Another Jeter debate thread because some just dont know how to have a little fun...
yankeeno7
Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
because with 2 outs and runners in scoring position, he is only 13 for 20 (.600) so far this season. I hope they trade him before the season is over because he is holding the Yankees back.
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Comments
<< <i>Another reason why those who are always saying Jeter is overrated don't know what they're talking about. >>
Not necessarily. Someone can be a great player and still be overrated. IMO, Jeter qualifies on both counts.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>clutch boy go NA-NIGHT >>
I will love to see the day to day Sox fan who rides evey moment when they collapse in October .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Bosox1976
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Kisses,
Tinkerbell
He must have found Giambis stash of roids!
You right, I thnk Jeter may have more rings than URANUS..
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Jeter is going to leave Ted Williams in the dust with base hits. That will pi$$ off Sox fans even more. GOOD
Considering he missed almost 5 seasons to military service it wont be a real comparison when his career ends, So I think not.
<< <i>
Considering he missed almost 5 seasons to military service it wont be a real comparison when his career ends, So I think not. >>
The way Jeter is progressing you can give Ted 200 hits for every year missed and Jeter will still be on top in the end. But hey, keep trying to diminish the GREAT player that Jeter is.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
<< <i>
Considering he missed almost 5 seasons to military service it wont be a real comparison when his career ends, So I think not. >>
The way Jeter is progressing you can give Ted 200 hits for every year missed and Jeter will still be on top in the end. But hey, keep trying to diminish the GREAT player that Jeter is.
Now Dan that is going a bit too far, You see me on here all the time and I have NEVER once downplayed what a great player Jeter is, in fact I like the guy. What you will NEVER see however, is me saying he is as good as Ted Williams though.
But hey, Jeter is getting BETTER every year. How do you know how his career will end up? He is a base hit machine like no other Yankee has been. To try and tear him down is just as STUPID as my splendid splinter comments. I will give you that .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Point well taken Paul,
But hey, Jeter is getting BETTER every year. How do you know how his career will end up? He is a base hit machine like no other Yankee has been. To try and tear him down is just as STUPID as my splendid splinter comments. I will give you that ..... >>
Now Dan, how can you say that? Jeter getting better? Don't you see the title of this thread? We know the only way Jeter will go to the HOF is if he buys his own ticket!
I don't think even Michael Kay (Yankee announcer and Jeter rear-end kisser extraordinare) is that nuts.
<< <i>Okay - I held my tongue long enough while you guys were having your weekly Jeter love-fest. But to compare him to the single greatest hitter ever to play the game?
I don't think even Michael Kay (Yankee announcer and Jeter rear-end kisser extraordinare) is that nuts. >>
CTSox, you couldnt be more right! Thank you for bringing this to our attention! Trade him now!!!
<< <i>Okay - I held my tongue long enough while you guys were having your weekly Jeter love-fest. But to compare him to the single greatest hitter ever to play the game?
I don't think even Michael Kay (Yankee announcer and Jeter rear-end kisser extraordinare) is that nuts. >>
I didn't see anyone compare Jeter to Babe Ruth...
<< <i>Who knows?? In a few years when he matures, Jeter could be as good a hitter as Ichiro. >>
: applause :
Jeter is a great ball player who will enter the HOF on the first ballot. He is also a lousy defensive shortstop. According to any object measurement (not the slobbering of Jeter lovers), he is somewhere bwtween below average and truly awful. As a hitter, he is an offensive force for a shortsop; he does not approach Ted Williams in offensice ability. He is not the best offensive player on his team; I bet there are at least 20 better offensive players in MLB right now, maybe more.
<< <i>Where do you get the fact that he is a "truly awful" fielder??? >>
Probably from "any object measurement".
1. Baseball Prospectus
2. The Fielding Bible
3. Society for American Baseball Research
4. Bill James (See his Win Shares book).
5. Rob Neyer-The column below is several years old.
ESPN.com: Baseball [Print without images]
Thursday, August 8, 2002
From the archives: Assessing Jeter's defense
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By Rob Neyer
ESPN.com
The day we answer the burning question, "So how much is Derek Jeter worth, anyway?"
In recent years, and especially in recent days, it's been the fashion to sing the praises of The Magnificent Derek Jeter. The Greatest Yankee Shortstop, even better than the Scooter. Maybe as good as Nomar Garciaparra. Maybe even as good as Alex Rodriguez, the $252 Million Man.
Jeter's better than Rizzuto. But is he close to being as good as Garciaparra and/or Rodriguez? Here are some key numbers for each of them:
Alex Nomar Jeter
OPS 935 955 862
Garciaparra has certainly benefited from playing half his games in a good hitter's park, but the advantage certainly can't account for a 93-point difference in OPS. Same story with Rodriguez, who's actually spent the last season-and-a-half playing in a great pitcher's park (and before that, the Kingdome wasn't nearly as hitter-friendly as widely thought). As for the "little things," Jeter is a good baserunner, but no better than Rodriguez. And of course he's not often asked to bunt.
As hitters, Rodriguez and Garciaparra both earn A's, and Jeter gets a B+. Nothing to be ashamed of -- there are plenty of Hall of Fame shortstops who didn't hit like Jeter does -- but he certainly doesn't compare favorably with his slugging peers.
Well, if it's not his hitting, it must be his fielding, right? People rave about Jeter's defense, with Tim McCarver leading the wild-eyed hyperbole parade. However, there is virtually no objective evidence to support the notion that Jeter is a Gold Glove-quality shortstop.
The simplest fielding metric is called Range Factor: Putouts plus Assists, per nine innings.
And Jeter's Range Factor is, in a word, execrable. It's execrable every year. Here's where he ranked, in each of the last five seasons, among major league shortstops who started at least 100 games:
1996 20 of 24
1997 16 of 24
1998 23 of 25
1999 21 of 21
2000 23 of 23
Those numbers, elegant in their simple consistency, speak for themselves.
But of course, Range Factor is subject to all sorts of outside influences. Heinous things like pitching staffs and infield surfaces and gosh knows what else. There's a way to account for those outside influences, though. We can compare Jeter to the other Yankees who played shortstop in the same seasons that he did. Unfortunately for the purposes of this little argument, Jeter has been exceptionally durable, but the table below lists Jeter's Range Factor, along with the composite Range Factor of the other Yankee shortstops of the last five seasons.
Jeter "Others"
Innings 6767 461
Range 4.27 4.32
Now, this certainly isn't conclusive. But if Jeter were truly a superior defensive shortstop, wouldn't you expect him to make more plays per nine innings, rather than slightly fewer?
As I said, Range Factor is subject to various outside influences. Fortunately, Clay Davenport (one of our colleagues at Baseball Prospectus) goes to great pains to adjust for those influences. Davenport's method rates Jeter as 23 runs worse than the average American League shortstop (given the same playing time). That was the worst in the majors.
It was also the worst showing of Jeter's career, but then he's never done well by this measure. In 1999 he was negative-12; in '98, negative-3.
And you know, it's not just Davenport. Fielding statistics are not, despite what you might have heard from your favorite Luddite, meaningless. They can be quite meaningful in the hands of bright people. And as it happens, any number of bright people -- Bill James, Tom Tippett, etc. -- have designed their own methods for evaluating defensive statistics, and I believe that they all reach the same conclusion: Derek Jeter is, at best, an adequate defensive shortstop. He simply doesn't make many plays, and that's true even if you adjust for the left-handedness (or not) of the Yankee pitchers, and it's true even if you also adjust for the tendency of the Yankee pitchers to allow ground balls (or not).
Is Jeter the worst defensive shortstop in the major leagues? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. There is some evidence to suggest that he is, but I'm sure there's evidence to suggest that he isn't, too. My point is that there's no evidence to suggest that he's an outstanding defensive shortstop, or even a good one.
Wait, that's not precisely true. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence in Jeter's favor. McCarver thinks he's great, and so do a lot of other people. But you know, even Tim McCarver doesn't know everything. McCarver sees that Jeter is adept at snagging pops in short left field, and McCarver sees that Jeter does, indeed, boast a powerful arm. But other observers have seen that Jeter doesn't get a good jump on grounders -- the single most important skill for any middle infielder -- and others have cast doubt on his footwork, especially when he fields balls up the middle.
I simply don't believe that Jeter is a good fielder; nevertheless, the notion that he is a good fielder will likely endure as one of the great baseball myths of our time.
After reading all this, somebody out there will still be arguing, "Yeah, but Jeter's a winner. How many World Series have those other guys won?"
The answer, of course, is that they haven't won any. Zero, compared to Jeter's four.
Vlad Guerrero hasn't played for a World Series winner yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Paul O'Neill? Jeff Bagwell doesn't have a ring yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Tino Martinez? Randy Johnson hasn't reached the Promised Land yet. Does that mean he's not as good as Andy Pettitte?
Of course it doesn't. It's a silly, circular argument. Derek Jeter is great because the Yankees win. The Yankees win because Derek Jeter is great. Round and round we go, and where the specious logic stops, nobody knows.
So what is Jeter worth? If you're the Yankees, he's worth whatever it costs to keep him. Because you've got bottomless pockets, and because Derek Jeter is a very good baseball player.
Those are good reasons. But let's not jump to the ill-founded conclusion that Jeter is in the same class as Rodriguez and Garciaparra. Because he's not.
I have softened on this issue a bit since first writing the column, because Jeter has proved himself to be significantly more durable than Garciaparra.
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I've said it 100 times on this board--Jeter gets drafted and plays for KC, he barely gets a mention from anyone.
FACT.
Jay
<< <i>I absolutely love this. A guy throws out FACTS and NOT ONE Yankee fan has anything to say.
I've said it 100 times on this board--Jeter gets drafted and plays for KC, he barely gets a mention from anyone.
FACT.
Jay >>
Really? Jeter has won Rookie Of The Year, has the 6th highest batting avg. of all active players, All-Star Game MVP, silver slugger award, just last year he finished 2nd for the MVP award. Oh, I almost forgot, he's such a bad fielder he has THREE Gold Gloves!
Please note I excluded ALL of the "team" accomplishments (World Series MVP, 4 rings, most post season hits ever, ect...)
Yeah, I guess you're right, he wouldn't get mentioned a lot around here lol...
Jay
Can Adam Everett lead MLB for the fifth straight year?
May 23, 2007
Adam Everett is the best shortstop on the planet. Period. But he's never won a Gold Glove Award.
Everett has had the best plus/minus number at shortstop in each of the last four years. And as if to show that it's no fluke, he's leading Major League Baseball again this year. I developed the Plus/Minus System in my book The Fielding Bible about a year ago as a way to measure defensive ability. A number around zero indicates average. If a player is +5, it means he has handled five more plays than could be expected from an average player at his position. A figure of -3, for example, would indicate handling three fewer plays than the average player.
Here are the top shortstops in 2007 thus far:
Adam Everett, Hou +11
Tony Pena, KC +9
John McDonald, Tor +7
Julio Lugo, Bos +5
Troy Tulowitzki, Col +5
J.J. Hardy, Mil +5
Vizquel is at a respectable +2 so far while last year's American League Gold Glover, Derek Jeter, is at -9, second worst in MLB at shortstop to Hanley Ramirez at -10. Jeter continues to post poor plus/minus figures and, while he may be the best overall shortstop in baseball, he is nowhere close to being the best defensive shortstop in the American League despite his two Gold Gloves.
In 2006, Adam Everett had a plus/minus figure of +43, the highest single season total at any position in the four years we've been using this system. In The Bill James Handbook 2007, we began The Fielding Bible Awards. Our panel awarded Everett with the first Fielding Bible Award at shortstop and gave him the highest vote total of any player at any position.
How can it be that Everett has never won a Gold Glove? Part of that answer is that he doesn't hit well enough to get noticed. The other part of the answer is that he plays in the same league as Omar Vizquel. Vizquel has won numerous Gold Gloves and it's easier for the voters to continue to recognize him. Don't get me wrong: Vizquel may be aging a bit but he's still very good. Just not as good as Everett.
Who are the voters? They are MLB managers and coaches. How often do they see Everett? Some of them see him in 15-20 games per year, but most only see him about 6-9 games per year. I'm sure most of them recognize him as a very good shortstop, but they don't see him enough to be able to distinguish his great skills from Vizquel's nearly-as-great skills. That's where the Plus/Minus System comes into play. It clearly shows Everett as the best there is.
ACTA Sports congratulates John Dewan for his award-winning, ground-breaking research.
The Sporting News–SABR Baseball Research Award
The Fielding Bible
by John Dewan
The Sporting News-SABR Baseball Research Award honors those individuals whose outstanding research projects completed during the preceding calendar year have significantly expanded our knowledge or understanding of baseball. The winner will be honored at the Awards Luncheon of the 37th Annual SABR National Convention held this year in St. Louis.
***
The Fielding Bible contains break-through analysis of Major League Baseball defense—by team and player.
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Copyright © 2007 by John Dewan.
Permission to reprint or broadcast this information is granted only if used in conjunction with the following citation: "Used with permission from John Dewan's Stat of the Week™, www.statoftheweek.com."
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ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
WHO CARES????!!!! We are having some fun here so chill out. Go spill how you can prove that Jeter isnt the BEST in ONE category somewhere else. There are other threads for that.
You are basically wasting your time with the info you posted. Objective is a word that most sports fans do not recognize....and unless a statistical measurement was invented before 1901 baseball fans have very hard time accepting it, despite it being LEAP YEARS more accurate and telling.
I've applauded Jeter's accomplishments often, but Yankee fans get a little over the top sometimes. The Yankee teams and Jeter have given them a lot of joy and excitement, so it is easy to understand their over zealousness at times.
He is at the bottom end of fielding ability, compared to other major league shortstops. The thing that confuses people is that even the worst MLB shortstop looks smooth in their eyes, because the MLB SS are compared to what those people have seen in their lifetime of their own playing, so of course it is easy for them to 'dismiss' the objectiveness of measurements that put Jeter low in fielding.
One thing about Jeter's 'clutch' stats is that his LATE/CLOSE OPS for his career is .781, compared to an overall OPS of .854. That is actually quite unremarkable.
His lifetime OPS in the postseason is .863, compared to his .854 in the regular season. There is a big time myth of a so called 'Post Season' hitter used all the time.
His lifetime OPS with Men on Base is .850.
His lifetime OPS with nobody on base is .856.
That is actually below average! The league average player has a higher OPS with men on compared to nobody on (mainly because of Sac Flies), and with Jeter being lower, that is not particularly impressive.
He has some big post season moments/series...and some poor ones too(ironic that key defensive mishap vs. the Marlins hmmm.). In the end his post season play isn't any different htan his regular season player.
His late/close and men on hitting are rather unremarkable...as those are the other two areas of measuring clutch. So what it boils down to in the three 'clutch' departments is he is good at one, and not particularly good at the other two.
The clutch terms is all hype...the goodness of how good he is, is not hype at all. He deserves strong mention as a great player of his generation.
You claimed you had numerous publications that stated Jeter was "truly awful" at SS. Of the two things you posted, nothing about him being "truly awful" has been mentioned.
In regards to Everett, he is absolutely phenominal in the field. However, his batting skills are, as you say "truly awful". There's a running debate down here if his saving runs outpaces the runs sacrificed at the plate. Right now, it's leaning waaaaaaaaay towards the latter.
<< <i>Markj111,
You are basically wasting your time with the info you posted. Objective is a word that most sports fans do not recognize....and unless a statistical measurement was invented before 1901 baseball fans have very hard time accepting it, despite it being LEAP YEARS more accurate and telling.
I've applauded Jeter's accomplishments often, but Yankee fans get a little over the top sometimes. >>
Skinpinch, you are right on the money. I tried the stat route showing what Jeter really does last year (and the year before, and the year before that probably) but no one cares. It's Jeter, he's "clutch", and that's that. Heck, they even gave him a Gold Glove (!) over Alex Gonzalez last year, when Jeter had the worst fielding stats in the American League! His reputation and image will always be more important than his actual play to Yankee fans. A blog I read had this entry recently, and it sums this factor up perfectly:
Speaking of class, I was thinking about Lugo's ball that won Sunday's game. Since it was our guy, everyone said "Pitcher dropped the ball." And that's true. But if Jeter had been the batter on that play, it would've been, "Only the class and hustle of Derek Jeter could've made that play possible. You can't teach that. That's why when Earth is attacked, and one representative is chosen to negotiate with the aliens, it can only be Derek Jeter."