. Many CU members will be reading this super thread, but will not have anything to add past what the pros have stated. These people will not be posting, but they are following this thread.
NYSOTO WHERE ARE YOU??
I can think of a few others but I don't think they post to CU. But Nysoto does and in my opinion he needs to weigh in.
The photo's back a few threads are preturb's coins. The best I can do is take a pic of a Sheridan Downey MB catalog cover for the Robinson S. Brown collection. I bought this 1805/4 O.103a in 2004, will take an image when I get it from the bank.
I don't believe the "B" state exists, because it may not be possible with the laws of physics. John Reich Journal 1/96, Chris Pilliod "Die Settings on Draped Bust and Flowing Hair Half Dollars." Chris described how all the major early half cuds were on the reverse, and theorized that the hammer die was the reverse die. Thus, the large triangular cud on 103a could not "fall out" because of gravity! There are a few small obverse cuds that may be full, and a unique larger one on 06 105"b", the rest of the huge full cuds (like my sig pic) are from reverse dies. I believe in Pilliods theory, this also is true of IHC's. If any 103"b" full cuds exist, the opposite reverse would have little, or no defintion. This is not the case with the Overton plate 103"b".
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
. Agreed. A chunk did not fall out of the die. It was fractured and floating in my opinion.
But that does not preclude the now larger question.
If the large auction houses are now calling the elevated triangular flake the "b" die state then it is only a matter of time that it will be accepted by the collecting public, whether specialist agree or not. And the just sold Heritage 1805/4 O-103b at $14,950 ANACS cleaned net 40 was a loud shot over the bow.
Also would someone please find Sheridan's description of the Shertz coin in his fixed price list 07/99. If I remember right he called it the (b) die state.
ps: I will correct preturbs photos. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I'm waiting to hear from the current custodian of that coin whether he can bring it to Baltimore next week. If he does, I'll add comparative pics to add another round of debate to this terrific thread.
Edit- Coin will be there, and we will have images to compare next Saturday!
Wow, it's hard to show a distinction between the two... they were certainly struck within a handful of strikes of each other... your piece is certainly more worn, the DeO piece being less worn but damaged. An encredible die state, both. Wonderful pics, such a classic rarity. Thanks for sharing.
Very nice.
Can anybody recreate the missing photos from this ancient thread?
(One reason why I like books. THe pictures do not die of old age.)
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Very nice.
Can anybody recreate the missing photos from this ancient thread?
(One reason why I like books. THe pictures do not die of old age.)
Those images are long gone unless the original posters put them back up or someone else saved the images prior to their deletion.
A photo census of all of the late state O-103a examples could be re-created with some work.
For those interested in this die marriage, an article with census was written by Bryce Brown, December 2007 John Reich Journal "The 1805/4 “Wide Date” Half Dollar — An Appreciation, Die Stage Analysis, and Register, Part 1" on the NNP.
My examples posted today - the lower grade is the Willasch/Robinson Brown coin, and the higher grade PCGS40 sold to "Westmoreland County Collection" then to Steve Nomura, then to me in a Sheridan Downey auction last summer.
edit - corrected provenance above
This big news since this thread was started was the mystery coin which surfaced in the Eric Newman auction Heritage 11/13/2013, it is the highest graded coin of the 103a die state, sold for $19,975
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Excellent 16 year update!
Since this thread already contains some great discussions regarding this amazing DM, I think it would be a great place ( @nysoto ) to post or repost representative images of the progression!!
I will post a few more in die stage progression, it might take a couple weeks. Some will be from the images deleted including the latest known die stage. This thread does have some great discussion.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Thanks. I have never handled a piece from this die with the triangular retained cud.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Looking forward to it!
This is a dream coin for sure... Id love to find a great original piece in F or VF.
It really doubles down, as it's one of the most striking overdates in numismatics and a fantastically cracked up LDS!
The CC coin shown above is owned by a BHNC member who is a friend of mine, and I have a more recent (albeit small) set of images he provided to me for my enjoyment. I think he'd be okay by me sharing them here.
These images were taken by our own @lkeigwin , as Sheridan Downey placed it with my friend in 2021 (as seen in the AMBPR).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
I'm not sure if this is the coin Slumlord posted?
As I understand it... although this is referred to by Stacks as the "b" state, the triangle section is not actually a cud ( bc obv is hammer die..) and therefore no new cracks have formed?
But... no stars present in the triangle does suggest a significant progression of some kind over the "a" state (IMHO)
Possibly from wear, but c'mon... this is definitely a later state than the 103a examples above!
103a+?
Great discussion!
Epic thread and it would be amazing if even a few of the most relevant posts could be quoted below with refreshed images...😀
@jayPem said:
I'm not sure if this is the coin Slumlord posted?
As I understand it... although this is referred to by Stacks as the "b" state, the triangle section is not actually a cud ( bc obv is hammer die..) and therefore no new cracks have formed?
But... no stars present in the triangle does suggest a significant progression of some kind over the "a" state (IMHO)
Possibly from wear, but c'mon... this is definitely a later state than the 103a examples above!
103a+?
Great discussion!
Epic thread and it would be amazing if even a few of the most relevant posts could be quoted below with refreshed images...😀
Yep, that's what I was wondering about... here's a coin that could use the decimal system if there ever was one!
In fact, if the draped busts are forthcoming, it's pretty likely this one has already been gone over.
Looking forward to seeing how it shakes down!
I did a lot of reading over the last hour and a half, and rethinking my position.
Edited my post from yesterday. Not sure I believe that the "b" state, as described by Overton, is, well, as described.
Rereading @Nysoto comments helps define part of what I have also read elsewhere (reposted from top of the page, my emphasis in BOLD);
I don't believe the "B" state exists, because it may not be possible with the laws of physics. John Reich Journal 1/96, Chris Pilliod "Die Settings on Draped Bust and Flowing Hair Half Dollars." Chris described how all the major early half cuds were on the reverse, and theorized that the hammer die was the reverse die. Thus, the large triangular cud on 103a could not "fall out" because of gravity! There are a few small obverse cuds that may be full, and a unique larger one on 06 105"b", the rest of the huge full cuds (like my sig pic) are from reverse dies. I believe in Pilliods theory, this also is true of IHC's. If any 103"b" full cuds exist, the opposite reverse would have little, or no definition. This is not the case with the Overton plate 103"b".
So then, in retrospect, the way Overton states it, "... the triangular flake has now broken entirely out of the die", does not make sense.
Did the broken "flake" portion of the die "sink", per se, as the rest of the die deteriorated and the crack from S8 across the portrait became more pronounced ... and does that account for some examples where the elevation may be slightly steeper around the "flake"? Possibly.
I really don't know, but it is an interesting study and Die State to consider. Subscribing in case others have more information to post.
.
Also, on a more somber note. It's sad to see some of the missing places at the table for members who are no longer with us, but who contributed to this thread, and mightily to this hobby.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
"Did the broken "flake" portion of the die "sink", per se, as the rest of the die deteriorated and the crack from S8 across the portrait became more pronounced ... and does that account for some examples where the elevation may be slightly steeper around the "flake"? Possibly."
It would be great to see more specimens with the pronounced crack across the portrait for sure!
Parts of it at least are present on all of the pics above.
How to describe the progression from the flake having significant details (stars,etc) remaining to none at all, is the question for me...
Striking issue? Sunken die?
No new cracks automatically means "a" state, regardless of other significant progressions?
Feels like having a "b" state "awarded" to any early half is much like getting a gold sticker... 😂
I think as the BHNC DS study progresses we will see some separation in the number of Die State's between the prime, the Newman coin, and the one you posted from Stack's, as certainly I expect more than Prime, 'a' and 'b' f we want to call them that.
Some email discussion took place this morning regarding this exact topic. I don't know how many levels it'll be broken down in the club study, but even now, Steve Tomkins @Quarternut carries four die "stages" for the obverse die in his latest, published work.
The Newman coin that my friend owns is a DS3 by Tomkins notes, and a 105a by all other accounts, and is the CC#1 for the DM, in my opinion. I have seen it in hand, and it is superlative.
The Stack's coin is a DS4, and would probably be considered a 105b in all cases, except for those that do not believe the die is a full cud, like Overton describes, and therefore discount the 'b' state. I no longer believe it is a full cud, but could accept the 'b' designator with some description of where we draw that line.
Since the retained cud area is noticeably raised (or the die is sinking back, depending on your point of view), which is a difference from the state of the Newman example and other 'a' coins ... even if it isn't an full cud, but a retained cud, the Stack's coin is still the latest state I have seen, and beyond the 'a' so to speak.
My 2c ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Comments
Many CU members will be reading this super thread, but will not have anything to add past what the pros have stated. These people will not be posting, but they are following this thread.
NYSOTO WHERE ARE YOU??
I can think of a few others but I don't think they post to CU. But Nysoto does and in my opinion he needs to weigh in.
I don't believe the "B" state exists, because it may not be possible with the laws of physics. John Reich Journal 1/96, Chris Pilliod "Die Settings on Draped Bust and Flowing Hair Half Dollars." Chris described how all the major early half cuds were on the reverse, and theorized that the hammer die was the reverse die. Thus, the large triangular cud on 103a could not "fall out" because of gravity! There are a few small obverse cuds that may be full, and a unique larger one on 06 105"b", the rest of the huge full cuds (like my sig pic) are from reverse dies. I believe in Pilliods theory, this also is true of IHC's. If any 103"b" full cuds exist, the opposite reverse would have little, or no defintion. This is not the case with the Overton plate 103"b".
Agreed. A chunk did not fall out of the die. It was fractured and floating in my opinion.
But that does not preclude the now larger question.
If the large auction houses are now calling the elevated triangular flake the "b" die state then it is only a matter of time that it will be accepted by the collecting public, whether specialist agree or not. And the just sold Heritage 1805/4 O-103b at $14,950 ANACS cleaned net 40 was a loud shot over the bow.
Also would someone please find Sheridan's description of the Shertz coin in his fixed price list 07/99. If I remember right he called it the (b) die state.
ps: I will correct preturbs photos. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I'm waiting to hear from the current custodian of that coin whether he can bring it to Baltimore next week. If he does, I'll add comparative pics to add another round of debate to this terrific thread.
Edit- Coin will be there, and we will have images to compare next Saturday!
Wow, it's hard to show a distinction between the two... they were certainly struck within a handful of strikes of each other... your piece is certainly more worn, the DeO piece being less worn but damaged. An encredible die state, both. Wonderful pics, such a classic rarity. Thanks for sharing.
Preturb
The preturb piece? Could be nysoto piece.
The Slumlord piece
The ex Dr. Shertz - BiddlesBank - De O piece
Which came last, the chicken or the egg? Slumlord, the chicken hatched from the egg so the chicken came last.
I have a couple of this great die marriage. The full b state as described by Overton does not exist. Tompkins describes it accurately in T-11:
Very nice.
Can anybody recreate the missing photos from this ancient thread?
(One reason why I like books. THe pictures do not die of old age.)
Those images are long gone unless the original posters put them back up or someone else saved the images prior to their deletion.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@CaptHenway
A photo census of all of the late state O-103a examples could be re-created with some work.
For those interested in this die marriage, an article with census was written by Bryce Brown, December 2007 John Reich Journal "The 1805/4 “Wide Date” Half Dollar — An Appreciation, Die Stage Analysis, and Register, Part 1" on the NNP.
My examples posted today - the lower grade is the Willasch/Robinson Brown coin, and the higher grade PCGS40 sold to "Westmoreland County Collection" then to Steve Nomura, then to me in a Sheridan Downey auction last summer.
edit - corrected provenance above
This big news since this thread was started was the mystery coin which surfaced in the Eric Newman auction Heritage 11/13/2013, it is the highest graded coin of the 103a die state, sold for $19,975
Excellent 16 year update!
Since this thread already contains some great discussions regarding this amazing DM, I think it would be a great place ( @nysoto ) to post or repost representative images of the progression!!
@jayPem
I will post a few more in die stage progression, it might take a couple weeks. Some will be from the images deleted including the latest known die stage. This thread does have some great discussion.
Thanks. I have never handled a piece from this die with the triangular retained cud.
Looking forward to it!
This is a dream coin for sure... Id love to find a great original piece in F or VF.
It really doubles down, as it's one of the most striking overdates in numismatics and a fantastically cracked up LDS!
@Nysoto @CaptHenway
The CC coin shown above is owned by a BHNC member who is a friend of mine, and I have a more recent (albeit small) set of images he provided to me for my enjoyment. I think he'd be okay by me sharing them here.
These images were taken by our own @lkeigwin , as Sheridan Downey placed it with my friend in 2021 (as seen in the AMBPR).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I'm not sure if this is the coin Slumlord posted?
As I understand it... although this is referred to by Stacks as the "b" state, the triangle section is not actually a cud ( bc obv is hammer die..) and therefore no new cracks have formed?
But... no stars present in the triangle does suggest a significant progression of some kind over the "a" state (IMHO)
Possibly from wear, but c'mon... this is definitely a later state than the 103a examples above!
103a+?
Great discussion!
Epic thread and it would be amazing if even a few of the most relevant posts could be quoted below with refreshed images...😀
Awesome example @jayPem
Wow, I think I might believe in the 'b' state
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Todd, do you know if the BHNC is planning to give pre turbs the new 10 point treatment?
Jordy, are you referring to a Die State decimal system for the Pre-Turbans? Like maybe 105.1 through 105.7 (or wherever) for this DM?
I have been told this is forthcoming. If something else, shoot me a PM.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Yep, that's what I was wondering about... here's a coin that could use the decimal system if there ever was one!
In fact, if the draped busts are forthcoming, it's pretty likely this one has already been gone over.
Looking forward to seeing how it shakes down!
Also, I guess I never really realized just how few of these are known?
Seems pretty tough for R5/6...🤯
I did a lot of reading over the last hour and a half, and rethinking my position.
Edited my post from yesterday. Not sure I believe that the "b" state, as described by Overton, is, well, as described.
Rereading @Nysoto comments helps define part of what I have also read elsewhere (reposted from top of the page, my emphasis in BOLD);
I don't believe the "B" state exists, because it may not be possible with the laws of physics. John Reich Journal 1/96, Chris Pilliod "Die Settings on Draped Bust and Flowing Hair Half Dollars." Chris described how all the major early half cuds were on the reverse, and theorized that the hammer die was the reverse die. Thus, the large triangular cud on 103a could not "fall out" because of gravity! There are a few small obverse cuds that may be full, and a unique larger one on 06 105"b", the rest of the huge full cuds (like my sig pic) are from reverse dies. I believe in Pilliods theory, this also is true of IHC's. If any 103"b" full cuds exist, the opposite reverse would have little, or no definition. This is not the case with the Overton plate 103"b".
So then, in retrospect, the way Overton states it, "... the triangular flake has now broken entirely out of the die", does not make sense.
Did the broken "flake" portion of the die "sink", per se, as the rest of the die deteriorated and the crack from S8 across the portrait became more pronounced ... and does that account for some examples where the elevation may be slightly steeper around the "flake"? Possibly.
I really don't know, but it is an interesting study and Die State to consider. Subscribing in case others have more information to post.
.
Also, on a more somber note. It's sad to see some of the missing places at the table for members who are no longer with us, but who contributed to this thread, and mightily to this hobby.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Well said Todd and a very interesting subject for sure. I see a “project” in our future 😝
"Did the broken "flake" portion of the die "sink", per se, as the rest of the die deteriorated and the crack from S8 across the portrait became more pronounced ... and does that account for some examples where the elevation may be slightly steeper around the "flake"? Possibly."
It would be great to see more specimens with the pronounced crack across the portrait for sure!
Parts of it at least are present on all of the pics above.
How to describe the progression from the flake having significant details (stars,etc) remaining to none at all, is the question for me...
Striking issue? Sunken die?
No new cracks automatically means "a" state, regardless of other significant progressions?
Feels like having a "b" state "awarded" to any early half is much like getting a gold sticker... 😂
@jayPem
I think as the BHNC DS study progresses we will see some separation in the number of Die State's between the prime, the Newman coin, and the one you posted from Stack's, as certainly I expect more than Prime, 'a' and 'b' f we want to call them that.
Some email discussion took place this morning regarding this exact topic. I don't know how many levels it'll be broken down in the club study, but even now, Steve Tomkins @Quarternut carries four die "stages" for the obverse die in his latest, published work.
The Newman coin that my friend owns is a DS3 by Tomkins notes, and a 105a by all other accounts, and is the CC#1 for the DM, in my opinion. I have seen it in hand, and it is superlative.
The Stack's coin is a DS4, and would probably be considered a 105b in all cases, except for those that do not believe the die is a full cud, like Overton describes, and therefore discount the 'b' state. I no longer believe it is a full cud, but could accept the 'b' designator with some description of where we draw that line.
Since the retained cud area is noticeably raised (or the die is sinking back, depending on your point of view), which is a difference from the state of the Newman example and other 'a' coins ... even if it isn't an full cud, but a retained cud, the Stack's coin is still the latest state I have seen, and beyond the 'a' so to speak.
My 2c ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Well said Todd.