 dollars buys a fine roll of roosies or mercury dimes which are very
liquid in my perspective, especially if AU/BU. >>
I can appreciate what you are saying. I was simply giving the best ROI on silver bullion. If my budget was $50 a week, then I'd probably save up and buy 10 ounce bars at the best cost I could. The higher silver goes, the greater the spread on 90% coins. Often, this is a difficult concept to understand for some, but it essentially means you are not going to get the return you will on .999 bullion.
My budget used to be in a much smaller area as well, but with flipping, buying on the dips and selling on the spikes one can do fine. It was a lot easier to do when silver was jumping around between $4.50 and The high $7 range. Today it's quite a bit tougher, that I completely agree with. Still, it can be done.
As far as Mercs go, stick to AU, as I said earlier, with the prices going up like this, weight is now a factor when in the past it was just the coin count.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>...most of us, we may only want to spend 50 a month or something
like that as we build up our silver holdings.
and 50 dollars buys a fine roll of roosies or mercury dimes which are very
liquid in my perspective, especially if AU/BU. >>
For a few dollars more, you can buy rolls of Washingtons.
---
heh, i just did. a roll of nice XF for 88 dollars three days ago :-)
I am now considering a wash album and use the dupes in the roll.
at the rate i am going i will have an album for every later silver series
in a few years. (of course no keys).
<< <i>"With counterfeit bars, holes are drilled in the side and lead is poured in. Then the holes are covered with silver and it is almost impossible to tell this has been done. " >>
Since lead and silver have different specific gravities couldn't you just weigh the bar to verify that it wasn't tampered with?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>"With counterfeit bars, holes are drilled in the side and lead is poured in. Then the holes are covered with silver and it is almost impossible to tell this has been done. " >>
Since lead and silver have different specific gravities couldn't you just weigh the bar to verify that it wasn't tampered with? >>
Lead is about twice as dense as silver. What that would mean is the hole from removing silver would only be half filled with lead resulting in the same weight as the original bar. Because the hole is covered up, not only would the bar weigh the same, it would also have the same volume as an original bar and pass a specific density test as that would not reveal the empty space in the bar.
Most likely, the only way to detect this would be to try some sort of balance test on the bar. If there is an empty space in the bar and the person who drilled the hole did not do it in a symmetrical manner, the bar would not have the same center of mass as an original bar.
-Fuzz
I'd go with junk silver. I think the smaller unit sizes and a degree of numismatic appeal lend themselves to more potential buyers downstream.
Im with him, I like the junk, more fun to play with
Had a few 100 ounce bars in the past.....and hey were harder to sell locally....they were either scared to touch them (worried about lead filled bars)....or didn't want to put out the cost to buy.
will continue to put away what I come up with...a little bit of 90% pre-64 here...a few eagles there...it all adds up.
a couple of the coin shop dealers around here will hold common date silver eagles that have been handled and dinged....one that collectors will not buy........and I get them at spot mostly...
I will not not pay the premiums to get BU rolls of current eagles.....
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"With counterfeit bars, holes are drilled in the side and lead is poured in. Then the holes are covered with silver and it is almost impossible to tell this has been done. " >>
Since lead and silver have different specific gravities couldn't you just weigh the bar to verify that it wasn't tampered with? >>
Lead is about twice as dense as silver. What that would mean is the hole from removing silver would only be half filled with lead resulting in the same weight as the original bar. Because the hole is covered up, not only would the bar weigh the same, it would also have the same volume as an original bar and pass a specific density test as that would not reveal the empty space in the bar.
Most likely, the only way to detect this would be to try some sort of balance test on the bar. If there is an empty space in the bar and the person who drilled the hole did not do it in a symmetrical manner, the bar would not have the same center of mass as an original bar. >>
If there is a hollow space in the bar, wouldn't you hear a hollow sound when you tap the bar rather than the ringing sound that you would expect from a solid bar?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"With counterfeit bars, holes are drilled in the side and lead is poured in. Then the holes are covered with silver and it is almost impossible to tell this has been done. " >>
Since lead and silver have different specific gravities couldn't you just weigh the bar to verify that it wasn't tampered with? >>
Lead is about twice as dense as silver. What that would mean is the hole from removing silver would only be half filled with lead resulting in the same weight as the original bar. Because the hole is covered up, not only would the bar weigh the same, it would also have the same volume as an original bar and pass a specific density test as that would not reveal the empty space in the bar.
Most likely, the only way to detect this would be to try some sort of balance test on the bar. If there is an empty space in the bar and the person who drilled the hole did not do it in a symmetrical manner, the bar would not have the same center of mass as an original bar. >>
If there is a hollow space in the bar, wouldn't you hear a hollow sound when you tap the bar rather than the ringing sound that you would expect from a solid bar? >>
The odds of getting a fake/filled bar (assuming you didn't buy it sight unseen) are probably about one-tenth the likelihood of being struck by lightening.
Sheesh!! Much ado about nothing. Those things were very rare when silver was at $50 back in 1980, what's that in today's dollars?
It's not worth the trouble. If you stick with Englehard or J&M it's very easy to see if the bar has been manipulated. I've seen only one and it stuck out like a weed in a rose garden. The value of silver isn't worth the trouble and chances of ruining quality bars right now. If Silver hits $150 and ounce, then I'll think about it..... maybe. Extruded bars are not easy to drill and patch, in fact it's almost impossible. Whoever said it's almost impossible to tell simply doesn't know what they are talking about, nothing personal, but you couldn't be much more wrong if you tried.
Thieves can find better ways to make a few bucks. What will that do? Make them 15 ounces of silver for all that work? If that. The bar I saw drilled out was missing perhaps 10 ounces. Anything more and the weight differential becomes obvious. Then you have to melt the silver you've extracted and since it's not a name brand bar, expect a big back of spot sale. Better you Chicken Littles should worry about industrial silver being marketed as .999 fine. That does go on and if you're not skilled, you'll fall for it more often than not. Better profit there for crooks than drilling out bars.
I sort of wonder if many of you even know about industrial silver?
There is one easy test for a drilled bar, drop it in a 5 gallon bucket of water gently. If it tilts/rocks on the way down, it's worth looking into as being tampered with. Otherwise it will fall straight down with no odd movement.
I've never seen such concern over nothing. It's akin to leaving your home on the East Coast if there is an earthquake in California.
BTW, the buyback on 90% just dropped again today. I just traded several hundred face for some more risky Englehard 100s.
$100 face may be worth $1034.60 (spot at $14.47) but you'll only be able to get around $950-$960 for it. You'll get a bit more in full $1,000.00 bags, but not much. I was able to get $9750.00 today, but mostly because it was a trade and the dealer made a cut on the 100 ounce bars.
When $100 face was worth $500.50 (spot at $7, for example) you could get $490 for it. Notice the increase in spread? that's how it worked back in '79-'80 as well. The higher silver goes the greater the buyback spread. For those that buy paper silver, you are only hurting your investment by supporting the house of cards. Just imagine if everybody called in their paper for physical silver, we'd be seeing $35 silver almost overnight and it would continue to skyrocket from there.
Remember, there is only about 1/10th the physical silver on the planet today as there was in 1980, there is roughly the same amount of gold as there was from that same time frame.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
both are 10% over melt.
both are easily authenticated and sold.
problems come when you start to substitute silver bars and rounds and other bullion for authentic US coinage.
cheers, Alan Mendelson
www.BestDealsTVshow.com
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
I just bougt my 2nd metal bar today got a 10oz to go with my 5. got it for 14 an oz at a pawn shop...
Matt
Antique Fishing Lures
---
deadhorse, could you help me understand why a person would say
90% silver would carry a 25% premium before the year 2000 and
could the same thing happen again? I am assuming it is due to
the nature of being easy to divide it into smaller size lots...?
thanks
<< <i>there is NO difference between junk silver coins (dimes quarters halves) at 10% over melt and American Eagles at 10% over melt.
both are 10% over melt.
both are easily authenticated and sold.
problems come when you start to substitute silver bars and rounds and other bullion for authentic US coinage.
cheers, Alan Mendelson
www.BestDealsTVshow.com >>
Not a problem at all if you want to pay some huckster 10% too much I suppose.
There was a time when ASEs cost quite a bit over 10% above melt. That gap is rapidly closing. I've never paid 10% over melt for 90% coins, I'd never consider it. I've never paid over spot for ASEs either. Never will. Why?
100 ounce Englehards cost way, way less than 10% over melt and please educate the unwashed masses how there are problems with Englehard or J&M bars. I can buy at $20 over spot on 100 ounce bars and sometimes I can get them at spot or a bit less if the dealer is loaded down with them. If he ships them, he pays costs, if he sells to me, it's a quick and easy turnaround.
Are you going to tell me that 1 ounce Englehard prospector rounds are somehow "trouble"? Some of us have buckets and buckets of them stashed away. They used to sell them in 500 and 1000 ounce 5 gallon plastic buckets. I can see the reasons for keeping some 90% coins around and I do, but only a very small percentage, less than 5% overall. Again, as silver rises, the buyback from spot widens on 90%. I think the Eagles will always retain a premium. How much of a premium remains to be seen. I think the higher spot goes, the less that premium will be.
No, I don't have a TV show, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff