New photos now posted on 4 different 1805/4 O-103a (b) bust half dollars - Huge elevated die flake c
BiddlesBank
Posts: 721 ✭
THERE IS NOW AN ACTIVE DISCUSSION ON WHETHER THE "B" DIE STATE EXISTS IN THE 1805/4 O-103 BUST HALF DOLLAR.
THIS SEEMS TO BE A MORE INTERESTING TOPIC THAN THIS THREAD FIRST STARTED WITH SO I CHANGED THE TITLE TO REFLECT THE CHANGE THIS THREAD HAS TAKEN.
THIS SEEMS TO BE A MORE INTERESTING TOPIC THAN THIS THREAD FIRST STARTED WITH SO I CHANGED THE TITLE TO REFLECT THE CHANGE THIS THREAD HAS TAKEN.
0
Comments
The NGC coin doesn't look natural to me. I don't care for the rainbow look in a Bust.
Bruce
<< <i>Give me crust over color >>
Dude, that is one of the best things ever said on this forum! You rock
<< <i>The NGC coin looks like a gumball on crack with those colors. >>
CLADIATOR
I had to laugh at the "gumball on crack comment." It instantly reminded me Circa 1955 when my cousin and I walked down the dirt road to a market that had a gumball machine. For a 1c you got a gumball but ever so often you got a jaw breaker sized gumball like a "gumball on crack." This special gumball got you a 5c candy bar from the clerk.
Now what happened at the market one day was quite remarkable. Both my cousin and I collected wheat backs and were always looking for the legendary 1909-S vdb. But instead my cousin got a bright new 1955/1955 double die 1c. We knew it was worth something then but either one of us would have gladly exchanged it at the time for a well worn 1909-S vdb.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Instead, it looks photographed at just the right angle with lots of light bounced off it to show the color.
as for grades, it's hard to tell from those pics if any "netting" was going on in the P and N grades but overall I like the p coin better.
question: what does this coin grade, and what do you think NTC graded it? (hint: I think they were 10 points high)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I seriously doubt that the bottom coin looks like that in hand (at least I hope it doesn't) Instead, it looks photographed at just the right angle with lots of light bounced off it to show the color. as for grades, it's hard to tell from those pics if any "netting" was going on in the P and N grades but overall I like the p coin better. question: what does this coin grade, and what do you think NTC graded it? (hint: I think they were 10 points high)
Looks the same as the PCGS VF35 but cleaned.
But if you say they graded it too high then they started at XF40 and net graded it less.
R.Zornes - without the cleaning. VF30.
But if you say they graded it too high then they started at XF40 and net graded it less.
R.Zornes - without the cleaning. VF30.
pretty good answer! yes, lightly cleaned but not scrubbed, they called it 35, I call it 25.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>The reverse on the ngc coin looks to have more details than the pcgs? Is it just better struck? >>
PBFLOYD
That is a pretty good observation. The die was bulged on the 1805/4 and the striking was not uniform.
Hence on the obverse near stars 2 & 3 it is weakly struck.
But as you noted the motto bar is sharper on the NGC VF25 than the PCGS VF35.
You can see why grading bust half dollars is a nightmare for Grading companies.
<< <i>I would prefer the top but would take either coin or both, I just would not pay much of a premium for color. Biddles, the bottom coin is similar to an 1805/4 NGC VF25 you bought and sold on ebay about 2002, same coin? >>
Geeez NYSOTO
How in the heck do you ever remember these things??
It's not the same coin but I did sell two or three of the 1805/4's about that time frame.
But the most controversial was the ex Dr. Shertz 1805/4 O-103b with the huge die cud. Once touted as the world's finest known XF I discovered a shallow depression had been tooled in the right obverse field and then patched with some kind of material I could not identify. Probably some initials were removed.
Anyway after the patch job someone artificially toned the tooled spot and did a pretty good job of it. I noticed the defect but bought it anyway for a pretty good price. I then removed some of the AT and noted the problem when I resold it. I did make money on the coin but not too much. But at least it became an honest O-103b and not the world's finest known.
I see the cleaned O-103b on Heritage got big money. $14,950 !!!
Your 1805/4 103a+ was (is) quite a coin. I have tracked it back as far as a March 5 1964 Kagin auction, and I believe it was owned by Overton some time after that. I see it as a slightly later die state than the one that just sold at Heritage. It's now in an Anacs holder, EF details, net F12. Not mine, I just like this DM a whole lot.
Preturb
I would have loved to have that 1805/4 103a from Heritage, but $14,950 is far above my limit. I have the Willasch/Brown 103a, F12-15 but nice for the grade.
<< <i>Biddle, Your 1805/4 103a+ was (is) quite a coin. I have tracked it back as far as a March 5 1964 Kagin auction, and I believe it was owned by Overton some time after that. I see it as a slightly later die state than the one that just sold at Heritage. It's now in an Anacs holder, EF details, net F12. Not mine, I just like this DM a whole lot. Preturb >>
Well now that the cat is out of the bag, I passed the Kagin insert along with the coin.
Net F12 was a little harsh in my opinion at the time they slabbed it, but it has been so long since I saw the coin or a photo of it I don't know how I would call it today.
Edited: Nysoto, why don't you post your O-103a on this thread. I would like to see it as I am sure others would also.
There's a pretty accurate photo of it in the 9/1981 Kagin #325 sale. I agree F12 is kinda harsh. It has great detail, and the repair is not horrendous.
<< <i>Net F12 was a little harsh in my opinion at the time they slabbed it, but it has been so long since I saw the coin or a photo of it I don't know how I would call it today. There's a pretty accurate photo of it in the 9/1981 Kagin #325 sale. I agree F12 is kinda harsh. It has great detail, and the repair is not horrendous. >>
Hi PRETURB
Here I thought you died and went to heaven.
I just bet you have that auction catalog tucked away somewhere. If so post a photo of the 1981 Kagin sale if you can?
PRETURB
As you noticed I reworked your photos on photo shop and resized them. Here they are. The O-103a and the O-103. Really nice coins and I am glad you posted them. This is the most dramatic overdate of the series and the "a" with the raising triangle is really cool.
Preturb. Hit qoute on this window and you will find the url's for your reworked photo. Then go back to your post and edit. Remove your photos and insert these. IT'S FREE. No charge to a great guy like you.
And easily the coolest overdate in all of numismatics.
Edited to add flake and full date shots.
SLUMLORD
You are right. It does not officially exist. But I believe it does for the following reason.
My source is Mike S. (name withheld for public purposes). I consider him the foremost authority on preturbs but I really do not know that for a fact.
Many years ago he helped catalog the Dr. Shertz collection. He considered the Dr. Shertz coin to Zornes to undisclosed buyer as the "b" die state.
So if it is good enough for Mike it is good enough for me. But I am an objective person and the subject is open for discussion as far as I am concerned.
I will concur with your opinion of M.S.'s preturb knowledge and plan to ask him about the Jerry Schertz coin on Friday. BTW, he owned my coin until about a year ago.
<< <i>I wish someone had a good image of it. Technically, to be a b, there must be no trace of stars 1 and 2, just a blank flake, yet the coin must be of high enough detail grade to clearly show all the detail of the flake. If it was EF detail then it meets one criterion. However, the Heritage coin from yesterday was not within a country mile of "b" status. Curious cataloging decision to label it as such. I will concur with your opinion of M.S.'s preturb knowledge and plan to ask him about the Jerry Schertz coin on Friday. BTW, he owned my coin until about a year ago. >>
You have a point there and perhaps the Shertz coin did have some of star 1 and 2 remaining. I have some old floppy disks with early coins I owned on them. I will check them out and post the Shertz coin if I find it.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wish someone had a good image of it. Technically, to be a b, there must be no trace of stars 1 and 2, just a blank flake, yet the coin must be of high enough detail grade to clearly show all the detail of the flake. If it was EF detail then it meets one criterion. However, the Heritage coin from yesterday was not within a country mile of "b" status. Curious cataloging decision to label it as such. I will concur with your opinion of M.S.'s preturb knowledge and plan to ask him about the Jerry Schertz coin on Friday. BTW, he owned my coin until about a year ago. >>
You have a point there and perhaps the Shertz coin did have some of star 1 and 2 remaining. I have some old floppy disks with early coins I owned on them. I will check them out and post the Shertz coin if I find it. >>
embrace 2007 and get some CDs or a USB-type stick drive -- your data will be happier for it!
<< <i>old floppy disks >>
Is there any other kind?
>>>>>>YEA FOR FLOPPY DISKS <<<<<<<
Oh what a fool I've been. Here is the Dr. Shertz - Zornes coin. And Heritage just got $14,950 for one like it.
Does this one make the "b" die state Slumlord?
no doubt! not just because the underdigit is completely legible, but also and more importantly, there are no 1804 half dollars.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Preturb, you know a little bit about this die marriage.
<< <i>I wish someone had a good image of it. Technically, to be a b, there must be no trace of stars 1 and 2, just a blank flake, yet the coin must be of high enough detail grade to clearly show all the detail of the flake. If it was EF detail then it meets one criterion. However, the Heritage coin from yesterday was not within a country mile of "b" status. Curious cataloging decision to label it as such. I will concur with your opinion of M.S.'s preturb knowledge and plan to ask him about the Jerry Schertz coin on Friday. BTW, he owned my coin until about a year ago. >>
SLUMLORD & PRETURB
Without crawling on my hands and knees through the attic this is my best recollection of the discussions I had with Mike S. as to why we considered it to be the "b" die state.
Overton's plate coin was worn down compared to the Shertz - Zornes coin. Note in the photos posted above, the Shertz - Zornes coin only shows light wear on the shoulder and breast of Ms Liberty.
Hopefully Mike concurs in this, but I think we agreed at the time that Overton's star 1 and star 2 had just worn away on his "b" model.
So the conclusion was how to redefine the "b" die state. For this I would need to find our correspondence.
However the photos posted above are sharp enough and clear enough to help any specialist who would really like to evaluate the differences in die states for this amazing variety.
As to the thread question, I prefer the PCGS coin. The NGC coin colors are too much for my taste.
HERITAGE 1805/4 O-103b - JUST REALIZED $14,950 - ANA MARCH 16, 2007 - LOT 741 -CLEANED ANACS NET 40
I have to say that some of you guys that own O-103 (a) or (b) just substantially increased in net worth.
I am among those that are skeptical of a full "B". Although I acknowledge, now that the definition has been put out there, it can never be conclusively DISproven. See comments in upcoming JRCS Journal.
Slummy, yours is certainly one of the latest LDS I have seen. I'd like to see it next to the currently south-of-the-border ex-Biddle piece discussed previously.
<< <i>I think we agreed at the time that Overton's star 1 and star 2 had just worn away on his "b" model. >>
And thus the flaw of his constructing a die state around a coin that was merely worn, instead of from a die that had failed in demonstrable, consecutive steps. This is the same flaw used in describing 1813 O.109 so-called "single leaf". For a die state to be legitimate, there has to be an example in high enough grade to determine beyond a shadow of doubt that it exists. The Stacks coin from last March or thereabouts had the same problem- it was too low grade to prove the point.
<< <i> redefine the "b" die state >>
Why bother? Why compound the error? IMHO, it should be treated as "currently unverified".
<< <i>this amazing variety. >>
No argument from the gallery on that point!
<< <i>Slummy, yours is certainly one of the latest LDS I have seen. I'd like to see it next to the currently south-of-the-border ex-Biddle piece discussed previously. >>
This will happen next week. Can you beg off for a day?
Why bother? Why compound the error? IMHO, it should be treated as "currently unverified".
Personally I find it very interesting and to me this is what coin collecting is all about.
It certainly appears to me that new die states in the capped bust arena are being nominated for recognition at a furious rate. It is the last frontier for bust half collecting unless you want to go for condition census coins. Then it is all about big bucks.
On the 1805/4 O-103 (a) (b) question I would propose that when the triangle flake subtantially elevates above the normal plane of the surface it is the (b) die state. The (a) die state is the cracked outline of the triangle but no elevation.
Apparently this is what the auction catalogers are now calling it and if my memory serves me correct so does S. Downey. I sold my Downey 07/09 fixed price list but someone check and see what Downey called the Shertz coin in the fixed price list description.
<< <i>This thing has progressed way out of my league >>
How aboutsome questions, then? The same principles apply to half dimes. If you can be specific, it really is easy.
<< <i>when the triangle flake subtantially elevates above the normal plane of the surface it is the (b) die state. >>
That's a good working description, but to my way of thinking, it doesn't describe a new die state as much as a continuation of the "a" state. This can lead to problems later as catalogers guess 'is this one an elevated chip or are my eyes just fatigued after cataloging 70 1880-S dollars?' Also, damage might obscure the issue, as well as low grade. If it is a new die state, and not just a continuation of the previous, then something different has to have happened, i.e., a new crack has formed or a cud has progressed from retained to full. 1807 O.111 is an example of mere progression. People are always asking if this coin or that is 'a' or 'b' and whether 'a' is also a BG. If a new die state is going to gain widespread acceptance, it should unambiguous, or as much so as is possible, and both 05 103a/b and 07 111a/b don't pass the smell test. A non-expert in the series should be able to readily distinguish between a/b for it to pass.
Well apparently the auction houses are now making the distinction in respect to the 1805/4 O-103b.
Whether a person agrees or not, when the large auction houses start making the distinction then the lambs are sure to follow.
It would be interesting to hear their opinion on this .If they continue to call it so-and so die state,
does that make it official?Way over my head,just wondering.
Many CU members will be reading this super thread, but will not have anything to add past what the pros have stated. These people will not be posting, but they are following this thread.
With all the interest shown in this thread about Draped Bust Half Dollars, when will someone step up and start a CU series on them? I want to show my TWO specimens.
Interesting topic. The debate so far has been excellent.
Unfortunately my knowlege in this area, at this point, can offer only Kudos. So Kudo's to a great thread. jws
<< <i>With all the interest shown in this thread about Draped Bust Half Dollars, when will someone step up and start a CU series on them? >>
Point taken. Smell the smoke rising from my keyboard?