Awhile back I asked the board if deliberate storage in old albums or Taco Bell napkins is just another kind of ATing. I got some defensive responses. I said okay, your acts are fine since they are replicating old-time storage.
Truly I think that the whole debate is ridiculous. Apparently AT coins get slabbed -- like that Franklin with the cute story, seen in another thread -- and plenty of NT coins are unattractive. It seems that both AT and NT activity can produce attractive coins.
I read that a doc with high-tech equipment that is getting paid five figures a month by a(n apparently high-volume) dealer. If that rumor is true, no doubt there are other similar operations in place and that pretty much spells the end of confident differentiation between NT and AT.
What I think really matters is whether the coin is attractive or not. If the AT bust half looks EXACTLY like an NT half, why in the hell should it matter how the coin got that way? I'm getting tired of seeing great coins posted only to see the inevitable post rip it as "AT."
Collectors are going to continue to establish what *appearance* of toning as acceptable and what is not. The bad ATers will keep losing buyers and the ugly NTers will continue to go for low prices, if at all. The bodybag message "questionable toning" will come to mean "questionably tasteful." Bad AT technique will see less and less rewards.
I think that another consequence of the doctors' work is that the market prices for attractively toned pieces are going to plummet as skilled doctors eventually meet market demand.
<< <i>. . . And someone's intent cannot be determined unless he or she tells us, and coin doctors out to deceive won't tell, so the intent aspect is meaningless and irrelevent because it's impossible to enforce. . . So for people into toners, they're kidding themselves if they think there is any way to truly know one way or the other. >>
I believe that the images below strongly suggest intent here. The link to the original thread: Proven AT coin
If memory serves me right this coin sold at auction in two different slabs - one blast white and the other colored, within a few months time-span. I'm not certain who is responsible, but they definitely had intent. In fact I think the toned coin brought several thousand more $ than when the same coin sold without the artificial colors. The profit motive speaks to intent. So we don't need the doctor's admission. Prima facia evidence. So IMO it's not impossible, meaningless or irrelevant.
<< <i>
Come on, PCGS - hunt the bastage down and publicly flay him! >>
Edited to fix the Link.
Edited once again to add this post from the original thread:
So it took less than 8 months to get that "centuries old toned look"? >>
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
DieClash, what you have there is strong evidence, but it's not an across the board method of ensuring coins aren't AT. We can monitor high ticket auctions and rarities, but beyond that you can't identify every coin sold at a later date to see if it has undergone changes. It may work for high publicity sales, but how is that going to transfer to the millions of more common coins that sell every year? I mean we could break into someone's garage and find a whole coin doctor setup, and then maybe deduce that everything he's sold for the past decade isn't original, but that's not a solution to a problem that *might* affect the collections of tens of millions of people already, and certainly more in the future. But yes, the other poster has a point in that one way to detect AT is to dip the coin and see what lies beneath. But then you've removed the toning! That's like trying to drown a witch and if she drowns she wasn't a witch after all. Oops! But the "I will only collect brilliant coins" philosophy is nothing new--that was the big thing until a few decades ago. And back then the doctors found ways to shine em up and whiz the surfaces (these were crude methods most people could detect upon inspection but who's to say better methods cannot be developed now?) It also flies in the face of those crusty all original collectors. I've since amended my opinion about certain coins, like the early flowing hairs and draped busts--those coins are super rare and desirable even if in pieces. Best to keep those out of circulation and preserve what's left, and with *most* of them cleaning, dipping, and toning probably doesn't matter all that much at this point anyway, unless we're talking one that isn't so worn it looks like a smooth disc with a few pimples.
This thread seems to have drifted into the familiar direction of whether doctoring a coin is illegal, how illegal it is if so, and whether it's worth the cost of legally purusing it.
The only point is that the act is dishonorable, dishonest and destructive to the hobby if the coin doctor presents the coin for sale, or allows it to be presented for sale, as authentic and natural--because such characterizations do matter to most buyers. And that being the case, it IS worthwhile to know if a coin has been messed with however it may look, and it IS worthwhile to know who is selling doctored coins, so that people can avoid them and boycott them.
<< <i>This thread seems to have drifted into the familiar direction of whether doctoring a coin is illegal, how illegal it is if so, and whether it's worth the cost of legally purusing it.
The only point is that the act is dishonorable, dishonest and destructive to the hobby if the coin doctor presents the coin for sale, or allows it to be presented for sale, as authentic and natural--because such characterizations do matter to most buyers. And that being the case, it IS worthwhile to know if a coin has been messed with however it may look, and it IS worthwhile to know who is selling doctored coins, so that people can avoid them and boycott them. >>
I am neither for nor against toning coins Basestealer. And I agree with dpoole's assessment above.
What the OP opined was if there is a list of "known doctors" out there. There isn't. But then if it were that simple the thread wouldn't be over a 100-count right now.
Doctoring involves a number of different coin-altering techniques and not just so-called AT. Fact is coin-toning chemistry doesn't differentiate between AT and NT. The same chemical reactions occur regardless of how quickly the coin is toned. I like pretty coins and I don't discriminate whether it is a blast white (probably dipped) or a pretty rainbow toner (probably AT or rather intentionally toned, if you will).
What I despise is that if someone sells me a coin and represents it as "original", and then if it turns out that the coin was "doctored", then I made a purchase based on false pretesnes. That misrepresentation I think is fraudulent, intentional theft by deception. If someone doctors a coin by toning it and they represent it as such, no problem.
Do I think I can truly find a classic coin (other than GSA Morgans) that hasn't been doctored (dipped, whizzed, thumbed, toned or god knows what) at some point in its liftime, I sincerely doubt it (but that's a topic for another thread).
No Doctor list exists. But perhaps it should. I think if people knew that they were buying intentionally doctored coins represented as originals, then collectors would benefit from such a list of doctors. If I knew a dealer sold intentionally doctored coins, then I could decide whether to purchase from them or take my business elsewhere.
Do I think such a list will ever happen. Nope.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>I think that another consequence of the doctors' work is that the market prices for attractively toned pieces are going to plummet as skilled doctors eventually meet market demand. >>
Folks have been saying that for years now and it just ain't happening. Prices remain extremely strong for wildly toned common coins: example and another
Also like to add: I think that whole "intent" definition of AT just doesn't hold water. Someone puts a brilliant coin In a Wayte Raymond album for a few years , knowing that it may aquire pretty toning. So that makes them a Coin Doc? That is just plain silly IMO.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
I think that another consequence of the doctors' work is that the market prices for attractively toned pieces are going to plummet as skilled doctors eventually meet market demand.
I agree. Once the doctors are good enough to consistently fool the best of us, we won't need the real thing.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No doubt there are lists of coin docs out there. You just won't ever see them published here or in Coin World. I'm sure the collective forum could probably put together a fairly comprehensive list if there were no repercussions.
One way to "avoid" the problem is to either buy fully brilliant coins or coins with decades old pedigrees that look the part (Norweb, Eliasberg, Stack, Pittman, Ford, Redfield, WGC, and dozens of others). While this is not a guarantee, it's a good place to start. This also means your research skills are up to snuff as well as your grading skills. Knowing your dealer is great asset as well.
1. NCS 2. MOC 3. GotoToning Coins 4. GMarguli 5. Big-Arse dealer who pays dude $75k per month to "work" coins 6. Dude who AT'd the Gobretcht and got it into a PCGS holder
1. NCS 2. MOC 3. GotoToning Coins 4. GMarguli 5. Big-Arse dealer who pays dude $75k per month to "work" coins 6. Dude who AT'd the Gobretcht and got it into a PCGS holder >>
I wonder if MOC means anything to the newbs? You might want to spell it out.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
This business is all about money. Anyone that can add value to a coin is not an enemy. A list of Coin Doctors? I'm sure there is a list, maybe not on paper but Doctors are obviously known to many. But a list of Doctors is an asset to be protected. Don't look for any lists to be made available to anyone with bad intentions.
This thread turned 250,000 new collectors away from classics/toners toward moderns that are encapsulated with the "FIRST STRIKE™'' Label. I appreciate the honesty of basestealer, too. BiddlesBank was trying to do a service for ALL collectors. Too bad he got in a war of words that spilled over to implying a punch in the nose.
<< <i> BiddlesBank was trying to do a service for ALL collectors. Too bad he got in a war of words that spilled over to implying a punch in the nose.
Ya gotta love this place >>
I haven't seen BB for awhile. Was he banned? If so, what did he say to get banned?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>This business is all about money. Anyone that can add value to a coin is not an enemy. A list of Coin Doctors? I'm sure there is a list, maybe not on paper but Doctors are obviously known to many. But a list of Doctors is an asset to be protected. Don't look for any lists to be made available to anyone with bad intentions. >>
What do you mean by anyone with bad intentions? People who want such a list, or coin doctors?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>This business is all about money. Anyone that can add value to a coin is not an enemy. A list of Coin Doctors? I'm sure there is a list, maybe not on paper but Doctors are obviously known to many. But a list of Doctors is an asset to be protected. Don't look for any lists to be made available to anyone with bad intentions. >>
What do you mean by anyone with bad intentions? People who want such a list, or coin doctors? >>
This coin is very ill Is there a Doctor in the house? Wait, didn't I just see NCS at the top of the list?
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I'd probably go for an almost all black complete coverage for that peace dollar, die clash. It will cover up the polish marks. The only problem is if someone recognizes the quality underneath the toning and decides to dip it white again--they'll see it.
basestealer, someone on another thread suggested making it a pocket piece. Unfortunately I think it would have to circulate quite awhile to cover up those deep scratch-marks.
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>By the time you pocket piece that back to original, it will only be worth melt. >>
MELTING POINT – 961.78 DEGREES C. / 1763.20 DEGREES F.
The energy it takes to melt it ain't worth it >>
That's why it needs a Doctor! If NCS can't handle it I see MOC is #2 on the list. And then there's always that "Dude who AT'd the Gobrecht and got it into a PCGS holder".
See this thread may turn out to be very useful afterall!
Calling all Doctors. Is there a Coin Doctor in the House?
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Per GMarguli's posts over at Sleepy Hollow, this coin is a 1864-L proof that sold for $50k.
I would be interested in hearing from those who viewed the coin when it was auctioned (especially Rick Snow) what the coin looks like in hand (the image looks juiced). what they know about the coin's provenance, and whether they think the coin has been worked. >>
Forgot to mention who holdered the coin.
<< <i>BTW, they aren't the same coin. People just assumed that they were. And people just assumed I was going to try and turn the coin blue. Coin #2 is a "With L" variety and sold a few years back for over 50K. Mintage 20. It's in a PCGS slab. I think the coin is clearly worked. I'm not positive, but I believe it was recently handled by a dealer who posts on the PCGS forums. >>
Comments
Awhile back I asked the board if deliberate storage in old albums or Taco Bell napkins is just another kind of ATing. I got some defensive responses. I said okay, your acts are fine since they are replicating old-time storage.
Truly I think that the whole debate is ridiculous. Apparently AT coins get slabbed -- like that Franklin with the cute story, seen in another thread -- and plenty of NT coins are unattractive. It seems that both AT and NT activity can produce attractive coins.
I read that a doc with high-tech equipment that is getting paid five figures a month by a(n apparently high-volume) dealer. If that rumor is true, no doubt there are other similar operations in place and that pretty much spells the end of confident differentiation between NT and AT.
What I think really matters is whether the coin is attractive or not. If the AT bust half looks EXACTLY like an NT half, why in the hell should it matter how the coin got that way? I'm getting tired of seeing great coins posted only to see the inevitable post rip it as "AT."
Collectors are going to continue to establish what *appearance* of toning as acceptable and what is not. The bad ATers will keep losing buyers and the ugly NTers will continue to go for low prices, if at all. The bodybag message "questionable toning" will come to mean "questionably tasteful." Bad AT technique will see less and less rewards.
I think that another consequence of the doctors' work is that the market prices for attractively toned pieces are going to plummet as skilled doctors eventually meet market demand.
<< <i>. . . And someone's intent cannot be determined unless he or she tells us, and coin doctors out to deceive won't tell, so the intent aspect is meaningless and irrelevent because it's impossible to enforce. . . So for people into toners, they're kidding themselves if they think there is any way to truly know one way or the other. >>
I believe that the images below strongly suggest intent here. The link to the original thread: Proven AT coin
If memory serves me right this coin sold at auction in two different slabs - one blast white and the other colored, within a few months time-span. I'm not certain who is responsible, but they definitely had intent. In fact I think the toned coin brought several thousand more $ than when the same coin sold without the artificial colors. The profit motive speaks to intent. So we don't need the doctor's admission. Prima facia evidence. So IMO it's not impossible, meaningless or irrelevant.
<< <i>
Come on, PCGS - hunt the bastage down and publicly flay him! >>
Edited to fix the Link.
Edited once again to add this post from the original thread:
<< <i>
<< <i>Just to clarify: The first coin sold in an NCS holder as Proof, improperly cleaned for $19,550 on April 26, 2006
<a href="http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=404&Lot_No=2164&src=pr">http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=404&Lot_No=2164&src=pr</A>
And the after one, same coin in a PCGS PR-63 holder for $46,000 on January 2, 2007
<a href="http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=422&Lot_No=1052&src=pr">http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=422&Lot_No=1052&src=pr</A> >>
So it took less than 8 months to get that "centuries old toned look"?
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Die Clash
$26,000 for a little color. You could paint several houses for that much. That's some pretty expensive color.
As one collector said. " I want my coins dipped so I know what I am getting." The more this discussion goes on the wiser his statement sounds.
BB
1. Be verryy careful of the coins you buy
2. Be verryy careful who you buy coins from
3.Listen to that inner voice that warns you of danger.
Camelot
The only point is that the act is dishonorable, dishonest and destructive to the hobby if the coin doctor presents the coin for sale, or allows it to be presented for sale, as authentic and natural--because such characterizations do matter to most buyers. And that being the case, it IS worthwhile to know if a coin has been messed with however it may look, and it IS worthwhile to know who is selling doctored coins, so that people can avoid them and boycott them.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
the doctors are rather large in number. While all of the doctors are known
as to who they are and where they can be contacted, it is not
considered healthy to divulge such information. Otherwise a visit from
some unsavory characters , may be in the offing.
Camelot
<< <i>This thread seems to have drifted into the familiar direction of whether doctoring a coin is illegal, how illegal it is if so, and whether it's worth the cost of legally purusing it.
The only point is that the act is dishonorable, dishonest and destructive to the hobby if the coin doctor presents the coin for sale, or allows it to be presented for sale, as authentic and natural--because such characterizations do matter to most buyers. And that being the case, it IS worthwhile to know if a coin has been messed with however it may look, and it IS worthwhile to know who is selling doctored coins, so that people can avoid them and boycott them. >>
I am neither for nor against toning coins Basestealer. And I agree with dpoole's assessment above.
What the OP opined was if there is a list of "known doctors" out there. There isn't. But then if it were that simple the thread wouldn't be over a 100-count right now.
Doctoring involves a number of different coin-altering techniques and not just so-called AT. Fact is coin-toning chemistry doesn't differentiate between AT and NT. The same chemical reactions occur regardless of how quickly the coin is toned. I like pretty coins and I don't discriminate whether it is a blast white (probably dipped) or a pretty rainbow toner (probably AT or rather intentionally toned, if you will).
What I despise is that if someone sells me a coin and represents it as "original", and then if it turns out that the coin was "doctored", then I made a purchase based on false pretesnes. That misrepresentation I think is fraudulent, intentional theft by deception. If someone doctors a coin by toning it and they represent it as such, no problem.
Do I think I can truly find a classic coin (other than GSA Morgans) that hasn't been doctored (dipped, whizzed, thumbed, toned or god knows what) at some point in its liftime, I sincerely doubt it (but that's a topic for another thread).
No Doctor list exists. But perhaps it should. I think if people knew that they were buying intentionally doctored coins represented as originals, then collectors would benefit from such a list of doctors. If I knew a dealer sold intentionally doctored coins, then I could decide whether to purchase from them or take my business elsewhere.
Do I think such a list will ever happen. Nope.
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Doctoring is big business. The knowing clients of
the doctors are rather large in number. While all of the doctors are known
as to who they are and where they can be contacted, it is not
considered healthy to divulge such information. Otherwise a visit from
some unsavory characters , may be in the offing. >>
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
<< <i>I think that another consequence of the doctors' work is that the market prices for attractively toned pieces are going to plummet as skilled doctors eventually meet market demand. >>
Folks have been saying that for years now and it just ain't happening. Prices remain extremely strong for wildly toned common coins: example and another
Also like to add: I think that whole "intent" definition of AT just doesn't hold water. Someone puts a brilliant coin In a Wayte Raymond album for a few years , knowing that it may aquire pretty toning. So that makes them a Coin Doc? That is just plain silly IMO.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>The sum total of this thread is as follows;
1. Be verryy careful of the coins you buy
2. Be verryy careful who you buy coins from
3.Listen to that inner voice that warns you of danger. >>
yes indeedy - if you hear a bear growling in the woods to your right ; you simply run like hell to your left !
I agree. Once the doctors are good enough to consistently fool the best of us, we won't need the real thing.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
One way to "avoid" the problem is to either buy fully brilliant coins or coins with decades old pedigrees that look the part (Norweb, Eliasberg, Stack, Pittman, Ford, Redfield, WGC, and dozens of others). While this is not a guarantee, it's a good place to start. This also means your research skills are up to snuff as well as your grading skills. Knowing your dealer is great asset as well.
roadrunner
1. NCS
2. MOC
3. GotoToning Coins
4. GMarguli
5. Big-Arse dealer who pays dude $75k per month to "work" coins
6. Dude who AT'd the Gobretcht and got it into a PCGS holder
Jerry
<< <i>Who did the blue IH's?
Jerry >>
Lots of people - it was common knowledge.
<< <i>Die Clash
$26,000 for a little color. You could paint several houses for that much. That's some pretty expensive color.
As one collector said. " I want my coins dipped so I know what I am getting." The more this discussion goes on the wiser his statement sounds.
BB >>
It was not $26,000 for color. It was $26,000 for going from a problem holder to a problem free holder.
The artificial toning arguement aside, there are thousands upon thousands of coins in problem free holders that have had lots of restoration work.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Updated list:
1. NCS
2. MOC
3. GotoToning Coins
4. GMarguli
5. Big-Arse dealer who pays dude $75k per month to "work" coins
6. Dude who AT'd the Gobretcht and got it into a PCGS holder >>
I wonder if MOC means anything to the newbs? You might want to spell it out.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I appreciate the honesty of basestealer, too. BiddlesBank was trying to do a service for ALL collectors. Too bad he got in a war of words that spilled over to implying a punch in the nose.
Ya gotta love this place
<< <i> BiddlesBank was trying to do a service for ALL collectors. Too bad he got in a war of words that spilled over to implying a punch in the nose.
Ya gotta love this place
I haven't seen BB for awhile. Was he banned? If so, what did he say to get banned?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>This business is all about money. Anyone that can add value to a coin is not an enemy. A list of Coin Doctors? I'm sure there is a list, maybe not on paper but Doctors are obviously known to many. But a list of Doctors is an asset to be protected. Don't look for any lists to be made available to anyone with bad intentions. >>
What do you mean by anyone with bad intentions? People who want such a list, or coin doctors?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>This business is all about money. Anyone that can add value to a coin is not an enemy. A list of Coin Doctors? I'm sure there is a list, maybe not on paper but Doctors are obviously known to many. But a list of Doctors is an asset to be protected. Don't look for any lists to be made available to anyone with bad intentions. >>
What do you mean by anyone with bad intentions? People who want such a list, or coin doctors? >>
This coin is very ill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>By the time you pocket piece that back to original, it will only be worth melt. >>
MELTING POINT – 961.78 DEGREES C. / 1763.20 DEGREES F.
The energy it takes to melt it ain't worth it
<< <i>
<< <i>By the time you pocket piece that back to original, it will only be worth melt. >>
MELTING POINT – 961.78 DEGREES C. / 1763.20 DEGREES F.
The energy it takes to melt it ain't worth it
That's why it needs a Doctor!
See this thread may turn out to be very useful afterall!
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
It must take nads of steel to work on a coin with that much financial punch....
<< <i>
<< <i>Good, I hope a get a nice original coin retruned (Note: the coin was purchased Monday in our auction). >>
A knowledgeable coin doctor who's has it in hand thinks it has been worked in two separate ways. That's your opinion of original? >>
How did this comment get over looked? Laura?
-Paul
<< <i>
Per GMarguli's posts over at Sleepy Hollow, this coin is a 1864-L proof that sold for $50k.
I would be interested in hearing from those who viewed the coin when it was auctioned (especially Rick Snow) what the coin looks like in hand (the image looks juiced). what they know about the coin's provenance, and whether they think the coin has been worked. >>
Forgot to mention who holdered the coin.
<< <i>BTW, they aren't the same coin. People just assumed that they were. And people just assumed I was going to try and turn the coin blue. Coin #2 is a "With L" variety and sold a few years back for over 50K. Mintage 20. It's in a PCGS slab. I think the coin is clearly worked. I'm not positive, but I believe it was recently handled by a dealer who posts on the PCGS forums. >>
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts