I would like to put in a rule for the All Time Packer Set. The player must be retired from the NFL to be voted on. Just like all of the other HOF sets.
<< <i>Well, I'm guessing that Woodson will make it in, which is a shame... perhaps I should just start requesting a vote for current players on the Packers who are hot at the moment!!! Come on, seriously guys???
Here are my problems with Woodson (right now)...
1) He's played 8 of his 13 seasons for the RAIDERS... not the PACKERS... and we want to crown him an ALL-TIME PACKER? Already? Seriously? 2) He's been 1st All Pro, and Def. POY, 1 time in his 5 years with the Packers... and it's easy to argue he wasn't even the best defender in 2009 when he was awarded the POY! 3) He's going to be considered an All-Time Packer... which still bugs me a little with Ahman but he did set the franchise rushing record so I let that pass on that merit alone... but C-Wood currently ranks tied for "8th" on the all-time Packers interception list... a tie with a part time playing two way Wide Receiver (Don Hutson) 4) Last, but not least, he's still a Packer... he's still freakin' playing... who knows what could happen in the next few years? Maybe he'll suck! Maybe he'll be great! Maybe he'll get busted for drugs! Maybe he'll save a burning Green Bay orphanage! We don't know, but anything could change our opinion of him next year, the year after... to the point you might be saying, yeah, he's not really an all-time Packer... right now it's just too easy to put him in that class... and honestly, in my opinion, without enough merit to do so today!
Like I said before, revisit the question in 4 years... I might change my mind (and if he continues to do well and build a real legacy, I absolutely will)... but you might change your mind too, and realize, for whatever reason, maybe ya'll jumped the gun here.
Okay, that's my final two-cents of contributions to the topic, I've said my piece.
-E >>
rebuttal...to your points
1.) while he was with the raiders longer he was selected to the first team all decade team of 2000's for a good part due to his play with the Packers. his selection to this team will nearly give him a ride to canton. that and the SB that they won this year ices it in my view. when he left that game is when the steelers came back (well and the jones drop of the 70+ yd TD).
2.) Ok, well he only had 1 1st team All Pro with the Raiders too. Add to that the people that beat him out when he was 2nd team with the Packers 2008 and this year were Revis/Asomugha and in 2008 were Asomugha/Finnegan. In 2007 he should have gotten some love but we all know how those votes go, generally a reflection of the past year. When he played better than Harris who made the 2nd team. As for his DPOY you could say the same about Clay not getting this year. When he went out of the Redskins game there was no rush and the skins came back, until then the couldnt get many passes completed. Oh and the phins game we CM didnt play we didnt get a sack and lost in OT again.
3.) 8th all time in INTS is right but he has the record for most defensive TD's over Adderley (a HOFer) in just those short 5 years (vs 8 for Adderley and 8 for Sharper the two that held the record before). Also holds the record for INT returns for TD's.
4.) He already got people out of buring building last off season.
considering he is nearly a lock for the HOF i dont think this is jumping the gun at all. ahman is more the worthy of his place after setting the all time rushing record. and he earned the second chance after getting a sweet deal in FA and the hard work he put in for the packers before. the other player that belongs here in my mind is longwell...all time score leader for the most important NFL team. >>
Let me just put it this way then... because nothing irks me more than arbitrary statistics (IE. using a stat that happens 8 or fewer times in 5 years or more)... look at the Packers record books. Look at the defensive statistics...
Everyone for the most part, myself included has written off Bobby Dillon from inclusion... but people are chomping at the bit to put Woodson in. Yeah, Woodson is only 8th in Packers career interceptions! Who's #1... Bobby Dillon! Who has let the Packers the most times in interceptions... Bobby Dillon! Bobby Dillon had three 9 interception seasons, playing 12 games, whereas the "great" Charles Woodson has only had one, playing in 16 games!
Woodson is simply the IT thing RIGHT NOW... and right now, he is not an all time Packer. He's borderline or better HOF candidate, he's had a great career. He's a great player. I'm not arguing any of that... but right now, at this very moment in time, he is not an All Time Packer. That's just ridiculous. That's just way too much praise to give a good/great player for such a short time with the team.
Superbowl? What does that have to do with it. Should we put Greg Jennings in right now too? He's been with the Packers just as long, has contributed just as much (if not more) and was on the SB winning team too? What about Aaron Rodgers? He's been with Green Bay longer, is killing it and should be killing it for years to come! Where is the uproar to get Desmond Howard in the set... heck, he was on a Super Bowl winner and was the MVP!!! Heck, let's toss Clay Matthews in there too. Dude has been a beast his first two seasons, should be good for years to come... clearly, time actually spent as a Packer doesn't mean anything to be considered an All Time Packer.
At this point, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Charles Woodson. Give him three more solid years with the Pack (balance out his career 50/50), get him somewhere in the Top 1-5 on the INT list... he'll have my vote all day long... but not today!
I definitely agree on Ryan Longwell though
P.S. - Thanks for some good football banter during the offseason... keeps my fired up for 2011 (or 2012 )
<< <i>I would like to put in a rule for the All Time Packer Set. The player must be retired from the NFL to be voted on. Just like all of the other HOF sets. >>
i think that would have to be passed by PSA and applied to all All Time sets. i like the idea...though the problem comes when you have players like a peyton manning or a favre on your team for as long as they have been there and at the level they both have played at. actually the only HOF sets that have a requirement like that are the locked pro sports HOF sets (outside voting). we already have "future" modern HOF sets with current players.
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<< <i>Well, I'm guessing that Woodson will make it in, which is a shame... perhaps I should just start requesting a vote for current players on the Packers who are hot at the moment!!! Come on, seriously guys???
Here are my problems with Woodson (right now)...
1) He's played 8 of his 13 seasons for the RAIDERS... not the PACKERS... and we want to crown him an ALL-TIME PACKER? Already? Seriously? 2) He's been 1st All Pro, and Def. POY, 1 time in his 5 years with the Packers... and it's easy to argue he wasn't even the best defender in 2009 when he was awarded the POY! 3) He's going to be considered an All-Time Packer... which still bugs me a little with Ahman but he did set the franchise rushing record so I let that pass on that merit alone... but C-Wood currently ranks tied for "8th" on the all-time Packers interception list... a tie with a part time playing two way Wide Receiver (Don Hutson) 4) Last, but not least, he's still a Packer... he's still freakin' playing... who knows what could happen in the next few years? Maybe he'll suck! Maybe he'll be great! Maybe he'll get busted for drugs! Maybe he'll save a burning Green Bay orphanage! We don't know, but anything could change our opinion of him next year, the year after... to the point you might be saying, yeah, he's not really an all-time Packer... right now it's just too easy to put him in that class... and honestly, in my opinion, without enough merit to do so today!
Like I said before, revisit the question in 4 years... I might change my mind (and if he continues to do well and build a real legacy, I absolutely will)... but you might change your mind too, and realize, for whatever reason, maybe ya'll jumped the gun here.
Okay, that's my final two-cents of contributions to the topic, I've said my piece.
-E >>
rebuttal...to your points
1.) while he was with the raiders longer he was selected to the first team all decade team of 2000's for a good part due to his play with the Packers. his selection to this team will nearly give him a ride to canton. that and the SB that they won this year ices it in my view. when he left that game is when the steelers came back (well and the jones drop of the 70+ yd TD).
2.) Ok, well he only had 1 1st team All Pro with the Raiders too. Add to that the people that beat him out when he was 2nd team with the Packers 2008 and this year were Revis/Asomugha and in 2008 were Asomugha/Finnegan. In 2007 he should have gotten some love but we all know how those votes go, generally a reflection of the past year. When he played better than Harris who made the 2nd team. As for his DPOY you could say the same about Clay not getting this year. When he went out of the Redskins game there was no rush and the skins came back, until then the couldnt get many passes completed. Oh and the phins game we CM didnt play we didnt get a sack and lost in OT again.
3.) 8th all time in INTS is right but he has the record for most defensive TD's over Adderley (a HOFer) in just those short 5 years (vs 8 for Adderley and 8 for Sharper the two that held the record before). Also holds the record for INT returns for TD's.
4.) He already got people out of buring building last off season.
considering he is nearly a lock for the HOF i dont think this is jumping the gun at all. ahman is more the worthy of his place after setting the all time rushing record. and he earned the second chance after getting a sweet deal in FA and the hard work he put in for the packers before. the other player that belongs here in my mind is longwell...all time score leader for the most important NFL team. >>
Let me just put it this way then... because nothing irks me more than arbitrary statistics (IE. using a stat that happens 8 or fewer times in 5 years or more)... look at the Packers record books. Look at the defensive statistics...
Everyone for the most part, myself included has written off Bobby Dillon from inclusion... but people are chomping at the bit to put Woodson in. Yeah, Woodson is only 8th in Packers career interceptions! Who's #1... Bobby Dillon! Who has let the Packers the most times in interceptions... Bobby Dillon! Bobby Dillon had three 9 interception seasons, playing 12 games, whereas the "great" Charles Woodson has only had one, playing in 16 games!
Woodson is simply the IT thing RIGHT NOW... and right now, he is not an all time Packer. He's borderline or better HOF candidate, he's had a great career. He's a great player. I'm not arguing any of that... but right now, at this very moment in time, he is not an All Time Packer. That's just ridiculous. That's just way too much praise to give a good/great player for such a short time with the team.
Superbowl? What does that have to do with it. Should we put Greg Jennings in right now too? He's been with the Packers just as long, has contributed just as much (if not more) and was on the SB winning team too? What about Aaron Rodgers? He's been with Green Bay longer, is killing it and should be killing it for years to come! Where is the uproar to get Desmond Howard in the set... heck, he was on a Super Bowl winner and was the MVP!!! Heck, let's toss Clay Matthews in there too. Dude has been a beast his first two seasons, should be good for years to come... clearly, time actually spent as a Packer doesn't mean anything to be considered an All Time Packer.
At this point, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Charles Woodson. Give him three more solid years with the Pack (balance out his career 50/50), get him somewhere in the Top 1-5 on the INT list... he'll have my vote all day long... but not today!
I definitely agree on Ryan Longwell though
P.S. - Thanks for some good football banter during the offseason... keeps my fired up for 2011 (or 2012 ) >>
i enjoy the banter too. not to be a pita but as for your stats...here are some others on INTS...Don Huston, Wood, Sharper and Woodson are the only players for the Packers to lead the league in INTS...so even the years that Dillion had 9 in 12 games someone had more...oh wait the most INTs for a season for a Packer was Irv Comp 10 in 10 games so that was even better than Dillion. all said the QB's of the 40's and 50's (and the passing game and rules) arent what they are now. QB's are better and the rules favor the WR.
all these stats aside i am torn on Dillion. his biggest knock is that even though his name has been through out there for Canton he never gets a nod from the Sr Committee. in my mind that might say something. our All Time Packer set is the most restrictive of the All TIme football sets out there. Generally these are all HOFers for the Packers...those that arent were more than dominant during their time Sharpe/Green. the one that always throws me is Max McGee, though he did come up big in playoff games. the other is Thurston. while Driver wont make the HOF he will be the all time leading Packer WR. the only problem with all time leaders is that though we have some in the set...Green and Driver, neither will ever sniff Canton. if Sharpe cant they wont either. so this is the problem i have with dillon. what if we put him in there and collins catches him with ints? he already has 21 would we automatically put him in then? then what happens with Dillon. i still think we lean more towards HOF type players. while some say dillon is HOF quality the reality is that the Sr Committee doesnt seem to agree. but we have the problem with players like Sharpe/Green/Driver/McGee/Thurston and maybe even Butler.
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I like the idea of waiting until a player is retired. I know I seem to say a player is better when he is still playing because the player is still in my memory from great season, for example. After retirement, it is easier to reflect not only on their stats, but what they did for the team and how they rank among the all-time greats.
Are you kidding me??????????? All of these guys made it on to the set except Gillingham. I know for a fact seven owners voted no for these players. Are you telling me we had at least 8 votes for each of these guys? I sent an inquiry to PSA to see if we can get the results of the vote. At least the total numbers. This set is getting dumbed down. UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Had a few emails from Gayle and here is what transpired. There were 33 registrants at the time of voting. 19 of those 33 voted ( or 58% ) Of those 19 PSA needs just 10 votes to add the card. In other words if one third of the registrants want a card added to a set they pull their weight when many do not vote.
I am disappointed that this happened. I have three of the four cards so it is not money out of my pocket but I feel we are watering the set down like some of the other All Time sets out there.
I agree, I think it's a joke! Not that I was threatening to the top of the leaderboard... but I just retired my set... at this point, it's a watered down pointless set. If I wanted to work on the Green Bay Packers Hall of Fame set, I would... I guess I'll just stick to a long term focus of completing the Green Bay Packers Pro Football Hall of Fame set.
i am kinda biased toward the proline as it has a nice photo with a winter packer jacket. but in all honesty it wouldnt matter. if we go with the proline we need to make sure that they dont include the auto'd version of the card.
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<< <i>i am kinda biased toward the proline as it has a nice photo with a winter packer jacket. but in all honesty it wouldnt matter. if we go with the proline we need to make sure that they dont include the auto'd version of the card. >>
Agreed on the NO Auto. I like either the Pro Set or the Pro Line, both have him in the Starter Jacket I used to own. Was really hoping they would have had two people go in like the normally do but I understand with having a coach giving him the lime light.
Wonder who the bring in when Favre gets inducted. Maybe the most popular Packer ever in Driver? I know Ted does not want to give Favre anymore lime light. I also think Ted will make him wait just to be Ted.
<< <i>Had a few emails from Gayle and here is what transpired. There were 33 registrants at the time of voting. 19 of those 33 voted ( or 58% ) Of those 19 PSA needs just 10 votes to add the card. In other words if one third of the registrants want a card added to a set they pull their weight when many do not vote.
I am disappointed that this happened. I have three of the four cards so it is not money out of my pocket but I feel we are watering the set down like some of the other All Time sets out there. >>
That's a shame....Entire Registry is getting watered down IMO. All it would have taken were some common sense guidelines that PSA could STICK TO and this wouldn't have happened. Allowing 10 votes from a 33 registrant set to add a card just makes no sense. Should be a majority confirm to make any changes...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2. ANTONIO FREEMAN – 1995 PACIFIC CROWN ROYALE #73
3. RYAN LONGWELL – 1998 PACKERS UPPER DECK SHOPKO #GB2
Personally I say no to all of them. Tim Harris isn't even in the Packer HOF let alone the Best Ever Packer set like this. The Freeman card isn't even the Bowman's Best Blue that is used for the Packer HOF and Longwell is still playing in the NFL so he is not eligible in my opinion.
Today... the Green Bay Packers released "All-Time Packer" Charles Woodson.
Back before the 2011 season, I said I'd have given him my vote if he had 3 more solid years with the Packers. The Packers organization decided to only give him 2... of which he didn't play in nearly a third of the games (missed 10 of 32 reg. season games).
I'm sure his career isn't over yet, but it's likely done as a Packer... so today he sits... 8 years a Raider, and 7 years a Packer!
Great player? Yes! Probable NFL HOFer? Yes! All Time Packer? I still don't think so!
<< <i>Today... the Green Bay Packers released "All-Time Packer" Charles Woodson.
Back before the 2011 season, I said I'd have given him my vote if he had 3 more solid years with the Packers. The Packers organization decided to only give him 2... of which he didn't play in nearly a third of the games (missed 10 of 32 reg. season games).
I'm sure his career isn't over yet, but it's likely done as a Packer... so today he sits... 8 years a Raider, and 7 years a Packer!
Great player? Yes! Probable NFL HOFer? Yes! All Time Packer? I still don't think so! >>
So is he even an All Time Raider? Maybe just not enough years at either team
I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team!
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?!
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<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?! >>
Deion Sanders falls into the category as well, IMO.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?! >>
Deion Sanders falls into the category as well, IMO. >>
i would at least consider him an all time great Falcon. but then again i am not an expert on the Falcons, but for what he did as CB and return guy i think he would be on the team.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?! >>
Deion Sanders falls into the category as well, IMO. >>
i would at least consider him an all time great Falcon. but then again i am not an expert on the Falcons, but for what he did as CB and return guy i think he would be on the team. >>
He is... technically! In some cases, and this one in particular, it speaks to the breath of talent and history of the team. When speaking of all-time team greats, the ladder is much easier to climb on a team like the Falcons... then lets say the Packers, or Steelers, or Bears, or Cowboys, etc.
From the PSA collector standpoint... Deion Sanders is part of the All Time Falcons set... but so too are Michael Vick, Agle Crumpler & Roddy White... that's not saying much!
From the Falcons standpoint, Deion was inducted into their Ring of Honor the season prior to his HOF eligibility & election. Here is where team history comes into play... This is the current roster of the Falcons Ring of Honor: William Andrews, Steve Bartkowski, Tommy Nobis, Jessie Tuggle, Jeff Van Note, Mike Kenn, Claude Humphrey & Deion Sanders... OUCH!!!
On the flip side, Deion spent just as many years with the Dallas Cowboys. During that time, he was arguably the best shut-down corner in the NFL. Is he in the Cowboys Ring of Honor? No, he is not! Is he part of the All-Time Cowboys PSA set? No, he is not part of that either!
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?! >>
Deion Sanders falls into the category as well, IMO. >>
i would at least consider him an all time great Falcon. but then again i am not an expert on the Falcons, but for what he did as CB and return guy i think he would be on the team. >>
He is... technically! In some cases, and this one in particular, it speaks to the breath of talent and history of the team. When speaking of all-time team greats, the ladder is much easier to climb on a team like the Falcons... then lets say the Packers, or Steelers, or Bears, or Cowboys, etc.
From the PSA collector standpoint... Deion Sanders is part of the All Time Falcons set... but so too are Michael Vick, Agle Crumpler & Roddy White... that's not saying much!
From the Falcons standpoint, Deion was inducted into their Ring of Honor the season prior to his HOF eligibility & election. Here is where team history comes into play... This is the current roster of the Falcons Ring of Honor: William Andrews, Steve Bartkowski, Tommy Nobis, Jessie Tuggle, Jeff Van Note, Mike Kenn, Claude Humphrey & Deion Sanders... OUCH!!!
On the flip side, Deion spent just as many years with the Dallas Cowboys. During that time, he was arguably the best shut-down corner in the NFL. Is he in the Cowboys Ring of Honor? No, he is not! Is he part of the All-Time Cowboys PSA set? No, he is not part of that either! >>
i dont disagree that its easier and harder to make certain all time teams. i would go even further and say that some teams shouldnt even have an all time team yet. do the ravens, panthers, jags and texans have enough of a history to have an all time team. no. do some of those teams have some players already that would make them, yes. clearly ray lewis and ogden would be on any all time ravens team.
on the other hand many of us have tried to keep the packers set as exclusive as we can, have there been some players that have sneaked in. for quite awhile its was almost strictly a HOF type set. some of the borderline HOF players that are in the set are really good players. we have also excluded players that only played a few years with the Packers that are in the HOF.
i agree i would prefer that we wait until a player is done playing.
as for woodson i would say he had almost the same impact on the defense that reggie white had when he came to the packers. white is in the set. i dont hear the complaints that he played more with the eagles then the packers and that he isnt the all time sack leader for the packers. though he was when he retired from football. of his 198 sacks only 68.5 came with the Packers and 5 with the Panthers. all said is that both were key members of a championship team and i do think that woodson is a lock for the HOF. based on all this i would say he does deserve inclusion in the all time team set. in some respects you can talk about the SB 45 season without talking about woodson.
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<< <i>as for woodson i would say he had almost the same impact on the defense that reggie white had when he came to the packers. white is in the set. i dont hear the complaints that he played more with the eagles then the packers and that he isnt the all time sack leader for the packers. though he was when he retired from football. of his 198 sacks only 68.5 came with the Packers and 5 with the Panthers. all said is that both were key members of a championship team and i do think that woodson is a lock for the HOF. based on all this i would say he does deserve inclusion in the all time team set. in some respects you can talk about the SB 45 season without talking about woodson. >>
I can't believe I just read that!!!
Reggie White is in the conversation of the Top 5 or 10 defensive players in NFL history. Reggie White is an all-time Packer... and an all-time Eagle. Charles Woodson is a borderline (albeit likely) HOF candidate, that is maybe in the conversation of the Top 100 defensive players in HFL History... I'm not sure he's even in the discussion of Top 5 or 10 defensive backs in NFL history.
The main reason you don't hear any complaints about Reggie White's inclusion is because a) there is really nothing to debate about it, and b) there is absolutely no way that Reggie's impact on the defensive wasn't exponentially greater that Woodson's! Reggie White didn't just impact the defense, but the entire organization and the landscape of the NFL (as it pertains the Green Bay's viability as a contending franchise). His signing, and subsequent contributions, are still, to this day, the single most impactful happening in post 60's Packers history.
Reggie White left the team on his own terms... and yes, he left with a sizable lead in the Packers sack record book... and yes, since broken. I also don't hear any glammoring to get KGB added to the set! What, he's not an all-time Packer? How can that be? He broke Reggie White's team record, for pete's sake!!!
Charles Woodson leaves, not on his own terms. He leaves tied for 4th in interceptions... 14 behind the leader (a non-HOFer w/ only 8 Packers seasons), and behind 2 other NFL Hall of Famers! Okay, sure, people can point to his defensive touchdown team record... forgive me for not putting too much weight behind a statistic that accounts for a grand total of 9 instances over 7 years. He might also be the team record holder for most Pass Interference penalties too, but I'm not sure how to look that up
Woodson was let go early from his contract by the Packers for 3 reasons: 1) Money, 2) Age & 3) His presence on the defense, and in the locker room, has often undermined the coaching staff. Talk about impact on the defense... the latter might be one of the more compelling explanations why the Packers defense has badly under performed that last two years. They have more than enough talent, and by God, they actually improved this year (over 2011)... when Woodson wasn't playing! Reason #3 is also one of the reasons you don't hear any talk about the Packers potentially bringing him back for less money... and why they likely won't, even if he's still unemployed come the regular season (which he probably won't be).
So... Woodson hasn't played the majority of his career for the Packers. He's not even in the Top 3 in the team record books for the most critical statistic at his position (INTs). He was released by the team, earlier than his contract dictated, because in the simplest of terms... he was no longer worth the money and the coaching headaches to be a contributor to their defensive, and team, success.
<< <i>as for woodson i would say he had almost the same impact on the defense that reggie white had when he came to the packers. white is in the set. i dont hear the complaints that he played more with the eagles then the packers and that he isnt the all time sack leader for the packers. though he was when he retired from football. of his 198 sacks only 68.5 came with the Packers and 5 with the Panthers. all said is that both were key members of a championship team and i do think that woodson is a lock for the HOF. based on all this i would say he does deserve inclusion in the all time team set. in some respects you can talk about the SB 45 season without talking about woodson. >>
I can't believe I just read that!!!
Reggie White is in the conversation of the Top 5 or 10 defensive players in NFL history. Reggie White is an all-time Packer... and an all-time Eagle. Charles Woodson is a borderline (albeit likely) HOF candidate, that is maybe in the conversation of the Top 100 defensive players in HFL History... I'm not sure he's even in the discussion of Top 5 or 10 defensive backs in NFL history.
The main reason you don't hear any complaints about Reggie White's inclusion is because a) there is really nothing to debate about it, and b) there is absolutely no way that Reggie's impact on the defensive wasn't exponentially greater that Woodson's! Reggie White didn't just impact the defense, but the entire organization and the landscape of the NFL (as it pertains the Green Bay's viability as a contending franchise). His signing, and subsequent contributions, are still, to this day, the single most impactful happening in post 60's Packers history.
Reggie White left the team on his own terms... and yes, he left with a sizable lead in the Packers sack record book... and yes, since broken. I also don't hear any glammoring to get KGB added to the set! What, he's not an all-time Packer? How can that be? He broke Reggie White's team record, for pete's sake!!!
Charles Woodson leaves, not on his own terms. He leaves tied for 4th in interceptions... 14 behind the leader (a non-HOFer w/ only 8 Packers seasons), and behind 2 other NFL Hall of Famers! Okay, sure, people can point to his defensive touchdown team record... forgive me for not putting too much weight behind a statistic that accounts for a grand total of 9 instances over 7 years. He might also be the team record holder for most Pass Interference penalties too, but I'm not sure how to look that up
Woodson was let go early from his contract by the Packers for 3 reasons: 1) Money, 2) Age & 3) His presence on the defense, and in the locker room, has often undermined the coaching staff. Talk about impact on the defense... the latter might be one of the more compelling explanations why the Packers defense has badly under performed that last two years. They have more than enough talent, and by God, they actually improved this year (over 2011)... when Woodson wasn't playing! Reason #3 is also one of the reasons you don't hear any talk about the Packers potentially bringing him back for less money... and why they likely won't, even if he's still unemployed come the regular season (which he probably won't be).
So... Woodson hasn't played the majority of his career for the Packers. He's not even in the Top 3 in the team record books for the most critical statistic at his position (INTs). He was released by the team, earlier than his contract dictated, because in the simplest of terms... he was no longer worth the money and the coaching headaches to be a contributor to their defensive, and team, success.
Tell me again how he's an All Time Packer???? >>
wow, i didnt mean to hit a nerve. i also wasnt implying that white shouldnt be in the set. i also never said that he had the same impact as white did. i said that it was a similar impact on the defense. look i know what white meant, but to be an all-time player its also production on the field. of course i wouldnt ask for KGB to be in the set, while he racked up some sacks his impact wasnt the same. he rarely had game changing plays. now both white and woodson, and to some degree clay have had those plays. those are things to me that make for an all time type player.
look i am not trying to convince to change your mind. i am pretty sure its never going to happen. just like you probably wont be able to get me to change my mind either.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
I just like the banter... and my debate isn't directed at you... just the topic in general & stating my case!
I'm lost without football right now, so I enjoy a good hard discussion. Thankfully, baseball season is right around the corner
And don't get me wrong... I like Charles Woodson, and I like what he did for the Packers when he was playing at the top of his game... I just don't think I'd give him the label of All-Time Packer. He was borderline 2+ years ago when the question came up (at least in my mind)... and he did nothing to solidify his case since then... in fact, I think he did much more to hurt his case, or at least, my opinion on the subject.
He's good, and his career is HOF worthy. For me though, his time with the Packers... and looking at the best DB's in Packers history... he is the same to me as Darren Sharper. 5A & 5B in terms of the best Packers DB's ever. Granted, Woodson is the better career DB than Sharper... but when we're talking all-time "Packers"... to me, they're the same guy. Woodson was arguably better, but he also had more negatives... they're a wash. IMO, neither deserves inclusion in such an elite club. Perhaps the only thing that would ever change my mind is if the organization felt strongly enough to retire his number... but I highly doubt that will ever happen.
Both well above average in their time with the Pack... yet not All Time Packers!
What will Grid you guys even more is he IS already included in the PSA All Time Packers set. And this was added I think two years ago. I voted no then and I vote no now. A tough no but still a no from me.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, I'm guessing that Woodson will make it in, which is a shame... perhaps I should just start requesting a vote for current players on the Packers who are hot at the moment!!! Come on, seriously guys???
Here are my problems with Woodson (right now)...
1) He's played 8 of his 13 seasons for the RAIDERS... not the PACKERS... and we want to crown him an ALL-TIME PACKER? Already? Seriously?
2) He's been 1st All Pro, and Def. POY, 1 time in his 5 years with the Packers... and it's easy to argue he wasn't even the best defender in 2009 when he was awarded the POY!
3) He's going to be considered an All-Time Packer... which still bugs me a little with Ahman but he did set the franchise rushing record so I let that pass on that merit alone... but C-Wood currently ranks tied for "8th" on the all-time Packers interception list... a tie with a part time playing two way Wide Receiver (Don Hutson)
4) Last, but not least, he's still a Packer... he's still freakin' playing... who knows what could happen in the next few years? Maybe he'll suck! Maybe he'll be great! Maybe he'll get busted for drugs! Maybe he'll save a burning Green Bay orphanage! We don't know, but anything could change our opinion of him next year, the year after... to the point you might be saying, yeah, he's not really an all-time Packer... right now it's just too easy to put him in that class... and honestly, in my opinion, without enough merit to do so today!
Like I said before, revisit the question in 4 years... I might change my mind (and if he continues to do well and build a real legacy, I absolutely will)... but you might change your mind too, and realize, for whatever reason, maybe ya'll jumped the gun here.
Okay, that's my final two-cents of contributions to the topic, I've said my piece.
-E >>
rebuttal...to your points
1.) while he was with the raiders longer he was selected to the first team all decade team of 2000's for a good part due to his play with the Packers. his selection to this team will nearly give him a ride to canton. that and the SB that they won this year ices it in my view. when he left that game is when the steelers came back (well and the jones drop of the 70+ yd TD).
2.) Ok, well he only had 1 1st team All Pro with the Raiders too. Add to that the people that beat him out when he was 2nd team with the Packers 2008 and this year were Revis/Asomugha and in 2008 were Asomugha/Finnegan. In 2007 he should have gotten some love but we all know how those votes go, generally a reflection of the past year. When he played better than Harris who made the 2nd team. As for his DPOY you could say the same about Clay not getting this year. When he went out of the Redskins game there was no rush and the skins came back, until then the couldnt get many passes completed. Oh and the phins game we CM didnt play we didnt get a sack and lost in OT again.
3.) 8th all time in INTS is right but he has the record for most defensive TD's over Adderley (a HOFer) in just those short 5 years (vs 8 for Adderley and 8 for Sharper the two that held the record before). Also holds the record for INT returns for TD's.
4.) He already got people out of buring building last off season.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Heroic-Charles-Woodson-shuts-down-a-house-fire?urn=nfl-255930
considering he is nearly a lock for the HOF i dont think this is jumping the gun at all. ahman is more the worthy of his place after setting the all time rushing record. and he earned the second chance after getting a sweet deal in FA and the hard work he put in for the packers before. the other player that belongs here in my mind is longwell...all time score leader for the most important NFL team. >>
Let me just put it this way then... because nothing irks me more than arbitrary statistics (IE. using a stat that happens 8 or fewer times in 5 years or more)... look at the Packers record books. Look at the defensive statistics...
Everyone for the most part, myself included has written off Bobby Dillon from inclusion... but people are chomping at the bit to put Woodson in. Yeah, Woodson is only 8th in Packers career interceptions! Who's #1... Bobby Dillon! Who has let the Packers the most times in interceptions... Bobby Dillon! Bobby Dillon had three 9 interception seasons, playing 12 games, whereas the "great" Charles Woodson has only had one, playing in 16 games!
Woodson is simply the IT thing RIGHT NOW... and right now, he is not an all time Packer. He's borderline or better HOF candidate, he's had a great career. He's a great player. I'm not arguing any of that... but right now, at this very moment in time, he is not an All Time Packer. That's just ridiculous. That's just way too much praise to give a good/great player for such a short time with the team.
Superbowl? What does that have to do with it. Should we put Greg Jennings in right now too? He's been with the Packers just as long, has contributed just as much (if not more) and was on the SB winning team too? What about Aaron Rodgers? He's been with Green Bay longer, is killing it and should be killing it for years to come! Where is the uproar to get Desmond Howard in the set... heck, he was on a Super Bowl winner and was the MVP!!! Heck, let's toss Clay Matthews in there too. Dude has been a beast his first two seasons, should be good for years to come... clearly, time actually spent as a Packer doesn't mean anything to be considered an All Time Packer.
At this point, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Charles Woodson. Give him three more solid years with the Pack (balance out his career 50/50), get him somewhere in the Top 1-5 on the INT list... he'll have my vote all day long... but not today!
I definitely agree on Ryan Longwell though
P.S. - Thanks for some good football banter during the offseason... keeps my fired up for 2011 (or 2012
<< <i>I would like to put in a rule for the All Time Packer Set. The player must be retired from the NFL to be voted on. Just like all of the other HOF sets. >>
i think that would have to be passed by PSA and applied to all All Time sets. i like the idea...though the problem comes when you have players like a peyton manning or a favre on your team for as long as they have been there and at the level they both have played at. actually the only HOF sets that have a requirement like that are the locked pro sports HOF sets (outside voting). we already have "future" modern HOF sets with current players.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, I'm guessing that Woodson will make it in, which is a shame... perhaps I should just start requesting a vote for current players on the Packers who are hot at the moment!!! Come on, seriously guys???
Here are my problems with Woodson (right now)...
1) He's played 8 of his 13 seasons for the RAIDERS... not the PACKERS... and we want to crown him an ALL-TIME PACKER? Already? Seriously?
2) He's been 1st All Pro, and Def. POY, 1 time in his 5 years with the Packers... and it's easy to argue he wasn't even the best defender in 2009 when he was awarded the POY!
3) He's going to be considered an All-Time Packer... which still bugs me a little with Ahman but he did set the franchise rushing record so I let that pass on that merit alone... but C-Wood currently ranks tied for "8th" on the all-time Packers interception list... a tie with a part time playing two way Wide Receiver (Don Hutson)
4) Last, but not least, he's still a Packer... he's still freakin' playing... who knows what could happen in the next few years? Maybe he'll suck! Maybe he'll be great! Maybe he'll get busted for drugs! Maybe he'll save a burning Green Bay orphanage! We don't know, but anything could change our opinion of him next year, the year after... to the point you might be saying, yeah, he's not really an all-time Packer... right now it's just too easy to put him in that class... and honestly, in my opinion, without enough merit to do so today!
Like I said before, revisit the question in 4 years... I might change my mind (and if he continues to do well and build a real legacy, I absolutely will)... but you might change your mind too, and realize, for whatever reason, maybe ya'll jumped the gun here.
Okay, that's my final two-cents of contributions to the topic, I've said my piece.
-E >>
rebuttal...to your points
1.) while he was with the raiders longer he was selected to the first team all decade team of 2000's for a good part due to his play with the Packers. his selection to this team will nearly give him a ride to canton. that and the SB that they won this year ices it in my view. when he left that game is when the steelers came back (well and the jones drop of the 70+ yd TD).
2.) Ok, well he only had 1 1st team All Pro with the Raiders too. Add to that the people that beat him out when he was 2nd team with the Packers 2008 and this year were Revis/Asomugha and in 2008 were Asomugha/Finnegan. In 2007 he should have gotten some love but we all know how those votes go, generally a reflection of the past year. When he played better than Harris who made the 2nd team. As for his DPOY you could say the same about Clay not getting this year. When he went out of the Redskins game there was no rush and the skins came back, until then the couldnt get many passes completed. Oh and the phins game we CM didnt play we didnt get a sack and lost in OT again.
3.) 8th all time in INTS is right but he has the record for most defensive TD's over Adderley (a HOFer) in just those short 5 years (vs 8 for Adderley and 8 for Sharper the two that held the record before). Also holds the record for INT returns for TD's.
4.) He already got people out of buring building last off season.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Heroic-Charles-Woodson-shuts-down-a-house-fire?urn=nfl-255930
considering he is nearly a lock for the HOF i dont think this is jumping the gun at all. ahman is more the worthy of his place after setting the all time rushing record. and he earned the second chance after getting a sweet deal in FA and the hard work he put in for the packers before. the other player that belongs here in my mind is longwell...all time score leader for the most important NFL team. >>
Let me just put it this way then... because nothing irks me more than arbitrary statistics (IE. using a stat that happens 8 or fewer times in 5 years or more)... look at the Packers record books. Look at the defensive statistics...
Everyone for the most part, myself included has written off Bobby Dillon from inclusion... but people are chomping at the bit to put Woodson in. Yeah, Woodson is only 8th in Packers career interceptions! Who's #1... Bobby Dillon! Who has let the Packers the most times in interceptions... Bobby Dillon! Bobby Dillon had three 9 interception seasons, playing 12 games, whereas the "great" Charles Woodson has only had one, playing in 16 games!
Woodson is simply the IT thing RIGHT NOW... and right now, he is not an all time Packer. He's borderline or better HOF candidate, he's had a great career. He's a great player. I'm not arguing any of that... but right now, at this very moment in time, he is not an All Time Packer. That's just ridiculous. That's just way too much praise to give a good/great player for such a short time with the team.
Superbowl? What does that have to do with it. Should we put Greg Jennings in right now too? He's been with the Packers just as long, has contributed just as much (if not more) and was on the SB winning team too? What about Aaron Rodgers? He's been with Green Bay longer, is killing it and should be killing it for years to come! Where is the uproar to get Desmond Howard in the set... heck, he was on a Super Bowl winner and was the MVP!!! Heck, let's toss Clay Matthews in there too. Dude has been a beast his first two seasons, should be good for years to come... clearly, time actually spent as a Packer doesn't mean anything to be considered an All Time Packer.
At this point, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Charles Woodson. Give him three more solid years with the Pack (balance out his career 50/50), get him somewhere in the Top 1-5 on the INT list... he'll have my vote all day long... but not today!
I definitely agree on Ryan Longwell though
P.S. - Thanks for some good football banter during the offseason... keeps my fired up for 2011 (or 2012
i enjoy the banter too. not to be a pita but as for your stats...here are some others on INTS...Don Huston, Wood, Sharper and Woodson are the only players for the Packers to lead the league in INTS...so even the years that Dillion had 9 in 12 games someone had more...oh wait the most INTs for a season for a Packer was Irv Comp 10 in 10 games so that was even better than Dillion. all said the QB's of the 40's and 50's (and the passing game and rules) arent what they are now. QB's are better and the rules favor the WR.
all these stats aside i am torn on Dillion. his biggest knock is that even though his name has been through out there for Canton he never gets a nod from the Sr Committee. in my mind that might say something. our All Time Packer set is the most restrictive of the All TIme football sets out there. Generally these are all HOFers for the Packers...those that arent were more than dominant during their time Sharpe/Green. the one that always throws me is Max McGee, though he did come up big in playoff games. the other is Thurston. while Driver wont make the HOF he will be the all time leading Packer WR. the only problem with all time leaders is that though we have some in the set...Green and Driver, neither will ever sniff Canton. if Sharpe cant they wont either. so this is the problem i have with dillon. what if we put him in there and collins catches him with ints? he already has 21 would we automatically put him in then? then what happens with Dillon. i still think we lean more towards HOF type players. while some say dillon is HOF quality the reality is that the Sr Committee doesnt seem to agree. but we have the problem with players like Sharpe/Green/Driver/McGee/Thurston and maybe even Butler.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Todd
I am disappointed that this happened. I have three of the four cards so it is not money out of my pocket but I feel we are watering the set down like some of the other All Time sets out there.
ProLine Portrait
Pro Set
Sky Box Prime
What is your vote?
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>i am kinda biased toward the proline as it has a nice photo with a winter packer jacket. but in all honesty it wouldnt matter. if we go with the proline we need to make sure that they dont include the auto'd version of the card. >>
Agreed on the NO Auto. I like either the Pro Set or the Pro Line, both have him in the Starter Jacket I used to own. Was really hoping they would have had two people go in like the normally do but I understand with having a coach giving him the lime light.
Wonder who the bring in when Favre gets inducted. Maybe the most popular Packer ever in Driver? I know Ted does not want to give Favre anymore lime light. I also think Ted will make him wait just to be Ted.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>i thought the HOF was apart from the Packers Team Organization control. >>
It is but we all know that the team has influence. If they did not have influence Brian Noble would be in.
Ryan
"The Packers are kinda like your kids. You dont love them because they are good, you love them because they are yours"
<< <i>Had a few emails from Gayle and here is what transpired. There were 33 registrants at the time of voting. 19 of those 33 voted ( or 58% ) Of those 19 PSA needs just 10 votes to add the card. In other words if one third of the registrants want a card added to a set they pull their weight when many do not vote.
I am disappointed that this happened. I have three of the four cards so it is not money out of my pocket but I feel we are watering the set down like some of the other All Time sets out there. >>
That's a shame....Entire Registry is getting watered down IMO. All it would have taken were some common sense guidelines that PSA could STICK TO and this wouldn't have happened. Allowing 10 votes from a 33 registrant set to add a card just makes no sense. Should be a majority confirm to make any changes...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
1. TIM HARRIS – 1987 TOPPS #358
2. ANTONIO FREEMAN – 1995 PACIFIC CROWN ROYALE #73
3. RYAN LONGWELL – 1998 PACKERS UPPER DECK SHOPKO #GB2
Personally I say no to all of them. Tim Harris isn't even in the Packer HOF let alone the Best Ever Packer set like this. The Freeman card isn't even the Bowman's Best Blue that is used for the Packer HOF and Longwell is still playing in the NFL so he is not eligible in my opinion.
Please help save this set by voting no
My set has been retired... and I will never take a stab at this watered down, joke of a registry set, ever again
Back before the 2011 season, I said I'd have given him my vote if he had 3 more solid years with the Packers. The Packers organization decided to only give him 2... of which he didn't play in nearly a third of the games (missed 10 of 32 reg. season games).
I'm sure his career isn't over yet, but it's likely done as a Packer... so today he sits... 8 years a Raider, and 7 years a Packer!
Great player? Yes! Probable NFL HOFer? Yes! All Time Packer? I still don't think so!
<< <i>Today... the Green Bay Packers released "All-Time Packer" Charles Woodson.
Back before the 2011 season, I said I'd have given him my vote if he had 3 more solid years with the Packers. The Packers organization decided to only give him 2... of which he didn't play in nearly a third of the games (missed 10 of 32 reg. season games).
I'm sure his career isn't over yet, but it's likely done as a Packer... so today he sits... 8 years a Raider, and 7 years a Packer!
Great player? Yes! Probable NFL HOFer? Yes! All Time Packer? I still don't think so! >>
So is he even an All Time Raider? Maybe just not enough years at either team
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team!
<< <i>
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?!
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Todd
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?! >>
Deion Sanders falls into the category as well, IMO.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?! >>
Deion Sanders falls into the category as well, IMO. >>
i would at least consider him an all time great Falcon. but then again i am not an expert on the Falcons, but for what he did as CB and return guy i think he would be on the team.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?! >>
Deion Sanders falls into the category as well, IMO. >>
i would at least consider him an all time great Falcon. but then again i am not an expert on the Falcons, but for what he did as CB and return guy i think he would be on the team. >>
He is... technically! In some cases, and this one in particular, it speaks to the breath of talent and history of the team. When speaking of all-time team greats, the ladder is much easier to climb on a team like the Falcons... then lets say the Packers, or Steelers, or Bears, or Cowboys, etc.
From the PSA collector standpoint... Deion Sanders is part of the All Time Falcons set... but so too are Michael Vick, Agle Crumpler & Roddy White... that's not saying much!
From the Falcons standpoint, Deion was inducted into their Ring of Honor the season prior to his HOF eligibility & election. Here is where team history comes into play... This is the current roster of the Falcons Ring of Honor: William Andrews, Steve Bartkowski, Tommy Nobis, Jessie Tuggle, Jeff Van Note, Mike Kenn, Claude Humphrey & Deion Sanders... OUCH!!!
On the flip side, Deion spent just as many years with the Dallas Cowboys. During that time, he was arguably the best shut-down corner in the NFL. Is he in the Cowboys Ring of Honor? No, he is not! Is he part of the All-Time Cowboys PSA set? No, he is not part of that either!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think i'd call him an All Time Raider either!
He's definitley on the border of being considered an All Time Great... and if he makes it into Canton one day, it's hard to argue that.
In this over sensationalized age, we throw around terms like "all time", "legend", "elite" way too easily, and often, way too early. I, personally, just have a really hard time calling anyone an All Time <insert team name> if they didn't even play the majority of their career for that team! >>
So we might have a HOFer that isn't an All Time Great for either team that he spent the major portions of his career playing for!?! >>
Deion Sanders falls into the category as well, IMO. >>
i would at least consider him an all time great Falcon. but then again i am not an expert on the Falcons, but for what he did as CB and return guy i think he would be on the team. >>
He is... technically! In some cases, and this one in particular, it speaks to the breath of talent and history of the team. When speaking of all-time team greats, the ladder is much easier to climb on a team like the Falcons... then lets say the Packers, or Steelers, or Bears, or Cowboys, etc.
From the PSA collector standpoint... Deion Sanders is part of the All Time Falcons set... but so too are Michael Vick, Agle Crumpler & Roddy White... that's not saying much!
From the Falcons standpoint, Deion was inducted into their Ring of Honor the season prior to his HOF eligibility & election. Here is where team history comes into play... This is the current roster of the Falcons Ring of Honor: William Andrews, Steve Bartkowski, Tommy Nobis, Jessie Tuggle, Jeff Van Note, Mike Kenn, Claude Humphrey & Deion Sanders... OUCH!!!
On the flip side, Deion spent just as many years with the Dallas Cowboys. During that time, he was arguably the best shut-down corner in the NFL. Is he in the Cowboys Ring of Honor? No, he is not! Is he part of the All-Time Cowboys PSA set? No, he is not part of that either! >>
i dont disagree that its easier and harder to make certain all time teams. i would go even further and say that some teams shouldnt even have an all time team yet. do the ravens, panthers, jags and texans have enough of a history to have an all time team. no. do some of those teams have some players already that would make them, yes. clearly ray lewis and ogden would be on any all time ravens team.
on the other hand many of us have tried to keep the packers set as exclusive as we can, have there been some players that have sneaked in. for quite awhile its was almost strictly a HOF type set. some of the borderline HOF players that are in the set are really good players. we have also excluded players that only played a few years with the Packers that are in the HOF.
i agree i would prefer that we wait until a player is done playing.
as for woodson i would say he had almost the same impact on the defense that reggie white had when he came to the packers. white is in the set. i dont hear the complaints that he played more with the eagles then the packers and that he isnt the all time sack leader for the packers. though he was when he retired from football. of his 198 sacks only 68.5 came with the Packers and 5 with the Panthers. all said is that both were key members of a championship team and i do think that woodson is a lock for the HOF. based on all this i would say he does deserve inclusion in the all time team set. in some respects you can talk about the SB 45 season without talking about woodson.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>as for woodson i would say he had almost the same impact on the defense that reggie white had when he came to the packers. white is in the set. i dont hear the complaints that he played more with the eagles then the packers and that he isnt the all time sack leader for the packers. though he was when he retired from football. of his 198 sacks only 68.5 came with the Packers and 5 with the Panthers. all said is that both were key members of a championship team and i do think that woodson is a lock for the HOF. based on all this i would say he does deserve inclusion in the all time team set. in some respects you can talk about the SB 45 season without talking about woodson. >>
I can't believe I just read that!!!
Reggie White is in the conversation of the Top 5 or 10 defensive players in NFL history. Reggie White is an all-time Packer... and an all-time Eagle. Charles Woodson is a borderline (albeit likely) HOF candidate, that is maybe in the conversation of the Top 100 defensive players in HFL History... I'm not sure he's even in the discussion of Top 5 or 10 defensive backs in NFL history.
The main reason you don't hear any complaints about Reggie White's inclusion is because a) there is really nothing to debate about it, and b) there is absolutely no way that Reggie's impact on the defensive wasn't exponentially greater that Woodson's! Reggie White didn't just impact the defense, but the entire organization and the landscape of the NFL (as it pertains the Green Bay's viability as a contending franchise). His signing, and subsequent contributions, are still, to this day, the single most impactful happening in post 60's Packers history.
Reggie White left the team on his own terms... and yes, he left with a sizable lead in the Packers sack record book... and yes, since broken. I also don't hear any glammoring to get KGB added to the set! What, he's not an all-time Packer? How can that be? He broke Reggie White's team record, for pete's sake!!!
Charles Woodson leaves, not on his own terms. He leaves tied for 4th in interceptions... 14 behind the leader (a non-HOFer w/ only 8 Packers seasons), and behind 2 other NFL Hall of Famers! Okay, sure, people can point to his defensive touchdown team record... forgive me for not putting too much weight behind a statistic that accounts for a grand total of 9 instances over 7 years. He might also be the team record holder for most Pass Interference penalties too, but I'm not sure how to look that up
Woodson was let go early from his contract by the Packers for 3 reasons: 1) Money, 2) Age & 3) His presence on the defense, and in the locker room, has often undermined the coaching staff. Talk about impact on the defense... the latter might be one of the more compelling explanations why the Packers defense has badly under performed that last two years. They have more than enough talent, and by God, they actually improved this year (over 2011)... when Woodson wasn't playing! Reason #3 is also one of the reasons you don't hear any talk about the Packers potentially bringing him back for less money... and why they likely won't, even if he's still unemployed come the regular season (which he probably won't be).
So... Woodson hasn't played the majority of his career for the Packers. He's not even in the Top 3 in the team record books for the most critical statistic at his position (INTs). He was released by the team, earlier than his contract dictated, because in the simplest of terms... he was no longer worth the money and the coaching headaches to be a contributor to their defensive, and team, success.
Tell me again how he's an All Time Packer????
<< <i>
<< <i>as for woodson i would say he had almost the same impact on the defense that reggie white had when he came to the packers. white is in the set. i dont hear the complaints that he played more with the eagles then the packers and that he isnt the all time sack leader for the packers. though he was when he retired from football. of his 198 sacks only 68.5 came with the Packers and 5 with the Panthers. all said is that both were key members of a championship team and i do think that woodson is a lock for the HOF. based on all this i would say he does deserve inclusion in the all time team set. in some respects you can talk about the SB 45 season without talking about woodson. >>
I can't believe I just read that!!!
Reggie White is in the conversation of the Top 5 or 10 defensive players in NFL history. Reggie White is an all-time Packer... and an all-time Eagle. Charles Woodson is a borderline (albeit likely) HOF candidate, that is maybe in the conversation of the Top 100 defensive players in HFL History... I'm not sure he's even in the discussion of Top 5 or 10 defensive backs in NFL history.
The main reason you don't hear any complaints about Reggie White's inclusion is because a) there is really nothing to debate about it, and b) there is absolutely no way that Reggie's impact on the defensive wasn't exponentially greater that Woodson's! Reggie White didn't just impact the defense, but the entire organization and the landscape of the NFL (as it pertains the Green Bay's viability as a contending franchise). His signing, and subsequent contributions, are still, to this day, the single most impactful happening in post 60's Packers history.
Reggie White left the team on his own terms... and yes, he left with a sizable lead in the Packers sack record book... and yes, since broken. I also don't hear any glammoring to get KGB added to the set! What, he's not an all-time Packer? How can that be? He broke Reggie White's team record, for pete's sake!!!
Charles Woodson leaves, not on his own terms. He leaves tied for 4th in interceptions... 14 behind the leader (a non-HOFer w/ only 8 Packers seasons), and behind 2 other NFL Hall of Famers! Okay, sure, people can point to his defensive touchdown team record... forgive me for not putting too much weight behind a statistic that accounts for a grand total of 9 instances over 7 years. He might also be the team record holder for most Pass Interference penalties too, but I'm not sure how to look that up
Woodson was let go early from his contract by the Packers for 3 reasons: 1) Money, 2) Age & 3) His presence on the defense, and in the locker room, has often undermined the coaching staff. Talk about impact on the defense... the latter might be one of the more compelling explanations why the Packers defense has badly under performed that last two years. They have more than enough talent, and by God, they actually improved this year (over 2011)... when Woodson wasn't playing! Reason #3 is also one of the reasons you don't hear any talk about the Packers potentially bringing him back for less money... and why they likely won't, even if he's still unemployed come the regular season (which he probably won't be).
So... Woodson hasn't played the majority of his career for the Packers. He's not even in the Top 3 in the team record books for the most critical statistic at his position (INTs). He was released by the team, earlier than his contract dictated, because in the simplest of terms... he was no longer worth the money and the coaching headaches to be a contributor to their defensive, and team, success.
Tell me again how he's an All Time Packer???? >>
wow, i didnt mean to hit a nerve. i also wasnt implying that white shouldnt be in the set. i also never said that he had the same impact as white did. i said that it was a similar impact on the defense. look i know what white meant, but to be an all-time player its also production on the field. of course i wouldnt ask for KGB to be in the set, while he racked up some sacks his impact wasnt the same. he rarely had game changing plays. now both white and woodson, and to some degree clay have had those plays. those are things to me that make for an all time type player.
look i am not trying to convince to change your mind. i am pretty sure its never going to happen. just like you probably wont be able to get me to change my mind either.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
I just like the banter... and my debate isn't directed at you... just the topic in general & stating my case!
I'm lost without football right now, so I enjoy a good hard discussion. Thankfully, baseball season is right around the corner
And don't get me wrong... I like Charles Woodson, and I like what he did for the Packers when he was playing at the top of his game... I just don't think I'd give him the label of All-Time Packer. He was borderline 2+ years ago when the question came up (at least in my mind)... and he did nothing to solidify his case since then... in fact, I think he did much more to hurt his case, or at least, my opinion on the subject.
He's good, and his career is HOF worthy. For me though, his time with the Packers... and looking at the best DB's in Packers history... he is the same to me as Darren Sharper. 5A & 5B in terms of the best Packers DB's ever. Granted, Woodson is the better career DB than Sharper... but when we're talking all-time "Packers"... to me, they're the same guy. Woodson was arguably better, but he also had more negatives... they're a wash. IMO, neither deserves inclusion in such an elite club. Perhaps the only thing that would ever change my mind is if the organization felt strongly enough to retire his number... but I highly doubt that will ever happen.
Both well above average in their time with the Pack... yet not All Time Packers!