4 SC is at it again. Is this sorry or not?
RonBurgundy
Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
A friend of mine buys a lot identical to this one (see link below) from 4SC on Ebay. He gets the cards, and the condition is fine but the lot is so heavy on dupes it's ridiculous. A grand total of 49 different cards out of the 500 card lot. 49 different. He writes them politely and tells them he wants a refund; they refuse. Prior to buying the lot, my friend emailed them to ask them for a listing of the cards. They never responded, but he bought them anyway based on their feedback.
My question is, is this sorry on their part? I think it is. They are a major seller on Ebay and I think 1) if the lot is that heavy on dupes, they should say so; and 2) (and most important), if the buyer wants a refund due to lack of satisfaction, they should get it. NOTE: I am not asking whether it was smart to purchase the lot from them or not. That's an entirely different issue.
Shame on you 4SC. Dump your crap on Ebay if you must, but at least treat your customers fairly.
Ron
1972 Topps Lot
My question is, is this sorry on their part? I think it is. They are a major seller on Ebay and I think 1) if the lot is that heavy on dupes, they should say so; and 2) (and most important), if the buyer wants a refund due to lack of satisfaction, they should get it. NOTE: I am not asking whether it was smart to purchase the lot from them or not. That's an entirely different issue.
Shame on you 4SC. Dump your crap on Ebay if you must, but at least treat your customers fairly.
Ron
1972 Topps Lot
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
0
Comments
But I think that this was dishonest and the seller should offer a refund.
BUT... I wouldnt have bought it in the first place without knowing the dupe percentage.
This situation sucks, but I would not have purchased the lot without hearing back from the seller first.
I agree, I probably would not have bought the lot either but to not offer a refund is ri-gosh-darn-diculous.
You expect this stuff from 2-bit jokes on Ebay, not from one of the biggest sellers out there. Well, actually I can think of another major seller on Ebay who is peddling fraudulent stuff but I'm not going there.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>He corrected the link. >>
I see it is newengland and yes I believe they are the same.
Sweet Morsels Toffee and Chocolates
<< <i>They are a major seller on Ebay and I think 1) if the lot is that heavy on dupes, they should say so; >>
No question about it Ron, there needs to be at least a mention of the duplication..... To me the buyer has a potential claim as the item not as described.
I know there has been many thread on here about New England Sports cards and how they are a dumping ground from all of 4SC's stuff.
They buy a bunch of raw cards, if they aren't worth grading, they put them on NESC to get rid of them to save their 4SC reputation
Most people only make the mistake of buying raw from NESC once, i know I have
Edited to say: Sorry Shag, i see it took you 3 or 4 times to figure out not to buy from them
The Buyer should have passed without getting a response.
The 4SC should disclose that 90% of the cards are dupes in the auction... Shame on 4SC for refusing a refund and piss-poor customer service. They should know better.
I agree. No response to the email should tell you something.
Is it bad customer service? Of course but to me this is on the buyer. It's a vague description yes but it is 100% accurate; 500 NM 1972 cards.
Having said all that, thanks Ron for posting this as it's a good reminder to NEVER buy from newengland since they are the dumping ground for non-gradeable cards.
A seller assumes risk by accepting returns on large lots of raw cards.....many buyers will cherry pick the lot, fill in the holes with lower grade or valued cards and return the cards for a refund. Again, if the buyer got the correct cards in the stated condition....a refund is not warranted.
Also, I don't accept returns on graded cards unless I mail out the wrong card, the slab is damaged during shipping or the auction description was incorrect. Plain and simple....way to many people speculate on modern cards and attempt a return if the price drops.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Just chiming in in agreement with everybody else. New England is 4SC 's dumping ground for Non Gradeable Sports and Non Sports. Made the mistake Twice. Never Again !!!!!!!
Neil
<< <i>
LOL Looks like the bus is getting fuller.
Nothing malicious intended, I don't belong on this bus but there are many other short busses I frequent.
They have no return policy and dont answer emails
C'mon people
"..........many buyers will cherry pick the lot, filling in the holes with lower grade...."
"MANY" buyers? Where did you get this information from? From personal
experience?
As a seller, YOU have a responsibility to accurately describe a lot and if you DON'T,
you SHOULD refund.
While I don't have a personal experience of "MANY" switching cards, I would say
you are a little off base here with the word "MANY".
<< <i>mchuckwagon..............
"..........many buyers will cherry pick the lot, filling in the holes with lower grade...."
"MANY" buyers? Where did you get this information from? From personal
experience?
As a seller, YOU have a responsibility to accurately describe a lot and if you DON'T,
you SHOULD refund.
While I don't have a personal experience of "MANY" switching cards, I would say
you are a little off base here with the word "MANY". >>
For starters, I just posted a quick response....and didn't pick and choose each word with the intent of having my response stand up to such a high level of word-by-word scrutiny.
How about this.....
"..........there are some buyers who will cherry pick the lot, filling in the holes with lower grade...."
Second, I agree the seller should describe the lot in more detail and respond to questions from buyers. However, the buyer does admit to purchasing the lot without receiving a response. In this instance, it would appear both the buyer and seller are to blame.
I can determine from a great many factors whether or not it's a good idea to buy from a particular seller. Anyone else with half a brain can do the same. If I decide to buy from a seller, I assume a certain amount of risk. I don't want a pity party if the deal goes badly for me.
But what about if the deal goes well? How come there aren't 1000 posts about all the deals where we all take a chance and buy a card or a lot from a suspect seller and the deal goes perfectly fine? If this was an honest discussion, people would be condemning those sellers as well. But instead, people are being totally results-based in their complaints. Do you hate all sellers who don't fully disclose every little detail or do you just hate NESC?!? Because if you hate ALL of the sellers who operate the way NESC does, you're going to spend a lot of your life being upset and writing posts about crappy Ebay sellers. NESC sucks but they are certainly not the only ones.
As an aside...how many of these so-called "bad deals" involve a buyer whose greed is blinding him/her from looking at the seller objectively and determining whether or not the purchase is really worth the risk?
so many sour grapes....
For more on this, check out the last 4-5 pages of the 1972 Topps thread in the PSA Set Registry forum.
Original auction: 72 T Foli IA #1
Current auction: 72 T Foli IA #2
All-time favorite athletes:
Steve Sax, Steve Garvey, Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Andre Agassi, Karch Kiraly, Wayne Gretzky, Ichiro Suzuki, Andres Galarraga, Greg Maddux.
"Make the world a better place... punch both A-Rods in the face (Alex Rodriguez and Andy Roddick)!"
people switching cards? Or....who told you "many" or "some" people are
switching cards?
If people are switching cards, I would like to know.
I have not had anyone switch cards on me in ALL of the dealings I have
had on here, nor on ebaY.
I'm just trying to find out how many ("MANY or "SOME" or any other word you
want to use in this case) we are talking about that you have
KNOWLEDGE of? That's all I want to know.
Can it happen? Yes, it can. It has not happened to me or anyone I know.
You made the statement, not me. I just want to hear of the experiences you
KNOW OF so I can learn. That's it.
<< <i>Hmmm... I think what you're missing here is that 4SC has been pulling this kind of crap (and worse) for a long time. Being vague about the description is bad enough (and something I would never do as a seller), but check this out... >>
I agree with you!! I agree with all of you!!
I agree that NESC/4SC have horrible customer service. HORRIBLE!!!
But to me, there is a huge difference between having horrible customer service and being a criminal. The folks who run crappy, vague auctions should be run out of business for sure. That's why people need to put their greed aside and NOT BUY FROM THEM!!!
If a seller doesn't sell you a card because you got it too cheap, I feel like you have a case. If they try to resell that card, can't you alert Ebay to the scam? See...that scenario seems very clear cut to me. An agreement was reached and one side got hosed. There is a case there for sure.
But if you buy a lot of 1972 cards and you are upset because there were lots of dupes, how is that comparable? If the auction said "no dupes", you have a case. But it didn't say that. It said nothing. The buyer bought cards in auction that specified NOTHING and then got upset when the vague "lot" didn't meet the expectations that their own imagination had mustered up. How does the fault lie anywhere but with the buyer in that instance?
Here's the fundamental difference. I agree that sellers should be held to a higher standard, but I'm not ready to relieve the buyers of ANY responsibility for their bad decisions. The buyers are the lifeblood. The buyers determine EVERYTHING. You want the bad sellers to go away, the buyers should get better at buying...which means being better at identifying crappy sellers and resisting the temptation to get rich quick.
All-time favorite athletes:
Steve Sax, Steve Garvey, Larry Bird, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Andre Agassi, Karch Kiraly, Wayne Gretzky, Ichiro Suzuki, Andres Galarraga, Greg Maddux.
"Make the world a better place... punch both A-Rods in the face (Alex Rodriguez and Andy Roddick)!"
Maybe we should petition for Ebay to include a checkbox in their auction listings for lots where the seller has to clearly define whether or not there are duplicates in the lot? I would think this would be helpful for buyers of lots of things, not just sports cards.
that being said I buy from 4SC all the time, and never had an issues with them, I have never bought from their clearing house account though.
If so, have him file a claim thru them for something like "Not as described".
I find it comical that there are always people willing to stick up for sellers no matter what the circumstances.
<< <i>I find it comical that there are always people willing to stick up for sellers no matter what the circumstances. >>
Sheesh
People will always bid on raw 52 Mantles
People will still bid ridiculous amounts on T206 Wagners found in the attic
People will bid on obvious forgeries of autographs
People will even bid ridiculous amounts when the card description says "I am selling this as a reprint"
Like another poster stated: This isnt like Walmart
Most items sold on ebay have tail light guarantees
The bidder or buyer has to start taking on some responsibilities
Nobody is taking the side of a dishonest seller, but come on.....
WRT to all the posts about buyers having responsibility, I agree. As I said in the original post, the question of whether he should've bought the cards is an entirely different question. But let's say I'm a first time buyer on Ebay. I send him the email asking to see a list of the cards, but get no response. Thinking he's just too busy and also thinking that a reasonable seller would not put together such a heavy dupe lot, I go ahead and buy? Reasonable to think that could occur? Sure.
The point is that sophisticated buyers may not buy, but unsuspecting buyers might for entirely legitimate reasons. Looked at the feedback, looked at the cards, decided it was ok. Never dreamed you'd get 49 different cards out of 500. That's BS as far as I'm concerned.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Yo guys ought to know this by now. Whatever they sell ungraded didn't meet PSA standards to send in--OR THEY WOULD HAVE!!!!
They state explicitely to ask any question. However, the only possible way to recieve an answer is to buy the cards
<< <i>But let's say I'm a first time buyer on Ebay. I send him the email asking to see a list of the cards, but get no response. Thinking he's just too busy and also thinking that a reasonable seller would not put together such a heavy dupe lot, I go ahead and buy?
Never dreamed you'd get 49 different cards out of 500. That's BS as far as I'm concerned. >>
And there it is. At some point, this story turns from a buyer reading the text of an auction to a buyer having to deal with his own imagination.
Hopes and dreams and unfounded expectations, etc......
<< <i>I find it comical that there are always people willing to stick up for sellers no matter what the circumstances. >>
LOL!! How can anyone stick up for ANY seller who doesn't run their auctions EXACTLY the way you'd like them to?!? The NERVE of some people!!!
brilliant.
As if the circumstances described by the OP warrant such a dramatic response!
The seller wasn't very specific at all. That's it! The fact that the seller is known to be scuzzy is not relevant to whether or not this particular bad transaction could've been avoided if the buyer wasn't having delusions of grandeur.
File a claim?!?? Hey....everyone has that right. I can't imagine the buyer has a case, but good luck to him!
I'm pretty sure that Ebay is the arbitor of what the auction rules are. Is there some section in Ebay's rules that I haven't read concerning what specific information needs to be given in sports card lots auctions? I concede that I may have missed those rules when I signed up. If I did, and NESC did something egregiously against the rules in this auction, I'll be the first to say I'm dead wrong. But as far as I can tell, the rules on Ebay are pretty relaxed and NESC played the game within those rules on this auction.
Everyone signed up KNOWING FULL WELL that buyers do not OWE them much of anything as far as specific information or good customer service.
I have no sympathy for the unprepared.
I'm sensing we touched a nerve with you. Why is it that you appear to be condoning the actions of the seller.
You're really all worked up over this for some reason. Fess up. Enlighten us with another long post with lots of capital letters and large words.
Please.
Nowhere in my post did I state that the buyer would win such claim. He can sure try though. He can also attempt a chargeback on his CC if he used that.
Should the buyer have assumed the worst? Hell yes, it's ebay. I always do and I always ask questions when in doubt. When I get no answer, they get no bid from me.
edited to correct spelling
Nice post. Pretty indicative of the customer service you would provide. Fair play and reason apparently aren't a part of your world. I feel sorry for you. By the way, if you know the guys at 4SC or are one of them, give them all a baby arm from us.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Steve
<< <i>Hmmm... I think what you're missing here is that 4SC has been pulling this kind of crap (and worse) for a long time. Being vague about the description is bad enough (and something I would never do as a seller), but check this out. A few months back, a board member and 72 Topps collector found a '72 Topps Tim Foli IA PSA-9 card listed by 4SC with a BIN price of $20. Naturally, he snapped that up quicker than the Redsox lit up the Rockies last night! (that card is probably worth $300-$500). Well, suffice to say, 4SC never delivered him the card, instead resorting to a pack of lies, like "we can't find it", "it's lost in the mail", etc. Finally after about a month, they refunded his payment. Low and behold, about 6 days ago, the card magically appears again on ebay, and of course again being sold by 4SC. It's plainly obvious what went on here... someone at 4SC's had a huge brain fart and listed this card for around SMR value. Instead of owning up to their mistake though, they made a concious decision to lie to the purchaser, wasting his valuable time in the process. Now they have the gaul to relist the thing and try to make a killing... same serial number and everything! This is just complete bullsh1t and it's the reason why so many people hate 4SC and all of their affiliates. Sure, they may not be the only ones doing this type of thing, but that certainly does not excuse it and ABSOLUTELY doesn't mean that people do not have a legitimate beef with their business practices! Frankly, if more people complained to ebay about this crap instead of making excused for it, maybe some of these jackasses would be shut down... or at leat repremanded.
For more on this, check out the last 4-5 pages of the 1972 Topps thread in the PSA Set Registry forum.
Original auction: 72 T Foli IA #1
Current auction: 72 T Foli IA #2 >>
WOW that is some solid evidence !!
1. 75-76 Topps Keith/Jamaal Wilkes in Psa 8+
2. 1971-72 Trio stickers PSA 8+
3. BSKB 1977-78 topps psa 10
Basketball Autos
1992 Courtside Flashback
Action Packed HOF Autos(need elvin hayes,both bill bradley,and the 1st bill walton)
2001 and 2005 Greats of the Game
UD=retro,epic,legends,legendary,generations and chronology
2006 Topps Style 1952 Fan Favorites Autos #/10 (Refractor Autos)
Press Pass Legends
<< <i>The fact that the seller is known to be scuzzy is not relevant to whether or not this particular bad transaction could've been avoided if the buyer wasn't having delusions of grandeur. >>
1) Big words don't impress anyone here, unless your name is Boopotts
2) Having zero duplicates would be "delusions of grandeur".
If there were maybe +/- 25% dupes, I could understand (not agree with, though) your point. But this was 90% dupes without a disclosure.
Beyond piss poor ethics and I would say that about ANY seller, regardless of reputation.
<< <i>I'm not sure why they'd give the guy the runaround on that. It's an obvious mistake and you aren't going to get any seller to honor a mistake of that magnitude. All they had to say is "It was a mistake, Sorry". >>
someone mention the 20 is the SMR, maybe later bidders emailed them, telling them how valuable this card is with buy offers , so then they realized this was a rare card?
1. 75-76 Topps Keith/Jamaal Wilkes in Psa 8+
2. 1971-72 Trio stickers PSA 8+
3. BSKB 1977-78 topps psa 10
Basketball Autos
1992 Courtside Flashback
Action Packed HOF Autos(need elvin hayes,both bill bradley,and the 1st bill walton)
2001 and 2005 Greats of the Game
UD=retro,epic,legends,legendary,generations and chronology
2006 Topps Style 1952 Fan Favorites Autos #/10 (Refractor Autos)
Press Pass Legends
<< <i><< Hmmm... I think what you're missing here is that 4SC has been pulling this kind of crap (and worse) for a long time. Being vague about the description is bad enough (and something I would never do as a seller), but check this out. A few months back, a board member and 72 Topps collector found a '72 Topps Tim Foli IA PSA-9 card listed by 4SC with a BIN price of $20. Naturally, he snapped that up quicker than the Redsox lit up the Rockies last night! (that card is probably worth $300-$500). Well, suffice to say, 4SC never delivered him the card, instead resorting to a pack of lies, like "we can't find it", "it's lost in the mail", etc. Finally after about a month, they refunded his payment. Low and behold, about 6 days ago, the card magically appears again on ebay, and of course again being sold by 4SC. It's plainly obvious what went on here... someone at 4SC's had a huge brain fart and listed this card for around SMR value. Instead of owning up to their mistake though, they made a concious decision to lie to the purchaser, wasting his valuable time in the process. Now they have the gaul to relist the thing and try to make a killing... same serial number and everything! This is just complete bullsh1t and it's the reason why so many people hate 4SC and all of their affiliates. Sure, they may not be the only ones doing this type of thing, but that certainly does not excuse it and ABSOLUTELY doesn't mean that people do not have a legitimate beef with their business practices! Frankly, if more people complained to ebay about this crap instead of making excused for it, maybe some of these jackasses would be shut down... or at leat repremanded.
For more on this, check out the last 4-5 pages of the 1972 Topps thread in the PSA Set Registry forum.
Original auction: 72 T Foli IA #1
Current auction: 72 T Foli IA #2 >>
WOW that is some solid evidence !! >>
I sent an email to them to ask about this card because of the difference i price in just a few months. i then saw this thread. here is their response to my question of if it is the same card, what happened to the prior transaction, etc.
"It is the same card. It was lost intransit, the buyer was refunded after 30 days from date of shipment (required wait time for insurance purposes), and eventually it showed back up at our office address. The card was still in the same shape as when shipped (we package quite well) so no worries there.
- 4_sharp_corners"
From my many purchases from them in the past several years, I have only had one problem (where they simply told me to contact PSA about a mislabeled item) with their service or auctions. Then again, I have been lucky in that whatever I purchased through an auction from them I received in the mail. Nothing lost so far that I recall. So take their response to my question how you want. I just know that in a similar situation with PSASetGuy (Jonathan Miller), I never received one item, he refunded me the purchase, but then a few months later he listed the same card, I notified him about it, he canceled the listing, and sent me the card for free. Now that is great customer service!
Successful transactions with bouwob, lifeshouldbefun, SDSportsFan, Bkritz, tsalems1, kwtoz, johnny1976, Topps29, Calaban7, nascar20, bking, bedellsonics, Beck6, Dialj, Echocanyon, mdkuom, gosteelers, artimus.
Worth repeating again
Yo guys ought to know this by now. Whatever they sell ungraded didn't meet their PSA standards to send in--OR THEY WOULD HAVE!!!!
Plain and Simple.
Neil
"It is the same card. It was lost intransit, the buyer was refunded after 30 days from date of shipment (required wait time for insurance purposes), and eventually it showed back up at our office address. The card was still in the same shape as when shipped (we package quite well) so no worries there.
Ummm, sure, ok, that sounds plausible...As SteveK would say, just another dishonest dealer!
They made a mistake (obviously), but instead of just admitting it, they fabricate this story? Lame to the nth degree. I'd even respect them to some extent if they just refused to sell the card to the original buyer due to their listing error, but now it's obvious they have no integrity, either.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Some sellers are unethical.
When the two collide on a transaction there's bound to be trouble.
Use the 'Ask a seller a question' link. It's simple, if they don't respond, then don't bid.
No one's pointing a gun to your head to buy from them. There's lot's of other good, honest sellers out there.
If you don't like their ethics or feel you're being deceived, then don't buy from them and don't buy from their other ebay selling id's. Stand behind your convictions and don't spend any money with them, at all. You'll be happier and I can buy graded cards from them for less money. Thank you!
If you don't like their ethics or feel you're being deceived, then don't buy from them and don't buy from their other ebay selling id's. Stand behind your convictions and don't spend any money with them, at all. You'll be happier and I can buy graded cards from them for less money. Thank you!
Just wondering what your thoughts are with regard to the 72 Foli IA card... personally, I found it very troubling, but that's just me...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.