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Good Stuff Drying Up but worse, its all being ruined
ScarsdaleCoin
Posts: 5,190 ✭✭✭✭✭
Many of you know how vocal I have been about original material being available....the true shame is that at the rate every original coin is being tweaked (nicest word I can post) to obtain the highest possible grade...its just a matter of time before no original coins are available.....worse most new collectors think bright and shiny is how coins look and when they see something original they think that the coin is messed up....Yikes.... 
Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
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<< <i>Many of you know how vocal I have been about original material being available....the true shame is that at the rate every original coin is being tweaked (nicest word I can post) to obtain the highest possible grade...its just a matter of time before no original coins are available.....worse most new collectors think bright and shiny is how coins look and when they see something original they think that the coin is messed up....Yikes....
I do understand why a new collector might think that, I admit I did when I first began collecting 40 years ago.....but why are old time dealers giving in to this misplaced demand and participating in the behavior?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Until premiums are not added to bright white or kaleidescope toned coins, there will continue to be many, including those who should know better, who will change their coins appearance for financial gain. The TPGs add to the problem by continuing to market grade, sending nice originally toned (but not colorful) coins back daily that upgrade by one or two points when dipped and returned to them. >>
That is exactly why original coins are being worked on. The TPGs need to stop this nonsense of rewarding dipped-and-stripped coins.
They can't be undipped!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
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<< <i>Until premiums are not added to bright white or kaleidescope toned coins, there will continue to be many, including those who should know better, who will change their coins appearance for financial gain. The TPGs add to the problem by continuing to market grade, sending nice originally toned (but not colorful) coins back daily that upgrade by one or two points when dipped and returned to them. >>
That is exactly why original coins are being worked on. The TPGs need to stop this nonsense of rewarding dipped-and-stripped coins.
They can't be undipped! >>
A real shame. Cannot say it enough.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
The "misplaced demand" is directed more at the assigned numeric grades than anything else, and it is the demand for grades that coin dippers and doctors serve. The newbie's preference for untoned coins is relatively insignificant.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That's probably backwards. It's more that the TPGs punish coins that are "too original".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Would y'all like some cheese with that w(h)ine?? Cheers, RickO >>
Doctors new slogan - "Would you like some sleeze with that grime".
Remark as they they apply artificial "originality" to your previous "rainbow" collection.
Often times, white circulated coins bring more than original ones in the same grade--it's a shame
<< <i>The TPGs need to stop this nonsense of rewarding dipped-and-stripped coins.
That's probably backwards. It's more that the TPGs punish coins that are "too original". >>
But either way, original coins get worked on to get a higher TPG grade, right?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Ah, not really, I answered, not trying to be snobby, but just a little too honestly for his tastes. I like a more natural look, I said.
The coin was grabbed, tossed back in the case and the lid was abruptly shut.
7 years on top of the refrigerator and that coin would come back BB for all kinds of reasons.
<< <i>Raw coins are naked coins and are subject to abuse just like a newborn child. They are at the mercy of their caregivers. >>
Slabbed coins too. Just take the child out of the slab ... err crib.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< The "misplaced demand" is directed more at the assigned numeric grades than anything else, and it is the demand for grades that coin dippers and doctors serve. The newbie's preference for untoned coins is relatively insignificant. >>
Is this a logical byproduct of the TPG revolution and the inevitable end result of the ANA's endorsement of the Sheldon Scale?
Reminds me of the Legend/Laura post on quality....
That's extremely funny....
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Great!!!! Another "original is good" thread!!!! Seriously, haven't we beat this subject to death already? >>
I'll agree, this subject comes up a lot in numismatic circles, but it does so in my belief because of a sense of frustration. One of the basic rules of coin collecting, or collecting in general is to leave items in their original state...it's hard for collectors to justify this in their own mind when what goes on "on the ground" so to speak, is not what's spoken about by what turns out to many times be leaders in the hobby. Add to that the confusion over TPGs and their market grading and you have a recipe for continous questioning on the subject.
IMHO someone other than "Joe Collector" has to take the lead here if anything meaningful and long lasting is to be done. A change in what's considered to be original and desireable has to come from the top down, through a change by TPGs to a system that's closer to technical grading. Groups like the ANA have to step up their efforts to inform collectors large and small about the historical significance of an original coin vs. the financial benefits to collectors/dealers that we currently see coming from coin alteration. We won't be able to make a change until perceptions of increased value to altered coins is eliminated.
<< <i>IMHO someone other than "Joe Collector" has to take the lead here if anything meaningful and long lasting is to be done. A change in what's considered to be original and desireable has to come from the top down, through a change by TPGs to a system that's closer to technical grading. Groups like the ANA have to step up their efforts to inform collectors large and small about the historical significance of an original coin vs. the financial benefits to collectors/dealers that we currently see coming from coin alteration. We won't be able to make a change until perceptions of increased value to altered coins is eliminated. >>
After my post yesterday, I'm coming to a stronger conclusion that TPGs and the ANA's endorsement of the Sheldon Scale are ultimately responsible for the situation, however unintentional it may be. Americans like things simple and what can be simpler than the Sheldon Scale's single number when backed by the authority of a trusted TPG? Higher is better, it's as simple as that for many collectors.
Many high schools have stopped assigning individual rank to students and many colleges have stopped relying on SATs because they believe some things cannot be represented by a single number. Some things can perhaps even be distorted. If you read car magazines, you'll see that when magazines rate cars, they rate them along multiple dimensions and use a weighted average to come up with a final single number. For coins, this can mean having separate grades for technical quality, strike quality, originality, eye appeal, etc. which are then used to generate a single end number.
It seems that originality cannot be adequately represented in the TPG's Sheldon Scale ratings today, however, numbers are what people focus on. If the community continues to focus on a single number that does not take originality into account, originality simply won't be that important the the vast majority of collectors and dealers.
Is this a logical byproduct of the TPG revolution and the inevitable end result of the ANA's endorsement of the Sheldon Scale?
The coins will be dipped and doctored as long as the work will fool people. It doesn't matter what the scale is, or who it is that is being fooled. So the real culprit is widespread ignorance and the only solution is education.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i><< The "misplaced demand" is directed more at the assigned numeric grades than anything else, and it is the demand for grades that coin dippers and doctors serve. The newbie's preference for untoned coins is relatively insignificant. >>
Is this a logical byproduct of the TPG revolution and the inevitable end result of the ANA's endorsement of the Sheldon Scale?
The coins will be dipped and doctored as long as the work will fool people. It doesn't matter what the scale is, or who it is that is being fooled. So the real culprit is widespread ignorance and the only solution is education. >>
The thing is that people aren't being fooled if they are going for a higher number, in the cases where dipped and doctored coins do get higher TPG grades. By assigning more points to higher graded coins, registry sets also contribute to the phenomena by "educating" people that higher technical grades on market acceptable coins are better. The importance of originality is subjective and if an entire generation of coin collectors grows up with market acceptability influencing their collecting habits, originality may simply not be important to them. Over time, originality may be important to a smaller, aging population of coin collectors. For a comparison, just look at EAC where originality doesn't influence collectors that much. Maybe that's the future for other classic coins as well.
I'm not convinced an education-only solution will be successful on a broad scale but if people pursue this I hope they are successful. However, until market acceptability and/or the grading system change, I won't be holding my breath. I see more doctored, conserved coins, in and out of slabs, ahead.
If the coin is conspicuously cleaned, wizzed, tooled, manipulated...the tpg will state that on the holder. If the coin has received a light dip, been professionally/semiprofessionally "improved" or "conserved" then all the better for the grade and the entrepreneurial submitter...but not the collector that wants to buy coins in their original condition. For example, I was recently told that one of my coins has a copper spot and that lessens the value...BS, when did this become vogue? In this modern age of manipulating coins surfaces for profit, it is the collector that loses because there are fewer target coins available and the collector might be penalized for original surfaces when it comes time to sell. It's not right but it is what it is. Demand that the TPG's cite original surfaces on the cert. and see what the prices do to "Goofy Coins" (TM).
Stay alert, stay alive!
Coin ON!
Go 'Stros
<< <i>For a comparison, just look at EAC where originality doesn't influence collectors that much. Maybe that's the future for other classic coins as well. >>
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you ever heard of "choice, average, and scudzy?" Quite frankly I think the trend towards originality shows that many collectors are turning to a more "EACish" approach to coins in general.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
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<< <i>For a comparison, just look at EAC where originality doesn't influence collectors that much. Maybe that's the future for other classic coins as well. >>
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you ever heard of "choice, average, and scudzy?" Quite frankly I think the trend towards originality shows that many collectors are turning to a more "EACish" approach to coins in general. >>
Well, the point I was making is that lots of EAC has been messed with even more than what we're talking about here, to the point TPGs won't slab them, and collectors just accept that. Am I mistaken?
I'm not sure we can say there's a trend towards originality yet but there's a trend towards people discussing it
<< <i>TextGreat!!!! Another "original is good" thread!!!! Seriously, haven't we beat this subject to death already? >>
No... I haven't posted on this tread yet....
I think MrEureka made the most interesting comment in connection TPG punishing originality... and original coins are oftern not given the deserving grade.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
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<< <i>
<< <i>For a comparison, just look at EAC where originality doesn't influence collectors that much. Maybe that's the future for other classic coins as well. >>
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you ever heard of "choice, average, and scudzy?" Quite frankly I think the trend towards originality shows that many collectors are turning to a more "EACish" approach to coins in general. >>
Well, the point I was making is that lots of EAC has been messed with even more than what we're talking about here, to the point TPGs won't slab them, and collectors just accept that. Am I mistaken? >>
I don't think that's the best interpretation. For "common" copper, EACers will try to buy the best they can afford, the "choice" coins, which basically have _no_ problems. For circulated coins (which I collect), this basically means, to a first approximation, just wear. Certainly no cleaning, no porosity, no unsightly scratches, no rim dings, &c. Then there are "average" coins, which you can consider to be typical circulated. There will be some "problems", but they will be minor. There might be a really _small_ rim ding, or a small scratch, or ever so slight porosity, or even a _well_-retoned piece. They are also not as expensive as choice pieces. Of course, as the varieties (or die states for some people!) become more and more rare, coins with more obvious problems will become more acceptable. If you are looking for a variety with only four known (and it's likely one is in the ANS and another one or two are in tightly held collections), you will take what you can get, even it's a corroded POS or has some awful rim dings (a "scudzy" coin). And if you look at prices of choice, average, and scudzy coins at the same grade level, it is clear what EACers prefer. A choice 1805 C-3 half cent in any grade is a very desirable piece, and will cost you a whole lot more than the typical C-3 (which are usually rather unattractive), even though it's only a scarce variety. I'll let other more knowledgeable EACers reply also, and they may have better comments. Tonight I'll try to remember to post some comments from CQR, which will be rather interesting.
As to slabbing, most EACers just are not for it. It's not that the coins will not necessarily be slabbed (obviously not all will), but it's just not a game that's played that often at all in the EAC world. Slabs are not considered the ideal holder for early copper, and there are conservation reasons for that and you should be able to find some threads on the subject here which can explain that much better than I can. (And in any case, slab grades are usually _higher_ than EAC grades for the same coin.)
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>I'm coming to a stronger conclusion that TPGs and the ANA's endorsement of the Sheldon Scale are ultimately responsible for the situation... >>
Same here.
I love the idea of third party grading. Plus the use of slabs has been great for protecting high grade specimens. But there appears to be an ugly side to this whole idea and that's the desire to attain the highest possible grade for a coin by whatever means possible. Greed is the primary driver.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm coming to a stronger conclusion that TPGs and the ANA's endorsement of the Sheldon Scale are ultimately responsible for the situation... >>
Same here.
I love the idea of third party grading. Plus the use of slabs has been great for protecting high grade specimens. But there appears to be an ugly side to this whole idea and that's the desire to attain the highest possible grade for a coin by whatever means possible. Greed is the primary driver. >>
There is an ugly side to everything. 'Cept maybe Scarlett Johansson.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yepper, private collections
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Many coppers are simply "cared for" by their owners - brushing and using xylol to safely remove debris and Blue Ribbon or CARE to protect the coins. Copper reacts to the environment must be "cared for" over the long term.
<< <i>The TPGs need to stop this nonsense of rewarding dipped-and-stripped coins.
That's probably backwards. It's more that the TPGs punish coins that are "too original". >>
Ain't that the truth.
Not only do they "punish" the grade, they may just bag the darn coin. Coins that have pastel toning from kraft envelopes are now bagged as "Questionable Color". In these instances one is almost "forced" to dip a coin to make it saleable.
I'm one of them...
8 Reales Madness Collection
Perhaps the coin community can borrow that term.
Every time I see an original classic head I grab it. unless of course the price is out of hand.
Nice set of 8 Reales.
Again, they will all be "original" again in 10 years. Just put them in an album and let them re-tone.
You don't think the "original" skin you crave is really original, do you? It is just 10 years or more of tarnish.
Originally these coins were carried in peoples' pockets with other coins. They rubbed against each other. They got dirty. They tarnished. They're covered in hairlines from the coins they rubbed against and the pocket material.
Jonathan
That's probably backwards. It's more that the TPGs punish coins that are "too original
This is scary; I've agreed with Andy twice in one week's time! He's absolutely right. The only toned coins which upgrade are those with booming luster / eye appeal. Imo, an original toned coin which is not a monster will not upgrade, nor will it cross from being in an NGC holder.
In terms of ruining coins, all you have to do is look at about 80% of slabbed Bust $s in various grades of AU. Look at the bright white centers which resemble those of a Washington Quarter, and the fine lines screaming "I have been cleaned!" Some of these coins have retoned over the years. Ditto re the plethora of pretty, toned CBHs in MS 65 which 'mysteriously' appeared in the last five years.
Jon, I see your point, but it's old news. This phenomena has just spread to other series of coins in the last few years.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Original seems to have become the new catch phrase of coin dealers. Did a memo go out or something? >>
If you were part of the inner circle you would have been informed.
<< <i>This is scary; I've agreed with Andy twice in one week's time! He's absolutely right. The only toned coins which upgrade are those with booming luster / eye appeal. Imo, an original toned coin which is not a monster will not upgrade, nor will it cross from being in an NGC holder. >>
Well actually, you agreed with Andy from 15 months ago. I suspect his view has not changed on this, though.
i wonder if that makes us bad people, not using it in its original condition??
make the coin original again. it just makes it toned in a very
obvious way and results in the usual response of dipped and
retoned.
<< <i>me and my wife went to her Mom's house this morning and pulled an old kitchen table out of the basement. it's in the garage now until a friend can take a look at it to make a few repairs to a crack, squaring up the leaves/joints and replacing the wooden castors with some leg extensions. then we'll strip and refinish it.
i wonder if that makes us bad people, not using it in its original condition?? >>
You need to watch the Antique Road Show.
"If this table wasn't refinished, it would be worth $10,000, but with the new finish, it's only worth $1000."
I think the tide will change and the original coins will be worth more in the long run.
Personally, I can't stand a 100+ year old coin that looks new. It looks fake to me.