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1859 Transitional Pattern Indian Cent J-228 - Is it really a pattern?

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
There are well over a thousand in existence and only a few are proofs. Were the non-proofs intended to circulate? Remember, 1856 was only three years earlier, and there are thousands of 1856 Flying Eagle cents.

image
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A product of the mint's early years of mass marketing to collectors. They are patterns.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • tjkilliantjkillian Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭
    Considering they were making cents for the general population in the millions and tens of millions at the time, I'd also have to say that they were patterns.
    Tom

  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    It says that it's a pattern on the slab, doesn't it?
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • Aegis3Aegis3 Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭


    << <i>A product of the mint's early years of mass marketing to collectors. They are patterns. >>



    There you go. If they were for circulation, wouldn't there be a whole lot more of them circulated?
    --

    Ed. S.

    (EJS)
  • <<there are thousands of 1856 Flying Eagle cents. >>

    My Red Book says only 2000 minted. While technically "thousands" is correct, your phrasing is a little misleading. Also, Rick Snow's site Eagle Eye Rare Coins says only about 300 or so of the J-228 are believed to have been made.

    He's on the Boards from time to time, maybe he'll show up and confirm this for us .......
    Spare your best friend's life!! Adopt an adult dog at your local "kill" animal shelter. You will be changed.
  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭
    Interesting question.
    It would appear that it is a question of mint intent.
    From a valuation standpoint a very low population regular issue would make this a very valuable coin. As a transitional pattern it is relatively common and affordable.
    Andy may want to encourage its addition to the red book. For those of you who wish to speculate on this happening or just want a nice pattern perhaps he has a few for sale.
    Trime
  • dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭


    << <i>There are well over a thousand in existence and only a few are proofs. Were the non-proofs intended to circulate? Remember, 1856 was only three years earlier, and there are thousands of 1856 Flying Eagle cents. Andy Lustig >>



    They are patterns. On December 14, 1859, Treasury Secretary Howell Cobb authorized the addition of the shield to the reverse,
    beginning in 1860. At the same time changes were authorized for the dime and half dime.

    Denga
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    Is there any record when the 1859's with the shield were struck?

    Would you consider turning on your PM, Denga, or send me your email address, [email protected]? Many thanx.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

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  • dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭
    Julian Thursday April 05, 2007 6:27 PM

    Is there any record when the 1859's with the shield were struck?


    Mint Director Snowden sent samples with his letter of December 13 so it can be safely assumed that this
    pattern was first struck only a few days before that. The December 13 letter also proves that mail moved
    a bit faster in those days. Specimens were also no doubt struck in 1860 for sale to collectors.

    Denga
  • CaptainRonCaptainRon Posts: 1,189 ✭✭


    << <i>There are well over a thousand in existence and only a few are proofs. Were the non-proofs intended to circulate? Remember, 1856 was only three years earlier, and there are thousands of 1856 Flying Eagle cents. >>



    Are you suggesting that since there is a rather large mintage of MS examples, that you would rather see them identified as a type 1 and type 2, like many other series?

    Just curious how many 1858 IHC's were minted, that were not proof?

    image
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    So, let's assume that Snowden sent proofs on 12/13 and after Cobb authorized them, theoretically for 1860, that some
    commercial strikes of the 1859's were struck and released.

    Maybe, a little far fetched, but what if?

    And then, of course, maybe all of the uncirculated coins were made for the same people that wanted 1856 FE's and were not made until 1860, or later.

    This then raises some questions about J-208, the 1858 Indian with the reverse of 1859. Some of these were issued as commercial strikes. Perhaps, they were issued along with the 1856's, 1859's in the 1860's.

    If only some of the midnight minters kept records. There would not be quite as many questions.

    Many thanx for your thoughts, Denga.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    ttt
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Just a reminder that we presently have only a small percentage of correspondence that might have dealt with this design change. In later years there are quite a few instances of Congress requesting examples of pattern and experimental pieces. To speculate: such a request, either from Sec. Cobb or the House Coinage Committee, could easily account for hundreds of 1859 specimens being struck without the coin being intended for general circulation.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Julian - Have you ever seen an unquestionably proof J-228? I haven't.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,429 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So, let's assume that Snowden sent proofs on 12/13 and after Cobb authorized them, theoretically for 1860, that some
    commercial strikes of the 1859's were struck and released.

    Maybe, a little far fetched, but what if?

    And then, of course, maybe all of the uncirculated coins were made for the same people that wanted 1856 FE's and were not made until 1860, or later.

    This then raises some questions about J-208, the 1858 Indian with the reverse of 1859. Some of these were issued as commercial strikes. Perhaps, they were issued along with the 1856's, 1859's in the 1860's.

    If only some of the midnight minters kept records. There would not be quite as many questions.

    Many thanx for your thoughts, Denga. >>



    Let me fire up the ol' time machine and go check.......

    Actually, I have never really thought about it, but I could be talked into calling both the 1858 Rev. of '59 and the 1859 Rev. of '60 limited edition regular issues. The 1856 cents are a good precedent.

    The 1836 Reeded Edge halves can arguably be called trial pieces, but they are collected as a regular issue because they did circulate. I personally consider the 1864 SMall Motto two cents pieces to be patterns, that were then struck in larger numbers and circulated.

    The 1907 Wire Rim With Periods $10's were struck and released because Teddy Roosevelt ordered them to be struck and released, even though the development of the design was still in the experimental stage. Because they were released we collect them as part of the regular series.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭✭
    Virtually all of the Judd-228's I've ever seen had no wear.

    That is not true of the 1836 Reeded edge halves, the 1856 Flying Eagle 1c's or even the 1836 Gobrecht dollars.

    Doesn't it seem more logical that these were handed out to people of importance (legistlators or whomever) in the "finish" that would actually circulate? Then, most recipients put them in a drawer rather than spend them.

    Or, perhaps the mint had 800 (or whatever) specimens left over from this "sample distribution" years ago and dribbled them out (or sold them en masse) to collectors sometime later?

  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    I have seen proof-like examples, but cannot remember ever seeing a coin that was equal to another proof copper nickel cent.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭
    CaptHenway Friday April 06, 2007 12:02 PM

    The 1836 Reeded Edge halves can arguably be called trial pieces, but they are collected as a regular issue because they did circulate.

    TD


    In this one case I will disagree. The 1836 reeded-edge pieces were delivered under warrant from the director and are legal coins. However,
    the mintage was included in monthly reports with the lettered-edge pieces and the often seen figure of 1,200 is really an estimate based on
    the fact that 1,034,200 halves were delivered in December 1836. The correct reeded-edge mintage is probably more like 4,200. It is worth noting
    that the 1836 reeded-edge half dollar is an absolute must for a complete type set as the weight and fineness vary from the 1837 issue.

    Denga
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Coins cost money to produce. The mint did not like to strike coins, then not use them.

    In a somewhat later era, there is evidence that the mint sometimes decided that trial strikes were so nearly identical with production pieces that they were released into circulation. Offhand, I can think of the 1877 double eagles from Philadelphia, 1922 low relief trial strikes (several hundred thousand coins); 1892 quarters with the first star arrangement were made because there wasn’t time to do a trial run so they might fit, 1916 quarters might also fit into this.

    There are other trial strikes that we know were intended to be destroyed, but a few survived: 1922 high relief dollars, 1922 medium relief dollars, 1916 high relief dimes (August), 1907 $10 with normal rim/periods.

    There were others in both categories and if anyone wants the info send me a note and I’ll dig through the files.

  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i>Julian - Have you ever seen an unquestionably proof J-228? I haven't. >>



    I have and I owned it
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    Do you still own it, Ron? It seems like it would be a perfect complement to the 1858 set.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i>Do you still own it, Ron? It seems like it would be a perfect complement to the 1858 set. >>



    No, sold it a couple of years ago - It was in my Pattern display at he 2003 Baltimore ANA - The coin was a no questions asked Proof - Squared rims and mirrored fields - I've seen a second one that was also a proof - but in proof it is very scarce. I also had all of the 1859 1CN patterns - they are also very scarce - in comparison the 1858 12 piece set is actually "easy" to assemble, although some of the 1858 varieties are quite tough to find - particularly the way I like them

    Edited to add: The answer to Andy's question is that the 1859 Transitional Pattern Indian Cent J-228 is really a pattern, as is the 1856 FE Cent - Putting the 1856 FE Cent in the Redbook (or maybe the early bluebook) is what "Made" it a "regular issue" coin. Plus the fact that the old Whitman albumn has a "space" reserved for the 1856 FE cent led people to believe that it was a regular issue. The restriking of the 1856 from 1858 thru 1860 was undoubtedly done to satisfy collector demand for that coin - I'm not sure who was making money from its sale, but I think Snowden had a cottage industry going at the mint with all the various patterns that were struck or re-struck to satisfy collectors - Though I think I read that he was putting together a collection of Washington Medals and if someone was willing to trade a scarce Washington medal to the Mint Cabinet, Snowden would be very accommodating as to providing "Made to Order" coins/patterns. The above from memory - I'd have to do some research in my library if anyone wanted the data that supports what I just wrote.
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Here's a PR-64 example >>



    What is the pattern that seems to be imprinted on the obverse?
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The question of whether the 1859 Shield cents (J-228) are regular issues or patterns cannot really be judged by comparison.

    1856 FE cents have less of a standing as a regular issue than the 1859 Shield cents. The 1856's were made prior to authorizing legislation and then restruck and sold to collectors.
    Just because tradition holds that 1856 are listed as part of the series, then the tradition is what makes it part of the set.

    The 1859 Shield cents were listed in the Standard Catalog, successfully placed there by Q. David Bowers and Walter Breen in 1957. The Red Book didn't list them. Then the Standard Catalog stopped being published and because of that and the popularity of the Red Book, the 1859 Shield cent fell off the regular issue list.


    If 1,000 were struck, they mostly never entered circulation, although I presently have an AU55 example (cherrypicked recently by another dealer as a regular 1859). I suspect that in 1859 a dealer (Edward Cogan, perhaps) bought the entire mintage for $10 and sold them off over the next 40 years. Would that prevent them from being called a regular issue? Why would the mint make a pattern striking of 1,000 mint state pieces?

    Also, there are no copper trial pieces for this die combination. If it were truly a pattern, that would be expected. Of course, the lack of something doesn't prove anything.

    I have come around in the past couple months from thinking these were patterns to thinking they were struck as regular issues. I have bought every one I saw since then.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What is the pattern that seems to be imprinted on the obverse?

    Irregularity in the planchet alloy.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s probably not a coincidence that the 1860 Transitional Half Dimes were also produced as non-proofs, and in quantities larger than usually seen for patterns.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,429 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Old thread re-revival.

    Let's throw the 1836 Reeded Edge Half Dollar into the soup as well. Pattern or regular issue?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

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