1909 VDB- The First Matte Proof Lincoln Die Diagnostics Informational Thread

commoncents05

As promised, here is the first thread in the series of threads where we will be describing the die characteristics of Matte Proof Lincolns individually by date.


(Not my coin)

We start with the 1909 VDB. By far the rarest of the nine coin series. With a mintage of only 420 pieces, this coin is the stopper for many Registry Sets. Currently, the PCGS Registry has 9 sets that are 88.89% complete, only missing the 1909 VDB. This coin is the only Lincoln Proof with the 'VDB' initials on the reverse, so it is also a type coin. The current PCGS Population Reprts show that PCGS has only certified 97 total coins, and the NGC Census shows that NGC has only certified 47.



The 1909-1916 Matte Proof Lincolns are known for their very sharp strikes and amazing detail. Many people refer to MPLs as "the way Lincoln was supposed to look". The coins were stuck twice at low speed and high pressure. The coins have sharp, squared off rims, and usually a dull, matte finish. These coins are often heavy with die polish lines, which act as die markers to help in distinguishing a Business Strike from a Matte Proof.

The three main diagnostics for identifying a 1909 VDB Matte Proof are as follows:

1) Heavy die polish lines in front of Lincoln's nose on the obverse



2) A single die polish line extending from Lincoln's coat toward the 'R' under 'LIBERTY'



3) A crescent shaped die chip to the right of 'UNUM' on the reverse



Recent Sales:
Bowers & Merena - 8/4/2007- PCGS PR65RD $46,000
Heritage - 11/30/2006 - PCGS PR64RB $14,950
Heritage - 6/3/2006 - NGC PR64BN $8,050
Heritage - 6/3/2006 - PCGS PR65RB $17,250
Heritage - 6/3/2006 - PCGS PR66RB $29,900
Heritage - 5/8/2004 - PCGS PR64RB $7,130

It is clear by the auction prices that this coin is gaining in demand, and collectors are bringing the price closer to what it should be. With the 'cent'ennial of the Lincoln Cent in 2009, it is the consensus of many collectors that the demand for this coin, and the Matte Proof series will greatly increase.

The schedule for the remaining dates:
1909: Link to 1909 diagnostic thread
1910: Link to 1910 diagnostic thread
1911: Link to 1911 diagnostic thread
1912: Link to 1912 diagnostic thread
1913: cohodk 10/21/07
1914: Link to 1914 diagnostic thread
1915: robec 11/4/07
1916: Link to 1916 diagnostic thread

Thanks for reading! If you have one, feel free to post it!

Close up photos courtesy of DMWJR. Entire coin shot taken from Heritage's website.

-Paul

Shamika

Excellent post.

robec

Very nice job Paul. You left no stone unturned.

Steve

Paul, great start on this MPL series.
Steve

cmerlo1

This is something we've needed for a long time. Thank you!

curly

Great post, brother.

gonzer

Excellent and informative Thanks for posting.

RBinTex

Superb! Yuo should DEFITELY post this on a website. I'll host it for you if you like.

hubird

very good!

LeeG

Super info. Thanks for getting this started!!

droopyd

Thanks -- resources like this are invaluable to our numismatic community! Though I don't currently own any MPLs, I definitely plan to pick up at least one in the coming year. Maybe if I'm super lucky this information on diagnostics will help me cherrypick an unattributed raw piece -- I'm sure it's happened before and probably by a board regular or two.

The 09VDB in the first post is one mighty fine looking penny!

BWRC

Paul, you have done an excellent job with our leadoff coin.

perfectstrike

Thanks for the great thread Paul.

David

Nic

Almost missed this great post. Thanks!
K

Rob790

Great thread, look forward to the other upcoming MPL threads!

Rob

SanctionII

Great thread and great information. I used this thread and the diagnostic pics to determine if a 1909 VDB MS cent I picked up last month as a circulation strike is actually a MPL.

Alas it is not, since it does not have the diagnositcs. Still a nice coin I am happy to own.

I assume that we can expect similar threads on other MPL's?

GFourDriver

As promised here are my diagnostics for the 1909 Matte Proof Lincoln:

Though initially coined with the same matte surfaces as the 1909 VDB cent, this issue is more often found with satiny surfaces. This feature was probably the result of the dies becoming slightly worn when coining the later impressions.

The obverse die used to coin VDB cents was continued with this issue and the same diagnostics may be found. A swcond obvers die was also used, and it's distinguished by a fine crack running from the truncation of Lincoln's bust to the rim. A couple of short die gouges run vertically from the top of the letter L in LIBERTY, while letters TY reveal some fine, vertical polishing lines. A third obverse features heavy die polish to the right of Lincoln's nose.

Two reverse dies were used, one with tiny chips appearing between each wheat ear and the border and the other with numerous, vertical die polishing lines around letters O and E of ONE and Letter T of CENT. A few more such lines appear between letters CA of AMERICA and the wheat stem. It's not know which combination of these dies may have been used. ...... David W. Lange

I only have one die state to display and if some may have a different die state, I would love to see it........Gregseagles on ebay

DMWJR

Those were actually my micro photos in the first vdb post I need to take some better ones of my current coin. That coin was a PCGS 66rb that had almost a wood grain look to it.

robec

<< <i>Those were actually my micro photos in the first vdb post I need to take some better ones of my current coin. That coin was a PCGS 66rb that had almost a wood grain look to it. >>



What coin do you currently have?

pf70collector

Thanks for sharing.

commoncents05

Doug, thanks for telling me, I'll give you credit in the post.

-Paul

DMWJR

Thanks Paul. Good job on the thread and post. Maybe I can add some information or pictures along the way.

Robec, I was lucky enough to be in the right place and time to pick up a 66red

robec

<< <i>Thanks Paul. Good job on the thread and post. Maybe I can add some information or pictures along the way.

Robec, I was lucky enough to be in the right place and time to pick up a 66red >>



I could only only dream about that kind of luck. Very cool.

I hope you'll have something to add to my 1911 diagnostic post starting this Sunday.

Bob

fc

great post. thank you.

DMWJR

Updated pics of diagnostics as promised (but late - sorry)

commoncents05

Thanks, Doug!

-Paul

commoncents05

Just a bump to put in there that the PR66RD sold at Heritage for $69,000.

-Paul

DeusExMachina

This is a fantastic thread. Thank you.

ahooka454

planetsteve

After all the fun tonight with debatably on-topic pseudo-"coin" threads, I clicked on this one for penance. I am glad I did. Thanks Paul!

ECHOES

Excellent post, thank-you.
Steve

DMWJR

Paul, what was the coin in the first post graded?

Steve

Paul, the only way I knew there were a few more posts to this thread is that I subscribed to all the diagnostics threads. These should ALL be on the Set Registry forum where at least those who have an interest can see them. I can't possibly check out all the topics on the Coin forum every day. So something like this "gets lost" Too bad. Anything new on when or if the other dates diagnostics will get posted? Steve

commoncents05

Doug, it's graded PR66 RB by PCGS. I took the most eye appealing coin from the Heritage archives and put it in.

Steve- I PMed the people who are signed up for the rest of the dates and they have said they will get on them soon.

-Paul

dorkkarl

this thread & the others you did about the diagnostics of the other dates of matte proof lincolns were easily some of the best ever posted on the forums. i kept printed copies of them.

thanks for taking the time to do these posts!

K S

tydye

Excellent thread!

ambro51

Can you post edge on shots of this coin, to see the thickness and look in respect to a circulation strike?

cmerlo1

I've been saving all of the MPL threads...I can't find the 1915, though. Does anyone have a link?

GFourDriver

Steve

Bumping THIS thread is NOT the way to get those MPL people who have not seen it to have it as a reference. Do the following:

1. Reply to each year diagnostic thread as Paul linked in the OP (Original Post) of this thread.
2. As you reply, check the comment that you want to subscribe to the thread.
3. In the future, go to the "today" link right under the Navigation showing this is the U.S. Coin Forum.
4. All your subscribed threads will be shown there until you delete them.
5. These Diagnostic threads are well worth keeping, especially THIS one on the 1909VDB Matte Proof Lincoln Cent.

Steve

DMWJR

You can subscribe to a thread without having to post to it.

Click this icon on the right side of the post:

That way useless posts don't clutter up threads.

robec

Here is a list of links with the 1915 thread updated.

The schedule for the remaining dates:
1909 VDB (link 1): 1909 VDB diagnostic thread #1
1909 VDB (link 2): 1909 VDB diagnostic thread #2
1909: Link to 1909 diagnostic thread
1910: Link to 1910 diagnostic thread
1911: Link to 1911 diagnostic thread
1912: Link to 1912 diagnostic thread
1913: Link to 1913 diagnostic thread
1914: Link to 1914 diagnostic thread
1915: Link to 1915 diagnostic thread
1916: Link to 1916 diagnostic thread

sinin1

I searched a long time to find this thread

probably because title did not have MPL and had vdb-



great info

Steve

<< <i>I searched a long time to find this thread

probably because title did not have MPL and had vdb-



great info >>



David,
This thread from 2007 DOES contain great information on Lincoln cent matte proofs. Unfortunately, it does NOT belong on the coin forum where the topic is already on page two after three hours. I was aware of your post ONLY because I subscribed to this thread years ago and just received an automatic email about your posting. It has a very limited audience and usually does better on the Set Registry forum where at least interested people usually check the first page topics once a week. Back in 2007 there were write-ups on most of the nine MPL's along with pictures. Unfortunately, follow-ups never happened There are lots and lots of topics on Matte Proof Lincoln cents if you search thru the Set Registry forum going back a few years. Enjoy.
Steve

toyz4geo

Great thread and great information. Now, where are those '09 VDBs I've been wanting to check out a bit closer?????

SoCalBigMark

Bump for a great thread.

acloco

Great info. Thanks. Thoroughly enjoyed the education.

halfcentman

<< <i>This is something we've needed for a long time. Thank you!

Agreed. Very nice work.

FunwithMPL

Great Post

But just tell everyone to buy the Counterfeit Detection booklet with ANA Certiication servivce diagnostics in it

or the newer book Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs by Kevin Flynn it also has the diagnostics in it.

Steve

If you are interested in this subject, please visit the Set Registry Forum.

Thank you.
Steve