<< <i>For a few dollars more, you can buy rolls of Washingtons. --- heh, i just did. a roll of nice XF for 88 dollars three days ago :-) I am now considering a wash album and use the dupes in the roll.
at the rate i am going i will have an album for every later silver series in a few years. (of course no keys). >>
If you go for keys, buy the slabbed PCGS ones. If PCGS slabs aren't available, NGC will suffice. Hold those rolls as well. Silver should rise with other commodities as third world countries continue to grow and prosper into modernity. Just MHO though.
"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
<< <i>---deadhorse, could you help me understand why a person would say 90% silver would carry a 25% premium before the year 2000 and could the same thing happen again? I am assuming it is due to the nature of being easy to divide it into smaller size lots...?
thanks >>
Well...... you had me stumped there for a bit as I had a hard time following that line of reasoning. I was nearly 100% certain that no such thing ever happened.
Anyway, I just made a call to a good friend of mine. He is the largest broker/dealer in precious metals in Southeast Texas. I caught him on his cell phone as he was plugging along in traffic on the way home. He enjoyed the good laugh. While I was certain that no such thing ever occurred; that being a 25% premium on 90% coins, prior to 2000, I decided to call in a real expert who's been doing this through his B&M shop here in Houston since forever. Basically his entire life. The shop has been around since the 50s and he took over in 1969. This last few weeks everything is flying out of his store, He might have 300 oz. of gold at 10AM and be sold out by 2PM. Same is true for silver, both 90% and .999 The bags of 90% I brought in today were already sold before I left the store 30 minutes later.
90% silver never carried a 25% premium prior to 2000 or anytime in our lifetimes. I've noticed small differences across the nation over the years, but they never last long and they are always only a few percent.
I can see that a lot of people would like to deal in smaller lots and I do understand that sort of thinking process. There's something to be said for it as well, depending on one's financial position. However, I can find no evidence that such a thing ever took place.
I'm willing to be educated here, nobody knows it all. However, I can't see it ever happening in the future, short of an "Apocalypse Now" scenario. In that case, food, water, shelter and brass jacketed lead might indeed have the greatest value of all. Small value US coins would have accepted value in that case, no argument here. Maybe that's why a keep a few bags around, the ones I bought at 3 and 3.5X face years and years ago.
Sorry, I probably didn't give you the answer you were looking for, but I can't find any evidence that it ever happened.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Not to change the subject, but I I love Canadian Maple Leaves for the long term. $5 face value, which now is more that $5 USD, and they are more pure than the Eagles that have a $1 face value. I hope it never comes to the point where face value is more than silver value, but if it does, the Canadians get there first.
I've bought and sold 90% silver for investment since 1978, and there's never been a 25% premium, not even for $10.00 face. Right now, a bag shouldn't be more than a 4% spread between buy/sell.
Tulving's current spread is about 2.5% at today's prices.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
deadhorse wrote: "100 ounce Englehards cost way, way less than 10% over melt and please educate the unwashed masses how there are problems with Englehard or J&M bars."
there might be nothing wrong with your Englehards or your JM bars... but when it comes time to sell, suppose the "buyer" questions the authenticity? what are you going to do, swear on a stack of bibles?
now, suppose the price of silver crashes to 79-cents an ounce. can you spend your Englehards and JMs at the supermarket?
<< <i>Not to change the subject, but I I love Canadian Maple Leaves for the long term. $5 face value, which now is more that $5 USD, and they are more pure than the Eagles that have a $1 face value. I hope it never comes to the point where face value is more than silver value, but if it does, the Canadians get there first. >>
With all due respect, the difference in .999 and .9999 is nothing. Both contain one ounce.
I've never understood the nonsense behind the .9999 Buffalos. People pay stupid money for the same amount of gold.
Given the foolish prices paid for .9999, I'll stick to American Eagles. An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold.
It's only in our very recent lifetimes that the difference between .999 and .9999 has become a factor. Such refinery wasn't even available only a few years ago and it makes no difference in the bigger picture.
I've actually had a guy offer me five .999 gold Eagles for four .9999 Buffalos. At first I didn't take him seriously. I worked a deal with my broker and took the guy for an ounce of gold that ended up costing me only $100
What a screw up, and he was happy about it. Sorry, JMO as a metals trader. First time I ever bought the .9999s and probably the last unless I come across another sucker.
BTW, I've got sheets and sheet of Maple leafs, still sealed, but I bought them at the right price, less than spot from a guy with weak knees. .999 or .9999 makes no difference at all.
Just a marketing scheme. P.T. Barnum must be proud.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>deadhorse wrote: "100 ounce Englehards cost way, way less than 10% over melt and please educate the unwashed masses how there are problems with Englehard or J&M bars."
there might be nothing wrong with your Englehards or your JM bars... but when it comes time to sell, suppose the "buyer" questions the authenticity? what are you going to do, swear on a stack of bibles?
now, suppose the price of silver crashes to 79-cents an ounce. can you spend your Englehards and JMs at the supermarket?
You just lost about 10 points in the believability scale. "There might be nothing wrong with your Englehards or your JM bars". Might be?? You know good and well there is NOTHING WRONG with them. My buyer? Well, I have a choice of 5 within short driving distance. The buyer will never question the authenticity since most are in sealed bags, wired with a lead stamp from the seller. You've got to be kidding!
Silver isn't going to crash to 79 cents, get real. Look around at the real world before you come back with that limp nonsense. You know better than that. In fact, you'd better head for the hills should that happen. I won't have people who want to hang me in public. Can you say the same?
Come on now...... you can promote whatever fuels your wallet, but when someone as knowledgeable comes along and shoots a few holes in your tent, don't try that weak stuff. Don't even bring that game into my house.
I can promise you that you will get quite a few hits to your site from Houston tomorrow, if not already tonight. This thread, actually your posts are already getting a bit of play. We're having a bit of fun via the phone tonight. I expect more tomorrow.
I am trying to give you all due respect, but you are making it difficult.
I am honestly out of words here. I've shot down your nonsense about 10% over spot on 90% and Silver Eagles and you know it good and well.
I'm betting you are promoting one thing and stocking up on just what I am telling everyone here. I've got no agenda. I'm not trying to sell anything. I am, however, giving out solid advice, advice you cannot refute except by offering absolutely absurd arguments.
79 cents?? Want to place a wager on that?
Come on, you are free to do your thing and that's sell at over spot with your sales pitch. I stand behind the facts and the trends and I sell nothing. I will, however, buy any and all at a fair price. For you, please sell me all your silver at 79 cents. I'll wire you as much as you can handle tomorrow.
Let's just get real here. You've got an agenda to promote that makes you $$. I've shot holes in it on this forum and perhaps cost you a few customers, sorry, I won't apologize for telling the truth.
Here's a truth you won't like, but it's a fact. B&M shops would much rather buy .999 bars than 90%, they have to do both to stay competitive, but they'd rather deal in pure bullion. You know it, you don't like it, but you know it's true.
I have no desire to pick a personal fight, it's not my nature. But I will NEVER let bad advice on bullion, silver in particular, stand.
I'd suggest you seek customers and place your links elsewhere as I won't allow bad advice to go unchallenged. I have no website, I'm simply an incorporated bullion dealer, it's one of three companies I own, and this site attracts new folks, many of them newbies. I happen to be a believer in truth and want all to do well. Paying 10% over spot will not do them well.
Sheesh! You make me think anyone can write a column. I write weekly on a basketball site for pure pleasure. Maybe I should send in a few to various investment sites. Something tells me Alan Mendelson just might be one of my topics. Forget your lawyers, truth will out!
I'm sorry to say this, but you have been giving people less than good advice on precious metals and that's just the bottom line.
You know good and well that Englehard is the premier of silver bars and J&M is a close, if not equal, second. You know they can be bought at 20-35 cents over spot from honest dealers. You know good and well that beats the heck out of 90% coins and ASEs, particularly at 10% over spot as you promote. How is it that I've NEVER paid over spot for either and have all the offers I can handle? I've even told people in PMs to stay away from Sunshine. I know the back of spot prices and I'm fairly certain you do too.
I'm exhausted. Post good advice, don't link your sales pitch. Be honest, right now you sound like a used car salesman.
I do wish you well, whether you believe it or not. Just be straightforward. This isn't the place for a bullion hawker with long green eyes.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Ok, so what's the spread on name-brand silver bars? 10 oz. and 100 oz. Let's just compare. Now, I'm curious. >>
Depends on your dealer and your relationship there.
For me, I can sell 100 ounce bars anywhere from $20 back to spot depending on the customer base on any given day.
I can buy at $20 over to spot or less than spot on 100 ouncers, again depending on the dealer's stock. Usually, I'll pay $15-20 over spot.
10 Ounce bars vary greatly, I can buy at $10 over, maybe at $20 tops if he's overstocked and I've got money to invest.
If he's loaded down then I can buy at $10 over spot. I only sell when he's looking for stuff for customers. I can sell for as low as $20 under up to spot and on occasion I'll get $10 over.
I think for the regular customer, you're looking at a $20 over spot and a buy back at $25-30 under at the extremes on 10 ounce bars.
People who regularly buy 100 ounce bars become preferred customers very quickly.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Deadhorse, you are a metals dealer? and you were never approached with bogus Englehard or JM or any other privately minted bars, rounds or ingots? lucky you.
this is turning out to be a great thread and i will have to consider saving for a 100 ounce bar from the big two. if not a 100 ounce, at least a 10 ounce.
Granted, it takes much longer to accumulate, and you can do it only on a very small scale, but I prefer 40% silver halves... you can get them for face value if you look hard enough. No issues with buying or selling them at too high or too low of a price.
Forgive me, for I am quite stupid. But if "I can buy at $20 over to spot or less than spot on 100 ouncers, again depending on the dealer's stock. Usually, I'll pay $15-20 over spot." and "10 Ounce bars vary greatly, I can buy at $10 over, maybe at $20 tops if he's overstocked and I've got money to invest." Then why would "People who regularly buy 100 ounce bars become preferred customers very quickly." If the dealer is getting roughly the same dollar mark-up for ten and 100 ounce bars, why should he prefer the 100 ounce bar customer? Because it makes him feel important and forget his way under one ounce God-given equipment? If I were a dealer, which I am not, I would rather a customer pay ten dollars over spot for each of five ten ounce bars than twenty over spot for a hundred ounce bar. Again, I am not very smart so please explain this to me. Thanks!
Deadhorse, I always enjoy a good debate, so I'll post your comments and my responses.
You wrote: You just lost about 10 points in the believability scale. "There might be nothing wrong with your Englehards or your JM bars". Might be?? You know good and well there is NOTHING WRONG with them. My buyer? Well, I have a choice of 5 within short driving distance. The buyer will never question the authenticity since most are in sealed bags, wired with a lead stamp from the seller. You've got to be kidding!
My response: Over the years, I have covered plenty of news stories about counterfeit rounds. I have interviewed many dealers who won't touch private rounds.
You wrote: Silver isn't going to crash to 79 cents, get real. Look around at the real world before you come back with that limp nonsense. You know better than that. In fact, you'd better head for the hills should that happen. I won't have people who want to hang me in public. Can you say the same?
My response: Agreed. I doubt silver will ever see 79-cents again. I wrote that to point out that silver coinage of the US Govt will always have a face value, a commercial value, while privately minted bars and rounds will not have that security. End of discussion on this one.
You wrote: Come on now...... you can promote whatever fuels your wallet, but when someone as knowledgeable comes along and shoots a few holes in your tent, don't try that weak stuff. Don't even bring that game into my house. I can promise you that you will get quite a few hits to your site from Houston tomorrow, if not already tonight. This thread, actually your posts are already getting a bit of play. We're having a bit of fun via the phone tonight. I expect more tomorrow. I am trying to give you all due respect, but you are making it difficult.
My response: Well, I hope you enjoyed writing that. I don't know what to say? I'm not selling any metals or coins. I'm not a metals dealer selling bars or rounds from private mints.
You wrote: I am honestly out of words here. I've shot down your nonsense about 10% over spot on 90% and Silver Eagles and you know it good and well.
My response: Please reread my original post. I said that a price of 10% above the silver content of junk silver and 10% over the silver content of ASE is still 10% above the price of the silver... the markup is the same over the metal content in either medium. What is so difficult with that concept? Let me go one further, a markup of 10% over the price of silver in your privately minted silver is also the same 10% markup. The issue, I think, is not the markup (ten percent is ten percent) but the issue is the market acceptability of the silver you are trying to sell. I think junk silver coins and American Eagles are more acceptable in the market than any privately minted rounds or bars. That's my opinion. If you beleive privately minted bars and rounds are as acceptable or more acceptable, go ahead and put your money where your mouth is. By the way, how do you test for shaved bars?
You wrote: Sheesh! You make me think anyone can write a column. I write weekly on a basketball site for pure pleasure. Maybe I should send in a few to various investment sites. Something tells me Alan Mendelson just might be one of my topics. Forget your lawyers, truth will out! I'm sorry to say this, but you have been giving people less than good advice on precious metals and that's just the bottom line. You know good and well that Englehard is the premier of silver bars and J&M is a close, if not equal, second. You know they can be bought at 20-35 cents over spot from honest dealers. You know good and well that beats the heck out of 90% coins and ASEs, particularly at 10% over spot as you promote. How is it that I've NEVER paid over spot for either and have all the offers I can handle? I've even told people in PMs to stay away from Sunshine. I know the back of spot prices and I'm fairly certain you do too. I'm exhausted. Post good advice, don't link your sales pitch. Be honest, right now you sound like a used car salesman. I do wish you well, whether you believe it or not. Just be straightforward. This isn't the place for a bullion hawker with long green eyes.
My response: Hold on, fella! You're saying things I never said, including those comments about pricing on the privately minted bars and rounds. I've been around in the media a long time, and I welcome all of your public comments. I sign my real name to all of my posts here, and that's my face on TV.
This discussion is unnecessarily being made overly complicated. The issue isn't how much over or under spot each type of silver can be bought or sold for. The issue is the dealer's spread between the buy and sell prices. That is expressed in percent, not cents over or under spot.
90% Silver is usually discounted, and Silver Eagles sell at a premium over spot both when buying and selling. Based on Deadhorse's comments, quality silver bars also sell at a premium over spot. So, there is no inherent net advantage in either case just because the coins or (bars) are being sold at a discount or a premium, unless you have a preference (and I do, for my own reasons).
The point of this discussion is whether one of these investments is better, or not. It's clear that all 3 - 90% coins, Silver Eagles, and silver bars can be bought or sold readily - so that's not the issue. For me, if the spread is 2.5% on 90% silver, and 2.8% on 10 oz. silver bars, that makes 90% a better investment at the moment.
It's been pointed out that the spread will change when the market changes. The spreads always change when the market goes up, and they change when the market goes down. Therefore, when buying strictly for investment, it behooves one to check the spreads in each case before buying.
Whenever I transact a silver deal, I ask the dealer what his buy/sell spread is. I do not tell him whether I am buying or selling, because once he knows that, he can prepare his sob story for why he is gouging you unnecessarily. Alternatively, I might ask him what he is buying silver bars for, and then ask him what he is selling them for. It helps to get an honest response, in my opinion.
There are other reasons to prefer one type of silver over the other, than just the spread alone. I prefer the 90% silver and Silver Eagles primarily on the basis of them being universally recognizable and available in smaller increments. At some point, they might be more tradeable if necessary.
I don't like silver bars particularly, although I've owned them. The two coin dealers where I live would chisel about an extra 10%-15% off the proceeds just because they can, and driving 100 miles to sell a 100 oz. bar might not net me much savings either. Yeah, I get the industrial user view, but I still don't think I could drop a 100 ozer onto the countertop at a local retailer in a pinch. But that's just me.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
well.....I never thought when I first posted my question that this thread would grow into this...
It is great to read everyones experiences with silver buying, hoarding, selling.....
My personal experiences have been.....
In my area.....coin shops/metal dealers/jewelers....are hesitant to buy most silver rounds and bars...the larger the bars...the more hesitant.....theie reasons are their own....but since I have to deal with them...I have to take this in account....I don't want to drive 100 miles (200 round trip) to DC to sell a 100 oz bar....
I will not buy any silver eagles that have high premiums..as I stated before....I try to get the ones that collectors do not want (they want-high grade MS) and will pick up ugly/dinged/marked/handled silver eagles priced just at melt or a few pennies above...the dealers seem to be glad to get rid of these ugly ones. It is amazing the amount of silver eagles that are given to kids, teenagers, as corporate and advertising gifts..that get tossed around, dinged up and mangled, that make it back to coin shops...I like these
90% silver....if you keep your eyes and ears open, much can be obtained, many times at face...sometimes at low multiples to face....have put away much this way....
Personally I think I will continue on the path that has worked for me for the past 20 years.....but am eager to read what others post about their observations.....
Never thought this thread could make it to 100.....it still has an outside chance...
<< <i>Deadhorse, you are a metals dealer? and you were never approached with bogus Englehard or JM or any other privately minted bars, rounds or ingots? lucky you.
Privately minted/poured stuff? Yes, of course. That's why I say stick to J&M and Englehard. I have no problem with A-Mark or Sunshine either, but I know they get discounted heavily when you are selling them. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I don't make the rules.
No, I've never been approached with bogus Englehard or J&Ms and have only seen the one I mentioned earlier. Only one in my life. Maybe I am lucky, I don't know. I keep a low profile, I'm just a little guy in the big picture.
I've also had the industrial silver trick tied on me several times as well. Once you know the difference it's easy to determine but I'm betting the average guy wouldn't have a clue and may have never even heard of it before I mentioned it in this thread.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Forgive me, for I am quite stupid. But if "I can buy at $20 over to spot or less than spot on 100 ouncers, again depending on the dealer's stock. Usually, I'll pay $15-20 over spot." and "10 Ounce bars vary greatly, I can buy at $10 over, maybe at $20 tops if he's overstocked and I've got money to invest." Then why would "People who regularly buy 100 ounce bars become preferred customers very quickly." If the dealer is getting roughly the same dollar mark-up for ten and 100 ounce bars, why should he prefer the 100 ounce bar customer? Because it makes him feel important and forget his way under one ounce God-given equipment? If I were a dealer, which I am not, I would rather a customer pay ten dollars over spot for each of five ten ounce bars than twenty over spot for a hundred ounce bar. Again, I am not very smart so please explain this to me. Thanks! >>
"maybe at $20 tops if he's overstocked and I've got money to invest" That should have read understocked, my bad there.
I've found that dealers are dealers, all they want is the quick flip and they don't really care all that much what the product is. Kind of like a bookie who doesn't care who wins, he just wants his cut on both sides of the equation. Long, long ago I used to buy 10 once bars, my thinking was fuzzy in the beginning. I figured they were more fungible and it was less out of my pocket initially. Once I discovered I could pay far less per ounce with 100 ounce bars and that they were just as fungible, I've rarely bought a ten ounce bar for anything over spot. Now I will buy ten of them if the price is the same as I'd pay for a 100 ouncer. Sometimes that means I'm only paying $1 over spot per 10 oz. bar, or 10 cents over spot per ounce. I do the same thing if it's brand name 1 ounce rounds, I'll buy 100 of them, but only at the 100 ounce bar rate. Granted, I'm getting a much better deal than the average walk-in customer, but I do a lot of volume and sometimes if they need something for a customer, they know they can call me and I'll deliver in an hour or two. I don't even want to be paid, I'll just let them replace them later. That sort of thing happens when a particular customer wants Pandas only or the various Australian zodiac coins, roosters and such.
There are some dealers who do try to mark up larger bars, they don't last long. We have a B&M shop or two go out of business every year here in Houston and they are always new guys with the higher markups. One just went under a couple of months ago and he had a high profile/high traffic location. It's a very competitive business, at least in a large city.
I understand your logic, but it just doesn't work that way.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Comments
<< <i>For a few dollars more, you can buy rolls of Washingtons.
---
heh, i just did. a roll of nice XF for 88 dollars three days ago :-)
I am now considering a wash album and use the dupes in the roll.
at the rate i am going i will have an album for every later silver series
in a few years. (of course no keys). >>
If you go for keys, buy the slabbed PCGS ones. If PCGS slabs aren't available, NGC will suffice. Hold those rolls as well. Silver should rise with other commodities as third world countries continue to grow and prosper into modernity. Just MHO though.
<< <i>---deadhorse, could you help me understand why a person would say
90% silver would carry a 25% premium before the year 2000 and
could the same thing happen again? I am assuming it is due to
the nature of being easy to divide it into smaller size lots...?
thanks >>
Well...... you had me stumped there for a bit as I had a hard time following that line of reasoning. I was nearly 100% certain that no such thing ever happened.
Anyway, I just made a call to a good friend of mine. He is the largest broker/dealer in precious metals in Southeast Texas. I caught him on his cell phone as he was plugging along in traffic on the way home. He enjoyed the good laugh. While I was certain that no such thing ever occurred; that being a 25% premium on 90% coins, prior to 2000, I decided to call in a real expert who's been doing this through his B&M shop here in Houston since forever. Basically his entire life. The shop has been around since the 50s and he took over in 1969. This last few weeks everything is flying out of his store, He might have 300 oz. of gold at 10AM and be sold out by 2PM. Same is true for silver, both 90% and .999 The bags of 90% I brought in today were already sold before I left the store 30 minutes later.
90% silver never carried a 25% premium prior to 2000 or anytime in our lifetimes. I've noticed small differences across the nation over the years, but they never last long and they are always only a few percent.
I can see that a lot of people would like to deal in smaller lots and I do understand that sort of thinking process. There's something to be said for it as well, depending on one's financial position. However, I can find no evidence that such a thing ever took place.
I'm willing to be educated here, nobody knows it all. However, I can't see it ever happening in the future, short of an "Apocalypse Now" scenario. In that case, food, water, shelter and brass jacketed lead might indeed have the greatest value of all. Small value US coins would have accepted value in that case, no argument here. Maybe that's why a keep a few bags around, the ones I bought at 3 and 3.5X face years and years ago.
Sorry, I probably didn't give you the answer you were looking for, but I can't find any evidence that it ever happened.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Not to change the subject, but I I love Canadian Maple Leaves for the long term. $5 face value, which now is more that $5 USD, and they are more pure than the Eagles that have a $1 face value. I hope it never comes to the point where face value is more than silver value, but if it does, the Canadians get there first.
Tulving's current spread is about 2.5% at today's prices.
I knew it would happen.
there might be nothing wrong with your Englehards or your JM bars... but when it comes time to sell, suppose the "buyer" questions the authenticity? what are you going to do, swear on a stack of bibles?
now, suppose the price of silver crashes to 79-cents an ounce. can you spend your Englehards and JMs at the supermarket?
cheers, Alan Mendelson
www.BestDealsTVshow.com
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
<< <i>Not to change the subject, but I I love Canadian Maple Leaves for the long term. $5 face value, which now is more that $5 USD, and they are more pure than the Eagles that have a $1 face value. I hope it never comes to the point where face value is more than silver value, but if it does, the Canadians get there first. >>
With all due respect, the difference in .999 and .9999 is nothing. Both contain one ounce.
I've never understood the nonsense behind the .9999 Buffalos. People pay stupid money for the same amount of gold.
Given the foolish prices paid for .9999, I'll stick to American Eagles. An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold.
It's only in our very recent lifetimes that the difference between .999 and .9999 has become a factor. Such refinery wasn't even available only a few years ago and it makes no difference in the bigger picture.
I've actually had a guy offer me five .999 gold Eagles for four .9999 Buffalos. At first I didn't take him seriously. I worked a deal with my broker and took the guy for an ounce of gold that ended up costing me only $100
What a screw up, and he was happy about it. Sorry, JMO as a metals trader. First time I ever bought the .9999s and probably the last unless I come across another sucker.
BTW, I've got sheets and sheet of Maple leafs, still sealed, but I bought them at the right price, less than spot from a guy with weak knees. .999 or .9999 makes no difference at all.
Just a marketing scheme. P.T. Barnum must be proud.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>deadhorse wrote: "100 ounce Englehards cost way, way less than 10% over melt and please educate the unwashed masses how there are problems with Englehard or J&M bars."
there might be nothing wrong with your Englehards or your JM bars... but when it comes time to sell, suppose the "buyer" questions the authenticity? what are you going to do, swear on a stack of bibles?
now, suppose the price of silver crashes to 79-cents an ounce. can you spend your Englehards and JMs at the supermarket?
cheers, Alan Mendelson
www.BestDealsTVshow.com >>
Holy Cow!!
You just lost about 10 points in the believability scale. "There might be nothing wrong with your Englehards or your JM bars". Might be?? You know good and well there is NOTHING WRONG with them. My buyer? Well, I have a choice of 5 within short driving distance. The buyer will never question the authenticity since most are in sealed bags, wired with a lead stamp from the seller. You've got to be kidding!
Silver isn't going to crash to 79 cents, get real. Look around at the real world before you come back with that limp nonsense. You know better than that. In fact, you'd better head for the hills should that happen. I won't have people who want to hang me in public. Can you say the same?
Come on now...... you can promote whatever fuels your wallet, but when someone as knowledgeable comes along and shoots a few holes in your tent, don't try that weak stuff. Don't even bring that game into my house.
I can promise you that you will get quite a few hits to your site from Houston tomorrow, if not already tonight. This thread, actually your posts are already getting a bit of play. We're having a bit of fun via the phone tonight. I expect more tomorrow.
I am trying to give you all due respect, but you are making it difficult.
I am honestly out of words here. I've shot down your nonsense about 10% over spot on 90% and Silver Eagles and you know it good and well.
I'm betting you are promoting one thing and stocking up on just what I am telling everyone here. I've got no agenda. I'm not trying to sell anything. I am, however, giving out solid advice, advice you cannot refute except by offering absolutely absurd arguments.
79 cents?? Want to place a wager on that?
Come on, you are free to do your thing and that's sell at over spot with your sales pitch. I stand behind the facts and the trends and I sell nothing. I will, however, buy any and all at a fair price. For you, please sell me all your silver at 79 cents. I'll wire you as much as you can handle tomorrow.
Let's just get real here. You've got an agenda to promote that makes you $$. I've shot holes in it on this forum and perhaps cost you a few customers, sorry, I won't apologize for telling the truth.
Here's a truth you won't like, but it's a fact. B&M shops would much rather buy .999 bars than 90%, they have to do both to stay competitive, but they'd rather deal in pure bullion. You know it, you don't like it, but you know it's true.
I have no desire to pick a personal fight, it's not my nature. But I will NEVER let bad advice on bullion, silver in particular, stand.
I'd suggest you seek customers and place your links elsewhere as I won't allow bad advice to go unchallenged. I have no website, I'm simply an incorporated bullion dealer, it's one of three companies I own, and this site attracts new folks, many of them newbies. I happen to be a believer in truth and want all to do well. Paying 10% over spot will not do them well.
Sheesh! You make me think anyone can write a column. I write weekly on a basketball site for pure pleasure. Maybe I should send in a few to various investment sites. Something tells me Alan Mendelson just might be one of my topics. Forget your lawyers, truth will out!
I'm sorry to say this, but you have been giving people less than good advice on precious metals and that's just the bottom line.
You know good and well that Englehard is the premier of silver bars and J&M is a close, if not equal, second. You know they can be bought at 20-35 cents over spot from honest dealers. You know good and well that beats the heck out of 90% coins and ASEs, particularly at 10% over spot as you promote. How is it that I've NEVER paid over spot for either and have all the offers I can handle? I've even told people in PMs to stay away from Sunshine. I know the back of spot prices and I'm fairly certain you do too.
I'm exhausted. Post good advice, don't link your sales pitch. Be honest, right now you sound like a used car salesman.
I do wish you well, whether you believe it or not. Just be straightforward. This isn't the place for a bullion hawker with long green eyes.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Added: and 1 ozers in quantities of 50 or 100, too. Might as well get the whole story.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Ok, so what's the spread on name-brand silver bars? 10 oz. and 100 oz. Let's just compare. Now, I'm curious. >>
Depends on your dealer and your relationship there.
For me, I can sell 100 ounce bars anywhere from $20 back to spot depending on the customer base on any given day.
I can buy at $20 over to spot or less than spot on 100 ouncers, again depending on the dealer's stock. Usually, I'll pay $15-20 over spot.
10 Ounce bars vary greatly, I can buy at $10 over, maybe at $20 tops if he's overstocked and I've got money to invest.
If he's loaded down then I can buy at $10 over spot. I only sell when he's looking for stuff for customers. I can sell for as low as $20 under up to spot and on occasion I'll get $10 over.
I think for the regular customer, you're looking at a $20 over spot and a buy back at $25-30 under at the extremes on 10 ounce bars.
People who regularly buy 100 ounce bars become preferred customers very quickly.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
cheers, Alan Mendelson
www.BestDealsTVshow.com
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
saving for a 100 ounce bar from the big two.
if not a 100 ounce, at least a 10 ounce.
. . . ie. as a matter of "when, not if".
and
"10 Ounce bars vary greatly, I can buy at $10 over, maybe at $20 tops if he's overstocked and I've got money to invest."
Then why would "People who regularly buy 100 ounce bars become preferred customers very quickly."
If the dealer is getting roughly the same dollar mark-up for ten and 100 ounce bars, why should he prefer the 100 ounce bar customer? Because it makes him feel important and forget his way under one ounce God-given equipment?
If I were a dealer, which I am not, I would rather a customer pay ten dollars over spot for each of five ten ounce bars than twenty over spot for a hundred ounce bar.
Again, I am not very smart so please explain this to me. Thanks!
You wrote: You just lost about 10 points in the believability scale. "There might be nothing wrong with your Englehards or your JM bars". Might be?? You know good and well there is NOTHING WRONG with them. My buyer? Well, I have a choice of 5 within short driving distance. The buyer will never question the authenticity since most are in sealed bags, wired with a lead stamp from the seller. You've got to be kidding!
My response: Over the years, I have covered plenty of news stories about counterfeit rounds. I have interviewed many dealers who won't touch private rounds.
You wrote: Silver isn't going to crash to 79 cents, get real. Look around at the real world before you come back with that limp nonsense. You know better than that. In fact, you'd better head for the hills should that happen. I won't have people who want to hang me in public. Can you say the same?
My response: Agreed. I doubt silver will ever see 79-cents again. I wrote that to point out that silver coinage of the US Govt will always have a face value, a commercial value, while privately minted bars and rounds will not have that security. End of discussion on this one.
You wrote: Come on now...... you can promote whatever fuels your wallet, but when someone as knowledgeable comes along and shoots a few holes in your tent, don't try that weak stuff. Don't even bring that game into my house. I can promise you that you will get quite a few hits to your site from Houston tomorrow, if not already tonight. This thread, actually your posts are already getting a bit of play. We're having a bit of fun via the phone tonight. I expect more tomorrow. I am trying to give you all due respect, but you are making it difficult.
My response: Well, I hope you enjoyed writing that. I don't know what to say? I'm not selling any metals or coins. I'm not a metals dealer selling bars or rounds from private mints.
You wrote: I am honestly out of words here. I've shot down your nonsense about 10% over spot on 90% and Silver Eagles and you know it good and well.
My response: Please reread my original post. I said that a price of 10% above the silver content of junk silver and 10% over the silver content of ASE is still 10% above the price of the silver... the markup is the same over the metal content in either medium. What is so difficult with that concept? Let me go one further, a markup of 10% over the price of silver in your privately minted silver is also the same 10% markup. The issue, I think, is not the markup (ten percent is ten percent) but the issue is the market acceptability of the silver you are trying to sell. I think junk silver coins and American Eagles are more acceptable in the market than any privately minted rounds or bars. That's my opinion. If you beleive privately minted bars and rounds are as acceptable or more acceptable, go ahead and put your money where your mouth is. By the way, how do you test for shaved bars?
You wrote: Sheesh! You make me think anyone can write a column. I write weekly on a basketball site for pure pleasure. Maybe I should send in a few to various investment sites. Something tells me Alan Mendelson just might be one of my topics. Forget your lawyers, truth will out!
I'm sorry to say this, but you have been giving people less than good advice on precious metals and that's just the bottom line.
You know good and well that Englehard is the premier of silver bars and J&M is a close, if not equal, second. You know they can be bought at 20-35 cents over spot from honest dealers. You know good and well that beats the heck out of 90% coins and ASEs, particularly at 10% over spot as you promote. How is it that I've NEVER paid over spot for either and have all the offers I can handle? I've even told people in PMs to stay away from Sunshine. I know the back of spot prices and I'm fairly certain you do too.
I'm exhausted. Post good advice, don't link your sales pitch. Be honest, right now you sound like a used car salesman.
I do wish you well, whether you believe it or not. Just be straightforward. This isn't the place for a bullion hawker with long green eyes.
My response: Hold on, fella! You're saying things I never said, including those comments about pricing on the privately minted bars and rounds. I've been around in the media a long time, and I welcome all of your public comments. I sign my real name to all of my posts here, and that's my face on TV.
Best of luck. Alan Mendelson
www.BestDealsTVshow.com
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
90% Silver is usually discounted, and Silver Eagles sell at a premium over spot both when buying and selling. Based on Deadhorse's comments, quality silver bars also sell at a premium over spot. So, there is no inherent net advantage in either case just because the coins or (bars) are being sold at a discount or a premium, unless you have a preference (and I do, for my own reasons).
The point of this discussion is whether one of these investments is better, or not. It's clear that all 3 - 90% coins, Silver Eagles, and silver bars can be bought or sold readily - so that's not the issue. For me, if the spread is 2.5% on 90% silver, and 2.8% on 10 oz. silver bars, that makes 90% a better investment at the moment.
It's been pointed out that the spread will change when the market changes. The spreads always change when the market goes up, and they change when the market goes down. Therefore, when buying strictly for investment, it behooves one to check the spreads in each case before buying.
Whenever I transact a silver deal, I ask the dealer what his buy/sell spread is. I do not tell him whether I am buying or selling, because once he knows that, he can prepare his sob story for why he is gouging you unnecessarily. Alternatively, I might ask him what he is buying silver bars for, and then ask him what he is selling them for. It helps to get an honest response, in my opinion.
There are other reasons to prefer one type of silver over the other, than just the spread alone. I prefer the 90% silver and Silver Eagles primarily on the basis of them being universally recognizable and available in smaller increments. At some point, they might be more tradeable if necessary.
I don't like silver bars particularly, although I've owned them. The two coin dealers where I live would chisel about an extra 10%-15% off the proceeds just because they can, and driving 100 miles to sell a 100 oz. bar might not net me much savings either. Yeah, I get the industrial user view, but I still don't think I could drop a 100 ozer onto the countertop at a local retailer in a pinch. But that's just me.
I knew it would happen.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
It is great to read everyones experiences with silver buying, hoarding, selling.....
My personal experiences have been.....
In my area.....coin shops/metal dealers/jewelers....are hesitant to buy most silver rounds and bars...the larger the bars...the more hesitant.....theie reasons are their own....but since I have to deal with them...I have to take this in account....I don't want to drive 100 miles (200 round trip) to DC to sell a 100 oz bar....
I will not buy any silver eagles that have high premiums..as I stated before....I try to get the ones that collectors do not want (they want-high grade MS) and will pick up ugly/dinged/marked/handled silver eagles priced just at melt or a few pennies above...the dealers seem to be glad to get rid of these ugly ones. It is amazing the amount of silver eagles that are given to kids, teenagers, as corporate and advertising gifts..that get tossed around, dinged up and mangled, that make it back to coin shops...I like these
90% silver....if you keep your eyes and ears open, much can be obtained, many times at face...sometimes at low multiples to face....have put away much this way....
Personally I think I will continue on the path that has worked for me for the past 20 years.....but am eager to read what others post about their observations.....
Never thought this thread could make it to 100.....it still has an outside chance...
Thanks again,
rah1959
<< <i>Deadhorse, you are a metals dealer? and you were never approached with bogus Englehard or JM or any other privately minted bars, rounds or ingots? lucky you.
cheers, Alan Mendelson
www.BestDealsTVshow.com >>
Privately minted/poured stuff? Yes, of course. That's why I say stick to J&M and Englehard. I have no problem with A-Mark or Sunshine either, but I know they get discounted heavily when you are selling them. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I don't make the rules.
No, I've never been approached with bogus Englehard or J&Ms and have only seen the one I mentioned earlier. Only one in my life. Maybe I am lucky, I don't know. I keep a low profile, I'm just a little guy in the big picture.
I've also had the industrial silver trick tied on me several times as well. Once you know the difference it's easy to determine but I'm betting the average guy wouldn't have a clue and may have never even heard of it before I mentioned it in this thread.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Forgive me, for I am quite stupid. But if "I can buy at $20 over to spot or less than spot on 100 ouncers, again depending on the dealer's stock. Usually, I'll pay $15-20 over spot."
and
"10 Ounce bars vary greatly, I can buy at $10 over, maybe at $20 tops if he's overstocked and I've got money to invest."
Then why would "People who regularly buy 100 ounce bars become preferred customers very quickly."
If the dealer is getting roughly the same dollar mark-up for ten and 100 ounce bars, why should he prefer the 100 ounce bar customer? Because it makes him feel important and forget his way under one ounce God-given equipment?
If I were a dealer, which I am not, I would rather a customer pay ten dollars over spot for each of five ten ounce bars than twenty over spot for a hundred ounce bar.
Again, I am not very smart so please explain this to me. Thanks! >>
"maybe at $20 tops if he's overstocked and I've got money to invest" That should have read understocked, my bad there.
I've found that dealers are dealers, all they want is the quick flip and they don't really care all that much what the product is. Kind of like a bookie who doesn't care who wins, he just wants his cut on both sides of the equation. Long, long ago I used to buy 10 once bars, my thinking was fuzzy in the beginning. I figured they were more fungible and it was less out of my pocket initially. Once I discovered I could pay far less per ounce with 100 ounce bars and that they were just as fungible, I've rarely bought a ten ounce bar for anything over spot. Now I will buy ten of them if the price is the same as I'd pay for a 100 ouncer. Sometimes that means I'm only paying $1 over spot per 10 oz. bar, or 10 cents over spot per ounce. I do the same thing if it's brand name 1 ounce rounds, I'll buy 100 of them, but only at the 100 ounce bar rate.
Granted, I'm getting a much better deal than the average walk-in customer, but I do a lot of volume and sometimes if they need something for a customer, they know they can call me and I'll deliver in an hour or two. I don't even want to be paid, I'll just let them replace them later. That sort of thing happens when a particular customer wants Pandas only or the various Australian zodiac coins, roosters and such.
There are some dealers who do try to mark up larger bars, they don't last long. We have a B&M shop or two go out of business every year here in Houston and they are always new guys with the higher markups. One just went under a couple of months ago and he had a high profile/high traffic location. It's a very competitive business, at least in a large city.
I understand your logic, but it just doesn't work that way.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff