I was also thinking that trying to make packs with wrappers that have never been folded, i.e. from a roll, might yield a pretty obvious reseal job. Can you really duplicate the folds from a factory-sealed pack well enough to fool the average pack collector?
I support and urge you to keep sharing information when it comes to you.
I am a hobbyist and love collecting, but don't have the time or expertise to keep up with all that's going on in the collecting world. I depend on guys like Steve and this board to help keep me informed.
BTW, I was involved in the last football rip and could not have been more satisfied with the service and quality of cards I received from Steve. Even if I didn't get a Payton rookie in my '76 pack:-)
Collecting Topps, Philadelphia and Kellogg's from 1964-1989
<< <i>I'm sorry. This is all my fault. From now on, I will not handle:
Uncut sheets--because I'm sure some of them end up cut and in BGS holders and re-sold Vending boxes--because they can be searched and have cards replaced and re-sold 1989 Topps boxes--because I see they guy bought those on ebay and used the gum for the older fake packs and re-sold Goudeys--becasue they are easily cut down and re-sold Cracker Jacks--becasue they can be bleached and re-sold US Currency--because it has been counterfieted by many countries basically anything of value--Art, Coins, baseball cards, automobiles, stamps, because they all can be altered and re-sold Hartland Statues--because they are altered, re-painted, re-pieced and then re-sold Display boxes--they can be filled with fake packs and re-sold Should I continue?
We should also consider banning:
Checks--as they are forged every minute of every day Credit cards--they are stolen and used every second Our identites--because they are stolen all day long also
All I did was try to help anyone who thinks they have been scammed. I guess from now on I should just keep this helpful information to myself. >>
It is still inexcusable to sell wrappers in bulk.
You don't need $$$$ that badly. >>
jmbkb4, you should just keep your opinions to yourself before people realize how dumb you are. Steve is entitled to sell whatever he wants to whomever he wants. It is not his responsibility to make sure there are no crooks out there.
Steve Hart Is One of the best/elite honest Dealers that is out there and has been in this business longer then some of the posters/jokers on this board have been alive, and has bent over backwards to help people on these boards with pack/wax rips and other useful information.
I would hate to think were this hobby /sportscard collecting would be, without Dealers like Steve who have such great qualities as Honesty/integrity and love of this hobby called sportscard collecting and have been in this hobby for 20 + years, sharing information and knowledge that he has learned over the last 20+ years.
<<<mbkb4, you should just keep your opinions to yourself before people realize how dumb you are>>>
incredible, psafan (or is it psaemployee?). Profound.
So members can't proffer opinions unless you agree with them? What a crock of s***. The few brave souls who actually raised legitimate concerns/questions about selling rolls of modern hockey wrappers get lynched by the mob. Honestly, this hurts Steve more than any of us. I wonder if our esteemed board members would have had the same reaction if it were anyone else. I doubt it.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
know what you are buying and who you are buying from , that is what it takes with unopened.
the suggestion to burn everything that is opened is way off target. there are many legitimate buyers of wrappers and boxes. I sold a mint 72 empty box this week for $60 bucks on ebay , the buyer is legitimate and collects these , so I should have destroyed it? I have sold 70 opc wrappers for between 10-40 bucks to legitimate buyers , same deal here as they were collectors. I have bought many penny wrappers , I want to frame them, what you guys are saying is the sellers should have thrown them away and not received the few thousand dollars that I have spent so far on them. maybe you guys got a hold of all the 64 penny wrappers and burnt them which is why I can't find one and it is the last one I need for a complete run.
I can attest to the fact that since I have been collecting/dealing in sportscards there has always been a market for wrappers especially the older wrappers 1933 - 1970's, wish I would have saved a few of the 1972 wrappers that I opened. matter of fact if anybody wants to throw away a 1972 topps wrapper please mail it to me, it would go great with my 72 Topps set . When I was building sets and selling them mainly 1978 - 1992 , I would include 1 or 2 wrappers with the set for the buyers pleasure. On the bad side there has been and always will be the scammers /scum trying to make the easy buck by ripping someone else off.
So please don't try to crucify the honest dealers/collectors for buying and selling legitimate collectibles.I know the older packs that I have now if and when I ever open them , I will not throw the wrapper or the box away. Just my 2 cents
<< <i>It would be one thing if he sold the wrappers, empty box and a bunch of NM/MT commons as sort of a "pack-building kit", but selling the wrappers by themselves is just selling a collectible and nothing more. >>
Agreed.
If a gunshop owner sells a gun to someone, after all the background checks and whatever else is needed are performed and the gun owner goes out and does something unlawful with that gun, is the gunshop owner responsible??
Should I throw them away because one day they might fall into the wrong hands? >>
Yes!
rd
edit: I've got plenty of flack every time I state my feeling about wrappers. How much are 40 rolls of wrappers worth? Well, maybe we could "take-up a collection" and pay you to burn them all? I'm in!!!!!!
IMO, I'd find another hobby before I'd collect just wrappers: (BTW, these packs are just some "ebay spam" of mine! LOL!)
<< <i>know what you are buying and who you are buying from , that is what it takes with unopened.
the suggestion to burn everything that is opened is way off target. there are many legitimate buyers of wrappers and boxes. I sold a mint 72 empty box this week for $60 bucks on ebay , the buyer is legitimate and collects these , so I should have destroyed it? I have sold 70 opc wrappers for between 10-40 bucks to legitimate buyers , same deal here as they were collectors. I have bought many penny wrappers , I want to frame them, what you guys are saying is the sellers should have thrown them away and not received the few thousand dollars that I have spent so far on them. maybe you guys got a hold of all the 64 penny wrappers and burnt them which is why I can't find one and it is the last one I need for a complete run. >>
IMO, a big difference between a single vintage wrapper and "wrapper rolls". But that fact of the matter, if I was a collector of wrappers and see that wrappers are being used by crooks, I would gladly stop collecting wrappers altogether.
<< <i>It would be one thing if he sold the wrappers, empty box and a bunch of NM/MT commons as sort of a "pack-building kit" >>
Good Point!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Although I don't think Steve did anything wrong selling these wrappers and has every right to sell them, I think he should consider a self imposed moratorium on selling wrappers. I can't imagine his wrapper sales account for even a fraction of a percent of his revenue but clearly, selling them has the potential to indirectly hurt his business more than help it by souring people on buying unopened wax. >>
another good point!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Fandango, You actually make a good point but the blame does not lie with Steve. He's one of the good guys and it really would be a shame to lose his insight. >>
I for one think this is a very interesting topic and I enjoy the debate on this subject. I think a number of Board members have been making very valid agreements for both sides of this issue....
Once everyone burns all the wrappers (except that one someone has hidden in the bunkers away from the NAZI Wrapper Patrol), someone will start producing them somewhere and then genuine cards will be resealed in counterfeit wrappers........
This saga is unbelievable!
Steve, keep doing what you are doing..and another thanks from a member.
<< <i>Steve- 99% of us sincerely THANK YOU! A few people are just trying to stir the pot here so I would ignore them. Thank you for running the most ethical baseball card store I know of and thank you for your warning in this particular situation! >>
So I guess we are suppose to assume that 100% of the people buying wrappers on Ebay or anywhere else are just using them to reseal cards?? I guess I am a little bit more of an optimist in that most people buy them for their own collection. Maybe I am way off base, but I tend to think that there are a few out there that do this type of thing, but I don't you need to have everyone stop selling their wrappers. JMHO
The seller did not do anything legally wrong but think any seller should consider the damage to the hobby when selling something like this. If these were wrappers to worthless packs then no one would care but if these are wrappers to valuable packs then a seller should think about to whom are these wrappers going to be most valuable. Some honest collectors might want 1 wrapper for their collection but not too many honest collectors would want or need an entire roll. I cannot imagine these particular wrappers having too much value as a collectible. I do not know how many owners this roll had since it was new but it was likely to get into the wrong hands eventually. I would think destroying these would have been the best answer but that is just a moral choice.
jmbkb4, you should just keep your opinions to yourself before people realize how dumb you are.
100% agree.
Though everybody is entitled to an opinion some people are just looking to be contrarians like jmbkb4 and cravetopps. I like a good debate and I like to hear the contrarian view point but here you guys are just stirring the pot. It's not a sustainable argument that you proffer in my highly educated opinion. As they said in law school, it becomes a slippery slope... where do you draw the line? It's not ok to sell wrappers alone but it is ok to sell wrappers that are in a box with cards and gum? Why? Where do you draw the line? As stated above, you buy the box and you have everything you need to re-seal so unopened wax should all be illegal. Plus, cravetopps, before defending jmbkb4, remember that guy is constantly posting dumb a$$ stuff. It's cumulative. Finally, it's completely wrong to throw Steve under the bus here. That's just silly. I have done business with him countless times and the guy is THE best retailer I deal with and I spend a lot of money at a lot of places each year! He is the Nordstrom's of card stores. I have the highest regard for Steve.
<< <i>Finally, it's completely wrong to throw Steve under the bus here. That's just silly. I have done business with him countless times and the guy is THE best retailer I deal with and I spend a lot of money at a lot of places each year! He is the Nordstrom's of card stores. I have the highest regard for Steve. >>
I have never dealt with Steve but based on all the positive feedback I have read in this thread I would definately deal with him in the future.
I too think it is irresponsible and detrimental to the hobby to sell a lot of wrappers. While I agree that many collectors enjoy having "ONE" or "TWO" wrappers to an issue they like, I think that too many people out there who buy a lot of wrappers are ill intended.
While there have been several good points made on both sides of the argument, this is going to have to be an issue to agree to disagree with the other side. One can make a personal decision to not resell wrappers but I don't think you can expect everyone else to follow your thoughts, morals and ethics.
When someone has a roll of wrappers, it is not a kit to reseal packs. These rolls have never been wrapped on cards. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to make them "wrap" around 12 cards and look anything like a pack. These 79/80 Topps hockey packs in question looked like a blue envelope wrapped around 12 cards. They looked like those "grab bags" people sell at card shows. You would need some pretty impressive machine to put the corner folds and back wraps. If your going to say it's ok to sell 1 or 2 wrappers, that is actually worse. Those wrappers can be folded back together because at one time, they actually were. The original corner folds and back folds were there once and can be folded back together.
Again, the person who used wrappers off a roll made these bogus packs would actually be doing better by buying wrappers that once were on packs. The way these packs looked were equivalent to taking a Post-it Note and drawing Michael Jordans rookie picture on it!
Good point Steve. Not sure that many people here realize what a wrapper roll really is. Duplicating Topps' packaging process from any era would take a lot of time and money.
When someone has a roll of wrappers, it is not a kit to reseal packs. These rolls have never been wrapped on cards. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to make them "wrap" around 12 cards and look anything like a pack. These 79/80 Topps hockey packs in question looked like a blue envelope wrapped around 12 cards. They looked like those "grab bags" people sell at card shows. You would need some pretty impressive machine to put the corner folds and back wraps. If your going to say it's ok to sell 1 or 2 wrappers, that is actually worse. Those wrappers can be folded back together because at one time, they actually were. The original corner folds and back folds were there once and can be folded back together.
Again, the person who used wrappers off a roll made these bogus packs would actually be doing better by buying wrappers that once were on packs. The way these packs looked were equivalent to taking a Post-it Note and drawing Michael Jordans rookie picture on it!
Thanks, Steve >>
Steve - I gotta disagee with ya here. It wouldn't be that difficult to program the right folding machine to do those folds, or it could be done by hand in various ways. With the folding machine, it might have to been run through the machine several times, but it could be done.
For someone with knowledge on this subject, it should be much easier to make something look "real" and "unopened" when dealing with the virgin paper product, than trying to unfold it and refold it. Of course some young scammer or impatient scammer is not going to take the time to learn how to do this. But a "determined" scammer most likely would learn how to do this, much like any skilled counterfeiter, especially if there are many tens of thousands of dollars to be made off of unsuspecting buyers.
<< <i>Good point Steve. Not sure that many people here realize what a wrapper roll really is. Duplicating Topps' packaging process from any era would take a lot of time and money. >>
Thats where taking Origami 101 would come in handy...
<< <i>It would be one thing if he sold the wrappers, empty box and a bunch of NM/MT commons as sort of a "pack-building kit", but selling the wrappers by themselves is just selling a collectible and nothing more. >>
Agreed.
If a gunshop owner sells a gun to someone, after all the background checks and whatever else is needed are performed and the gun owner goes out and does something unlawful with that gun, is the gunshop owner responsible?? >>
According to the gun grabbers, YES.
By the way, I'm looking for a nice 1933 Goudey Wrapper if anyone has one for sale.
Don't worry, my PSA4's won't cut it for a reseal job.
<< <i>For someone with knowledge on this subject, it should be much easier to make something look "real" and "unopened" when dealing with the virgin paper product, than trying to unfold it and refold it. >>
Maybe Gary can jump in on this one and give us his "expert" opinion!!!
Probably joining the getting shot group and not at all taking away from Steve's integrity (which I think is what's causing a lot of the uproar as much as what happened to the product), I kind of liken the sale of old/new, pristine wrappers like what's happening with pseudoephedrine. People can still buy it and it's completely legal, however one has to buy it individually. In bulk, there seems to be abuse. In bulk, purchases of wrappers can lead to abuse. Not to put undue pressure on the sellers of these types of things, but maybe there should be something like what happens with gun purchases (background check). You aren't going to stop the behavior, just make it more difficult.
I know this is simplistic and the domino theories are valid, but it might be a better business model for somebody like BBCE in the long run. If more people are comfortable with buying unopened material, business for unopened material might pick up in general.
I too think it is irresponsible and detrimental to the hobby to sell a lot of wrappers. While I agree that many collectors enjoy having "ONE" or "TWO" wrappers to an issue they like, I think that too many people out there who buy a lot of wrappers are ill intended.
While there have been several good points made on both sides of the argument, this is going to have to be an issue to agree to disagree with the other side. One can make a personal decision to not resell wrappers but I don't think you can expect everyone else to follow your thoughts, morals and ethics. >>
Anybody who's worried about "rolls of wrappers" turning into "unopened" product better get used to it, since there are probably enough around that someone, somewhere is going to try and "pull a fast one" on you. Putting blame on Steve for this phenomenon (human greed) is BEYOND PATHETIC. Have a super day!
Interesting debate, one of the primary uses for forums such as this.
I've wondered how many people collect wrappers, obviously far fewer than card collectors. I myself have collected sports and non-sport packs, wrappers and display boxes for 7 years on ebay, hardly interested in cards at all, the graphics and the relative rarity of these items are what spurred my interest in the hobby. I picked up one of those 100 count rolls of 79 Topps hockey wrappers years ago when they first made an appearance on ebay along with 75 Topps baseball rolls from the same seller. I can't actually recall seeing any other such rolls out there, I'm curious as to which other wrapper rolls have been available recently? I've seen smaller 1964 Beatles B/W wrapper rolls as well.
As a wrapper collector, my 79 roll is one of the centerpieces of my collection as it is unique by comparison to the other card related items, especially single, previously used wrappers. As a pack collector, I don't have any concerns with the sale of wrapper rolls. I tend to agree with Steve that it should be easier for pack authenticators to spot fake packs made from roll material than from wrappers that already have factory folds and in many cases are not flattened after opening.
Anyone buying 79 topps hockey and 86 Fleer basketball packs raw are particularly adventurous anyways unless they are confident in their authenication skills, that these are high risk purchases has been common knowledge in pack collecting circles for years. It's been said here before, if you wish to buy packs, authentication services provide a degree of comfort as well as buying from knowledgeble people you trust and taking the time to educate yourself on what to look for in packs and the seller.
When someone has a roll of wrappers, it is not a kit to reseal packs. These rolls have never been wrapped on cards. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to make them "wrap" around 12 cards and look anything like a pack. These 79/80 Topps hockey packs in question looked like a blue envelope wrapped around 12 cards. They looked like those "grab bags" people sell at card shows. You would need some pretty impressive machine to put the corner folds and back wraps. If your going to say it's ok to sell 1 or 2 wrappers, that is actually worse. Those wrappers can be folded back together because at one time, they actually were. The original corner folds and back folds were there once and can be folded back together.
Again, the person who used wrappers off a roll made these bogus packs would actually be doing better by buying wrappers that once were on packs. The way these packs looked were equivalent to taking a Post-it Note and drawing Michael Jordans rookie picture on it!
Thanks, Steve >>
Steve - I gotta disagee with ya here. It wouldn't be that difficult to program the right folding machine to do those folds, or it could be done by hand in various ways. With the folding machine, it might have to been run through the machine several times, but it could be done.
For someone with knowledge on this subject, it should be much easier to make something look "real" and "unopened" when dealing with the virgin paper product, than trying to unfold it and refold it. Of course some young scammer or impatient scammer is not going to take the time to learn how to do this. But a "determined" scammer most likely would learn how to do this, much like any skilled counterfeiter, especially if there are many tens of thousands of dollars to be made off of unsuspecting buyers.
- >>
stevek, my point exactly....it would be much easier to take a virgin wrapper, fold it with the machine, and have "original" creases that look legit...when resealing a wrapper that was already opened, you will get redundencies along the folds, creating a look indicative of resealed packs....
BBCX, why would you jeopordize your business/credibility with a product that has to be a minute portion of your total sales....as an astute business man, it would seem smart to eliminate "problematic" products from your list of items....
i having nothing against BBCX, its just seems simple enough to stop selling something that is causing problems....
if the biggest seller made a stand and stopped carrying this stuff, then maybe others would follow suit and we would have done something in eliminating a problem in the hobby...
When someone has a roll of wrappers, it is not a kit to reseal packs. These rolls have never been wrapped on cards. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to make them "wrap" around 12 cards and look anything like a pack. These 79/80 Topps hockey packs in question looked like a blue envelope wrapped around 12 cards. They looked like those "grab bags" people sell at card shows. You would need some pretty impressive machine to put the corner folds and back wraps. If your going to say it's ok to sell 1 or 2 wrappers, that is actually worse. Those wrappers can be folded back together because at one time, they actually were. The original corner folds and back folds were there once and can be folded back together.
Again, the person who used wrappers off a roll made these bogus packs would actually be doing better by buying wrappers that once were on packs. The way these packs looked were equivalent to taking a Post-it Note and drawing Michael Jordans rookie picture on it!
Thanks, Steve >>
Steve - I gotta disagee with ya here. It wouldn't be that difficult to program the right folding machine to do those folds, or it could be done by hand in various ways. With the folding machine, it might have to been run through the machine several times, but it could be done.
For someone with knowledge on this subject, it should be much easier to make something look "real" and "unopened" when dealing with the virgin paper product, than trying to unfold it and refold it. Of course some young scammer or impatient scammer is not going to take the time to learn how to do this. But a "determined" scammer most likely would learn how to do this, much like any skilled counterfeiter, especially if there are many tens of thousands of dollars to be made off of unsuspecting buyers.
- >>
stevek, my point exactly....it would be much easier to take a virgin wrapper, fold it with the machine, and have "original" creases that look legit...when resealing a wrapper that was already opened, you will get redundencies along the folds, creating a look indicative of resealed packs....
BBCX, why would you jeopordize your business/credibility with a product that has to be a minute portion of your total sales....as an astute business man, it would seem smart to eliminate "problematic" products from your list of items....
i having nothing against BBCX, its just seems simple enough to stop selling something that is causing problems....
if the biggest seller made a stand and stopped carrying this stuff, then maybe others would follow suit and we would have done something in eliminating a problem in the hobby...
i >>
I'm involved in the computer graphics business so I "know" how easy this would be to do. What keeps "everyone" from doing it? How about what keeps every person with an offset press who through their knowledge could "easily" print pretty good looking US currency on some pretty good paper which would fool a lot of people...how about years in prison is what keeps them from doing it.
I didn't read every post but I think most everyone is missing the point here and the solution. It's not about Steve selling the wrappers, it's not about a paper company selling paper which is "close to" the feel and look of US currency so counterfeiters can use it, it's about prosecuting criminal activity... it's about prosecuting these ebay scammers.
Yes, that's right - PROSECUTING THESE SCAMMING SOB's and throwing them in jail...that would stop a lot of the ebay scamming. Right now these ebay scammers feel that they can perpetrate these scams and fraud with virtual impunity...and unfortunately the scammers are correct with that assessment.
<<<<Yes, that's right - PROSECUTING THESE SCAMMING SOB's and throwing them in jail...that would stop a lot of the ebay scamming. Right now these ebay scammers feel that they can perpetrate these scams and fraud with virtual impunity...and unfortunately the scammers are correct with that assessment.>>>>
Well stated. If this kind of stuff hit ebay in their pocketbook, they would be as aggressive as Microsoft is cracking down on piracy and would have a full time staff of attorneys going after these scum. Unfortunately, ebay does not lose revenue, or at least directly anyway, and consequently they don't do much of anything except shut down the occasional shady auction. I guarantee if someone was selling WalMart or Target repackaged cards, they would be shut down in no time and prosecuted because it would hurt the retailers excellent reputation and eventually, hit their bottom line. What ebay fails to realize is that there is a direct correlation between allowing this kind of crap and their less than stellar performance and repuation as of late. They can't continue to hide behind the mantra of just "bringing buyers and sellers together" and not recognize they have to do this responsibly.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>Yes, that's right - PROSECUTING THESE SCAMMING SOB's and throwing them in jail...that would stop a lot of the ebay scamming. Right now these ebay scammers feel that they can perpetrate these scams and fraud with virtual impunity...and unfortunately the scammers are correct with that assessment. >>
If some of you don't understand why it is not a smart thing for the #1 seller of wax in the USA to be selling unused wrappers, I don't know what else needs to be said.
<< <i>If some of you don't understand why it is not a smart thing for the #1 sealer of wax in the USA to be selling unused wrappers, I don't know what else needs to be said. >>
Comments
BTW Thanks Steve for letting people know.
I support and urge you to keep sharing information when it comes to you.
I am a hobbyist and love collecting, but don't have the time or expertise to keep up with all that's going on in the collecting world. I depend on guys like Steve and this board to help keep me informed.
BTW, I was involved in the last football rip and could not have been more satisfied with the service and quality of cards I received from Steve. Even if I didn't get a Payton rookie in my '76 pack:-)
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm sorry. This is all my fault. From now on, I will not handle:
Uncut sheets--because I'm sure some of them end up cut and in BGS holders and re-sold
Vending boxes--because they can be searched and have cards replaced and re-sold
1989 Topps boxes--because I see they guy bought those on ebay and used the gum for the older fake packs and re-sold
Goudeys--becasue they are easily cut down and re-sold
Cracker Jacks--becasue they can be bleached and re-sold
US Currency--because it has been counterfieted by many countries
basically anything of value--Art, Coins, baseball cards, automobiles, stamps, because they all can be altered and re-sold
Hartland Statues--because they are altered, re-painted, re-pieced and then re-sold
Display boxes--they can be filled with fake packs and re-sold
Should I continue?
We should also consider banning:
Checks--as they are forged every minute of every day
Credit cards--they are stolen and used every second
Our identites--because they are stolen all day long also
All I did was try to help anyone who thinks they have been scammed. I guess from now on I should just keep this helpful information to myself. >>
It is still inexcusable to sell wrappers in bulk.
You don't need $$$$ that badly. >>
jmbkb4, you should just keep your opinions to yourself before people realize how dumb you are. Steve is entitled to sell whatever he wants to whomever he wants. It is not his responsibility to make sure there are no crooks out there.
I would hate to think were this hobby /sportscard collecting would be, without Dealers like Steve who have such great qualities as Honesty/integrity and love of this hobby called sportscard collecting and have been in this hobby for 20 + years, sharing information and knowledge that he has learned over the last 20+ years.
Keep up the good work Steve.
incredible, psafan (or is it psaemployee?). Profound.
So members can't proffer opinions unless you agree with them? What a crock of s***. The few brave souls who actually raised legitimate concerns/questions about selling rolls of modern hockey wrappers get lynched by the mob. Honestly, this hurts Steve more than any of us. I wonder if our esteemed board members would have had the same reaction if it were anyone else. I doubt it.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
Steve,
You can't let these threads get to you just because of a few (or many morons) negative comments. Thanks for the heads up.
Don't TAZE me bro!!!
Repeat this as needed until it sinks in...
the blame lies with the RESEALER.
Geez!!!!
the suggestion to burn everything that is opened is way off target. there are many legitimate buyers of wrappers and boxes. I sold a mint 72 empty box this week for $60 bucks on ebay , the buyer is legitimate and collects these , so I should have destroyed it? I have sold 70 opc wrappers for between 10-40 bucks to legitimate buyers , same deal here as they were collectors. I have bought many penny wrappers , I want to frame them, what you guys are saying is the sellers should have thrown them away and not received the few thousand dollars that I have spent so far on them. maybe you guys got a hold of all the 64 penny wrappers and burnt them which is why I can't find one and it is the last one I need for a complete run.
So please don't try to crucify the honest dealers/collectors for buying and selling legitimate collectibles.I know the older packs that I have now if and when I ever open them , I will not throw the wrapper or the box away. Just my 2 cents
<< <i>It would be one thing if he sold the wrappers, empty box and a bunch of NM/MT commons as sort of a "pack-building kit", but selling the wrappers by themselves is just selling a collectible and nothing more. >>
Agreed.
If a gunshop owner sells a gun to someone, after all the background checks and whatever else is needed are performed and the gun owner goes out and does something unlawful with that gun, is the gunshop owner responsible??
<< <i>I have about 40 rolls of wrappers
Should I throw them away because one day they might fall into the wrong hands? >>
Yes!
rd
edit: I've got plenty of flack every time I state my feeling about wrappers. How much are 40 rolls of wrappers worth? Well, maybe we could "take-up a collection" and pay you to burn them all?
IMO, I'd find another hobby before I'd collect just wrappers: (BTW, these packs are just some "ebay spam" of mine! LOL!)
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
<< <i>know what you are buying and who you are buying from , that is what it takes with unopened.
the suggestion to burn everything that is opened is way off target. there are many legitimate buyers of wrappers and boxes. I sold a mint 72 empty box this week for $60 bucks on ebay , the buyer is legitimate and collects these , so I should have destroyed it? I have sold 70 opc wrappers for between 10-40 bucks to legitimate buyers , same deal here as they were collectors. I have bought many penny wrappers , I want to frame them, what you guys are saying is the sellers should have thrown them away and not received the few thousand dollars that I have spent so far on them. maybe you guys got a hold of all the 64 penny wrappers and burnt them which is why I can't find one and it is the last one I need for a complete run. >>
IMO, a big difference between a single vintage wrapper and "wrapper rolls". But that fact of the matter, if I was a collector of wrappers and see that wrappers are being used by crooks, I would gladly stop collecting wrappers altogether.
My 2 cents again!
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
<< <i>It would be one thing if he sold the wrappers, empty box and a bunch of NM/MT commons as sort of a "pack-building kit" >>
Good Point!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Although I don't think Steve did anything wrong selling these wrappers and has every right to sell them, I think he should consider a self imposed moratorium on selling wrappers. I can't imagine his wrapper sales account for even a fraction of a percent of his revenue but clearly, selling them has the potential to indirectly hurt his business more than help it by souring people on buying unopened wax. >>
another good point!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Fandango, You actually make a good point but the blame does not lie with Steve. He's one of the good guys and it really would be a shame to lose his insight. >>
I for one think this is a very interesting topic and I enjoy the debate on this subject. I think a number of Board members have been making very valid agreements for both sides of this issue....
It is unfair! I collected crisp uncirculated U.S. currency, once upon a time
. I wanted to collect printers' plates too.
But the U.S. Dept. of Engraving & The U.S. Treasury Dept, kept on destroying perfectly good collectables.
I kept telling the U..S Government I just wanted to collect the plates, and would NEVER do anything illegal with them.
But they kept on destroying them!
Damn it all!
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
someone will start producing them somewhere and then genuine cards will be resealed in counterfeit wrappers........
This saga is unbelievable!
Steve, keep doing what you are doing..and another thanks from a member.
<< <i>Steve-
99% of us sincerely THANK YOU! A few people are just trying to stir the pot here so I would ignore them. Thank you for running the most ethical baseball card store I know of and thank you for your warning in this particular situation! >>
Ditto.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Has anyone figured out who is the resealer yet? I searched through all Steve's feedback and could not find it?
Thanks Steve, you are appreciated here!!!
edited for grammar
100% agree.
Though everybody is entitled to an opinion some people are just looking to be contrarians like jmbkb4 and cravetopps. I like a good debate and I like to hear the contrarian view point but here you guys are just stirring the pot. It's not a sustainable argument that you proffer in my highly educated opinion. As they said in law school, it becomes a slippery slope... where do you draw the line? It's not ok to sell wrappers alone but it is ok to sell wrappers that are in a box with cards and gum? Why? Where do you draw the line? As stated above, you buy the box and you have everything you need to re-seal so unopened wax should all be illegal. Plus, cravetopps, before defending jmbkb4, remember that guy is constantly posting dumb a$$ stuff. It's cumulative. Finally, it's completely wrong to throw Steve under the bus here. That's just silly. I have done business with him countless times and the guy is THE best retailer I deal with and I spend a lot of money at a lot of places each year!
<< <i>Finally, it's completely wrong to throw Steve under the bus here. That's just silly. I have done business with him countless times and the guy is THE best retailer I deal with and I spend a lot of money at a lot of places each year! He is the Nordstrom's of card stores. I have the highest regard for Steve. >>
I have never dealt with Steve but based on all the positive feedback I have read in this thread I would definately deal with him in the future.
THINK I GOT A SOLUTION!
ANYONE WANT TO BUY A WRAPPER?
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
I too think it is irresponsible and detrimental to the hobby to sell a lot of wrappers. While I agree that many collectors enjoy having "ONE" or "TWO" wrappers to an issue they like, I think that too many people out there who buy a lot of wrappers are ill intended.
While there have been several good points made on both sides of the argument, this is going to have to be an issue to agree to disagree with the other side. One can make a personal decision to not resell wrappers but I don't think you can expect everyone else to follow your thoughts, morals and ethics.
My Auctions
Just kidding!
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
When someone has a roll of wrappers, it is not a kit to reseal packs. These rolls have never been wrapped on cards. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to make them "wrap" around 12 cards and look anything like a pack. These 79/80 Topps hockey packs in question looked like a blue envelope wrapped around 12 cards. They looked like those "grab bags" people sell at card shows. You would need some pretty impressive machine to put the corner folds and back wraps. If your going to say it's ok to sell 1 or 2 wrappers, that is actually worse. Those wrappers can be folded back together because at one time, they actually were. The original corner folds and back folds were there once and can be folded back together.
Again, the person who used wrappers off a roll made these bogus packs would actually be doing better by buying wrappers that once were on packs. The way these packs looked were equivalent to taking a Post-it Note and drawing Michael Jordans rookie picture on it!
Thanks, Steve
<< <i>OK, let me add 1 more thing also.
When someone has a roll of wrappers, it is not a kit to reseal packs. These rolls have never been wrapped on cards. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to make them "wrap" around 12 cards and look anything like a pack. These 79/80 Topps hockey packs in question looked like a blue envelope wrapped around 12 cards. They looked like those "grab bags" people sell at card shows. You would need some pretty impressive machine to put the corner folds and back wraps. If your going to say it's ok to sell 1 or 2 wrappers, that is actually worse. Those wrappers can be folded back together because at one time, they actually were. The original corner folds and back folds were there once and can be folded back together.
Again, the person who used wrappers off a roll made these bogus packs would actually be doing better by buying wrappers that once were on packs. The way these packs looked were equivalent to taking a Post-it Note and drawing Michael Jordans rookie picture on it!
Thanks, Steve >>
Steve - I gotta disagee with ya here. It wouldn't be that difficult to program the right folding machine to do those folds, or it could be done by hand in various ways. With the folding machine, it might have to been run through the machine several times, but it could be done.
For someone with knowledge on this subject, it should be much easier to make something look "real" and "unopened" when dealing with the virgin paper product, than trying to unfold it and refold it. Of course some young scammer or impatient scammer is not going to take the time to learn how to do this. But a "determined" scammer most likely would learn how to do this, much like any skilled counterfeiter, especially if there are many tens of thousands of dollars to be made off of unsuspecting buyers.
-
<< <i>Good point Steve. Not sure that many people here realize what a wrapper roll really is. Duplicating Topps' packaging process from any era would take a lot of time and money. >>
Thats where taking Origami 101 would come in handy...
<< <i>
<< <i>It would be one thing if he sold the wrappers, empty box and a bunch of NM/MT commons as sort of a "pack-building kit", but selling the wrappers by themselves is just selling a collectible and nothing more. >>
Agreed.
If a gunshop owner sells a gun to someone, after all the background checks and whatever else is needed are performed and the gun owner goes out and does something unlawful with that gun, is the gunshop owner responsible?? >>
According to the gun grabbers, YES.
By the way, I'm looking for a nice 1933 Goudey Wrapper if anyone has one for sale.
Don't worry, my PSA4's won't cut it for a reseal job.
<< <i>For someone with knowledge on this subject, it should be much easier to make something look "real" and "unopened" when dealing with the virgin paper product, than trying to unfold it and refold it. >>
Maybe Gary can jump in on this one and give us his "expert" opinion!!!
I know this is simplistic and the domino theories are valid, but it might be a better business model for somebody like BBCE in the long run. If more people are comfortable with buying unopened material, business for unopened material might pick up in general.
Fire away, gentlemen.
so the meth-heads are resealing packs?
these meth-heads have sure made it a pain for those of that would actually like to buy over the counter meds and use them for their intended purpose.
I had to show my license to buy a box of Mucinex the other day.
<< <i>Just my $.02...
I too think it is irresponsible and detrimental to the hobby to sell a lot of wrappers. While I agree that many collectors enjoy having "ONE" or "TWO" wrappers to an issue they like, I think that too many people out there who buy a lot of wrappers are ill intended.
While there have been several good points made on both sides of the argument, this is going to have to be an issue to agree to disagree with the other side. One can make a personal decision to not resell wrappers but I don't think you can expect everyone else to follow your thoughts, morals and ethics. >>
Careful, before the lynch MOB gets you!!!!!!
There is no lynch MOB when the board member is a RESPECTED board member and not a pot stirrer.
<< <i>Careful, before the lynch MOB gets you!!!!!!
Me thinks if you tactfully and respectfully disagreed, the lynch mob would not have come for you.
My Auctions
I've wondered how many people collect wrappers, obviously far fewer than card collectors. I myself have collected sports and non-sport packs, wrappers and display boxes for 7 years on ebay, hardly interested in cards at all, the graphics and the relative rarity of these items are what spurred my interest in the hobby. I picked up one of those 100 count rolls of 79 Topps hockey wrappers years ago when they first made an appearance on ebay along with 75 Topps baseball rolls from the same seller. I can't actually recall seeing any other such rolls out there, I'm curious as to which other wrapper rolls have been available recently? I've seen smaller 1964 Beatles B/W wrapper rolls as well.
As a wrapper collector, my 79 roll is one of the centerpieces of my collection as it is unique by comparison to the other card related items, especially single, previously used wrappers.
As a pack collector, I don't have any concerns with the sale of wrapper rolls. I tend to agree with Steve that it should be easier for pack authenticators to spot fake packs made from roll material than from wrappers that already have factory folds and in many cases are not flattened after opening.
Anyone buying 79 topps hockey and 86 Fleer basketball packs raw are particularly adventurous anyways unless they are confident in their authenication skills, that these are high risk purchases has been common knowledge in pack collecting circles for years. It's been said here before, if you wish to buy packs, authentication services provide a degree of comfort as well as buying from knowledgeble people you trust and taking the time to educate yourself on what to look for in packs and the seller.
<< <i>
<< <i>Careful, before the lynch MOB gets you!!!!!!
Me thinks if you tactfully and respectfully disagreed, the lynch mob would not have come for you. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, let me add 1 more thing also.
When someone has a roll of wrappers, it is not a kit to reseal packs. These rolls have never been wrapped on cards. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to make them "wrap" around 12 cards and look anything like a pack. These 79/80 Topps hockey packs in question looked like a blue envelope wrapped around 12 cards. They looked like those "grab bags" people sell at card shows. You would need some pretty impressive machine to put the corner folds and back wraps. If your going to say it's ok to sell 1 or 2 wrappers, that is actually worse. Those wrappers can be folded back together because at one time, they actually were. The original corner folds and back folds were there once and can be folded back together.
Again, the person who used wrappers off a roll made these bogus packs would actually be doing better by buying wrappers that once were on packs. The way these packs looked were equivalent to taking a Post-it Note and drawing Michael Jordans rookie picture on it!
Thanks, Steve >>
Steve - I gotta disagee with ya here. It wouldn't be that difficult to program the right folding machine to do those folds, or it could be done by hand in various ways. With the folding machine, it might have to been run through the machine several times, but it could be done.
For someone with knowledge on this subject, it should be much easier to make something look "real" and "unopened" when dealing with the virgin paper product, than trying to unfold it and refold it. Of course some young scammer or impatient scammer is not going to take the time to learn how to do this. But a "determined" scammer most likely would learn how to do this, much like any skilled counterfeiter, especially if there are many tens of thousands of dollars to be made off of unsuspecting buyers.
- >>
stevek, my point exactly....it would be much easier to take a virgin wrapper, fold it with the machine, and have "original" creases that look legit...when resealing a wrapper that was already opened, you will get redundencies along the folds, creating a look indicative of resealed packs....
BBCX, why would you jeopordize your business/credibility with a product that has to be a minute portion of your total sales....as an astute business man, it would seem smart to eliminate "problematic" products from your list of items....
i having nothing against BBCX, its just seems simple enough to stop selling something that is causing problems....
if the biggest seller made a stand and stopped carrying this stuff, then maybe others would follow suit and we would have done something in eliminating a problem in the hobby...
i
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, let me add 1 more thing also.
When someone has a roll of wrappers, it is not a kit to reseal packs. These rolls have never been wrapped on cards. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to make them "wrap" around 12 cards and look anything like a pack. These 79/80 Topps hockey packs in question looked like a blue envelope wrapped around 12 cards. They looked like those "grab bags" people sell at card shows. You would need some pretty impressive machine to put the corner folds and back wraps. If your going to say it's ok to sell 1 or 2 wrappers, that is actually worse. Those wrappers can be folded back together because at one time, they actually were. The original corner folds and back folds were there once and can be folded back together.
Again, the person who used wrappers off a roll made these bogus packs would actually be doing better by buying wrappers that once were on packs. The way these packs looked were equivalent to taking a Post-it Note and drawing Michael Jordans rookie picture on it!
Thanks, Steve >>
Steve - I gotta disagee with ya here. It wouldn't be that difficult to program the right folding machine to do those folds, or it could be done by hand in various ways. With the folding machine, it might have to been run through the machine several times, but it could be done.
For someone with knowledge on this subject, it should be much easier to make something look "real" and "unopened" when dealing with the virgin paper product, than trying to unfold it and refold it. Of course some young scammer or impatient scammer is not going to take the time to learn how to do this. But a "determined" scammer most likely would learn how to do this, much like any skilled counterfeiter, especially if there are many tens of thousands of dollars to be made off of unsuspecting buyers.
- >>
stevek, my point exactly....it would be much easier to take a virgin wrapper, fold it with the machine, and have "original" creases that look legit...when resealing a wrapper that was already opened, you will get redundencies along the folds, creating a look indicative of resealed packs....
BBCX, why would you jeopordize your business/credibility with a product that has to be a minute portion of your total sales....as an astute business man, it would seem smart to eliminate "problematic" products from your list of items....
i having nothing against BBCX, its just seems simple enough to stop selling something that is causing problems....
if the biggest seller made a stand and stopped carrying this stuff, then maybe others would follow suit and we would have done something in eliminating a problem in the hobby...
i >>
I'm involved in the computer graphics business so I "know" how easy this would be to do. What keeps "everyone" from doing it? How about what keeps every person with an offset press who through their knowledge could "easily" print pretty good looking US currency on some pretty good paper which would fool a lot of people...how about years in prison is what keeps them from doing it.
I didn't read every post but I think most everyone is missing the point here and the solution. It's not about Steve selling the wrappers, it's not about a paper company selling paper which is "close to" the feel and look of US currency so counterfeiters can use it, it's about prosecuting criminal activity... it's about prosecuting these ebay scammers.
Yes, that's right - PROSECUTING THESE SCAMMING SOB's and throwing them in jail...that would stop a lot of the ebay scamming. Right now these ebay scammers feel that they can perpetrate these scams and fraud with virtual impunity...and unfortunately the scammers are correct with that assessment.
-
Well stated. If this kind of stuff hit ebay in their pocketbook, they would be as aggressive as Microsoft is cracking down on piracy and would have a full time staff of attorneys going after these scum. Unfortunately, ebay does not lose revenue, or at least directly anyway, and consequently they don't do much of anything except shut down the occasional shady auction. I guarantee if someone was selling WalMart or Target repackaged cards, they would be shut down in no time and prosecuted because it would hurt the retailers excellent reputation and eventually, hit their bottom line. What ebay fails to realize is that there is a direct correlation between allowing this kind of crap and their less than stellar performance and repuation as of late. They can't continue to hide behind the mantra of just "bringing buyers and sellers together" and not recognize they have to do this responsibly.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>Yes, that's right - PROSECUTING THESE SCAMMING SOB's and throwing them in jail...that would stop a lot of the ebay scamming. Right now these ebay scammers feel that they can perpetrate these scams and fraud with virtual impunity...and unfortunately the scammers are correct with that assessment. >>
Well said stevek
<< <i>If some of you don't understand why it is not a smart thing for the #1 sealer of wax in the USA to be selling unused wrappers, I don't know what else needs to be said. >>
Steve is the #1 sealer of wax in the country?
But stack the deck if your favor, ya know?