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Ebay Closes off TPG's.....only 4 allowed UPDATED YES CONFIRMED DIRECT FROM EBAY SEE EMAIL INSIDE!

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Comments

  • What about "PCI" ??? Why weren't they included?
    Richard
  • Thats what I thought. What about SEGS and PCI. They are listed with CCDN Bluesheet and both are widely respected Grading Services.
    Richard
  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is great news and long overdue.

    You can argue who should be "in" or "out", but I think Ebay has it right.

    And Ebay won't be worried about lawsuits - they have deep pockets, something the crap slabbers don't have.

    The people I feel a bit sorry for are the buyers of all those crummy slabs. Sure, they should have known better, but now they will realize they paid way too much.

    But lets look forward - not back.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭
    With all these new ebay auction rules maybe another auction web site will start picking up some business. I really don't care to have things sensored for me and if I want to grade my raw MS65 coin as such I see nothing wrong with that. They have to go after individual sellers to do this thing right and get rid of the scam artists. It's just easier to do they way they are doing it.
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,096 ✭✭✭
    I think everyone is misunderstanding the new rules. This is the way I understood them:

    You can still sell PCI, SEGS, SGS, etc. but thy are not allowed to be called certified nor have a numerical grade assigned in the title.

    It sounds like a lot of people took this to mean the end of all these third world slabs, which may not be entirely true.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe a sub category for "certified" coins??
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a case where the dam is leaking in so many places that eBay is bleeding to death. A band aid don't work.

    If true, it might be good. But how do you fix what's been broken from it's inception. Ebay should have hired EXPERTS in the beginning, not at the end.
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Doesn't mean they can't be sold, just can't be listed as certified."

    "Certified" is just a word, isn't it? Understanding that a rose by any other name is still a rose seems to be kind of a difficult concept for some to grasp.

    Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.

  • WaterSportWaterSport Posts: 6,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This will only be as effective as the time spent by Ebay policing the listings.

    WS
    Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.


  • << <i>I hope this isn't true. It creates the impression that you can rely on all of the allowed TPGs, which simply isn't true. >>



    And that impression may make life more difficult for a-venture-that-may-or-may-not-become-reality.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Business' should stay out of politics. I wonder if some of the TPGs weren't behind the scene's on this one. >>



    There is nothing "political" about this change. It's an attempt to reduce fraud. I agree with you about the gun parts ban, though. That was nothing more than bowing to the gun-grabber lobby.

    Russ, NCNE
  • Its true. There should be some good bargains on lower tier slabs this week.
  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I think everyone is misunderstanding the new rules. This is the way I understood them:

    You can still sell PCI, SEGS, SGS, etc. but thy are not allowed to be called certified nor have a numerical grade assigned in the title.

    It sounds like a lot of people took this to mean the end of all these third world slabs, which may not be entirely true.

    -Paul >>



    If that's the case, then what the hell good is the change?

    I understand wanting to get rid of the self-slabbers, but PCI, SEGS, and ICCS should NOT be excluded from the allowable slab company list. That's just braindead!

    Also I guess that you can't sell NCS slabs as certified any more, since they were excluded.

    P.S. Has anyone seen an OFFICIAL announcement of this anywhere, or is the rumor mill just churning?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>PCI, SEGS, and ICCS should NOT be excluded from the allowable slab company list. That's just braindead! >>

    2007 PNG Survey Results

    Outstanding:
    Superior: NGC, PCGS
    Good: ANACS, ICG
    Poor: PCI, SEGS
    Unacceptable: ACCGS, ACG, HCGS, NTC, SGS

    You mean it's braindead to exclude grading services that professional numismatists rank as "poor"?

    Do PCI and SEGS have authenticity guarantees?
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You mean it's breaindead to exclude grading services that professional numismatists rank as "poor"?

    Do PCI and SEGS have authenticity guarantees? >>



    I'd note that the survey is based on current PCI. There are still plenty of their earlier slabs around from an era when they were legitimate.

    Russ, NCNE
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'd note that the survey is based on current PCI. There are still plenty of their earlier slabs around from an era when they were legitimate. >>

    Should eBay differentiate between slabs generations and slab age?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Do PCI and SEGS have authenticity guarantees? >>

    I just checked the PCI and SEGS websites. Neither one seems to have an authenticity guarantee.

    In some discussions people have mentioned a guarantee should be required to be considered certified. Seems like eBay is listening. Requiring an authenticity guarantee is also an objective way to differentiate grading services which can help defend eBay from suits.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The timing of this couldn't be better. Excluding all these third world slabs at a time when
    the supply of many moderns is apparently getting very thin will educate buyers and pro-
    tect them from some unscrupulous sellers. It will also have the effect of highlighting just
    how thin the supply is of a lot of the moderns.
    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Its true. There should be some good bargains on lower tier slabs this week. >>



    Yep. they'll have pictures from across the room and be labeled MS70. Probably worth pocket change.
  • I will be curious to see if feeBay insists on showing the certification number on the slab in the pic.
    I'd keep playing. I don't think the heavy stuff will be coming down for quite a while!
  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
    Still waiting to see ANYTHING resembling an official announcement or policy on this... thus far its all rumour.
  • If this is not just rumor, the only thing that SEEMS to be changing is that unless the coin is graded / certified by the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS), Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), Independent Coin Grading (ICG), ANACS, the coin cannot claim to be certified in the title of the auction.
    That’s it?
    Well, here’s a tip boys and girls: If it does not say “certified” in the title, be wary.
    Even before this rule takes affect- if this rule takes affect- if you see a coin description that says “certified” and it’s not slabbed, do you take it seriously?
    How about if it’s guarantied MS-70 by Sloppy Joe’s Used Coin Grading Emporium? No, you do not take it as the “Gospel Truth.”
    The only people this will effect is the uninformed collector and sad to say, no matter how many rules you write or laws you enact, these people will still find a way to get taken advantage of until they take the time to become informed.
    J.Cordeiro
    image
    "I has a bucket." - Minazo.
    Minazo the LOLRUS, 1994-2005
    image
  • Yeah, you know any dumb cluck, joe schmoe will still be able to sell garbage with just a little more effort.


  • << <i>Still waiting to see ANYTHING resembling an official announcement or policy on this... thus far its all rumour. >>



    No kidding. There's nothing except the original post, and the edit to that saying "it's true". Hello?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • 500Bay500Bay Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭
    I have no idea if this is true or not.

    I do hope it is true, although some debate could be had over which services can be included as OK (I agree with the big 4).

    The key to this will be a separate section for certified coins in E-bay. Without that the lack of the word "certified" in the description will be easy to overcome for the scammers.

    Finem Respice
  • I haven't been doing this as long as you guys, but is this really a big deal for us collectors. I know it encroaches on the domain of NGC and PCGS, so this is a good move for the business of grading.

    From what I see, SGS and the others get raw prices anyways. I've never seen an auction where an SGS coin gets the price of an NGC/PCGS. I rarely see auctions where an ICG gets PCGS prices.

    The fact that my ebay search for "MS70" or "(PF,PR)70" returns a subset or coins from certain graders, doesn't help me. It helps those grading companies protect their business.

    What are you guys seeing, that I'm not?
  • joefrojoefro Posts: 1,872 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>This could, if true, make for some very interesting lawsuits. Numismatics has no generally accepted grading standard. >>



    How could there be lawsuits? Ebay runs their own show, they can allow or prohibit as they see fit. They could say no slabbed coins at all if they really wanted to. If true, they are taking a cut in profits to make their online market a "safer" place. Kudos to them if so. >>




    M O N O P O L Y

    Restriction of trade >>



    Monopoly? For who, eBay or the TPGs? Technically restricting to a small number of TPGs would be an oligopoly of grading companies. eBay has dealt with monopoly lawsuit threats several times before. eBay can choose to allow or disallow sales of anything they want on their own site. Pepsi can't sue a restaurant for selling Coca-Cola products instead of theirs. It's their decision. Good riddance!
    Lincoln Cent & Libertad Collector
  • gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I can not confirm nor deny... it was posted on CCE just a few minutes ago..... my guess is that its probably true! >>



    A rumor, and then an advertisment for your show.
    From Wikepedia:
    "In Hebrew, chutzpah is used indignantly, to describe someone who has over-stepped the boundaries of accepted behavior with no shame."
    image
    image
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>A rumor... >>

    No longer a rumor, according to the edited/updated first post in this thread.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508
    AWESOME!!!!
  • Regarding the limits of the TPG's being recognized...this is nothing new for auction sites... Heritage and Teletrade will only allow certain TPG coins in their auctions... I see no room here for law suits...at least none that should hold up in any courtroom...
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭
    This policy is wrong on many levels. I understand what they are trying to accomplish, but here are a few of my sticking points...

    1) Must have a picture in the slab, both front and back. - This just costs money and I cna't get the picture of the coin large enough so I have to buy more pictures. In the rare case of an NGC PhotoCert, what, exactly, do I take a picture of?

    2) You can't mention dollar value, even if it's your opinion if the coin is raw. I understand that it is to stop using PCGS price guide, but there are other items where listing some value might be needed.

    3) Ok, so I have a PCI holder that I want to sell. I can't even mention that it is in a PCI holder in the description.

    4) What's the big deal if you put a grade in the title? You can put it in the description, so what difference does it make?
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>1) Must have a picture in the slab, both front and back. - This just costs money and I cna't get the picture of the coin large enough so I have to buy more pictures. >>

    It's not hard to use image editing software to combine multiple pictures into one image.


  • << <i>

    << <i>A rumor... >>

    No longer a rumor, according to the edited/updated first post in this thread. >>



    A rumor is no longer a rumor just because it's edited?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This policy is wrong on many levels. I understand what they are trying to accomplish, but here are a few of my sticking points...

    1) Must have a picture in the slab, both front and back. - This just costs money and I cna't get the picture of the coin large enough so I have to buy more pictures. In the rare case of an NGC PhotoCert, what, exactly, do I take a picture of?

    2) You can't mention dollar value, even if it's your opinion if the coin is raw. I understand that it is to stop using PCGS price guide, but there are other items where listing some value might be needed.

    3) Ok, so I have a PCI holder that I want to sell. I can't even mention that it is in a PCI holder in the description.

    4) What's the big deal if you put a grade in the title? You can put it in the description, so what difference does it make? >>




    1- Use HTML code to add an img src tag to a photo hosted outside of Ebay. Zero cost

    2- Few here, or otherwise good sellers, need to list $ value. Most use it improperly in any case.

    3- Unknown, since no policy yet officially stated.

    4- Because of the "search titles" function? Because it is one less way to solicit the unaware/ unwary? I don't know, but a policy has to start somewhere...
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>A rumor is no longer a rumor just because it's edited? >>


    No- a rumor is no longer a rumor based on what was added with the edit.

    NOW CONFIRMED SEE EMAIL BELOW

    Dear Jon,

    Thank you for writing eBay in regard to our policies concerning the sale
    of coins.

    You are indeed correct that our policies will be changing shortly. On
    September 17th our policy page regarding the sale of coins and currency
    will be updated to include the following information.

    When listing a certified coin, the coin must be certified by one of the
    following authorized grading companies:

    * Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC)
    * Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS)
    * Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS)
    * Independent Coin Grading (ICG)
    * ANACS

    In addition, listings for certified coins:

    * Must be assigned the appropriate grading attributes in each listing.
    Sellers must select the appropriate grading attributes within the Sell
    Your Item form, including "Grading Company," "Grade" and "Serial Number"
    provided with that grading.

    * The listing must include an image of the item, showing the coin in its
    graded holder, front and back.

    If the coin listed is not certified by one of the above authorized
    grading companies, the coin is considered raw/uncertified and is subject
    to additional requirements for their sale.

    A raw or uncertified coin is defined as any coin not graded by one of
    the authorized grading companies. Sellers are permitted to list these
    items on eBay under the following conditions:
    * A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as
    MS-65, VF-25, etc. A numeric grade may only be included in the
    description of the listing.
    * The grading company or price guide is not referenced in the title or
    description.
    * A dollar value (even if personal opinion) is not included in the title
    or description.

    As of this time the policy is not being enforced and enforcement may not
    be immediate as we work to make sure everything is working correctly.

    We thank you in advance for your cooperation, and wish you luck with
    your future eBay transactions.

    Sincerely,
    Akira

    eBay Customer Support


    An alternative theory could be that the original poster made up that eBay email, so I suppose it's up to you (in general) to decide what you think about it. image
  • So now that it's fact, the bogus TPGs will have to dump all their inventory by the 17th, or crack thousands of slabs.image
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,252 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So now that it's fact, the bogus TPGs will have to dump all their inventory by the 17th, or crack thousands of slabs.image >>

    They can still sell "STD MS70's" on eBay. They just can't sell them and list them as "certified".
  • The eBay email, that was just added, indicates that this is a real thingie.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • They just called me today and siad it was only 5 TPG's allowed in the title.

    p.s. image
  • This new policy should finally get rid of all those bad slabs - just like their rule against counterfeits got rid of all the Chinese fakes. Give me a break. Nothing has changed. Those slabs are not banned and can and will still be sold on Ebay. The only thing different is now it's more inconvenient for everyone to list our legitimate items. Just another annoyance that does nothing to keep ebay safe for the collector. They aren't even going to enforce the rules at first so I wouldn't expect to see any changes at all for now. Even when they do start to enforce it I think they'll do about as good a job policing it as they do with the Chinese fakes.
  • tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This policy is wrong on many levels. I understand what they are trying to accomplish, but here are a few of my sticking points...

    1) Must have a picture in the slab, both front and back. - This just costs money and I cna't get the picture of the coin large enough so I have to buy more pictures. In the rare case of an NGC PhotoCert, what, exactly, do I take a picture of?
    2) You can't mention dollar value, even if it's your opinion if the coin is raw. I understand that it is to stop using PCGS price guide, but there are other items where listing some value might be needed.
    3) Ok, so I have a PCI holder that I want to sell. I can't even mention that it is in a PCI holder in the description.
    4) What's the big deal if you put a grade in the title? You can put it in the description, so what difference does it make? >>





    << <i>1- Use HTML code to add an img src tag to a photo hosted outside of Ebay. Zero cost >>


    Except the added cost of an imaging hosting site (I know some are free, but I haven't had as good of luck with picture quality).


    << <i>2- Few here, or otherwise good sellers, need to list $ value. Most use it improperly in any case. >>


    Except the fact that many top auction houses use estimated values. Why is this different? It's also called marketing. You know, to get a higher price? It's not always to rip someone off.


    << <i>3- Unknown, since no policy yet officially stated. >>


    True, but in that I trust the OP and the email that he received, it states that you cannot mention the lower tier grading company.


    << <i>4- Because of the "search titles" function? Because it is one less way to solicit the unaware/ unwary? I don't know, but a policy has to start somewhere... >>


    If you only search titles by grade #, then you are missing out on a TON of auctions. Some don't put it in the title. If that's the best thing you can come up with, your arguement is pointless. The seller can still list the grade in the description and rightfully so.

    These new policies are going to throw the baby out with the bath water. They are, in many cases, going to make it difficult to sell a "non-standard" coin. I typically sell medals and tokens most of which are raw. Some are PhotoCert by NGC. This would prevent me from listing a picture in a holder because they are not in a holder. Also, many are obscure and listing a value can sometimes promote buyers who might not know the rarity. As mentioned above, they have also excluded foreign TPGs.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    A raw or uncertified coin is defined as any coin not graded by one of
    the authorized grading companies. Sellers are permitted to list these
    items on eBay under the following conditions:
    * A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as
    MS-65, VF-25, etc. A numeric grade may only be included in the
    description of the listing.
    * The grading company or price guide is not referenced in the title or
    description.
    * A dollar value (even if personal opinion) is not included in the title
    or description.
    >>




    I understand what they're trying to do but those last two points seem a little draconian. And if I'm PCI or SEGS I'm on the phone screaming at someone over this.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with TMot's post above......ebay doesn't know what they are doing in this arena and I believe they are overreacting and will cause more problems than it solves.


    I also agree with SeanQ above.....if there is no grade, why not be able to list SEGS or PCI (or whoever) in the title......at that point, you are saying it is slabbed/logo'ed but you are stopping short of a grade.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,109 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    I understand what they're trying to do but those last two points seem a little draconian. And if I'm PCI or SEGS I'm on the phone screaming at someone over this.


    Sean Reynolds >>



    Boo Freaking Hoo. Why don't they start grading properly instead?


  • << <i>

    << <i>PCI, SEGS, and ICCS should NOT be excluded from the allowable slab company list. That's just braindead! >>

    2007 PNG Survey Results

    Outstanding:
    Superior: NGC, PCGS
    Good: ANACS, ICG
    Poor: PCI, SEGS
    Unacceptable: ACCGS, ACG, HCGS, NTC, SGS

    You mean it's braindead to exclude grading services that professional numismatists rank as "poor"?

    Do PCI and SEGS have authenticity guarantees?.....Zoins >>




    Zoins, can you cite even one example of a fake in a SEGS slab?
    You can argue that they overgrade a point or 2, but they don't slab fake coins!

    Ray
  • I am amazed at the number of people on here that must get scammed everyday by somebody. Now they have momma eBay looking out for them. I trust myself to know what I am buying and to buy what I want, slabbed or not.

  • CoinlearnerCoinlearner Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know it is going to be a major help for most buyers, for whatever reasons, run into trouble in buying coins. They are still going to have to do some of their own homework, and make sure of a return policy available. As a sometime seller will have to jump through moreimage.......Extra money for 2 pictures...cannot list a "stock"photo for common slabs....I like to cover up the 70"s numbers so no one can use for registry purposes.. image

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