Home U.S. Coin Forum

What would you do in this situation?

I was at a dealer's table at the WESPNEX show today. It's a guy that I know pretty well and like--I've done a lot fo business with him over the past couple years and I trust him.

While at his table another man came up and asked for BU Morgans. The dealer pulled out a few rolls of Morgans, and as this guy started going through them I noticed that even the best ones were sliders. A number were polished, and even more were cleaned. Right under my nose, this guy bought 5 of these crap coins for $35 each, with the complete impression that they were full BU's.

I didn't say anything. I have a good relationship with the guy and didn't want to damage it. But what would you have done?
«1

Comments

  • I would start selling to that dealer!
    Laura A. Kessler
    Vice President
    PCGS Currency
    lkessler@pcgscurrency.com
    www.PCGSCurrency.com
  • nankrautnankraut Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭
    IMHO, It's none of your business. Buyer beware. I would have done nothing, since it was not of my concern, and I am not "the expert" in coin grading.
    I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ah, what the heck. Call it like you see 'em and tell the poor guy he's getting ripped. Consumer protection has to start somewhere.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • Maybe you can refer the Dealer to this Forum and this Threadimage. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    why is it in other transaction, say a walmart we feel no problems
    about giving advice about a certain product..

    but at a coin show we are not allowed to help our fellow collector?

    sad. truly sad.

    i would have spoken up and would have gladly banned myself
    from ever approaching that dealer again.

    i would have then pointed that collector to this forum.
  • savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,267 ✭✭✭✭
    i tend to agree with the mind your own business people on here regarding this.....and the one question i have is about the statement
    >>with the complete impression that they were full BU's.>>
    how do you know what a person's impression was? was he vocal about this as he was viewing the coins....my point is that without knowledge of dates and mintmarks some 'sliders' could be bargains at $35

    greg

    www.brunkauctions.com

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think that it may be time to rethink your relationship with this dealer...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭
    I wouldn't have said anything. It's buyer beware. It's too bad the dealer is ripping the guy off, but I certainly wouldn't want to get into an argument right there at his table about it. Maybe mention something casually to him after the transaction, but the guy buying needs to be smarter.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • savoyspecial, respectfully, and without malice, is it plausible that the impression was created by the transaction request and completion, i.e., the customer asked a Dealer for BU quality and the Dealer sold the Buyer a less than requested quality . Would you not concur that at a minimum, the Dealer has a responsibility to clarify the request, if clarification was needed of what BU meant to the Buyer and not take advantage? Would the impression be caused by the concluding Act that the Buyer paid for the coins, without discussion, and the Dealer took the money? Just curious. Regards and Respectfully John Curlis


  • << <i>i tend to agree with the mind your own business people on here regarding this.....and the one question i have is about the statement
    >>with the complete impression that they were full BU's.>>
    how do you know what a person's impression was? was he vocal about this as he was viewing the coins....my point is that without knowledge of dates and mintmarks some 'sliders' could be bargains at $35

    greg >>



    He kept on commenting on how fantastic the luster was (all the while, pointing at polished coins). He also had specifically asked for BU Morgans.

    Ultimately though, I don't know if he knew they were problem coins. He had a greysheet with him though, and I doubt he would have paid $35 for common dates if he knew they were AU's
  • That's the reason I do not go to shows.

    In my field, I am the expert. In the coin world I am a sheep ready to be ....
  • Assuming the facts and assumptions are correct, this is a classic example of why we needed TPG's. What young and/or novice collector hasn't been ripped off by dealers selling sliders as BU? That used to be the bread and butter of the coin business. Oh, just try to sell the coins back to them later ... suddenly, they're all sliding the other way ...

    Best,
    Sunnywood


  • << <i>IMHO, It's none of your business. Buyer beware. I would have done nothing, since it was not of my concern, and I am not "the expert" in coin grading. >>



    I don't agree with what this dealer did but I agree with the above approach. It's not easy to stay out of a situation like that for me but it is unprofessional to jump into the middle of someone's deal.

    I would actually bring several dollars in similar condition pver to the dealer later and see if offered me BU money. If he did then I would realize he did this out of ignorance if he didn't well, let's just say either way we would have a longer conversation.

    image
    Best Regards,

    Rob


    "Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."

    image
  • So you did nothing? Well, you did less than nothing. You stood by while that bumpkin got ripped off.
    Whats that saying?....All it take for evil to prevail is for one good man to do nothing. Do not be overly concerned thou, you have certainly showed that you are not that one good man.
    J.Cordeiro
    image
    "I has a bucket." - Minazo.
    Minazo the LOLRUS, 1994-2005
    image


  • << <i>you have certainly showed that you are not that one good man. >>




    You were not there, you have no concept of my relationship with this man, and you have no concept of the amount of business this man is good for. There's a difference between constructive criticism and being snobby.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,504 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>why is it in other transaction, say a walmart we feel no problems
    about giving advice about a certain product.. >>


    Because at Walmart there is usually very little subjectivity involved in the transaction...either the product works as advertised or it doesn't.

    In this situation, of course, a great deal of subjectivity is involved. It all boils down to whether or not a person is willing to pay X amount for a particular coin. Maybe the buyer just liked the coins and thought $35 each was a fair enough price. Maybe the buyer didn't have a clue what he was doing. Maybe he knew they had been cleaned and polished and just didn't care.

    In this case, I might have tried to tactfully discuss the Morgans with the buyer AFTER the transaction. If my relationship with the dealer is good and based on several business transactions over a long period of time (as this one apparently is), I would have had a conversation with the dealer about it - AFTER the transaction was completed and as privately and tactfully as possible.

    We all make our own decisions about the coins or other collectibles we like. I may buy a worn old colonial coin and just love it...but it may be a coin you'd never have in your collection.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    i think goldeneye posting this thread shows that he cares
    and wishes for feedback on how to handle it next time.

    hardly a person who does not care...

    maybe a gentle nudge and a shake of the head no to the buyer
    is enough. maybe we do not even have to use words..

    i don't know. i answered what i would have done and simply walked
    away never to see the dealer again.

    goldeneye may not have that luxury.

    -------
    midlife, you make excellent points. i will have to consider them.
  • "The surest way for evil to continue is for good men to do nothing"
    Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig image

    image


  • << <i>

    << <i>you have certainly showed that you are not that one good man. >>



    You were not there, you have no concept of my relationship with this man, and you have no concept of the amount of business this man is good for. There's a difference between constructive criticism and being snobby. >>


    I think I do have a concept of your relationship with that man. It's Financial. Financial and greed. You let that one guy get taken advantage of because of the amount of business the other one is good for. Doesn't sound like mankinds most shining hour.
    J.Cordeiro
    image
    "I has a bucket." - Minazo.
    Minazo the LOLRUS, 1994-2005
    image
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think in this case, I would have said nothing during the transaction. $35 for a coin that may be a slider or cleaned, the buyer will learn a lesson that will only cost him about $20 a coin if cleaned, or $5-10 if bought BU prices and it's an AU. I think we've all paid a much greater price for a lesson. The next time you are having coffee, or a chat away from customers with the seller, I might ask him if he took that roll in from anyone in particular, because you couldn't help but notice the condition of a few, and wanted to make sure you spend extra time looking at that person's offerings if they happen to try to sell you a roll of "BU" Morgans.

    I think the same situation selling say a gold coin you know to be fake (and I mean really darn sure), I would have asked the buyer to have a peek, and if you're still really sure, maybe pull the dealer off to the side and tell him your beliefs. I don't think this situation warranted intervention though.

    On the other hand, maybe this guy just scored some cleaned or AU VAMs worth a few hundred too...

    Just as a casual collector, if I intervened in every transaction I witness at a coin show where I though the coin was overpriced or overgraded, I'd be awfully busy.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • seateddimeseateddime Posts: 6,169 ✭✭✭
    I would question my trust in the dealer.
    I seldom check PM's but do check emails often jason@seated.org

    Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.

    Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
  • bigmarty58bigmarty58 Posts: 1,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with FC's assesment and proposed action. As for the collector it is his responsibility to educate himself before buying. As for this specific dealer is concerned this would raise a redflag to me. His actions were not very ethical. - Robert
    Enthusiastic collector of British pre-decimal and Canadian decimal circulation coins.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sunnywood brings back memories of the "bad old days." As a kid, after a few years, I could grade the coin series that I collected. With very few exceptions, a properly graded BU a dealer would sell you, if you ever wanted to sell it back to the same guy (or any other dealer, for that matter), he'd insist it was overgraded and only offer Unc. money for it.

    The only way I could get decent coins for reasonable prices was to check out bid boards (one guy who had a bid board was kind enough to offer me his opinion re any coin I wanted to bid on) or go to auctions. My favorite auctions were done by this guy named George Bennett (in the Los Angeles area) who looked and sounded like an English WW I vet on steroids. A belch or fart was treated as a bid, and he went as fast as a North Carolina tobacco auctioneer.

    As far as the particular dealer GoldenEye mentioned, I would not have said anything during the transaction, but would not have anything to do with said dealer afterwards. The company you keep says quite a bit about one's character, or lack thereof.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • Some of you are missing the point.

    Each screwing the buyers costs all dealers. I told 5 friends of a bad deal and they told and soon there were no more buyers.

    And for what, a few bucks. The guy probably did what I did. I bought 10 books and tried to understand as much as can.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You should have caught the guy later and told him to take the coins back to the dealer he got them from. The first two letters in BULL$HIT are BU.
  • oxy8890oxy8890 Posts: 1,416


    << <i>why is it in other transaction, say a walmart we feel no problems
    about giving advice about a certain product..

    but at a coin show we are not allowed to help our fellow collector?

    sad. truly sad.

    i would have spoken up and would have gladly banned myself
    from ever approaching that dealer again.

    i would have then pointed that collector to this forum. >>



    FC,

    I would recommend you be careful how you handle a situation like this. You are assuming many things, the biggest assumption is that both GoldenEye and the other dealer know how to grade (nothing personal Golden Eye, I just don't know who you are). In addition, I have taken a coin or coins to multiple B&M dealers on the same day and they have given the coin/coins grades between AU55 and MS64. BTW, these are reputable dealers who will purchase a coin for an AU price and then sell it as AU. They are fair.


    Here is what I mean. I am a collector who sells coins and has set up at shows in the past. I don't profess under any circumstances to know everything about coins. At the same time I would never intentionally rip anyone off (I have never been accused of or to my knowledge sold someone a cleaned/polished coin as a BU/Unc coin). I am very confident when it comes to grading Lincolns and spotting (no pun intended) cleaned or once cleaned copper, but any other coin series I still realize I have much to learn. In fact, I will even tell clients this looks Unc to me or "In my opinion this has been cleaned".

    Here is what I am getting at and I realize that I might be an unusual case:

    If you approached me in a professional manner and explained that you thought some of my coins were cleaned or polished that I was selling, I would ask you what you see in these coins that cause you to come to that conclusion. If you gave me a compelling explanation I would pull those coins and speak with some of my other colleagues who I trusted regarding grading. If they all agreed with you, I would chalk it up as a learning experience and offer these coins as AU/sliders or whatever the appropriate grade was.

    On the other hand, unless your name is David Hall, Ron Guth or you are getting paid 6 figures a year to grade coins by PCGS or NGC I would suggest you stay out of these transactions.

    If you cut into a transaction and started disparaging my coins in the middle of a sale, our future business relationship would be the least of your problems. I would have you thrown off the bourse floor and I would do everything possible to have any current coin memberships revoked due to conduct violations within their bylaws. I would also make sure that every dealer I knew was aware of what a risk you could be at their table or in their store because if you perceived that one of their customers was about to get “ripped off” you would go ACLU on them and cause an extremely uncomfortable situation in their establishment or at their bourse table.

    Please don’t get me wrong I think you have some solid points and I would agree that integrity, ethics, honesty and accountability are the most important components of this hobby or almost anything for that matter. But if I observed this on a bourse floor I would asked a multitude of questions (mostly directed at the dealer) before taking action, I never assume I am a better grader than anyone.

    If I thought the coins were cleaned and I was this concerned about other peoples business, I would ask the dealer why he thought otherwise. If I did not like his answer then I would take steps. JMO


    Best Regards,

    Rob


    "Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."

    image


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>you have certainly showed that you are not that one good man. >>



    You were not there, you have no concept of my relationship with this man, and you have no concept of the amount of business this man is good for. There's a difference between constructive criticism and being snobby. >>


    I think I do have a concept of your relationship with that man. It's Financial. Financial and greed. You let that one guy get taken advantage of because of the amount of business the other one is good for. Doesn't sound like mankinds most shining hour. >>



    He's also a friend, a personal, good friend. You're making highly cynical assumptions about a relationship you know nothing about.
  • curlycurly Posts: 2,880


    Some a you brothers are certainly taking the high road on this. Trying to save others from squandering their money is a mighty big task.
    Every man is a self made man.

  • I have NEVER been to one single solitary coin show that I have witnessed more than one Dealer trying to rip joe public. It's a disgrace.
  • Whatever. Your "good, personal, relationship" friend sells cleaned coins to unsuspecting people as BU while you look the other way. And you call me cynical. Excellent. No wonder it gets harder and harder for honest people to sell coins.
    J.Cordeiro
    image
    "I has a bucket." - Minazo.
    Minazo the LOLRUS, 1994-2005
    image
  • Keep asking yourself ethical questions such as this one. And continue to do so, in your professional life as well as your personal life. There is good feedback posted here. Next time, if and when you find yourself in a similar situation, you'll be better prepared to decide how you'll deal with it.

    What you observed made you uncomfortable. Pay attention to that feeling.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> It's a guy that I know pretty well and like--I've done a lot of business with him over the past couple years and I trust him.
    He's also a friend, a personal, good friend. You're making highly cynical assumptions about a relationship you know nothing about. >>




    I'm just gonna play devil's advocate for the guy who paid $35 each for coins that he picked out himself, it sounds like. (nobody forced him to pick sliders or cleaned coins, it was his choice)

    Personally, I don't believe anyone did anything wrong, but you may want to tell your friend that good business hinges on honesty as a factor.
    There is no honor among thieves.


  • << <i>Whatever. Your "good, personal, relationship" friend sells cleaned coins to unsuspecting people as BU while you look the other way. And you call me cynical. Excellent. No wonder it gets harder and harder for honest people to sell coins. >>



    Yes, you are cynical. You seem convinced that the only reason I let this man buy these coins was because I was somehow greedy and dishonest (just because I wanted to keep a friend?).

    I bet that every single person on these boards has, at some point in their life, let a buddy do something/allow something/get away with something they probably shouldn't have. Does that mean that they're a bad person? Does that mean your buddy is a bad person? No. If you went and ratted them out and broke that friendship, well, then I don't think people would have many friends.

    So JRC, is your record spotless? Have you ever done something that might infringe on some ethical standards? Maybe admitted a friend for free to someplace where they should've had to pay to get in? If you can say you've never done anything wrong you are truly a saint. Otherwise, shame shame shame, you must not be a very "honest" person, eh?

    I'm not saying what this dealer did was right, but ultimately this hobby has a heavy emphasis on the "buyer beware" system. PCGS guarantees a grade when they certify a coin, but does that not mean that F15 coins have gotten into VF20 holders and sold at VF20 price? This dealer stated a grade (a similar principle to the PCGS guarantee) when he sold these coins, and the buyer still agreed to buy them at the increased price. This dealer accepts returns, just like PCGS can review coins that may be overgraded, and this buyer could have brought them back if he wanted. There was a whole floor full of dealers, and whether or not he consulted any of them to learn of his misfortune, I do not know, but I do not believe he took the coins back for a return. There are plenty of overgraded coins in TPG holders, but not all of them are sent in for review and a possible refund. So, even after buying them and having the opportunity to consult many dealers and return the coins, the buyer opted not to.

    And this dealer is a pretty honest guy. He doesn't doctor coins at all, and usually gives fair prices. You can't judge a book by just reading a single page.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    oxy i disagree with you and would be honored to be thrown off the
    bourse floor trying to protect someone from buying cleaned polished
    silver dollars at 35 bucks a whack.

    i would not want to be around such people.

    coin collecting does not mean that much to me where i would be
    scared by some silly by laws that the foolish ANA created.

    dealers are mostly sharks. i have learned this from experience.
    they sicken me.

    edited to add: i am the new breed of collector. watch out unethical
    dealers because i will call you what i think of you. i am not an old
    man who will pretend to be polite to your face.


  • << <i>I was at a dealer's table at the WESPNEX show today. It's a guy that I know pretty well and like--I've done a lot fo business with him over the past couple years and I trust him.

    While at his table another man came up and asked for BU Morgans. The dealer pulled out a few rolls of Morgans, and as this guy started going through them I noticed that even the best ones were sliders. A number were polished, and even more were cleaned. Right under my nose, this guy bought 5 of these crap coins for $35 each, with the complete impression that they were full BU's.

    I didn't say anything. I have a good relationship with the guy and didn't want to damage it. But what would you have done? >>



    This is why I don't buy raw coins from people I know. I'm less likely to be disappointed. For some reason, when I buy a raw coin from a dealer I know, I expect a lot more.

    Let's be serious. For the most part, You don't see raw coins sold by the finest dealers. The only one I know for the most part that does sell raw coins on a consistent basis and does well at it is Jack Beymer. You see slabbed coins. As much as we dislike slabbed coins, it is a necessary "evil".

    I would not buy the coins I have from Anaconda if they were raw, even at half price. No offense, but with slabbed coins I have a halfway decent sense of the quality of the coin, the values, and perceived guarantees. With a raw coin, I can't tell with any consistency whether it's been cleaned, polished, real, fake, ....



  • << <i>For the most part, You don't see raw coins sold by the finest dealers. The only one I know for the most part that does sell raw coins on a consistent basis and does well at it is Jack Beymer. You see slabbed coins. >>



    Not true--there are others. Julian Leidman, for example, has some of the rarest coins around, and most of the time they're raw.

    Ultimately, what the TPGs have really done is commoditized the coin market, and made it so that a coin in a specific holder will ways be worth $X. This makes things great for investors, and gives collectors who want more financial security more of it. However, a large percentage of the community still enjoy coins, even very rare coins, raw.


  • << <i>

    << <i>For the most part, You don't see raw coins sold by the finest dealers. The only one I know for the most part that does sell raw coins on a consistent basis and does well at it is Jack Beymer. You see slabbed coins. >>



    Not true--there are others. Julian Leidman, for example, has some of the rarest coins around, and most of the time they're raw.

    Ultimately, what the TPGs have really done is commoditized the coin market, and made it so that a coin in a specific holder will ways be worth $X. This makes things great for investors, and gives collectors who want more financial security more of it. However, a large percentage of the community still enjoy coins, even very rare coins, raw. >>



    I fall into the "financial security category".





  • This has stirred up a mini-hornet's nest, and I see merit in many of the responses. There are clearly dealers who misrepresent their coins. However, many threads (grade this....) have shown that opinions of experienced collectors and dealers can diverge significantly. What one collector would judge AU55-58, another would call a MS64 with a weak strike, etc.

    It is never good form to criticize a dealer's inventory in his presence, especially at a coin show. A better way to handle this kind of situation might be to casually tell the customer of some good books 'to help him sharpen his collecting interests.' Alternatively, steer the customer to slabbed coins in the dealer's inventory, if there are any. If a purchase is made, the dealer still makes a sale and perhaps saves face.

    Unfortunately, the business end of numismatics is full of sharks. There really is no absolute guarantee regarding the grade of a coin, and shifting grading standards have been the subject of endless discussions on this board. So have business ethics. I would not continue to do business with a dealer if I thought he was knowingly ripping off his other customers. This is a matter of self-interest---sooner or later you will be burned by the dealer too.

    There are still many dealers (including leaders in the business) that sell raw coins, for various reasons. The top early copper specialists don't care about slabbing because EAC grading standards are tougher than NGC/PCGS standards for half cents and large cents, and early copper collectors typically prefer their coins raw. Some dealers have raw coins in inventory that did not make a hoped-for NGC/PCGS grade (and were cracked out and sold at the asserted higher grade anyway). Other coins are sold raw because the dealer knows they wouldn't grade. The bottom line is that novice collectors should not buy raw coins, because odds are heavily stacked against him. And TPG's do not relieve the collector of the need to learn the ins and outs of technical grading and eye appeal, because about 20% (my crude guess) of the top-tier certified coins are very low end or overgraded.

    Another point to consider is that, even if this novice collector was steered away from making this bad purchase, he would have been burned sometime later. Most collectors (including advanced ones) do make occasional bad purchases, usually because of impulse buying. Patience is not something that you can instill in an adult in a 10 minute talk---it has to be learned the hard way.
  • oxy8890oxy8890 Posts: 1,416


    << <i>oxy i disagree with you and would be honored to be thrown off the
    bourse floor trying to protect someone from buying cleaned polished
    silver dollars at 35 bucks a whack.

    i would not want to be around such people.

    coin collecting does not mean that much to me where i would be
    scared by some silly by laws that the foolish ANA created.

    dealers are mostly sharks. i have learned this from experience.
    they sicken me.

    edited to add: i am the new breed of collector. watch out unethical
    dealers because i will call you what i think of you. i am not an old
    man who will pretend to be polite to your face. >>



    FC,

    Glad you responded. This is not about being polite or old (BTW I don't fall into these categories either at least not in my book). image

    The sad thing is, I think you really missed the point on what I am trying to say here. I have seen many of your other posts. You seem like a nice guy collecting coins with you’re Grandfather etc. All I am saying is I think you have some good ideas and solid observations but I think you may go about this in a much more constructive way. I am not saying you should be silent I am suggesting you be more strategic and influential.

    For example I saw your later post (I actually had the last response window open from the time I made my first post so I did not see that post until later) where you suggested a subtler approach more of a nod or headshake to someone. To me that is very acceptable. Then after the guy has gone take a closer look at the dealer’s coins.

    Ask if you could show this coin to one of your colleagues for an additional opinion. If he says no, bring another collector or dealer over that you trust and see what they say. If you are able to out this dealer to the collector/dealer community I believe you will be more successful.

    What I am saying is do you want to save one guy while you are at the table also or do you want to try and help most or all or the people this person may try to rip off down the line?

    A couple other observations:

    My guess is you are several years younger than I am and this hobby needs people like you.

    I also agree with you regarding most dealers. A good friend of mine from college usually goes to the Long Beach show with me. He does not collect coins but he finds the whole coin and currency bourse floor fascinating. He has decided there are 3 laws of social and economic constants that dealers have

    1 – No matter what you buy the dealers are only making $10.
    2 – If you want to know how great a coin is ask a dealer “What he wants for his coin?”
    3 – If you want to know every problem a coin has ask a dealer to “Make you an offer” on your coin.

    One other thing and again don’t take this the wrong way because I think you took some of my other points the wrong way.



    You wrote:

    edited to add: i am the new breed of collector. watch out unethical
    dealers because i will call you what i think of you. i am not an old
    man who will pretend to be polite to your face.

    I heard:

    Look at me! I am an obnoxious know it all who already has the capacity to grade better than anyone. Because of my vast knowledge, I am going to run around and act as bourse police. Be careful I will be coming to your table next!



    What I am trying to say is are you trying to make a scene or are you trying to keep people from getting ripped off by a scumbag?

    What I was trying to say in my last post is:

    - Before you go after someone make sure they are indeed a scumbag. If they are, I will race you to them.

    - Just make sure you have the right person

    You will get a lot more respect if you gather a little information first and then strategically going after someone. It's easy to unload on someone and make yourself feel better. But if your patient and gather the right information you will be much more successful if "outing a scumbag" is your true goal.


    Best Regards,

    Rob


    "Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."

    image
  • oxy8890oxy8890 Posts: 1,416


    << <i>This has stirred up a mini-hornet's nest, and I see merit in many of the responses. There are clearly dealers who misrepresent their coins. However, many threads (grade this....) have shown that opinions of experienced collectors and dealers can diverge significantly. What one collector would judge AU55-58, another would call a MS64 with a weak strike, etc.

    It is never good form to criticize a dealer's inventory in his presence, especially at a coin show. A better way to handle this kind of situation might be to casually tell the customer of some good books 'to help him sharpen his collecting interests.' Alternatively, steer the customer to slabbed coins in the dealer's inventory, if there are any. If a purchase is made, the dealer still makes a sale and perhaps saves face.

    Unfortunately, the business end of numismatics is full of sharks. There really is no absolute guarantee regarding the grade of a coin, and shifting grading standards have been the subject of endless discussions on this board. So have business ethics. I would not continue to do business with a dealer if I thought he was knowingly ripping off his other customers. This is a matter of self-interest---sooner or later you will be burned by the dealer too.

    There are still many dealers (including leaders in the business) that sell raw coins, for various reasons. The top early copper specialists don't care about slabbing because EAC grading standards are tougher than NGC/PCGS standards for half cents and large cents, and early copper collectors typically prefer their coins raw. Some dealers have raw coins in inventory that did not make a hoped-for NGC/PCGS grade (and were cracked out and sold at the asserted higher grade anyway). Other coins are sold raw because the dealer knows they wouldn't grade. The bottom line is that novice collectors should not buy raw coins, because odds are heavily stacked against him. And TPG's do not relieve the collector of the need to learn the ins and outs of technical grading and eye appeal, because about 20% (my crude guess) of the top-tier certified coins are very low end or overgraded.

    Another point to consider is that, even if this novice collector was steered away from making this bad purchase, he would have been burned sometime later. Most collectors (including advanced ones) do make occasional bad purchases, usually because of impulse buying. Patience is not something that you can instill in an adult in a 10 minute talk---it has to be learned the hard way. >>



    Desert Ratimage

    I don't care if you are 90 you are wise beyond your years and pitch no balls!

    Great Post
    Best Regards,

    Rob


    "Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."

    image
  • curlycurly Posts: 2,880


    OK brothers, lets look at this from the other side of the table. Would you "cherrypick"? Would you tell a dealer that that raw uncirculated 1945 dime that you need for your set is in fact "full bands" and worth a couple Ks more than the $25 he is asking for?

    Or would you keep quiet and purchase it, ship it off to a TPG and come back here bragging about the major rip?

    Be honest now......
    Every man is a self made man.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,738 ✭✭✭
    The courts have already ruled that coin grading is someone's opinion and not a fact. I would be very careful confronting anyone in public in this situation or talking to the buyer and implying that he bought junk. It's a fine line between interfering with the right of someone to conduct their business and tortuous interference with their right to run it. If you suggested to the buyer that they should learn to grade you might get the same reaction as you often do here, anger.
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭
    If someone is selling known fakes or stolen material, contact the bourse chair. Don't butt in on other people's deals, especially with the lame excuse that you are "stopping evil" because you don't agree with the grading and price.

    It's well known in the coin trade that BU silver dollars are baggy MS60, slider AU/Unc, "Commercial Unc", lightly cleaned, etc.

    The latest buy faxes from the big wholesalers offer to pay $22 for "strict Unc" common Morgans. and $19 for "AU/Unc, light cleaning OK"

    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another point to consider is that, even if this novice collector was steered away from making this bad purchase, he would have been burned sometime later. Most collectors (including advanced ones) do make occasional bad purchases, usually because of impulse buying. Patience is not something that you can instill in an adult in a 10 minute talk---it has to be learned the hard way. >>

    xxxxxxxxxxxxx

    If no one intervenes he will get burned more than a few times later. You could suggest he compare his newly purchased BU coins to those in NGC or PCGS holders at 63/64 in other dealers cases to see how they compare. Or you could always ask your dealer friend to see his BU Morgans and then you will know first hand just what he was sellin. Or he could offer them to "other dealers" at the show.
  • kevinstangkevinstang Posts: 1,517 ✭✭✭


    << <i>OK brothers, lets look at this from the other side of the table. Would you "cherrypick"? Would you tell a dealer that that raw uncirculated 1945 dime that you need for your set is in fact "full bands" and worth a couple Ks more than the $25 he is asking for? >>



    Good point! Maybe the guy was hunting for Vams in the first place, most of those rolls of dollars like that are prettty common dates that most dealers never give a good look over in the first place.


  • << <i>OK brothers, lets look at this from the other side of the table. Would you "cherrypick"? Would you tell a dealer that that raw uncirculated 1945 dime that you need for your set is in fact "full bands" and worth a couple Ks more than the $25 he is asking for?

    Or would you keep quiet and purchase it, ship it off to a TPG and come back here bragging about the major rip?

    Be honest now...... >>


    I would say that is different. A dealer, as a professional should know what he is selling. To misrepresent the condition of an item to an unsuspecting buyer is something totally different.
    Never teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig image

    image


  • << <i>OK brothers, lets look at this from the other side of the table. Would you "cherrypick"? Would you tell a dealer that that raw uncirculated 1945 dime that you need for your set is in fact "full bands" and worth a couple Ks more than the $25 he is asking for?

    Or would you keep quiet and purchase it, ship it off to a TPG and come back here bragging about the major rip?

    Be honest now...... >>

    [Curly]


    People's sense of business ethics can be interesting. As Curly says, ripping off a dealer is fair to a cherrypicker. People need to remember that ethical behavior in business transactions is a two-way street. When the next cherrypicker proudly announces his new rip, who will throw the first stone?

    I live in an area where there is a variety of dealers within a couple of hours driving time----a respected specialist and market leader (Rick Snow), and generalists who have varying business models and ethical standards. Some dealers will stand behind what they sell, others won't. The good ones will buy back what they sell, the bad ones only think in terms of making an immediate sale rather than establishing a (more profitable) long-term relationship with a client that will lead to lots of sales. Good dealers will also pass on knowledge---particularly about spotting problem coins---that is difficult to obtain from books or articles in magazines.

    The principal reason why everyone cares about grading is price evaluation, and the generalist B & M dealer more likely than not relies on Greysheet pricing. I have noticed that younger, generalist dealers also tend to be less proficient at grading than the old farts who were in business long before TPGs appeared. There have been a couple of occasions when I discovered, in the course of discussing a coin in a dealer's inventory, that he knew far less about grading coins in the series than I did. Dealers do make mistakes in grade assignment, just like everybody else. Where I would draw the line is misrepresentation---I still see whizzed, polished, cleaned, spot-tooled, etc. coins in some dealer cases, and no notation of problems on the coin holders, nor any up-front comment from the dealer about problems---for these dealers, it's 'don't ask, don't tell.'

    On reflection, given the comment about some of the coins being polished (much worse than cleaned), I think it unlikely that this was due to grading inexpertise on the part of the dealer. I would seriously question my business relationship with him, or else be prepared for a possible, expensive problem with him in the future.

    Part of the reason for this state of affairs is the failure of established organizations to firmly lay down the law (and enforce it) regarding business ethics, and this clearly has impacted the consumer. This particularly includes the ANA (it's silence regarding the First Strikes controversy was interesting, so was a recent controversy concerning a stolen gold bar). You want to complain about poor grading? Start with the industry rags, like Coin World and Numismatic News---they have no trouble selling ad space to dealers who routinely sell overgraded/cleaned stuff.




  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Good point! Maybe the guy was hunting for Vams in the first place, most of those rolls of dollars like that are prettty common dates that most dealers never give a good look over in the first place. >>



    Doesn't matter if he was vamming or not; representing sliders as BU is still wrong.
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
    It is never a good idea to stick your nose into other's business. you don't know all the details. i'm more likely to want to help. Yesterday I was in my favorite brick and mortar a a guy came in looking for low grade merc's. The dealer said he didn't have any. There were a few on the consignment (used to be a bid) board behind the customer. I wanted to point them out but it is not my store and he may have had reasons for not pointing them out. I doubt he forgot they're there.

    In the OP case, since he has known the dealer for years then I would talk to the dealer in private after the customer left. Something like "weren't those morgans you sold graded a little optomisticly?" and see what he says. --jerry

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file