Ok, here is an obviously cleaned PCGS coin....still slabbed? WHY

tsacch

Because of its rarity I imagine. Your thoughts on PCGS letting it slide. Come on a VF clean as a whistle?

Cleaned early dollar.

Wolf359

Most early stuff is cleaned and PCGS slabs them. I'm not sure where the line ends, 1850's?

Newcomp103

Is it one of those that (sorry KEETS...) is considered "Market Acceptable"?

ccmorgan

I like the estimate. $1 to $1,000,000.

IRCWCoins

There are plenty of improperly cleaned coins in NGC and PCGS holders. I see a lot of obviously cleaned ones in Teletrade auctions.

tsacch

Sorry, but that one is just "too cleaned" if there is such a thing.

fivecents

Pcgs states in their grading standards, under Designations and ungradable coins and I quote:

"PCGS does not grade coins that are counterfiet, have been artifically toned, have their surfaces altered, have been enviromentally damaged, have been abrasively cleaned, have extremely large scratches, or have been repaired. Some allowances are made for ultra rarities, colonials, and territorial gold coins, in which there are some instances when "net grading" is used by PCGS as a service to the numismatic comunity.

Longacre

Cleaned coins get into holders all the time. It's nothing new.

andyisbak

<< <i>Cleaned coins get into holders all the time. It's nothing new. >>





i sent a coin 1st time cleaned, 2nd cleaned, third ms62...

robkool

I see that as hard to believe... Why would they... It would just defeat it's purpose. Then again, I've seen gold coins, and some silver pieces getting slabed by PCGS that were recovered as ship wreck coins. Sea salvaged coins that were either pitted, or cleaned.

roadrunner

Cleaned coins rarely made it into holders in the 1980's. Today it's much different. The huge amount of demand for early dollars requires that enough coins be slabbed....even if cleaned at one time. Call it cleanflation. Standards will keep slipping backwards.

roadrunner

Myqqy

The inconsistency about cleaning coins being in holders has always made me scratch my head. And I think once a cleaned coin gets in a slab, it rarely leaves..

ziggy29

Draped Bust and Flowing Hair coinage gets a LOT more leeway than more recent coins. It takes a harsh cleaning or a lot of damage to get them bodybagged; otherwise, they tend to get "net graded" without any indication of such.

Elcontador

Revier's book on early dollars says something like 80% of all surviving Bust $s -- slabbed or not -- have been cleaned. Where the TPGs draw the line re the extent of cleaning that they deem 'acceptable' is anyone's guess. If they didn't slab any cleaned ones, the cost for the one's with original skins would be even more obscene than it is now.

DHeath

Standards will keep slipping backwards.

roadrunner

They're just making room for the next gunslinger that promises to grade to a tougher standard.

originalisbest

Still though, for early dollars I agree with them giving them slack - almost none would be graded if they operated at normal post-1900 cleaning strictness (to randomly place a year.)

tsacch

Standards.....slipping backward.......ah hah.....that was what I was after.

Do they Cam earlier proofs with different standards too?

DHeath

Actually, I agree, and would prefer all services net grade if necessary and say so on the holder. The buyer would immediately know the coin was appraised as a problem coin, and the seller would get their money's worth from their submission. Cleaned early dollars are still very collectible, and to exclude them because they won't holder would be silly, IMO.

al410

Most of these are cleaned and alot of coins have toned over and are not as noticable. I like the coin and have read alot about practices that were acceptable and even encouraged years ago, so I now realize that many many great coins have been cleaned and toned over as years pass. Now the standard is to not clean coins but years ago shiney was good. Wonder what the standard will be 20 years from now?

AL

tmot99

According to the top guys at PCGS, their standards have never changed.

I do think that this is what makes TPGs a joke. It's very hypocritical to say they will bag problem coins, well except when it's a really rare coin or where we can get enough publicity from it. PCGS claims to take the higher road, and then is caught hanging out with the lowest tier grading services.

tsacch

<< <i>According to the top guys at PCGS, their standards have never changed >>

Yeah......right.....not changed a tick.

al410

Perfection does not exist, i think PCGS does a great job, better then the others, but I do not expect perfection just for them to be the best. I also am not nieve enough to believe that market acceptable does not exist.
JMO


AL

DHeath

PCGS does what PCGS does pretty well, which is to add value with their holder. When I want to sell a coin, I try to put it in one of their holders (with the right number on it). JMO

Frankcoins

Even museums regularly scrubbed coins well into the 1950s. Basically all pre 1820 material has been cleaned multiple times or else it's
black as a piece of coal.

numobri

Rarity will help a cleaned coin.

Bust dollars have a large enough collecter base to make an unmessed with coin worth extra money.

You will pay near full money to get a NICE(cleaned) coin.

JMO.


Brian

chiefbob

I guess this is a dead horse being beaten again, but I wonder why PCGS doesn't slab a "properly" cleaned coin with a net grade? ANACS gives the net grade based on "details". If the coin hasn't been harshly cleaned and has good eye appeal, why not?

You also have the euphemism of "conservation". If I lightly clean a coin versus it being expertly cleaned in an NGC lab, mine won't get slabbed by PCGS. Perhaps not by NGC, either.

All PCGS has to do is label the "conservation" as such on the holder and be honest about it, rather than sending the coin back in a BB.

PLEASE REMEMBER THOSE BRAVE SOLDIERS WHO HAVE GIVEN THEIR LIVES OVER THE LAST TWO HUNDRED YEARS TO KEEP OUR COUNTRY FREE.

PerryHall

<< <i>I wonder why PCGS doesn't slab a "properly" cleaned coin with a net grade? >>


They do it all the time. If a coin is XF40 but has a minor problem such as a very light cleaning, they will down grade it as a VF35.

coinkat

This coin was enhanced and it is not a coin I would want in my collection. Having said that, I have no problem with PCGS or any TPG service slabbing a coin like this.

Here is where I see the problem:

If I have a nice original Bust Dollar in a VF30 holder and the usual suspects using a certain publication are only willing to pay a price without taking into consideration the difference between my original coin and the coin attached to this thread. I paid a fee to obtain an opinion as to the state of preservation of my coin and if my coin gets the same grade, without an explanation as to the difference between my coin and the one pictured here, then there is something terribly wrong.

Folks... an original surfaces designation is long overdue and yet this is another thread that just illustrates my point.

For those of you who are tired of my ranting about this for years... look elsewhere for an apology

keets

certain words in the English language don't need adjectives to help them be understood, words like dead and naked come to mind. that's how i see the word "cleaned" when it comes to coins and the major grading services, yet they insist on using the descriptor improperly/harshly when they BB a coin. that tells me that they view a properly cleaned coin as OK, certainly a bad thing from the purists point of view. this also begs an answer to the age old question as to whether or not a dipped coin is cleaned, but the services like to help that term with an adjective when they say improperly dipped, hinting again that there is a proper way to dip a coin.

this just gets me confused.

ricko

Standards change... that is a fact. At one time, toning was NOT desirable, and shiny coins WERE desirable... the 'state of aesthetics' is different today - and it will change in the future. Perfection - absolute conformance to your desired standard - is hard to come by, and expensive. Also, aesthetics are very difficult to define. Absolutes are not appreciated by humans. We always push the envelope. As tastes change, so do standards. Just look at advertising today... fifty years ago, half of what you see would not pass the censors. So too with numismatics. Collect to YOUR standards... Cheers, RickO

tsacch

I think that coin was harshly cleaned.....its bright and its a VF?