<< <i>What you see over there is why there is no point to outing coin doctors. Not enough people find it objectionable. He's developed a fan club with a few dissenters waging a lonely battle. >>
A few dissenters..... who might you be referring to? >>
<< <i>. All I can say is I side with Basestealer. He seems to be the only honest person on this thread excepting a few who made a few casual posts.
AT is closet material stuff. And the closet is so full it is spilling out all over the place.
I have seen artifically toned bust halve dollars at every level, in every TPG holder, in MS63 down to G4.
All I can say is there are some very naive collectors on this forum, including some big time dealers who wouldn't dare endanger their reputations by talking about it.
BB >>
BB, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Nor what side your taking with Basestealer. Many around here are very aware of the amount of AT material out there. And there have been many AT coins in top tier TPG holders posted and discussed on this forum. There is little chance that a thread like this will yield any list of real doctors because the liability is too great. As for Basestealer, he is no real threat to the hobby because he is an amateur. But that does not mean that I have to encourage him in his efforts. Doing so only condones the actions of the real pros.
Are there many people who simply buy coins because they like them, keep them for a while, then pass them on in the same condition as when they got them? Smoetimes it doesn't seem like there are.
BB, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Nor what side your taking with Basestealer. Many around here are very aware of the amount of AT material out there. And there have been many AT coins in top tier TPG holders posted and discussed on this forum. There is little chance that a thread like this will yield any list of real doctors because the liability is too great. As for Basestealer, he is no real threat to the hobby because he is an amateur. But that does not mean that I have to encourage him in his efforts. Doing so only condones the actions of the real pros.
Fats
I appreciate your pleasant tone and thoughtful comment. Hobo nickels, Andy Warhol, engraving coins for ornamental purposes and ect. Artists have used a vast variety of media including some great art on brown paper shopping bags, rocks, and artifacts of every kind. My wife hated some of the works of Picasso until she learned the meaning of some of his works. Art is a free expression in my book.
Basestealer is fooling no one except those who will be fooled by anything and everything and no one buying his coins the 3rd time around will be fooled. If they buy them as art fine. If as a collector they probably will have to endure a learning curve.
However he said he can do a better job that looks real. Maybe?
AT is here to stay. The name of the game is to educate collectors as to how to tell the difference if they care. And this thread is one way to learn regardless of objections. I mentioned Andy Warhol because of the contempt he first faced. Elvis faced the same contempt.
There was a jewelry class at the local shop I frequent to buy bezels and other supplies (this was a while ago), and one of the things they teach is how to patina silver and other metals for jewelry pieces. Long story short, I wanted to dunk some pocket change to see what would happen and got surprising results--which introduced some of them to coin pendants (yay!). By adjusting the amount of vinegar and salt in the solution you can change the color (from natural brown/black toning to bright easter egg colors to rainbows, etc). You can, as a coin doctor looking for a natural effect, do a number of things to the coin to replicate any type of toning you desire (target, album, mint set, etc). I'd be willing to bet I could replicate it so that others would not be able to distinguish it from "nt". I'd be happy to lose such a bet, by the way. What I do believe, after discussing this with a coin dealer in my area and experimenting with him, is that this is more rampant than anyone thinks, and that eventually toning is going to undergo some major changes in the coin industry as far as market acceptable/desirability is concerned. If a coin can be alterred to make it undetected, then the only thing left to conern oneself with is "intent" of the toning, which is impossible, to read the minds of the owner of the coins to determine what they intended as it toned in their possession. We already know that acetone and dipping can be done "undetected", and it's "market acceptable", if done right, however if it's done incorrectly and can be detected it gets a "bodybag". Essentially, the industry is content with "if nobody can tell, then it's okay". I'm sure that isn't something anyone wants to admit or wants to be true.
most coins you see today have been doctored in some way. i won't name names, but rest comfortably knowing that on the bourse floor, most of the major dealers either a) are excellent coin doctors themselves, or b) are very good friends with a coin doctor. with the way coins change hands, you can almost guarantee that a specific coin went through the hands of such a dealer, and that dealer would not leave money on the table by selling a coin as a 64 when he/she knows with a little help it will be a 65, worth three times the price. and "coin doctoring" is not just about artificial application of toning, that's just one small aspect of doctoring.
I know of this certain company, who usually hires an outside individual to doctor coins. this outside individual has nothing to do with coins and coin collecting, but he has a lot of high tech equipment, and knows what he is doing. the company reimburses that individual for his work by giving him a percentage of the gross sales of doctored coins. would you believe that in 2005 the company paid that individual 60K to 100K every month? that's a lot of doctorin'
the above is a first hand account of things I witnessed with my own eyes.
<< <i>most coins you see today have been doctored in some way. i won't name names, but rest comfortably knowing that on the bourse floor, most of the major dealers either a) are excellent coin doctors themselves, or b) are very good friends with a coin doctor. with the way coins change hands, you can almost guarantee that a specific coin went through the hands of such a dealer, and that dealer would not leave money on the table by selling a coin as a 64 when he/she knows with a little help it will be a 65, worth three times the price. and "coin doctoring" is not just about artificial application of toning, that's just one small aspect of doctoring.
I know of this certain company, who usually hires an outside individual to doctor coins. this outside individual has nothing to do with coins and coin collecting, but he has a lot of high tech equipment, and knows what he is doing. the company reimburses that individual for his work by giving him a percentage of the gross sales of doctored coins. would you believe that in 2005 the company paid that individual 60K to 100K every month? that's a lot of doctorin'
the above is a first hand account of things I witnessed with my own eyes. >>
Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue.
Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue.
I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results.
<< <i>All I can say is there are some very naive collectors on this forum, >>
Dispassionate? >>
Most that know me would not believe I said that. But I learned the hard way arguing real estate law in the court room. I found out when I rolled up my sleeves and flexed my muscles that judges were not impressed. It's the logic and articulation of your position that wins.
<< <i> Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue.
I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results.
BB >>
I'm sorry, but I do see how dispassionate discussion has any chance of changing the behavior. The only way to end this destruction is for collectors to be loud and clear in rejecting those who partake in these activities. As such I will show my outrage, increase awareness, and help any collector I can learn what is original and what has been messed with. Anything less, including dispassionate discussion, will only result in the status quo. And that is unacceptable.
<< <i> Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue. I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results. BB >>
I'm sorry, but I do see how dispassionate discussion has any chance of changing the behavior. The only way to end this destruction is for collectors to be loud and clear in rejecting those who partake in these activities. As such I will show my outrage, increase awareness, and help any collector I can learn what is original and what has been messed with. Anything less, including dispassionate discussion, will only result in the status quo. And that is unacceptable. >>
I will say it again.
Most that know me would not believe I said that. But I learned the hard way arguing real estate law in the court room. I found out when I rolled up my sleeves and flexed my muscles that judges were not impressed. It's the logic and articulation of your position that wins.
<< <i>I think he posted the "After" across the street - He ruined it - it's now a POS >>
I read that entire thread over there. That was NOT the after photo - apparently that's not even the same variety.
According to him, he hasn't done anything to it.
It's worth reading if you have a spare 45 minutes. >>
Well he posted this with the original coin right above and asked which Feld liked better, so I thought it was the "after" coin
Edited to add: After I saw what I thought was the "after" coin, I didn't bother to read the rest of the thread - I see now that he was playing a game with Feld - Apparantly he doesn't like the coin he bought and wants to return it to Legend
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Hmm. Yet another interesting thread. Makes me glad I just collect original copper. On another note...
I rented a room from a guy twice while I was on co-op in Houston over the last two years. His wife just moved in with him who was previously living in New York. Before she moved here to Houston and got a new job, she was making a living ($60,000/yr +) in New York working for a coin dealer. She described to me (when she heard I was a coin collector) that her job there was to "clean" up coins and help the owner sell them on the internet. She has NO knowledge of the coin collecting community and was just doing this for work. If I wanted to I could ask her and she would be more than willing to tell me the name of this so-called "coin dealer". Threads like this make me want to do just that. If she could make that much money working as his "assistant", he must be dealing a $#&$load of "doctored" coins.
But I learned the hard way arguing real estate law in the court room. I found out when I rolled up my sleeves and flexed my muscles that judges were not impressed. It's the logic and articulation of your position that wins.
BB- with all due respect, we are not in a court room with lawyers. We are talking with collectors who feel a passion for preserving numismatic treasures for future generations- and passion has an important role in helping us navigate through greed and corruption. I stand beside Fatman in this belief, regardless if others think it's unimportant or irrelevant......
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
Per GMarguli's posts over at Sleepy Hollow, this coin is a 1864-L proof that sold for $50k.
I would be interested in hearing from those who viewed the coin when it was auctioned (especially Rick Snow) what the coin looks like in hand (the image looks juiced). what they know about the coin's provenance, and whether they think the coin has been worked.
<< <i> Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue.
I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results.
BB >>
I'm sorry, but I do see how dispassionate discussion has any chance of changing the behavior. The only way to end this destruction is for collectors to be loud and clear in rejecting those who partake in these activities. As such I will show my outrage, increase awareness, and help any collector I can learn what is original and what has been messed with. Anything less, including dispassionate discussion, will only result in the status quo. And that is unacceptable. >>
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Good, I hope a get a nice original coin retruned (Note: the coin was purchased Monday in our auction). I have several other people for it at the price it sold for. Unless you have seen the coin in person, you should NOT comment about it. Again, because of lighting, imaging was difficult.
Too many people think they have such smart ass angles in this his biz. I predict a major shake out of the coins docs by the end of the year. To a degree its already started.
Collectors and many dealers (especially my peers in retail) have said enough already with gradeflation and doctoring. For the past few months collectors have definatelty stopped buying every done up widget. They are now more choosey. The grading services need to slow down their in take and allow a few more seconds per coin. It WILL make the difference.
I wrote a Market Reprot a week ago about what I see happening concerning all this muck (www.legendcoin.com). >>
Sounds like people are objecting because they aren't profiting from it anymore, rather than a desire to do what's right.
<< <i>I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results. >>
I think that outrage is "proper," indeed.
Some day, perhaps this hobby WILL evolve into collections of coins nicely "treated." Perhaps all coins will wind up being "colorized" like those red-white n' blue American Silver Eagles for glorious eye-appeal, and originality WILL be irrelevant. Maybe coin collectors will no longer have historic sensibilities, will no longer enjoy the sensation that the item betwixt your cautious finger tips was held, regarded and spent by forebears in places and times limited only by our imaginings.
But I submit, the hobby is not yet there. For most of us, we like the coin in the context of real human experience. And if that experience included people's TLC over time that preserved pristine surfaces, cameos and powerful strikes, then so much the better. For most of us, I suspect, we'd rather be part of that TLC legacy and heritage than the happy recipient of a piece that was buffed up and candied by a coin doctor last week. And yes, the grading serices have been a boon to the hobby precisely BECAUSE people can buy an opinion from a practiced expert that guarantees his/her opinion that that piece is in fact authentic and original. People pay that money for the slabs because they WANT the coin to be orginial and not messed-with.
All this doctoring is but an effort to invalidate and defeat the certification effort.
If this effort to subvert the hobby and deceive the services and collectors no matter how conscientious and informed they try to be is alright to GMaguli fans and other hobbiests, then we participate in the cynicism and destruction. How is this any different from the cynical exploitation of any other honest human enterprise?
Am I the only one that thinks that gmarguli's posts in the linked thread are an attempt at yanking a few chains? It seems to me that he's having a bit of fun and...maybe even trying to make a point or two.
<< <i>Quick question: Are threads like this good for the hobby?
I know that everyone wants to be better informed, but what people want and what is best for the hobby are two completely different things. >>
Andy,
Maybe your right, I shouldn't have started the thread??? Its probably better for the "hobby" to let people doctor coins in order to gain the highest margin of profit. I'm beginning to understand that guy that posts here with the skeleton head that usually just says "it's all about the profit".
I think it was maybe you that made an analogy ATS in the other thread; so I'll make a stretch on one here but in the form of a question:
Is it the same thought process for the "coin hobby" to continue to hide its coin doctoring secrets and not discuss them in public as the Catholic church is doing with its priests that abuse children? You know, keep it quiet for the good of the "hobby/faith".
Actually, based upon what your "sigline" says; I'm surprised you would ask the question.
<< <i>Quick question: Are threads like this good for the hobby?
Yes. >>
Richarship
I have to agree with Myqqy, and you and Pharmer, and Andy too. But I think the list is were it took a twist in opinions. As you know there is a parallel thread running on that issue so it will be interesting to see what posters have to say.
However without disagreeing with any statement or post made may I ask this honest question?
For all the harsly cleaned coins that we do not want to buy what is their fate? Are they to be discarded? Some say they will retone over time but I have some coins that came out of auctions 30 years ago that have not retoned at all. They still looked cleaned.
So who is going to lay out the bucks to purchase these harshly cleaned coins and hold them for 80 years so they can retone?
I view things from my perspective as someone who in midlife has recently come back to a hobby loved as a child. With the experience of half a lifetime behind me I certainly didn't re-enter the hobby naive to the impact of human nature on this or any hobby. I tried as quick as possible to learn as much as I could and am continueing to do so. I have gained quite a bit of knowledge right here on this forum and have been lucky enough to make some contacts that I feel I can trust.
I don't know the answer to your question and don't mind admitting it. For me, I have knowingly bought cleaned coins as my collecting interest does not exclusively run based upon condition. I am putting together a year set that for me would be impossible for me to complete without reverting to a couple of cleaned coins here and there.
When the subject of AT/NT comes up; I can say that I was somewhat surprised at how it is addressed. I'm sure I will learn and adapt.
If someone wants to intentionally tone a coin for whatever reason and then later sell it; I believe there is a moral responsibility to inform the buyer prior to sale. Failure to do so is deceitful and speaks to a lack of personal character, at least that is my opinion.
With the advent of TPG's which weren't around when I was a kid; it seems that some feel that IF they can doctor a coin and subsequently get it slabbed by a top tier company it absolves them from their actions; and even justifies it in some cases. What can be done? I don't know.
I would imagine that this hobby like anything else ebbs and flows as the overall market demand changes. What's "hot" today is "shunned" tomorrow. I'm not a lawyer as some here so I might not have the terminology correct but IMO those who intentionally deceive in order to profit are committing fraud. Those that profit by protecting the ones committing fraud are complicit in the fraud.
Imagine in your youth on the playgroud when marbles were the rage. I don't remember what colors were the "hot" ones but for the sake of my story lets say blue. If I'd of bought a blue marble from another kid only later to find out that he had painted it blue in order to deceive me.......... I wouldn't have griped about it to strangers; I'd of taken him out behind the gym to teach him a lesson in personal responsibility and accountability for actions.
<< <i>For most of us, I suspect, we'd rather be part of that TLC legacy and heritage than the happy recipient of a piece that was buffed up and candied by a coin doctor last week. >>
Well said dpoole, well said Of course, the whole post was well said, but this part really rung my bell.
If someone wants to intentionally tone a coin for whatever reason and then later sell it; I believe there is a moral responsibility to inform the buyer prior to sale. Failure to do so is deceitful and speaks to a lack of personal character, at least that is my opinion.
RichardShip
Thank you for your response. I agree with the above statement and would add it doesn't stop there because the guy who bought it will most likely sell it to someone else and he may or may not say it was artificially toned. So yes it is a ethical dilemma for original type of artificial toning.
Many years ago I learned the process of artificial toning. I also honored the obligation not to let the coin into circulation and I have pretty much religiously adhered to that principal excepting on very rare occassions.
However for an true life illustration, circa 1999, I will relate my awaking. I art toned a seated quarter that was very much cleaned, about XF. I then took it to a 30 year veteran dealer and told him I thought I bought an artificially toned coin. He throughly examined it and stated I was mistaken. He said it was a perfect original. So later that year I sold it on Ebay as artificially toned and stressed that a low bid was appropriate. Someone on the East Coast bought it and got really excited saying it was one of the nicest seated quarters he had ever purchased. He then stated he took it to a coin show and showed it to some dealers and was offered triple what he had paid for it. When he told them it was art toned they disagreed and said it was a perfect original. He also said there was no way he was selling that coin even at triple what he paid for it. If I remember right it was 1840-O no drapery 25c.
That's when I decided it was an ethical question and refrained from the practice except on an exceptionally rare basis when ethical considerations were satisfied.
One last thing. I know of a process that I will never tell anyone. I am willing to bet it would be certified by any TPG. So yes, many of us that know the process of art toning do have a conscience. And I believe I can tell art toning from the real thing just about as good as anyone, including the TPG's on "bust half dollars."
This I will tell you for sure. On bust half dollars PCGS is by far the toughest on art toning.
Just want to add that I have a newfound respect for BiddlesBank after reading this thread. I wish there was more of the levelheadedness he displays on these boards.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
I believe that any dealer who knowingly sells a doctored coin is perpetrating a fraud on the buying public. Fraud is punishable by fine, imprisonment or both. Anyone with firsthand knowledge of a coin doctor/dealer perpetrating fraud is obligated to report the perpetrators to authorities.
As far as "dispassionate" discussions about coin doctoring, I side with those collectors who have expressed outrage. We cannot sit idly by while fraud is continuously perpetrated and simply look the other way.
Caveat emptor, read the book before you buy the coin, buy the coin not the plastic. All these cliches offer the numismatic enthuiast much great advice. But who's going to protect the hobby from the doctor/dealers if everyone is afraid to report them?
Remember TRUTH is a valid defense in any libel suit. And it is outrageous that these dubious practices are allowed to continue unabated
Edited for spelling! would smoeone please tell CU to give a spell-cheker?
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>I believe that any dealer who knowingly sells a doctored coin is perpetrating a fraud on the buying public. Fraud is punishable by fine, imprisonment or both. Anyone with firsthand knowledge of a coin doctor/dealer perpetrating fraud is obligated to report the perpetrators to authorities. >>
What about a TPG that slabs a doctored coin as market acceptable?
<< <i>What about a TPG that slabs a doctored coin as market acceptable? >>
If they knowingly slab a doctored coin and describe it with a euphamism of any sort, that is deceptive. And if the dealer/doctor is commiting fraud then I would say the TPGs are complicit in pepetrating that fraud, IMO.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
That could well be true for the high-end retail market-makers.
My observations of the trade over the last 40+ years convince me that MANY dealers are very corrupt/dishonest, and MANY dealers are VERY honest.
I doubt that any change will ever come to the industry in a manner that will serve collectors well. An industry that is largely built on low-balling walk-ins will always have a hard time acting responsibly in dealing with its end-users.
Buyers simply need to educate themselves and search out the trustworthy dealers. The same theory applies in any consumer transaction.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I believe that any dealer who knowingly sells a doctored coin is perpetrating a fraud on the buying public. Fraud is punishable by fine, imprisonment or both. Anyone with firsthand knowledge of a coin doctor/dealer perpetrating fraud is obligated to report the perpetrators to authorities.
Die Clash
There was a recent article somewhere about a guy who doctored or touched up stamps. Ex stamp dealer. It involves millions. The FBI, State, and other legal juristictions have been fully appraised of the situation for years and have all the information. The concerned parties are not only the victims but the leading stamp collecting organizations.
After several years the guy still keeps on doing what he has been doing. This is a grey area of law.
Now prosecuting someone for adding toning to the surface of a coin is not workable no matter how hot and bothered collectors get. It just isn't going to happen, not because I say so, but because it just plainly is not going to happen.
Now compare the degree of fraud a stamp doctor is doing to what a coin doctor does. A stamp doctor tries to make a worn stamp look in a higher condition by adding colored details, whereas a coin doctor adds toning but not for the purpose of obtaining a higher grade. Now in law I would suspect there is a difference in the degree of fraud involved.
Consider this. If you were to remove some chunks of cheese stuck to the surface of a coin would that be a crime? It actually would be the local joke in the Sheriff's office.
If it is difficult to prosecute open fraud where victims don't receive anything let alone a doctored coin. It is highly unlikely law enforcement will go after coin doctors.
Click on this link. This is a national case I was involved with involving high ranking postal officials and an Ebay scammer. You will get an idea of what the legal system will do and what it won't do.
I agree that it is unlikely that any coin doctoring operation will ever face charges. But charges of fraud or theft by deception can be brought against any dealer who knowingly misrepresents a coin that is sold to the public, regardless of how it was doctored.
As for AT, the TPGs use "Market Acceptable" to slab questionably toned coins.
Earlier in the thread a poster relayed a story of first-hand experience where a Coin Dealer was in cahoots with a doctor to modify the coins so that the doctored coins could be passed off as something that they are not. This is a fraudulent practice with the intent to pofit by deceiving the customers. This is illegal and if reported, who knows, maybe it receives the same lack of attention as your stamp scenario. But at least it should be reported. IMO.
Edited to add: Interesting read on that weblink BB! Very good sleuthing work my friend.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Now compare the degree of fraud a stamp doctor is doing to what a coin doctor does. A stamp doctor tries to make a worn stamp look in a higher condition by adding colored details, whereas a coin doctor adds toning but not for the purpose of obtaining a higher grade. Now in law I would suspect there is a difference in the degree of fraud involved. >>
I thought a lot of coin doctors add AT to make problem coins look in a higher grade by hiding problems?
<< <i>BB I agree that it is unlikely that any coin doctoring operation will ever face charges. But charges of fraud or theft by deception can be brought against any dealer who knowingly misrepresents a coin that is sold to the public, regardless of how it was doctored. As for AT, the TPGs use "Market Acceptable" to slab questionably toned coins. Earlier in the thread a poster relayed a story of first-hand experience where a Coin Dealer was in cahoots with a doctor to modify the coins so that the doctored coins could be passed off as something that they are not. This is a fraudulent practice with the intent to pofit by deceiving the customers. This is illegal and if reported, who knows, maybe it receives the same lack of attention as your stamp scenario. But at least it should be reported. IMO. >>
Die Clash
First I hope some of the CU members click on the link I provided in the above post.
This type of legal action probably could be offered to the ANA for consideration. However under law it is a civil suit most likely. For instance if you bought a coin that was doctored for $1,000 and the seller would not refund your money you would have to hire a lawyer at $200 per hour + expenses and then go through a lengthy legal process of summons, complaint, motions, expert witnesses, provide witnesses and pay witness fees + expert witness fees which generally run about $300 per hour + hotel, food, lodging and air fare.
I suspect by the time you started trial the cost would be in excess of $30,000. Then you would have to prove conclusively that the coin was knowingly altered and that the seller intended to defraud you. Nearly impossible but if by some chance out of " one in a million" you won you would not get attorney's fees and all the costs you had involved. You would merely get back your $1,000 and the seller would get his coin back.
A well known numismatist by the name of Newman spent years dogging John J Ford over alleged frauds involving valuable assay bars, if I remember right, but it could have been other numismatic items Newman claimed they were frauds. Congress convened the Lilly commission to consider the allegations as the US government was plannning on purchasing the Lilly collection but Newman was a no show and no hearing took place. There are still some really hot numismatic rhetoric flying around over the alleged fraud.
The above paragraph is by recollection and I can stand to be corrected as to spelling and names.
First I hope some of the CU members click on the link I provided in the above post... >>
A well-made point BB.
Alas we possess no power if left to our own devices because law enforcement is disinterested. And I have heard many complaints that the ANA is weak when it comes to dealing with member offenses. But I bet if I wrote them a bad check they'd bust me for theft in a New York minute.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I agree that it is unlikely that any coin doctoring operation will ever face charges. But charges of fraud or theft by deception can be brought against any dealer who knowingly misrepresents a coin that is sold to the public, regardless of how it was doctored.
As for AT, the TPGs use "Market Acceptable" to slab questionably toned coins.
Earlier in the thread a poster relayed a story of first-hand experience where a Coin Dealer was in cahoots with a doctor to modify the coins so that the doctored coins could be passed off as something that they are not. This is a fraudulent practice with the intent to pofit by deceiving the customers. This is illegal and if reported, who knows, maybe it receives the same lack of attention as your stamp scenario. But at least it should be reported. IMO.
Edited to add: Interesting read on that weblink BB! Very good sleuthing work my friend. >>
Alterring US coin for fraudulent purposes is a felony. That would automatically apply to machine tooling coins (read the recent Mint PR on smooth edge Washingtons for their stance). Toning, however, would not apply, because it is not something that alters the physical aspect of the coin. And while coin collectors are comfortable with the terms "artificial toning" and "natural toning", they are inappropriate terms in my opinion, because artifical implies that artificial toning isn't real--and even if we use the "by human skill" defintion of the word, it would apply to natural toning as well, since coins are made by humans and the environment in which they are stored is also human controlled. And there is really no distinction to be made about the oxidation process, be it forced or over time, or any other method--nothing can be scientifically, tangibly measured to enforce any law or rule against the application of one method over another.
So it boils down to intent. Did he *mean* to put that coin in that Taco Bell napkin, or did the coin fall into the Taco Bell sack and sit there for 4 years? Did he *know* that the old Wayte Raymond album toned coins prematurely, or did he store them in the album because it's all they had back then? Did he drop the coin on a hunk of oak in the forest or did he dubiously place the coin there hoping for the effect? Did he naively store his coins by the window sill or did he do it on purpose? And someone's intent cannot be determined unless he or she tells us, and coin doctors out to deceive won't tell, so the intent aspect is meaningless and irrelevent because it's impossible to enforce. So third party graders merely guess--brilliantly toned pieces, without dubious intent, are rejected while coins with hastened toning make their way into slabs. It's a joke, really. To hold on to the notion that natural means something, that it's the "acceptable" form of toning is to hold on to a fantasy that never could be realized in practice. So everyone guesses. Some of the Battle Creek morgan dollars have circus toning that would immediately raise red flags of everyone on this forum had the coin not already been in a slab. And on the same token, many subtley toned coins "pass" simply because they aren't wild enough to raise suspicion. So for people into toners, they're kidding themselves if they think there is any way to truly know one way or the other.
Comments
<< <i>They wouldnt fool anyone because he SAYS they are AT in the ebay title and description. >>
I suppose you could fool someone with a wooden nickel but there is a limit as to who you have an obligation to protect.
BB
<< <i>Is MOC an abbreviation for manofcoins? >>
....at`s my boy -pure genius
<< <i>
<< <i>What you see over there is why there is no point to outing coin doctors. Not enough people find it objectionable. He's developed a fan club with a few dissenters waging a lonely battle. >>
A few dissenters..... who might you be referring to?
<< <i>They wouldnt fool anyone because he SAYS they are AT in the ebay title and description. >>
And he won't get much money for them either, because people want the illusion the toning happened naturally.
Found your auctions. It doesn't look like the toned pieces brought much if any of a premium.
What your doing is a far cry different than what Greg is self-promoting ATS.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is MOC an abbreviation for manofcoins? >>
....at`s my boy -pure genius >>
Thanks, Michael
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>.
All I can say is I side with Basestealer. He seems to be the only honest person on this thread excepting a few who made a few casual posts.
AT is closet material stuff. And the closet is so full it is spilling out all over the place.
I have seen artifically toned bust halve dollars at every level, in every TPG holder, in MS63 down to G4.
All I can say is there are some very naive collectors on this forum, including some big time dealers who wouldn't dare endanger their reputations by talking about it.
BB >>
BB, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Nor what side your taking with Basestealer. Many around here are very aware of the amount of AT material out there. And there have been many AT coins in top tier TPG holders posted and discussed on this forum. There is little chance that a thread like this will yield any list of real doctors because the liability is too great. As for Basestealer, he is no real threat to the hobby because he is an amateur. But that does not mean that I have to encourage him in his efforts. Doing so only condones the actions of the real pros.
Fats
I appreciate your pleasant tone and thoughtful comment. Hobo nickels, Andy Warhol, engraving coins for ornamental purposes and ect. Artists have used a vast variety of media including some great art on brown paper shopping bags, rocks, and artifacts of every kind. My wife hated some of the works of Picasso until she learned the meaning of some of his works. Art is a free expression in my book.
Basestealer is fooling no one except those who will be fooled by anything and everything and no one buying his coins the 3rd time around will be fooled. If they buy them as art fine. If as a collector they probably will have to endure a learning curve.
However he said he can do a better job that looks real. Maybe?
AT is here to stay. The name of the game is to educate collectors as to how to tell the difference if they care. And this thread is one way to learn regardless of objections. I mentioned Andy Warhol because of the contempt he first faced. Elvis faced the same contempt.
It's time to really learn the difference.
Thank you for your patience.
BB
and "coin doctoring" is not just about artificial application of toning, that's just one small aspect of doctoring.
I know of this certain company, who usually hires an outside individual to doctor coins. this outside individual has nothing to do with coins and coin collecting, but he has a lot of high tech equipment, and knows what he is doing. the company reimburses that individual for his work by giving him a percentage of the gross sales of doctored coins. would you believe that in 2005 the company paid that individual 60K to 100K every month? that's a lot of doctorin'
the above is a first hand account of things I witnessed with my own eyes.
<< <i>most coins you see today have been doctored in some way. i won't name names, but rest comfortably knowing that on the bourse floor, most of the major dealers either a) are excellent coin doctors themselves, or b) are very good friends with a coin doctor. with the way coins change hands, you can almost guarantee that a specific coin went through the hands of such a dealer, and that dealer would not leave money on the table by selling a coin as a 64 when he/she knows with a little help it will be a 65, worth three times the price.
and "coin doctoring" is not just about artificial application of toning, that's just one small aspect of doctoring.
I know of this certain company, who usually hires an outside individual to doctor coins. this outside individual has nothing to do with coins and coin collecting, but he has a lot of high tech equipment, and knows what he is doing. the company reimburses that individual for his work by giving him a percentage of the gross sales of doctored coins. would you believe that in 2005 the company paid that individual 60K to 100K every month? that's a lot of doctorin'
the above is a first hand account of things I witnessed with my own eyes. >>
Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue.
I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results.
BB
<< <i>All I can say is there are some very naive collectors on this forum, >>
Dispassionate?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>All I can say is there are some very naive collectors on this forum, >>
Dispassionate? >>
Most that know me would not believe I said that. But I learned the hard way arguing real estate law in the court room. I found out when I rolled up my sleeves and flexed my muscles that judges were not impressed. It's the logic and articulation of your position that wins.
<< <i> Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue.
I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results.
BB >>
I'm sorry, but I do see how dispassionate discussion has any chance of changing the behavior. The only way to end this destruction is for collectors to be loud and clear in rejecting those who partake in these activities. As such I will show my outrage, increase awareness, and help any collector I can learn what is original and what has been messed with. Anything less, including dispassionate discussion, will only result in the status quo. And that is unacceptable.
<< <i>
<< <i> Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue. I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results. BB >>
I'm sorry, but I do see how dispassionate discussion has any chance of changing the behavior. The only way to end this destruction is for collectors to be loud and clear in rejecting those who partake in these activities. As such I will show my outrage, increase awareness, and help any collector I can learn what is original and what has been messed with. Anything less, including dispassionate discussion, will only result in the status quo. And that is unacceptable. >>
I will say it again.
Most that know me would not believe I said that. But I learned the hard way arguing real estate law in the court room. I found out when I rolled up my sleeves and flexed my muscles that judges were not impressed. It's the logic and articulation of your position that wins.
BB
<< <i>What a chump. I extremely dislike these morons who brag. It'so obvious in his mind his actions are justified.
If he does anything to that coin, its a crime-nothing needs to be done to it.
Note: We could NOT get a better image of the coin. It was a matter of the lighting. We tried everything! >>
I think he posted the "After" across the street - He ruined it - it's now a POS
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
<< <i>I think he posted the "After" across the street - He ruined it - it's now a POS >>
I read that entire thread over there. That was NOT the after photo - apparently that's not even the same variety.
According to him, he hasn't done anything to it.
It's worth reading if you have a spare 45 minutes.
<< <i>NCS should top the list. >>
Updated list:
1. NCS
2. MOC
3. GotoToning Coins
4. GMarguli
5. Big-Arse dealer who pays dude $75k per month to "work" coins
<< <i>
<< <i>I think he posted the "After" across the street - He ruined it - it's now a POS >>
I read that entire thread over there. That was NOT the after photo - apparently that's not even the same variety.
According to him, he hasn't done anything to it.
It's worth reading if you have a spare 45 minutes. >>
Well he posted this with the original coin right above and asked which Feld liked better, so I thought it was the "after" coin
Edited to add: After I saw what I thought was the "after" coin, I didn't bother to read the rest of the thread - I see now that he was playing a game with Feld - Apparantly he doesn't like the coin he bought and wants to return it to Legend
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
I rented a room from a guy twice while I was on co-op in Houston over the last two years. His wife just moved in with him who was previously living in New York. Before she moved here to Houston and got a new job, she was making a living ($60,000/yr +) in New York working for a coin dealer. She described to me (when she heard I was a coin collector) that her job there was to "clean" up coins and help the owner sell them on the internet. She has NO knowledge of the coin collecting community and was just doing this for work. If I wanted to I could ask her and she would be more than willing to tell me the name of this so-called "coin dealer". Threads like this make me want to do just that. If she could make that much money working as his "assistant", he must be dealing a $#&$load of "doctored" coins.
BB- with all due respect, we are not in a court room with lawyers. We are talking with collectors who feel a passion for preserving numismatic treasures for future generations- and passion has an important role in helping us navigate through greed and corruption. I stand beside Fatman in this belief, regardless if others think it's unimportant or irrelevant......
Per GMarguli's posts over at Sleepy Hollow, this coin is a 1864-L proof that sold for $50k.
I would be interested in hearing from those who viewed the coin when it was auctioned (especially Rick Snow) what the coin looks like in hand (the image looks juiced). what they know about the coin's provenance, and whether they think the coin has been worked.
<< <i>
<< <i> Excellent post and a must read for all collectors. But this reality does not mean that we should simply accept the situation as it is. Collectors should be outraged, not apathetic on the issue.
I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results.
BB >>
I'm sorry, but I do see how dispassionate discussion has any chance of changing the behavior. The only way to end this destruction is for collectors to be loud and clear in rejecting those who partake in these activities. As such I will show my outrage, increase awareness, and help any collector I can learn what is original and what has been messed with. Anything less, including dispassionate discussion, will only result in the status quo. And that is unacceptable. >>
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Good, I hope a get a nice original coin retruned (Note: the coin was purchased Monday in our auction). I have several other people for it at the price it sold for. Unless you have seen the coin in person, you should NOT comment about it. Again, because of lighting, imaging was difficult.
Too many people think they have such smart ass angles in this his biz. I predict a major shake out of the coins docs by the end of the year. To a degree its already started.
Collectors and many dealers (especially my peers in retail) have said enough already with gradeflation and doctoring. For the past few months collectors have definatelty stopped buying every done up widget. They are now more choosey. The grading services need to slow down their in take and allow a few more seconds per coin. It WILL make the difference.
I wrote a Market Reprot a week ago about what I see happening concerning all this muck (www.legendcoin.com). >>
Sounds like people are objecting because they aren't profiting from it anymore, rather than a desire to do what's right.
<< <i>Good, I hope a get a nice original coin retruned (Note: the coin was purchased Monday in our auction). >>
A knowledgeable coin doctor who's has it in hand thinks it has been worked in two separate ways. That's your opinion of original?
<< <i>I am not so sure that outrage is a proper response to a fact of numismatic enterprise. Dispassionate discussions probably would produce better results. >>
I think that outrage is "proper," indeed.
Some day, perhaps this hobby WILL evolve into collections of coins nicely "treated." Perhaps all coins will wind up being "colorized" like those red-white n' blue American Silver Eagles for glorious eye-appeal, and originality WILL be irrelevant. Maybe coin collectors will no longer have historic sensibilities, will no longer enjoy the sensation that the item betwixt your cautious finger tips was held, regarded and spent by forebears in places and times limited only by our imaginings.
But I submit, the hobby is not yet there. For most of us, we like the coin in the context of real human experience. And if that experience included people's TLC over time that preserved pristine surfaces, cameos and powerful strikes, then so much the better. For most of us, I suspect, we'd rather be part of that TLC legacy and heritage than the happy recipient of a piece that was buffed up and candied by a coin doctor last week. And yes, the grading serices have been a boon to the hobby precisely BECAUSE people can buy an opinion from a practiced expert that guarantees his/her opinion that that piece is in fact authentic and original. People pay that money for the slabs because they WANT the coin to be orginial and not messed-with.
All this doctoring is but an effort to invalidate and defeat the certification effort.
If this effort to subvert the hobby and deceive the services and collectors no matter how conscientious and informed they try to be is alright to GMaguli fans and other hobbiests, then we participate in the cynicism and destruction. How is this any different from the cynical exploitation of any other honest human enterprise?
And if not here, where IS outrage "proper?"
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I know that everyone wants to be better informed, but what people want and what is best for the hobby are two completely different things.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
*******************************************************************************
<< <i>Quick question: Are threads like this good for the hobby?
I know that everyone wants to be better informed, but what people want and what is best for the hobby are two completely different things. >>
Andy,
Maybe your right, I shouldn't have started the thread??? Its probably better for the "hobby" to let people doctor coins in order to gain the highest margin of profit. I'm beginning to understand that guy that posts here with the skeleton head that usually just says "it's all about the profit".
I think it was maybe you that made an analogy ATS in the other thread; so I'll make a stretch on one here but in the form of a question:
Is it the same thought process for the "coin hobby" to continue to hide its coin doctoring secrets and not discuss them in public as the Catholic church is doing with its priests that abuse children? You know, keep it quiet for the good of the "hobby/faith".
Actually, based upon what your "sigline" says; I'm surprised you would ask the question.
Yes.
<< <i>Quick question: Are threads like this good for the hobby?
Yes. >>
Richarship
I have to agree with Myqqy, and you and Pharmer, and Andy too. But I think the list is were it took a twist in opinions. As you know there is a parallel thread running on that issue so it will be interesting to see what posters have to say.
However without disagreeing with any statement or post made may I ask this honest question?
For all the harsly cleaned coins that we do not want to buy what is their fate? Are they to be discarded? Some say they will retone over time but I have some coins that came out of auctions 30 years ago that have not retoned at all. They still looked cleaned.
So who is going to lay out the bucks to purchase these harshly cleaned coins and hold them for 80 years so they can retone?
No best answer is implied on my part.
Best regards - BB
<< <i>
<< <i>Good, I hope a get a nice original coin retruned (Note: the coin was purchased Monday in our auction). >>
A knowledgeable coin doctor who's has it in hand thinks it has been worked in two separate ways. That's your opinion of original? >>
Should a dealer that sells and continues to call this coin "original" result in collector outrage?
I view things from my perspective as someone who in midlife has recently come back to a hobby loved as a child. With the experience of half a lifetime behind me I certainly didn't re-enter the hobby naive to the impact of human nature on this or any hobby. I tried as quick as possible to learn as much as I could and am continueing to do so. I have gained quite a bit of knowledge right here on this forum and have been lucky enough to make some contacts that I feel I can trust.
I don't know the answer to your question and don't mind admitting it. For me, I have knowingly bought cleaned coins as my collecting interest does not exclusively run based upon condition. I am putting together a year set that for me would be impossible for me to complete without reverting to a couple of cleaned coins here and there.
When the subject of AT/NT comes up; I can say that I was somewhat surprised at how it is addressed. I'm sure I will learn and adapt.
If someone wants to intentionally tone a coin for whatever reason and then later sell it; I believe there is a moral responsibility to inform the buyer prior to sale. Failure to do so is deceitful and speaks to a lack of personal character, at least that is my opinion.
With the advent of TPG's which weren't around when I was a kid; it seems that some feel that IF they can doctor a coin and subsequently get it slabbed by a top tier company it absolves them from their actions; and even justifies it in some cases. What can be done? I don't know.
I would imagine that this hobby like anything else ebbs and flows as the overall market demand changes. What's "hot" today is "shunned" tomorrow. I'm not a lawyer as some here so I might not have the terminology correct but IMO those who intentionally deceive in order to profit are committing fraud. Those that profit by protecting the ones committing fraud are complicit in the fraud.
Imagine in your youth on the playgroud when marbles were the rage. I don't remember what colors were the "hot" ones but for the sake of my story lets say blue. If I'd of bought a blue marble from another kid only later to find out that he had painted it blue in order to deceive me.......... I wouldn't have griped about it to strangers; I'd of taken him out behind the gym to teach him a lesson in personal responsibility and accountability for actions.
Thanks,
Richard
<< <i>For most of us, I suspect, we'd rather be part of that TLC legacy and heritage than the happy recipient of a piece that was buffed up and candied by a coin doctor last week. >>
Well said dpoole, well said
Lincoln set Colorless Set
RichardShip
Thank you for your response. I agree with the above statement and would add it doesn't stop there because the guy who bought it will most likely sell it to someone else and he may or may not say it was artificially toned. So yes it is a ethical dilemma for original type of artificial toning.
Many years ago I learned the process of artificial toning. I also honored the obligation not to let the coin into circulation and I have pretty much religiously adhered to that principal excepting on very rare occassions.
However for an true life illustration, circa 1999, I will relate my awaking. I art toned a seated quarter that was very much cleaned, about XF. I then took it to a 30 year veteran dealer and told him I thought I bought an artificially toned coin. He throughly examined it and stated I was mistaken. He said it was a perfect original. So later that year I sold it on Ebay as artificially toned and stressed that a low bid was appropriate. Someone on the East Coast bought it and got really excited saying it was one of the nicest seated quarters he had ever purchased. He then stated he took it to a coin show and showed it to some dealers and was offered triple what he had paid for it. When he told them it was art toned they disagreed and said it was a perfect original. He also said there was no way he was selling that coin even at triple what he paid for it. If I remember right it was 1840-O no drapery 25c.
That's when I decided it was an ethical question and refrained from the practice except on an exceptionally rare basis when ethical considerations were satisfied.
One last thing. I know of a process that I will never tell anyone. I am willing to bet it would be certified by any TPG. So yes, many of us that know the process of art toning do have a conscience. And I believe I can tell art toning from the real thing just about as good as anyone, including the TPG's on "bust half dollars."
This I will tell you for sure. On bust half dollars PCGS is by far the toughest on art toning.
Best BB
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I believe that any dealer who knowingly sells a doctored coin is perpetrating a fraud on the buying public. Fraud is punishable by fine, imprisonment or both. Anyone with firsthand knowledge of a coin doctor/dealer perpetrating fraud is obligated to report the perpetrators to authorities.
As far as "dispassionate" discussions about coin doctoring, I side with those collectors who have expressed outrage. We cannot sit idly by while fraud is continuously perpetrated and simply look the other way.
Caveat emptor, read the book before you buy the coin, buy the coin not the plastic. All these cliches offer the numismatic enthuiast much great advice. But who's going to protect the hobby from the doctor/dealers if everyone is afraid to report them?
Remember TRUTH is a valid defense in any libel suit. And it is outrageous that these dubious practices are allowed to continue unabated
Edited for spelling! would smoeone please tell CU to give a spell-cheker?
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<< <i>I believe that any dealer who knowingly sells a doctored coin is perpetrating a fraud on the buying public. Fraud is punishable by fine, imprisonment or both. Anyone with firsthand knowledge of a coin doctor/dealer perpetrating fraud is obligated to report the perpetrators to authorities. >>
What about a TPG that slabs a doctored coin as market acceptable?
<< <i>What about a TPG that slabs a doctored coin as market acceptable? >>
If they knowingly slab a doctored coin and describe it with a euphamism of any sort, that is deceptive. And if the dealer/doctor is commiting fraud then I would say the TPGs are complicit in pepetrating that fraud, IMO.
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with gradeflation and doctoring."
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That could well be true for the high-end retail market-makers.
My observations of the trade over the last 40+ years convince
me that MANY dealers are very corrupt/dishonest, and MANY
dealers are VERY honest.
I doubt that any change will ever come to the industry in a
manner that will serve collectors well. An industry that is
largely built on low-balling walk-ins will always have a hard
time acting responsibly in dealing with its end-users.
Buyers simply need to educate themselves and search out
the trustworthy dealers. The same theory applies in any
consumer transaction.
I believe that any dealer who knowingly sells a doctored coin is perpetrating a fraud on the buying public. Fraud is punishable by fine, imprisonment or both. Anyone with firsthand knowledge of a coin doctor/dealer perpetrating fraud is obligated to report the perpetrators to authorities.
Die Clash
There was a recent article somewhere about a guy who doctored or touched up stamps. Ex stamp dealer. It involves millions. The FBI, State, and other legal juristictions have been fully appraised of the situation for years and have all the information. The concerned parties are not only the victims but the leading stamp collecting organizations.
After several years the guy still keeps on doing what he has been doing. This is a grey area of law.
Now prosecuting someone for adding toning to the surface of a coin is not workable no matter how hot and bothered collectors get. It just isn't going to happen, not because I say so, but because it just plainly is not going to happen.
Now compare the degree of fraud a stamp doctor is doing to what a coin doctor does. A stamp doctor tries to make a worn stamp look in a higher condition by adding colored details, whereas a coin doctor adds toning but not for the purpose of obtaining a higher grade. Now in law I would suspect there is a difference in the degree of fraud involved.
Consider this. If you were to remove some chunks of cheese stuck to the surface of a coin would that be a crime? It actually would be the local joke in the Sheriff's office.
If it is difficult to prosecute open fraud where victims don't receive anything let alone a doctored coin. It is highly unlikely law enforcement will go after coin doctors.
Click on this link. This is a national case I was involved with involving high ranking postal officials and an Ebay scammer. You will get an idea of what the legal system will do and what it won't do.
BB
AUCTION FRAUD VICTIMS FIGHT BACK
I agree that it is unlikely that any coin doctoring operation will ever face charges. But charges of fraud or theft by deception can be brought against any dealer who knowingly misrepresents a coin that is sold to the public, regardless of how it was doctored.
As for AT, the TPGs use "Market Acceptable" to slab questionably toned coins.
Earlier in the thread a poster relayed a story of first-hand experience where a Coin Dealer was in cahoots with a doctor to modify the coins so that the doctored coins could be passed off as something that they are not. This is a fraudulent practice with the intent to pofit by deceiving the customers. This is illegal and if reported, who knows, maybe it receives the same lack of attention as your stamp scenario. But at least it should be reported. IMO.
Edited to add: Interesting read on that weblink BB! Very good sleuthing work my friend.
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<< <i>Now compare the degree of fraud a stamp doctor is doing to what a coin doctor does. A stamp doctor tries to make a worn stamp look in a higher condition by adding colored details, whereas a coin doctor adds toning but not for the purpose of obtaining a higher grade. Now in law I would suspect there is a difference in the degree of fraud involved. >>
I thought a lot of coin doctors add AT to make problem coins look in a higher grade by hiding problems?
<< <i>BB I agree that it is unlikely that any coin doctoring operation will ever face charges. But charges of fraud or theft by deception can be brought against any dealer who knowingly misrepresents a coin that is sold to the public, regardless of how it was doctored. As for AT, the TPGs use "Market Acceptable" to slab questionably toned coins. Earlier in the thread a poster relayed a story of first-hand experience where a Coin Dealer was in cahoots with a doctor to modify the coins so that the doctored coins could be passed off as something that they are not. This is a fraudulent practice with the intent to pofit by deceiving the customers. This is illegal and if reported, who knows, maybe it receives the same lack of attention as your stamp scenario. But at least it should be reported. IMO. >>
Die Clash
First I hope some of the CU members click on the link I provided in the above post.
This type of legal action probably could be offered to the ANA for consideration. However under law it is a civil suit most likely. For instance if you bought a coin that was doctored for $1,000 and the seller would not refund your money you would have to hire a lawyer at $200 per hour + expenses and then go through a lengthy legal process of summons, complaint, motions, expert witnesses, provide witnesses and pay witness fees + expert witness fees which generally run about $300 per hour + hotel, food, lodging and air fare.
I suspect by the time you started trial the cost would be in excess of $30,000. Then you would have to prove conclusively that the coin was knowingly altered and that the seller intended to defraud you. Nearly impossible but if by some chance out of " one in a million" you won you would not get attorney's fees and all the costs you had involved. You would merely get back your $1,000 and the seller would get his coin back.
A well known numismatist by the name of Newman spent years dogging John J Ford over alleged frauds involving valuable assay bars, if I remember right, but it could have been other numismatic items Newman claimed they were frauds. Congress convened the Lilly commission to consider the allegations as the US government was plannning on purchasing the Lilly collection but Newman was a no show and no hearing took place. There are still some really hot numismatic rhetoric flying around over the alleged fraud.
The above paragraph is by recollection and I can stand to be corrected as to spelling and names.
BB
<< <i>Die Clash
First I hope some of the CU members click on the link I provided in the above post...
>>
A well-made point BB.
Alas we possess no power if left to our own devices because law enforcement is disinterested. And I have heard many complaints that the ANA is weak when it comes to dealing with member offenses. But I bet if I wrote them a bad check they'd bust me for theft in a New York minute.
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>BB
I agree that it is unlikely that any coin doctoring operation will ever face charges. But charges of fraud or theft by deception can be brought against any dealer who knowingly misrepresents a coin that is sold to the public, regardless of how it was doctored.
As for AT, the TPGs use "Market Acceptable" to slab questionably toned coins.
Earlier in the thread a poster relayed a story of first-hand experience where a Coin Dealer was in cahoots with a doctor to modify the coins so that the doctored coins could be passed off as something that they are not. This is a fraudulent practice with the intent to pofit by deceiving the customers. This is illegal and if reported, who knows, maybe it receives the same lack of attention as your stamp scenario. But at least it should be reported. IMO.
Edited to add: Interesting read on that weblink BB! Very good sleuthing work my friend.
Alterring US coin for fraudulent purposes is a felony. That would automatically apply to machine tooling coins (read the recent Mint PR on smooth edge Washingtons for their stance). Toning, however, would not apply, because it is not something that alters the physical aspect of the coin. And while coin collectors are comfortable with the terms "artificial toning" and "natural toning", they are inappropriate terms in my opinion, because artifical implies that artificial toning isn't real--and even if we use the "by human skill" defintion of the word, it would apply to natural toning as well, since coins are made by humans and the environment in which they are stored is also human controlled. And there is really no distinction to be made about the oxidation process, be it forced or over time, or any other method--nothing can be scientifically, tangibly measured to enforce any law or rule against the application of one method over another.
So it boils down to intent. Did he *mean* to put that coin in that Taco Bell napkin, or did the coin fall into the Taco Bell sack and sit there for 4 years? Did he *know* that the old Wayte Raymond album toned coins prematurely, or did he store them in the album because it's all they had back then? Did he drop the coin on a hunk of oak in the forest or did he dubiously place the coin there hoping for the effect? Did he naively store his coins by the window sill or did he do it on purpose? And someone's intent cannot be determined unless he or she tells us, and coin doctors out to deceive won't tell, so the intent aspect is meaningless and irrelevent because it's impossible to enforce. So third party graders merely guess--brilliantly toned pieces, without dubious intent, are rejected while coins with hastened toning make their way into slabs. It's a joke, really. To hold on to the notion that natural means something, that it's the "acceptable" form of toning is to hold on to a fantasy that never could be realized in practice. So everyone guesses. Some of the Battle Creek morgan dollars have circus toning that would immediately raise red flags of everyone on this forum had the coin not already been in a slab. And on the same token, many subtley toned coins "pass" simply because they aren't wild enough to raise suspicion. So for people into toners, they're kidding themselves if they think there is any way to truly know one way or the other.