The 1859 Copper-Nickel Indian, Circulation Strike or Pattern?

manofwar1

I am wondering if folks have a strong opinion either way and whether most folks realize "RedBook", has made this distinction, that it is a Circulation Strike.
Thoughts?
manofwar 1

Crypto

All 59 Indians are Copper nickel save for a few Judd proofs I think. Do you mean the shield rev 59?

manofwar1

Yes, exactly, I have to say It seems about time folks realize a person only look to the previous example of the "1856" Flying Eagle to explain the actions of the mint.

manofwar1

I guess I should specify, JUDD 228, shown and previously said to be a patten coin.

Crypto

I think it is a pattern at best and a novodel at worst made for collectors. I know the story but it reeks of A well-managed Dealer promotion with no actual facts.

What we know-
-They are unknown circulated outside of a few misshandled coins. The 1916 quarter was such a one off issue and are mostly gone because of it.

-it appears they went straight to a dealer meaning they knew what they made and he knew what they were. doesn't sound like coins meant to circulate

-There simply are almost countless variations and fantasy combos of the early small cents all the way from 1856-1859. It would seem opportunistic (in a dealer kind of way) to say that one is a regular issue.

-that was the height of the playing around period of the mint. While I don’t have issues with the crazy products it shines a made-to-order light on all of them and IMHO a coin need more evidence not less to be considered not collector special issue.

Note have one as an Indian fan so if people wanted to include it in the set and prices take off I’m ok with that but I just think it’s an emotional argument by owners and not an Academic one. Post em if you got them

manofwar1

Well I think you could be right but I would also say I think it worked. The little I do know so far is things read that are available to anyone developing a collection. Most of this has been discussed for years and wasn't it like 2014 Red Book followed through and I believed just recently NGC has started grading these coins as such.
I put one away 35 years ago a MS 64 OGF. I do not know whether PCGS is grading the coins as circulation strikes, so I too am covered and I will confess I want them to be treated exactly like the 1856 Flying Eagle.
Manofwar1

CaptHenway

In my opinion it is a pattern that sometimes circulated. I recognize that there are other opinions.

Crypto

@CaptHenway said:
In my opinion it is a pattern that sometimes circulated. I recognize that there are other opinions.

“Sometimes circulated” I’m not sure they did Capt, there are multiples more 66s than all grades 58 and below combined in the pop reports. Ave grade is 64 with for an issue that old and with hundreds graded, that says something. Most of the cirs are AUs which really are just collector mishandled UNCs most times.

Even if a couple were spent down to lower grades that isn’t unique or even that uncommon for patterns.

Zoins

Here's a Judd-228 seen by our hosts.

Zoins

Rick @EagleEye believes they are regular issue coins according to his website.

@EagleEye said:
The shield reverse issue has a very interesting history. about 1,000 examples were struck as the new redesigned issue in December 1859. It was produced as a regular issue, but such a limited issue was noticed and likely purchased by a local dealer. The face value was $10, so it would have been an easy purchase for a Philadelphia area dealer. They were held for a period and sold to collectors. They are legitimately a regular issue Indian cent, but because of the unusual release and a off-hand comment by the Mint Director as these being patterns, they subsequently got listed as such. The listing is Judd-228, but there is little reason for such an issuance as an experiment.

Ref: https://www.indiancent.com/1859-1c-j-228-pattern-pcgs-ms65-photo-seal-cac-43298711.html

Crypto

@Zoins said:
Rick @EagleEye believes they are regular issue coins according to his website.

@EagleEye said:
The shield reverse issue has a very interesting history. about 1,000 examples were struck as the new redesigned issue in December 1859. It was produced as a regular issue, but such a limited issue was noticed and likely purchased by a local dealer. The face value was $10, so it would have been an easy purchase for a Philadelphia area dealer. They were held for a period and sold to collectors. They are legitimately a regular issue Indian cent, but because of the unusual release and a off-hand comment by the Mint Director as these being patterns, they subsequently got listed as such. The listing is Judd-228, but there is little reason for such an issuance as an experiment.

Ref: https://www.indiancent.com/1859-1c-j-228-pattern-pcgs-ms65-photo-seal-cac-43298711.html

Or they were made for a dealer. If the only record is the mint director calling them a pattern which he would have had to opposed to a special order. Considering their appearance isn’t documented I wonder how Rick attributes them to Dec 1859 or if that is an assumption.

I agree there is little reason to make such a large emission of a prototype. It leaves it between collector special or circulation strike. I would note they ended up with collectors and never circulated, I think we can postulate that the result was the intent.

Zoins

@Crypto said:

@Zoins said:
Rick @EagleEye believes they are regular issue coins according to his website.

@EagleEye said:
The shield reverse issue has a very interesting history. about 1,000 examples were struck as the new redesigned issue in December 1859. It was produced as a regular issue, but such a limited issue was noticed and likely purchased by a local dealer. The face value was $10, so it would have been an easy purchase for a Philadelphia area dealer. They were held for a period and sold to collectors. They are legitimately a regular issue Indian cent, but because of the unusual release and a off-hand comment by the Mint Director as these being patterns, they subsequently got listed as such. The listing is Judd-228, but there is little reason for such an issuance as an experiment.

Ref: https://www.indiancent.com/1859-1c-j-228-pattern-pcgs-ms65-photo-seal-cac-43298711.html

Or they were made for a dealer. If the only record is the mint director calling them a pattern which he would have had to opposed to a special order. Considering their appearance isn’t documented I wonder how Rick attributes them to Dec 1859 or if that is an assumption.

I agree there is little reason to make such a large emission of a prototype. It leaves it between collector special or circulation strike. I would note they ended up with collectors and never circulated, I think we can postulate that the result was the intent.

Do we know which dealer ended up with these and which mint director called these a pattern?

Crypto

@Zoins said:

@Crypto said:

@Zoins said:
Rick @EagleEye believes they are regular issue coins according to his website.

@EagleEye said:
The shield reverse issue has a very interesting history. about 1,000 examples were struck as the new redesigned issue in December 1859. It was produced as a regular issue, but such a limited issue was noticed and likely purchased by a local dealer. The face value was $10, so it would have been an easy purchase for a Philadelphia area dealer. They were held for a period and sold to collectors. They are legitimately a regular issue Indian cent, but because of the unusual release and a off-hand comment by the Mint Director as these being patterns, they subsequently got listed as such. The listing is Judd-228, but there is little reason for such an issuance as an experiment.

Ref: https://www.indiancent.com/1859-1c-j-228-pattern-pcgs-ms65-photo-seal-cac-43298711.html

Or they were made for a dealer. If the only record is the mint director calling them a pattern which he would have had to opposed to a special order. Considering their appearance isn’t documented I wonder how Rick attributes them to Dec 1859 or if that is an assumption.

I agree there is little reason to make such a large emission of a prototype. It leaves it between collector special or circulation strike. I would note they ended up with collectors and never circulated, I think we can postulate that the result was the intent.

Do we know which dealer ended up with these and which mint director called these a pattern?

I don’t believe it is known just assumed since they all end up with collectors. They didn’t enter the collective hobby until the 1870s. I don’t even think the mintage of 1000 is official and more and extrapolation from the population. All the hallmarks of a midnight issue especially considering the era, same timeframe many collector specials were made.

Crypto

@EagleEye your input would be valued

Zoins

I wonder what's the earliest provenance we can find for these and if any are to a dealer?

This lot description indicates that Lorin Gilbert Parmelee had a Judd-228.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1859-p1c-indian-cent-judd-227-pollock-271-r6-pr63-ngc-cac/a/1184-3923.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

Zoins

Here are some threads with more info:

• April 4, 2007: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/578954/1859-transitional-pattern-indian-cent-j-228-is-it-really-a-pattern
• May 17, 2014: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/918144/j-228

manofwar1

This thread should be combined with the other thread about J-228
later
manofwar1
J228/P272

The popular transitional with the reverse of 1860. These exist in business strike and proof formats and are often incorporated with the regular Indian penny collection. About 1000 pieces were struck.

Examples were also struck in copper J229/P273 with fewer than a dozen known. Metallurgical analysis is recommended as color inspection which is often used is unreliable.

manofwar1

bump

retirednow

retirednow

@Zoins said:
I wonder what's the earliest provenance we can find for these and if any are to a dealer?

This lot description indicates that Lorin Gilbert Parmelee had a Judd-228.

>

there were 2 listed in an auction in 1863 - W. Elliot Woodward Roxbury, MA 10/21/1863 sold at auction by Bang Merwin & Co Lot # 2017 in the Cents section of the auction & Lot 2814 in the "Patterns"

https://archive.org/details/pricedcatalogueo00bang_1/page/n6/mode/1up?ui=embed&view=theater&wrapper=false

CaptHenway

So, they are patterns.

manofwar1

Thanks to all for this great information, Exceptional!
My Compliments,
manofwar1