guess the grade? UPDATE!!

dizzle · July 19, 2007 4:07AM

well i sent the card in to bgs 2 day service and i got the email saying order has been shipped..so i then go to the bgs site to see what grade i got and sure enough the dreaded CARD RESTORED!! boy what a dissapointment. it measured up when compared to the others and the surface looked legit as well? so anyway i check the sellers other items he has sold and bought and i notice he sells graded cards but only graded by gem. so now im guessing the card probally was trimmed. i opened a claim through paypal hopefully i get all my money back. at 100% pos. feedback powerseller i wasn't expecting this. since this was one of the larger purchases i have made i'm pretty bummed.

hey all, looking for some opinions on what you think this card will grade? you think it may have a shot at a 9? sorry for the crappy pic. but it is the one from the auction. i recently bought a complete set of 86 fleer off ebay and now just waiting for it to show up.

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Clemaz · July 19, 2007 4:10AM

7- Top left corner looks soft.

jerrywest45 · July 19, 2007 4:10AM

Looks pretty clean, probably a solid 8. Well centered!

How much you pay for the set...if you don't mind me asking.

psafan · July 19, 2007 4:12AM

trimmed - left edge

dizzle · July 19, 2007 4:13AM

i got a complete set minus the stickers for 785.00 shipped. you think thats a fair price?

dizzle · July 19, 2007 4:15AM

<< trimmed - left edge >>

really. you think so? i hope not when it arrives i'll be able to tell.. i paid through paypal with my credit card so i have a little protection.

digicat · July 19, 2007 4:30AM

Ugh, possibly trimmed, as psafan says, left side.

From the scan, it looks like the left edge isn't perfectly straight, and kinda curves in ever-so-slightly towards the white area, then goes back out.

If you've got a photo editing program, copy a horizontal cross section of the card up around the top border, then drag that layer down all the way to the bottom. It'll show the slight curve.

It's possible that the card is just slightly warped and showing up kinda odd in the scan, but I'd be nervous.

BigDaddyBowman · July 19, 2007 4:44AM

To me it looks like the right side is trimmed

FavreFan1971 · July 19, 2007 4:48AM

you are all wrong. It is his mustache that is trimmed.

EagleEyeKid · July 19, 2007 5:19AM

I don't think the card is trimmed. In fact, I think it's very clean pending
no surface flaws. The corners look great, and I don't see any white on the
corners. It looks like a solid 9 to me. The card looks squared enough unless
it's just a tad bit slanted place in your scanner. Good luck to you.

dizzle · July 19, 2007 6:02AM

EagleEye.. Thanks for the encouraging words!! i hope you right. since i don't have it in hand i can't be 100% but it should be here any time now.

Mrcardsniper · July 19, 2007 6:06AM

My guess is a 8 due to the slight crooked cut and corners

EagleEyeKid · July 19, 2007 6:07AM

since i don't have it in hand

oops, thought it was in your possession.
Regardless, keep us updated. GL

digicat · July 19, 2007 6:08AM

A while back, I had an OJ Simpson rookie that I worried might be a fake. I sent it in to PSA, they said PSA 9. So, what do I know.

ebayaddict · July 19, 2007 6:08AM

Straight 8....................

perkdog · July 19, 2007 6:20AM

It looks ok to me as far as it looking trimmed goes, the outline helps

meuandthelot · July 19, 2007 7:53AM

These always worry me, Compiled by Envoy.
http://sportscardforum.com/showthread.php?t=199807

CDsNuts · July 19, 2007 8:04AM

I say the card is legit, untrimmed, and has a 50/50 chance at coming back a 9.

Allen · July 19, 2007 8:31AM

Counterfeit, the fleer premier flag color is wrong.

Allen · July 19, 2007 8:47AM

The flag should be a different color than the bar. It should be more of a Mustard yellow. Here is an example of a Counterfeit Jordan side by side with a legit fleer card. Look at the flag logos.

Here is a blow up of a legit Flag.

A Counterfeit flag.

And the flag from the Jordan you purchased.

handyman · July 19, 2007 9:01AM

Fake

ldferg · July 19, 2007 9:06AM

i'm going to go with allen on this and say it's not legit.

CDsNuts · July 19, 2007 9:21AM

There are a number of different kinds of fakes. For instance, look at the "23" on Allen's example- clearly a different card than the one dizzle bought, and also a different fake than the one in envoy's post.

I still say it's real. I found dizzle's auction and from the pictures, you really can't tell if the flag is a different shade on some of them. Here's the Wilkins:

dizzle · July 19, 2007 10:06AM

cd... i agree the pic is much clear than the one allen and envoy are reffering to. its not as grainy also on the counterfeit fleer logo allen showed the yellow strip that says "premier" has a blue line where the for fork is mine does not judging by the colors and how the pic is not grainy i say real...but we will see

dizzle · July 19, 2007 10:36AM

here's a pic of mine side by side with allens mines on the left fake on the right

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nam812 · July 19, 2007 1:24PM

In Allens fake, is it just me, or does Jordan's left arm (without the ball) look ridiculously bulged?

envoy98 · July 19, 2007 1:29PM

<< Counterfeit, the fleer premier flag color is wrong. >>

Exactly what I was going to say. I really don't think that card is real. Sorry.

Here is a link to an article I did on counterfeit Jordan's.

I see Rich posted it without a link. (Thanks Rich)

SCF - Counterfiets - Jordan & More

Here are some links to beckett as well, some of the links in my original post don't work any longer.

Fleer Logo

Here is a real MJ

..and a fake (Albeit blurry) The logo isn't the only way to tell.

Each highlighted point is described in detail here:
The front of the card -
1. The Fleer Logo - The easiest thing to spot with the naked eye, though not a guarantee so look at other things as well.
A. The turn-down on the banner should be a darker orange color than the yellow part that "Premier" is printed in. There are fakes with a darker orange so use other guidelines as
well.
B. Also notice the red crown...on the real card the points are quite sharp, the word "Fleer" is more sharp and doesn't seem to have the fuzzy edges it also is a different font. The
real one is quite sharp with sharp corners on the letters vs a more "bubble-like" font. The color is also a bolder red.

2. The red and blue color on the border should have a definite separation. Notice the fake card has a "blurry" effect. Also notice how deep the color is on the real card and how bold the colors are.

3. The "Chicago" on MJ's jersey - Notice how blurry the Chicago is, it's sometimes noticed on the fakes that the dot over the letter "i" looks attached to the name as opposed tot he real card where there is a noticeable separation. it also will appear that the loop in the letter "o" is closed off

4. The Nameplate - Notice the difference in the color blue here. almost a dark blue vs. a baby blue.
You'll also notice that the name, team, position all is more "blurry" than a real card. The font looks more "bubbly" on the fake than on the real card and the corners on the letters aren't near as sharp on the counterfeit. (similar to the "Fleer Crown in #1A)

5. The black borders - This same technique, will work on all but the most sophisticated counterfeits. If you have a loupe/magnifying glass, take a look at the black printed lines. In printing, ink is laid on a plate and then put onto the stock, it is not "printed in dots" like most consumer printers do it. (dot-matrix/bubble-jet).
What you will notice under magnification (see the beckett article for a good example of this) is that the black line is not a solid black line, but rather a bunch of small black dots put together to make line. If it's not solid, it's a print and therefore, it's a fake. A 100% dead giveaway.

On to the back of the card - just in case you're still not convinced it's real or fake.
6. The Bulls Eyes-On the real card, you can see the separation between red and white..the bulls eyes on a genuine card, will be "open". You may need a loupe to see it definitively, but there should be a white pupil in the logo.

7. The back coloring - notice how pink the back is on the real card, vs a more faded pink, almost peach color on the counterfeit. This is true on the top half as well. bold red vs. faded almost pink color.

8. The copyright (C) and restrictred (R) trademark logos - On the real card, the (R) and (C) should stay entirely in the pink at the bottom of the card and the (C) should align with the text "1986 Fleer ..." On the fake, the (R) is half on the pink, half in the white border. On many fakes, not this one though, the (C) will be half off as well, similar to the (R)

9. NBA Properties Logo - You should be able to read the text "NBA" and the text around the ball with the naked eye. On the fake, it's a blur that just sorta looks like the logo, but it's not readable.

10. The Fleer Crown again - notice the font of the word fleer, you can also make out the (R) that was printed on the real card, the word fleer also stands out against the blue crown vs being a very weak presentation on the fake.

prscott933 · July 19, 2007 1:35PM

<< In Allens fake, is it just me, or does Jordan's left arm (without the ball) look ridiculously bulged? >>

saw that too. must be the bonds variation... fake and bloated

CDsNuts · July 19, 2007 1:41PM

envoy, the point I was trying to make was that I don't think the guy's scanner picks up the change in color all that well. Look at the Dominique Wilkins pic from the same auction.

envoy98 · July 19, 2007 1:42PM

Oh and a dead giveway, without a loupe, is to look at the copyright logo on the back. If it's off the pink and into the white border, it's a definite fake. Not all fakes have this flaw, but all that have this flaw are fakes... Most on ebay do and it's a dead giveaway.

cravetopps · July 19, 2007 1:44PM

<<saw that too. must be the bonds variation... fake and bloated>>>

Can't wait for the next whipping boy. The Bonds stuff is getting very tiresome. BTW, speaking of Bonds, don't forget to watch the replays of those two monster HRs tonight.

prscott933 · July 19, 2007 1:46PM

i've been whipping him since 1987

it's actually not as fun these days

envoy98 · July 19, 2007 1:50PM

<< envoy, the point I was trying to make was that I don't think the guy's scanner picks up the change in color all that well. Look at the Dominique Wilkins pic from the same auction. >>

The flag can be a tough one from scans. Which is why I pointed out some of the other more obvious flaws with the fakes that don't require color matching or a loupe. Holding it in your hand makes life much easier...but good scans can easily tell the story.

RipublicaninMass · July 19, 2007 2:28PM

Thnaks for the good post! I got burned on a few fake HUll RC's back in the day.

dizzle · July 19, 2007 2:29PM

<< 

<< envoy, the point I was trying to make was that I don't think the guy's scanner picks up the change in color all that well. Look at the Dominique Wilkins pic from the same auction. >>

The flag can be a tough one from scans. Which is why I pointed out some of the other more obvious flaws with the fakes that don't require color matching or a loupe. Holding it in your hand makes life much easier...but good scans can easily tell the story. >>

so judging by just the scan what besides the fleer logo leads you to believe. the one i purchased is a fake?

cravetopps · July 19, 2007 2:31PM

very good stuff, envoy98. Very helpful. Hopefully, dizzle is still alive.

dizzle · July 19, 2007 2:38PM

<< very good stuff, envoy98. Very helpful. Hopefully, dizzle is still alive. >>

very well alive i just posted before you ..i don't know i just don't see it?? i have owned a few jordan rc's and have seen 4 different versions of fakes as well.. and i feel its a legit card i'm aware of all the different counterfeits as well as the signs of the fakes and i don't see it in this one.

envoy98 · July 19, 2007 3:11PM

It's always tough to tell from scans, especially without pics of the back. I am very leery of the one you purchased, I hope I'm wrong though. If you can get a scan of the back, that would help. Also, keep in mind that the seller can easily scan a real Jordan and send you a fake one. When I was moderating over on SCF, I can't tell you how many times that happened. Although it's more surprising how many people will just scan the fake ones and sell them. Most guys that had purchased an obvious fake, sat and argued with me that it wasn't a fake...I can tell you, I don't think I was wrong once. Yours, I'm not 100% certain, but part of that is the scan. It might be the reason the background looks grainy. As for Allens scan, I hadn't seen a fake with such a bad "23" before. That is a new one for me.

At any rate, when you get it, if you want to post higher res scans of the front and back, I can be of more help. Shoot me a pm when you get it if you'd like and I'd be happy to take a look at it.

dizzle · July 19, 2007 3:49PM

<< It's always tough to tell from scans, especially without pics of the back. I am very leery of the one you purchased, I hope I'm wrong though. If you can get a scan of the back, that would help. Also, keep in mind that the seller can easily scan a real Jordan and send you a fake one. When I was moderating over on SCF, I can't tell you how many times that happened. Although it's more surprising how many people will just scan the fake ones and sell them. Most guys that had purchased an obvious fake, sat and argued with me that it wasn't a fake...I can tell you, I don't think I was wrong once. Yours, I'm not 100% certain, but part of that is the scan. It might be the reason the background looks grainy. As for Allens scan, I hadn't seen a fake with such a bad "23" before. That is a new one for me.

At any rate, when you get it, if you want to post higher res scans of the front and back, I can be of more help. Shoot me a pm when you get it if you'd like and I'd be happy to take a look at it. >>

ok sounds good..when it arrives i will update and post some better pics.

jmbkb4 · July 19, 2007 3:50PM

jmbkb4 · July 19, 2007 4:03PM

at PRO grading

Allen · July 19, 2007 4:27PM

My jordan looks funny because it moved while on the scanner. It took me a minute to figure why the arm and numbers looked that way. I will rescan.

Allen · July 19, 2007 4:35PM

This is the Jordan when he is not soaring through the air while on my scanner, though it did make his arms look jacked.

dizzle · July 25, 2007 5:05AM

well ups just dropped off the set..the jordan is 100% authentic. it measures up as well so i'm gonna send it in my guess probally a 7. i still have to go through the rest of the set and see if there is anything else grade worthy and will post pics if i find any..for now heres a pic of the jordan with my scanner

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EagleEyeKid · July 25, 2007 5:17AM

Great! There is a little more noticeable white this time
than the initial scan. Flag and the word Premier are clear and looks great.
I think you can probably still pull an 8 on it. Good luck.

dizzle · July 25, 2007 5:21AM

thanks!! yeah i would be happy with a 8 we'll see how it goes. so far going through the set lots of really sharp cards just oc.

stown · July 25, 2007 5:22AM

<< Great! There is a little more noticeable white this time
than the initial scan. Flag and the word Premier are clear and looks great.
I think you can probably still pull an 8 on it. Good luck. >>

However, with a cleaner scan, the corners look just a tad softer... I say easily a 7 with a shot at an 8.

Good luck

CDsNuts · July 25, 2007 5:41AM

OK, all of you who said it was fake owe me $5.

Glad it worked out for you dizzle, although I'd be a little pissed because it looks like the seller might have photoshopped the corners to take the white out, or at least manipulated the tint of the picture to put it in a favorable light. Regardless, the centering is awesome and you got a good deal. I think it still could be an 8, but if it's a 7 it would bring hi-end 7 money because most of them are OC.

Lee

dizzle · July 25, 2007 11:40AM

Thanks. Lee..yeah i agree about the pic. I should have asked for a single scan of the card with a dark background or something but i found the auction just minutes after being listed and thought someone might pick it up if i don't..i may of jumped the gun but the card does have great centering. overall it was a pretty nice set there was a dead centered johnny moore #76 thats razor sharp but has a big print dot. which is too bad thats cards a pretty tough one in high grade..

dizzle · August 1, 2007 2:53AM

updated results on first page.

EagleEyeKid · August 1, 2007 3:40AM

Man, that sucks. I hope you get your money back.
He should recoup your submission fee as well.

guess the grade? UPDATE!!

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