nice card. but i certainly would not have entitled the thread the way you did. (shiny stuff) inherently has a negative connotation, so naturally people who collect modern would certainly be rubbed the wrong way. people should collect what they like without others degrading them. no one's collecting interests are better than anyone else's. there is good in all of it. just different tastes. nonetheless that is a nice card and good luck with it.
How many buying names does Great Lakes have, and how did a few of you know the alt names? Are they the same person or are you just looking for similar cards in similar grade?
There are those who play the "crack-and-resubmit" game.
And, there are those who play the "crack-and-don't-resubmit" game.
>>
Exactly right - designed to suck-in collectors who intend to submit the card to PSA thinking they are gonna make a quick profit. A very slick seller here. Not technically a scam, but certainly borderline.
- >>
Exactly. But that all brings the issue back to one critical point, and that is this-- don't buy raw cards and expect them to be PSA 8 worthy unless you either a) have extensive past dealings with the seller, or b) have an enormous scan to work with. If you follow the 'PSA 6' rule, which basically states that there are no raw vintage star cards being sold on ebay by experienced sellers that would grade higher than a 6-- you will do just fine.
We can rail on about the seller-- he has no scruples, he's a borderline sleazebag, blah blah blah--but in the end complaining about shifty Ebay sellers is like complaining about the movement of glaciers. There's NOTHING you'll ever be able to do to stop it, so don't fret over it. It is worth noting, I might add, that the reason why these sellers continue to do a brisk trade is because there are enough people out there 'looking to turn a quick profit'-- in other words, enough people who have kidded themselves into believing that an experienced card dealer is going to leave $100's of dollars of equity on the table because they just can't be troubled with $12 in grading fees. The only way-- and I do mean the ONLY way-- that these kinds of selling practices will ever cease is if experienced hobbyists quit acting dumb and greedy, and trying to make $150 bucks with the click of a mouse. If that doesn't stop, then this kind of selling will never stop. Ever. >>
Boopotts, GREAT POST..........
When buying raw vintage, Always ask yourself, "if that card is such a cherry, why hasnt it been graded yet?"
..if you cant come up with a 100% legitmate answer (you saw someone pull it from a pack), then buy at your own risk!!!Danger!!! Danger!! That Card Is Not What It Seems!!!!....
The guy has been making a lot of $$ doing this, if you take the time to compare recent buys with recent sells. He also just bought 2 decent looking 53T mantles. Looks like he cleared almost $1000 profit on a psa6 59 mantle.
It seems to be a fantastic business model (from purely a $ standpoint). I suspect that is why he chooses his words so carefully (and even lists flaws). Also why I doubt he does much to his photos (and why he doesn't use scans). He has a great thing going. If a card could be bumped he can try it, but if not sell it as raw and let people's greed and/or high hopes drive the bidding up.
He only sells nice cards; just not as nice as buyers tend to project them as. I can't believe how high people will go on raw without a scan. Any card can look great photographed from a foot away.
The 1970 Ryan in another thread would look NM/MT in a well lit photo, but in the clear scan shown it looks 6-ish to me. Huge difference in price, no difference in the card.
Great Lakes is "selling the sizzle" rather than the "steak" and most people seem to bid like it is filet mignon.
Am sure most people think - "this seller is an idiot" - selling seemingly NM/MT cards raw. The buyers think they know who the "sucker at the table" is (to use the old poker adage), but the proof is in the sell prices versus the buys.
There are those who play the "crack-and-resubmit" game.
And, there are those who play the "crack-and-don't-resubmit" game.
>>
Exactly right - designed to suck-in collectors who intend to submit the card to PSA thinking they are gonna make a quick profit. A very slick seller here. Not technically a scam, but certainly borderline.
- >>
Exactly. But that all brings the issue back to one critical point, and that is this-- don't buy raw cards and expect them to be PSA 8 worthy unless you either a) have extensive past dealings with the seller, or b) have an enormous scan to work with. If you follow the 'PSA 6' rule, which basically states that there are no raw vintage star cards being sold on ebay by experienced sellers that would grade higher than a 6-- you will do just fine.
We can rail on about the seller-- he has no scruples, he's a borderline sleazebag, blah blah blah--but in the end complaining about shifty Ebay sellers is like complaining about the movement of glaciers. There's NOTHING you'll ever be able to do to stop it, so don't fret over it. It is worth noting, I might add, that the reason why these sellers continue to do a brisk trade is because there are enough people out there 'looking to turn a quick profit'-- in other words, enough people who have kidded themselves into believing that an experienced card dealer is going to leave $100's of dollars of equity on the table because they just can't be troubled with $12 in grading fees. The only way-- and I do mean the ONLY way-- that these kinds of selling practices will ever cease is if experienced hobbyists quit acting dumb and greedy, and trying to make $150 bucks with the click of a mouse. If that doesn't stop, then this kind of selling will never stop. Ever. >>
I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, mostly because I'm not eloquent enough
But seriously, this is a perfect example of why I only purchase high $ cards slabbed on eBay. In my opinion, it's not worth the gamble but again, I'm in this for collecting purposes.
Technically, the Seller does not need to disclose he cracked but morally, he should.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
First off, I am honored in your presence as legendary forum members. Obviously I am a vintage dude. I do agree with both of you, collect what you like. I guess my perspective is I can't see someone spending big bucks on modern stuff, and the other side of the coin is that modern folks wonder how big bucks go down for vintage material. I think I got called out here, and appreciate the feedback. Bottom line, great hobby and I hope everyone can share as much enjoyment as possible with other people with their collections. I appreciate most folks here, as I know we share a true passion. Genre aside, the passion is the same. I could rant on and on as to way I think modern stuff is not desirable, but it would only apply to my opinion in the end. I have a new appreciation for it actually; in that I know that there alot of people here that share my passion in this hobby with simply just a different focus. Again thanks for the replies.
Best Regards, Damian >>
It never ceases to amaze me how much TIME and EMOTION you "sophisticated vintage collectors" spend on bashing those that choose to collect modern (or, God forbid -- to make a profit on it). In any case, perhaps you should spend less time obsessing over an entire segment of the hobby, waste less time starting condescending threads, and do your own homework so you don't get taken for over $200.
The hammer price on the '59 Mantle is incredible! Why would anyone pay over $1300 for it when you can get a 7 for around $750???
Buying raw on ebay wouldn't be so bad if people bid appropriately. The problem is that anytime something halfway decent is listed, people line up to throw away their money. It's the same thing with unopened material. Not that I think a seller like this would let a card go for a song...most sellers have someone they can call if they need some bids...but there still has to be someone willing to place that winning bid for it to work.
Sellers feedback reflects some displeasure on the part of buyers, but mostly neutrals and only a few negs. Guess that just shows that they're doing whatever in the right manner to keep out of trouble. It sucks.
I left them a positive after buying the 59 Aaron described here. It came back a PSA 5 after spending $106 including shipping. Sold it for $77 since I need a 7 for the 59 set. Guess $30 isn't too bad but call me a moron anyway. -
"This, 100% original, 1959 Topps baseball Hank Aaron #380 card is AWESOME with NEAR-PERFECT centering. This card also displays: perfectly clean borders, stunning crisp photographic imagery, suberb bright vivid colors and no creases. The corners are nice with less than average aging. The back of this beautiful card is SPOTLESS and has crisp edges. This Milwaukee Braves legend's card has beautiful eye appeal making it a wonderful choice for grading and or collecting. We guarantee this card is ORIGINAL and UNTRIMMED or your money back. BIDDING STARTS AT ONLY **ONE PENNY** Please bid with confidence as your satisfaction is always guaranteed."
<< <i>I have a feeling card_collectors_corner is the same group of sellers. They always have fantastic raw, same type of scans >>
I didn't analyze this guy specifically, but there is no doubt in my mind that guys like this use very "sophisticated" shill bidding procedures. Of course at the least they have a shill snipe in for the minimum they want the card to sell at. And now with the bidder 1, bidder 2, crap...it's gotten even easier for them to pull this off. This guy stating these cards are starting at a penny, in my opinion really is technically a fraudulent remark when in my view for sure they've got shill snipes in place.
I believe that it is VERY rarely "smart" to do so.
I would actually say "never safe," but I suppose that is not true.
Any chance of a slight savings is FAR outweighed by...
* Chance of fake/altered card * Chance that seller knows MUCH more about card than buyer * Expense and hassle of submitting card to PSA
I think even folks who prefer raw-cards in their collections should consider buying PSA-slabbed cards and cracking them out. >>
I dunno. As a collector on a budget who focuses mostly on <$100 cards, paying $30 (raw + grading) beats paying $100 (already graded). You gotta do your homework on the sellers though, ask for nice big scans, etc.
<<<4 Negs vs. 4200+ positives is a heckuva ratio for a seller of raw cards. >>>>>
typical feedback rating for anyone on ebay which we all know is essentially meaningless. most of the sellers which have been discussed on these boards as sellers of trimmed or altered cards, all have 100% fb ratings.
<<<< didn't analyze this guy specifically, but there is no doubt in my mind that guys like this use very "sophisticated" shill bidding procedures. >>>>
Steve, I believe that you are correct. There is no doubt in my mind that many sellers employ these tactics. When you think about it, how tough would it be? Even if you "won" your own card, it can be re-sold again and again with no fear of being tracked unless someone is willing to spend a lot of time following the history of a specific card. You could have friends, relatives, multiple ebay accounts and handles, any number of ways to do this. This is obviously one of the downsides of an electronic marketplace where you know sellers only by their ebay ID. Even if you could see the ebay IDs, if the card values are high enough, I am sure the level of sophistication could scale to meet the challenge. or threat of being detected.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
"It never ceases to amaze me how much TIME and EMOTION you "sophisticated vintage collectors" spend on bashing those that choose to collect modern (or, God forbid -- to make a profit on it). In any case, perhaps you should spend less time obsessing over an entire segment of the hobby, waste less time starting condescending threads, and do your own homework so you don't get taken for over $200.
Irony is a beautiful thing".
amazingly enough, i actually agree with jmb here. i never thought that would happen.
card received a PSA 3 serial # 40070736 Buyer dsheely( 502) Sep-11-02 20:04 1843137513 Reply by great_lakes_auction_house: ???? I don't work for a professional grading company. Sounds like I did good??? Sep-11-02 20:44
card received a PSA 6 (ST) serial # 40070730 Buyer dsheely( 502) Sep-11-02 20:04 1843141954 Reply by great_lakes_auction_house: It sounds like I described the cards very accurately. What is the neutral for?? Sep-11-02 20:42
card received a PSA 4 serial # 40070747 Buyer dsheely( 502) Sep-11-02 20:04 1845049712 Reply by great_lakes_auction_house: I am confused, what is your issue? Wish you would of specified more. Sep-11-02 20:40
card received a PSA 5 serial # 40070744 Buyer dsheely( 502) Sep-11-02 20:04 1843143989 Reply by great_lakes_auction_house: I don't know if I missed something, but what seems to be the problem? Sep-11-02 20:38
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I certainly wouldn't say it's never worth buying raw vintage stars on ebay. By the '60s, many HOFers in PSA 7 sell for less than the grading fee above what a raw NM example of the same card does - and by the late '60s, some of the HOFers don't even bring a premium in PSA 8. If you're limiting things to HOFer rookies or Mays/Mantle/Clemente/Aaron/Koufax/Williams, then you have to be much more careful, but when you're talking about buying Cepeda/Ashburn/Sutton/Niekro/Aparicio/Wilhelm, the graded differential makes it often not worthwhile for submission of real NM cards - unless you can submit at 4SC-type prices.
Oh, and in defense of modern cards, my last $56 spent at a card show dealer brought me Frank Howard and Steve Francis autographed cards, a Chris Bosh #/499 rookie, a dual jersey card with Guy LaFleur as one of the swatches, a Michael Jordan Upper Deck promo card (that I used to replace one I sold for $5), a Devean George SP Authentic rookie, 3 cards #/25, a Donruss Elite Asiprations card #/66, a Michael Redd gold refractor #/99, 5 other autographed cards, and 32 GU cards, mostly of fairly well-known players, with one surefire future HOFer (Rod Woodson) in the mix. Buying modern doesn't only mean paying $500 for one card of a guy who may never make the majors.
<< I could rant on and on as to way I think modern stuff is not desirable >>
Damian
Your desire for only vintage is preference....
But, ya kinda threw down the gauntlet.
I've got no where to go - so I would be interested in why modern is "not" desirable.
As I said - IMO - it's apples and oranges.
"Both" are desirable to me.
On whether or not you got a good buy? I can't tell from the scan and await your personal findings. I bought a raw T3 for 500$ - it came back a 6! On a good day that card could bring 2-3K or more?
So, I'm all ears on the desirability issue. mike
Mike,
I was wrong to say modern is not desirable. Obviously it is as evident of its popularity on the forum. I am in agreement that it is apples and oranges. I don't just collect vintage, I just can't get into recent card collecting say early 90's on. Just too many sets, inserts, game used, serial #'d, etc. that I feel it skews the perceived scarcity. I do respect those who collect it though as it still sports cards and understand the passion behind it. I really like coming to this forum because it is diverse and there still is alot of commarodarie. There are many vintage collectors that wouln't touch this place with a ten foot pole and I don't understand that. They are missing out. I should have known better than to title this thread what I did, I was asking for it. I hope I didn't offend anyone too much and that wasn't my intention. I guess my intention was that I thought I got great looking card and wanted to show it off. Thanks for info on the card being in a 6 holder, but it doesn't worry me too much. I am keeping my fingers crossed on what it will grade. At the very least I know I have a card that is unaltered. As for the selling tactics of the seller, I am not sure how I feel. If he is mindlessly busting 6 slabs and selling raw, I don't think it is completely ethical and I don't think he would end up on the plus side on his way to the bank. If he has an eye or a knack for spotting truly undergraded cards then I say good for him.
"If he has an eye or a knack for spotting truly undergraded cards then I say good for him."
////////////////////////////////////////
His primary "knack" is for finding cards that are properly graded, cracking them out, and convincing folks that such cards will grade higher than he already knows they have graded in the past.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I wondered if great_lakes had a connection to card_collectors_corner. Both from Michigan, both selling vintage raw, both have the same picture layout and both have the long description of a card. Hmm
Anyone else notice the scan of the back of the Ruth. That top edge looks awful wavey. Does it look like a bad trim job. links to both auctions are on page 1 of this thread.
W.C.Fields "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
I was reading his negs/neutrals and came across this one.
<< <i>Feed back is nutral at this time until I get the card and then I will leave more >>
What a dumba$$. Some people just don't get it.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
<< <i>This extraordinary HOFer's card from this beautifully designed set also displays: many pack-fresh attributes, awesome wet-looking sheen(wow), snow-white clean borders, flawless factory finish, super sharp imagery and no creases. The corners are sharp with tip touches. The back of this "VIRTUALLY FLAWLESS" card is SPOTLESS and has crisp edges. This New York/San Francisco Giants legend's card would make a magnificent addition for any collection. We guarantee this card is AUTHENTIC and UNTRIMMED or your money back. >>
My dad was a pitchman – sold snake oil in the era of street vendors in NYC.
Like Barnum, he had his own personal aphorisms…
“When ya sellin’ somethin’ – people buy stories…”
The description is not the most eloquent I’ve read but profoundly effective. The omission of a grade appraisal has a purpose…
The above [litany] invokes incantations of PSA 8s in the minds of unsuspecting buyers. So mesmerized by the description – they’re only awoken from their trance by the “snap” of a PSA 6 holder neatly nestled within a registered package.
this guy seems to have an absolutely genious selling model! buy crisp looking 6s, people pay 8 money for them thinking they might get lucky! The seller isn't doing anything wrong IMO, doesn't state what it should grade, says the card has tip touches just like it does. This seems like a game to jump into if one has some capital to play around with. JOhn
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I alerted the seller to this thread and asked if he/she wanted to come on here and defend his/herself, and this was their email response:
"Hello Lee, Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. I have read several messages on the board. As many know, there are, at times, inconsistancies among grading companies and I have even personally seen this inconsistancy even within the same company. This is why we do not choose to grade our cards...and not to mention the cost and time factor as well. My personal belief is that, in some cases, grading companies are off the mark(over grade or under grade) with some grades assigned to cards...which is reasonable since grading is very subjective. This is not only my personal view....I have seen it countless times where people could not believe that a card graded what it did and thought it should have graded higher. In some of these cases, where people state this...some are bias...and some are very honest...one has to decide for themselves with how the card looks. As far as the inclination that we have "shill" bidders and we bleach our cards, this is completely false and untrue. All of our cards that are sold in the form of singles (not lots) are all scanned with a HP PSC 1210V All-In-One, printer/scanner/copier(fairly inexpensive unit purchased from Walmart). We do not inhance any settings on this scanner...we simply scan and crop to size. Again Lee, I sincerely appreciate your email.
He sells "good looking" cards; no need to major-enhance with the scanner, and no need to shill.
A fun thing that his practices point out is that, in general, a PSA 6 is a very nice looking card. The kind of card that many of us have sent in expecting an 8+.
It might be smart to start buying high-end 6s of 1955 - 1959 stars. The more widespread GL's practices become, the more such cards will be in demand.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
He sells "good looking" cards; no need to major-enhance with the scanner, and no need to shill.
A fun thing that his practices point out is that, in general, a PSA 6 is a very nice looking card. The kind of card that many of us have sent in expecting an 8+.
It might be smart to start buying high-end 6s of 1955 - 1959 stars. The more widespread GL's practices become, the more such cards will be in demand. >>
Good point Storm.
BTW, ya can get some really sharp PSA 7s at a good price also.
But, I've said this many times - there's nothing like a really good 6 for the price.
But, I'm willing to bet that most can get more money raw for a PSA 6 - calling it a conservative Nm - and also hint that it's a conservative grade and who knows? Ya might even get an 8 out of it.
<< <i>"It never ceases to amaze me how much TIME and EMOTION you "sophisticated vintage collectors" spend on bashing those that choose to collect modern (or, God forbid -- to make a profit on it). In any case, perhaps you should spend less time obsessing over an entire segment of the hobby, waste less time starting condescending threads, and do your own homework so you don't get taken for over $200.
Irony is a beautiful thing".
amazingly enough, i actually agree with jmb here. i never thought that would happen. >>
As much as I post on here, I'm bound to say something right eventually!
As many know, there are, at times, inconsistancies among grading companies and I have even personally seen this inconsistancy even within the same company. This is why we do not choose to grade our cards.
Riiight. That's it. The fact that most of them were previously purchased as 4's, 5's, or 6's has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Maybe I was wrong about the Ruth being bleached or having its scan altered, but that must have been one filthy cardsaver! Wouldn't you think the original seller might have noticed that on a $400 card?
<< <i>I alerted the seller to this thread and asked if he/she wanted to come on here and defend his/herself, and this was their email response:
"Hello Lee, Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. I have read several messages on the board. As many know, there are, at times, inconsistancies among grading companies and I have even personally seen this inconsistancy even within the same company. This is why we do not choose to grade our cards...and not to mention the cost and time factor as well. My personal belief is that, in some cases, grading companies are off the mark(over grade or under grade) with some grades assigned to cards...which is reasonable since grading is very subjective. This is not only my personal view....I have seen it countless times where people could not believe that a card graded what it did and thought it should have graded higher. In some of these cases, where people state this...some are bias...and some are very honest...one has to decide for themselves with how the card looks. As far as the inclination that we have "shill" bidders and we bleach our cards, this is completely false and untrue. All of our cards that are sold in the form of singles (not lots) are all scanned with a HP PSC 1210V All-In-One, printer/scanner/copier(fairly inexpensive unit purchased from Walmart). We do not inhance any settings on this scanner...we simply scan and crop to size. Again Lee, I sincerely appreciate your email.
GLAH" >>
I've heard this "sales pitch" before regarding graded cards but I can't remember where. I'll have to think about it...maybe it'll come to me.
Oh yea now I remember...I heard this same stinkin' "sales pitch" about graded cards from almost every weasel card shop owner I've ever been to that didn't sell graded cards.
I don't recall seeing any specific examples of shill bidding anywhere in this thread, just conjecture. I am with Storm, I also doubt bleaching or anything else. They have a good thing going. Why risk screwing it up? The idea is brilliant in its simplicity.
Feedback is 99.9%. They point out negatives of each card in their descriptions. These boards are literally full of threads about undergraded, overgraded, bumps, and how to maximize value, and most importantly.....the repeated mantra of "buy the card, not the holder". Here we have a seller selling nice, clean, unaltered stuff. The seller does not overgrade. He hypes the good and mentions the bad (which is more than most would do). He has many, many repeat buyers. He replies to a query by a board member with a decent (not great) answer. Yes, he hypes the good points of his cards - and does so more than most - but buyers eat it up. It is a legitimate part of a succesful sales strategy.
Can't help but think that a lot of this negativity smacks of jealousy. I don't want to come off as an apologist for Great Lakes - just calling them as I see them.
<< <i>I don't recall seeing any specific examples of shill bidding anywhere in this thread, just conjecture. I am with Storm, I also doubt bleaching or anything else. They have a good thing going. Why risk screwing it up? The idea is brilliant in its simplicity.
Feedback is 99.9%. They point out negatives of each card in their descriptions. These boards are literally full of threads about undergraded, overgraded, bumps, and how to maximize value, and most importantly.....the repeated mantra of "buy the card, not the holder". Here we have a seller selling nice, clean, unaltered stuff. The seller does not overgrade. He hypes the good and mentions the bad (which is more than most would do). He has many, many repeat buyers. He replies to a query by a board member with a decent (not great) answer. Yes, he hypes the good points of his cards - and does so more than most - but buyers eat it up. It is a legitimate part of a succesful sales strategy.
Can't help but think that a lot of this negativity smacks of jealousy. I don't want to come off as an apologist for Great Lakes - just calling them as I see them. >>
Mike
I can't argue with your premise.
Let me just say this - the part I spoke about is a technique from what I can see.
He's purposely not giving a grade for the card and letting people draw their own conclusion.
But, let's not be fooled - "he" knows what he is doing and if he's buying nice PSA 6s to push as raw in hopes of getting people to bite? It's not illegal. Ethical? Only if ya know in your heart the card IS a 6 and don't try to list it as an Exmt card.
"Can't help but think that a lot of this negativity smacks of jealousy. I don't want to come off as an apologist for Great Lakes - just calling them as I see them. "
I am not really at all negative about what this seller - and many others - are doing. I could very easily do the same thing on a big scale, but I would not.
The practice is not "hobby-expanding." When folks figure out what happened, they might be somewhat likely to sour on card buying. That is not good for any other seller.
I don't know if anybody is jealous, or not. I think most just don't like the idea that their notion of "full disclosure" is not being met. I do not see any disclosure obligation on the part of the seller that he is not meeting.
I have been peddling collectibles for a long time. I have yet to have a buyer say I shafted them. Lots of sellers, I am sure, have had bad feelings when they learned that I had paid them MUCH less than I might have for their items; that is just the nature of buying sub-wholesale and selling at high-retail.
The subject seller is not the Lone Ranger. There are tons of sellers in ALL tpg-collectible categories doing exactly the same thing. This guy's practices just happened to have come to light here.
High-end AU coins are particularly vulnerable to being cracked out and "over-described" with beautiful scans. Folks continue to think they are going to get a bargain by ripping a dealer. rotflmao
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
This is a fantastic thread - and I must give kudos to boopotts for his post a few pages back that nailed this perfectly.
This seller is simply playing on the average card buyers "greed", and desire for an easy buck. His business model is sleaze personified, but he can dance around the issues all day long. Shilling? Nope. Enhance scans? Nope, don't need to. Cards trimmed? Nope, in fact, they were all authenticated by the best graders in the business before they were cracked out of their holders. If buyers would just employ more common sense, and less greed, this seller could never get away with this. But, they unfortunately will - because there will always be another less knowledgeable buyer around the corner.
Exactly right. He is letting people fill in the blank on what grade each card is. Given the size of the photos, and no option for supersize, I am amazed at how much people will bid. Irrational exuberance by buyers - who are responsible for their own actions - is the best thing an Auction seller can hope for.
Sure he could temper them, by giving out the card's former PSA grade... but that is not the sellers job. Not in cards, cars, real estate, etc. Anybody could blow up the picture, as a board member here did. Anybody could do the homework that I did in the other thread on the Williams card, or that others here did on the Mays card. Anybody could email the seller and press for a grade estimate. It is called due diligence and everyone should do it (though I don't always practice what I preach), and the onus is on the buyer. You hear the advice on these threads time and time again...if it should be graded, it would be graded. Do your homework. Know who the best sources are. Ask questions. Get better scans. Read feedback. Etc, etc.
This guy doesn't sell counterfeits. Doesn't sell trimmed. Doesn't sell recolored. Just weird that he is being villified here. That's all.
".......because there will always be another less knowledgeable buyer around the corner."
///////////////////////////////////////
I continue to believe that there are not an infinite number of suckers out there in the card-collecting game.
I think it is possible to virtually kill the business if it becomes too dangerous to participate in. New folks will hear about the risks, and just stay out. If that happens too much, we've got a problem.
A review of the sellers FB shows that he does alot of newbies. BUT, he aslo does alot of experienced folks who think they know more about cards than the seller does.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Well-- the Red Sox fans amongst us certainly have the right approach on all of this IMO. I don't know a single person who falls into this apparent throng of enthusiastic, deep pocketed, but essentially uninformed hobbyists whose interests are so passionately defended by certain memebers on these boards, but as I said in the latest Waverly thread I'm personally tired of trying to protect this spectrum of the hobby from itself (which may or may not even exist). If you want a PSA 8 quality card, then buy a PSA 8. You want to spin the variance wheel and hope to suck out $300 worth of equity on a card being sold by a dealer then hey-- it's a free country. But if you want to buy the ticket, be prepared to take the ride.
In any event, it is certainly somewhat more difficult.
But, I don't think the buyers are being dishonest; they are just overly optimistic, and think they can get a bargain from someone who spends every waking hour figuring out how to sell cards for the highest possible prices.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Comments
Ben
Some chipping on the bottom right edge? Does the lower left corner look touched? I would guess a small wrinkle or ding somewhere.
57/43 T to B, 63/37 L to R
Best of luck with the grade. Maybe a 7? Hopefully yes.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"...just trying to shed some light on the seller's business strategy.'
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
VERY smart/sharp seller.
There are those who play the "crack-and-resubmit" game.
And, there are those who play the "crack-and-don't-resubmit"
game.
Exactly right - designed to suck-in collectors who intend to submit the card to PSA thinking they are gonna make a quick profit. A very slick seller here. Not technically a scam, but certainly borderline.
- >>
Exactly. But that all brings the issue back to one critical point, and that is this-- don't buy raw cards and expect them to be PSA 8 worthy unless you either a) have extensive past dealings with the seller, or b) have an enormous scan to work with. If you follow the 'PSA 6' rule, which basically states that there are no raw vintage star cards being sold on ebay by experienced sellers that would grade higher than a 6-- you will do just fine.
We can rail on about the seller-- he has no scruples, he's a borderline sleazebag, blah blah blah--but in the end complaining about shifty Ebay sellers is like complaining about the movement of glaciers. There's NOTHING you'll ever be able to do to stop it, so don't fret over it. It is worth noting, I might add, that the reason why these sellers continue to do a brisk trade is because there are enough people out there 'looking to turn a quick profit'-- in other words, enough people who have kidded themselves into believing that an experienced card dealer is going to leave $100's of dollars of equity on the table because they just can't be troubled with $12 in grading fees. The only way-- and I do mean the ONLY way-- that these kinds of selling practices will ever cease is if experienced hobbyists quit acting dumb and greedy, and trying to make $150 bucks with the click of a mouse. If that doesn't stop, then this kind of selling will never stop. Ever. >>
Boopotts, GREAT POST..........
When buying raw vintage, Always ask yourself, "if that card is such a cherry, why hasnt it been graded yet?"
..if you cant come up with a 100% legitmate answer (you saw someone pull it from a pack), then buy at your own risk!!!Danger!!! Danger!! That Card Is Not What It Seems!!!!....
grading
Bid history
Sold history
He only sells nice cards; just not as nice as buyers tend to project them as. I can't believe how high people will go on raw without a scan. Any card can look great photographed from a foot away.
The 1970 Ryan in another thread would look NM/MT in a well lit photo, but in the clear scan shown it looks 6-ish to me. Huge difference in price, no difference in the card.
Great Lakes is "selling the sizzle" rather than the "steak" and most people seem to bid like it is filet mignon.
Am sure most people think - "this seller is an idiot" - selling seemingly NM/MT cards raw. The buyers think they know who the "sucker at the table" is (to use the old poker adage), but the proof is in the sell prices versus the buys.
Bosox1976
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"...just trying to shed some light on the seller's business strategy.'
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
VERY smart/sharp seller.
There are those who play the "crack-and-resubmit" game.
And, there are those who play the "crack-and-don't-resubmit"
game.
Exactly right - designed to suck-in collectors who intend to submit the card to PSA thinking they are gonna make a quick profit. A very slick seller here. Not technically a scam, but certainly borderline.
- >>
Exactly. But that all brings the issue back to one critical point, and that is this-- don't buy raw cards and expect them to be PSA 8 worthy unless you either a) have extensive past dealings with the seller, or b) have an enormous scan to work with. If you follow the 'PSA 6' rule, which basically states that there are no raw vintage star cards being sold on ebay by experienced sellers that would grade higher than a 6-- you will do just fine.
We can rail on about the seller-- he has no scruples, he's a borderline sleazebag, blah blah blah--but in the end complaining about shifty Ebay sellers is like complaining about the movement of glaciers. There's NOTHING you'll ever be able to do to stop it, so don't fret over it. It is worth noting, I might add, that the reason why these sellers continue to do a brisk trade is because there are enough people out there 'looking to turn a quick profit'-- in other words, enough people who have kidded themselves into believing that an experienced card dealer is going to leave $100's of dollars of equity on the table because they just can't be troubled with $12 in grading fees. The only way-- and I do mean the ONLY way-- that these kinds of selling practices will ever cease is if experienced hobbyists quit acting dumb and greedy, and trying to make $150 bucks with the click of a mouse. If that doesn't stop, then this kind of selling will never stop. Ever. >>
I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, mostly because I'm not eloquent enough
But seriously, this is a perfect example of why I only purchase high $ cards slabbed on eBay. In my opinion, it's not worth the gamble but again, I'm in this for collecting purposes.
Technically, the Seller does not need to disclose he cracked but morally, he should.
<< <i>LMM and Stone,
First off, I am honored in your presence as legendary forum members. Obviously I am a vintage dude. I do agree with both of you, collect what you like. I guess my perspective is I can't see someone spending big bucks on modern stuff, and the other side of the coin is that modern folks wonder how big bucks go down for vintage material. I think I got called out here, and appreciate the feedback. Bottom line, great hobby and I hope everyone can share as much enjoyment as possible with other people with their collections. I appreciate most folks here, as I know we share a true passion. Genre aside, the passion is the same. I could rant on and on as to way I think modern stuff is not desirable, but it would only apply to my opinion in the end. I have a new appreciation for it actually; in that I know that there alot of people here that share my passion in this hobby with simply just a different focus. Again thanks for the replies.
Best Regards,
Damian >>
It never ceases to amaze me how much TIME and EMOTION you "sophisticated vintage collectors" spend on bashing those that choose to collect modern (or, God forbid -- to make a profit on it). In any case, perhaps you should spend less time obsessing over an entire segment of the hobby, waste less time starting condescending threads, and do your own homework so you don't get taken for over $200.
Irony is a beautiful thing.
Buying raw on ebay wouldn't be so bad if people bid appropriately. The problem is that anytime something halfway decent is listed, people line up to throw away their money. It's the same thing with unopened material. Not that I think a seller like this would let a card go for a song...most sellers have someone they can call if they need some bids...but there still has to be someone willing to place that winning bid for it to work.
Negs / Neutrals
I left them a positive after buying the 59 Aaron described here. It came back a PSA 5 after spending $106 including shipping. Sold it for $77 since I need a 7 for the 59 set. Guess $30 isn't too bad but call me a moron anyway. -
"This, 100% original, 1959 Topps baseball Hank Aaron #380 card is AWESOME with NEAR-PERFECT centering. This card also displays: perfectly clean borders, stunning crisp photographic imagery, suberb bright vivid colors and no creases. The corners are nice with less than average aging. The back of this beautiful card is SPOTLESS and has crisp edges. This Milwaukee Braves legend's card has beautiful eye appeal making it a wonderful choice for grading and or collecting. We guarantee this card is ORIGINAL and UNTRIMMED or your money back. BIDDING STARTS AT ONLY **ONE PENNY** Please bid with confidence as your satisfaction is always guaranteed."
Bosox1976
<< <i>I have a feeling card_collectors_corner is the same group of sellers. They always have fantastic raw, same type of scans >>
I didn't analyze this guy specifically, but there is no doubt in my mind that guys like this use very "sophisticated" shill bidding procedures. Of course at the least they have a shill snipe in for the minimum they want the card to sell at. And now with the bidder 1, bidder 2, crap...it's gotten even easier for them to pull this off. This guy stating these cards are starting at a penny, in my opinion really is technically a fraudulent remark when in my view for sure they've got shill snipes in place.
-
<< <i>"Do smart vintage collectors actually buy cards that aren't
slabbed anymore??? "
//////////////////////////////////////////
I believe that it is VERY rarely "smart" to do so.
I would actually say "never safe," but I
suppose that is not true.
Any chance of a slight savings is FAR outweighed by...
* Chance of fake/altered card
* Chance that seller knows MUCH more about card than buyer
* Expense and hassle of submitting card to PSA
I think even folks who prefer raw-cards in their collections
should consider buying PSA-slabbed cards and cracking them out. >>
I dunno. As a collector on a budget who focuses mostly on <$100 cards, paying $30 (raw + grading) beats paying $100 (already graded). You gotta do your homework on the sellers though, ask for nice big scans, etc.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
typical feedback rating for anyone on ebay which we all know is essentially meaningless. most of the sellers which have been discussed on these boards as sellers of trimmed or altered cards, all have 100% fb ratings.
<<<< didn't analyze this guy specifically, but there is no doubt in my mind that guys like this use very "sophisticated" shill bidding procedures. >>>>
Steve, I believe that you are correct. There is no doubt in my mind that many sellers employ these tactics. When you think about it, how tough would it be? Even if you "won" your own card, it can be re-sold again and again with no fear of being tracked unless someone is willing to spend a lot of time following the history of a specific card. You could have friends, relatives, multiple ebay accounts and handles, any number of ways to do this. This is obviously one of the downsides of an electronic marketplace where you know sellers only by their ebay ID. Even if you could see the ebay IDs, if the card values are high enough, I am sure the level of sophistication could scale to meet the challenge. or threat of being detected.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
"It never ceases to amaze me how much TIME and EMOTION you "sophisticated vintage collectors" spend on bashing those that choose to collect modern (or, God forbid -- to make a profit on it). In any case, perhaps you should spend less time obsessing over an entire segment of the hobby, waste less time starting condescending threads, and do your own homework so you don't get taken for over $200.
Irony is a beautiful thing".
amazingly enough, i actually agree with jmb here. i never thought that would happen.
<< <i>Negs / Neutrals >>
Looks like he's been doing this for a while:
card received a PSA 3 serial # 40070736
Buyer dsheely( 502) Sep-11-02 20:04 1843137513
Reply by great_lakes_auction_house: ???? I don't work for a professional grading company. Sounds like I did good??? Sep-11-02 20:44
card received a PSA 6 (ST) serial # 40070730
Buyer dsheely( 502) Sep-11-02 20:04 1843141954
Reply by great_lakes_auction_house: It sounds like I described the cards very accurately. What is the neutral for?? Sep-11-02 20:42
card received a PSA 4 serial # 40070747
Buyer dsheely( 502) Sep-11-02 20:04 1845049712
Reply by great_lakes_auction_house: I am confused, what is your issue? Wish you would of specified more. Sep-11-02 20:40
card received a PSA 5 serial # 40070744
Buyer dsheely( 502) Sep-11-02 20:04 1843143989
Reply by great_lakes_auction_house: I don't know if I missed something, but what seems to be the problem? Sep-11-02 20:38
Oh, and in defense of modern cards, my last $56 spent at a card show dealer brought me Frank Howard and Steve Francis autographed cards, a Chris Bosh #/499 rookie, a dual jersey card with Guy LaFleur as one of the swatches, a Michael Jordan Upper Deck promo card (that I used to replace one I sold for $5), a Devean George SP Authentic rookie, 3 cards #/25, a Donruss Elite Asiprations card #/66, a Michael Redd gold refractor #/99, 5 other autographed cards, and 32 GU cards, mostly of fairly well-known players, with one surefire future HOFer (Rod Woodson) in the mix. Buying modern doesn't only mean paying $500 for one card of a guy who may never make the majors.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< I could rant on and on as to way I think modern stuff is not desirable >>
Damian
Your desire for only vintage is preference....
But, ya kinda threw down the gauntlet.
I've got no where to go - so I would be interested in why modern is "not" desirable.
As I said - IMO - it's apples and oranges.
"Both" are desirable to me.
On whether or not you got a good buy? I can't tell from the scan and await your personal findings.
I bought a raw T3 for 500$ - it came back a 6! On a good day that card could bring 2-3K or more?
So, I'm all ears on the desirability issue.
mike
Mike,
I was wrong to say modern is not desirable. Obviously it is as evident of its popularity on the forum. I am in agreement that it is apples and oranges. I don't just collect vintage, I just can't get into recent card collecting say early 90's on. Just too many sets, inserts, game used, serial #'d, etc. that I feel it skews the perceived scarcity. I do respect those who collect it though as it still sports cards and understand the passion behind it. I really like coming to this forum because it is diverse and there still is alot of commarodarie. There are many vintage collectors that wouln't touch this place with a ten foot pole and I don't understand that. They are missing out. I should have known better than to title this thread what I did, I was asking for it. I hope I didn't offend anyone too much and that wasn't my intention. I guess my intention was that I thought I got great looking card and wanted to show it off. Thanks for info on the card being in a 6 holder, but it doesn't worry me too much. I am keeping my fingers crossed on what it will grade. At the very least I know I have a card that is unaltered. As for the selling tactics of the seller, I am not sure how I feel. If he is mindlessly busting 6 slabs and selling raw, I don't think it is completely ethical and I don't think he would end up on the plus side on his way to the bank. If he has an eye or a knack for spotting truly undergraded cards then I say good for him.
Damian
////////////////////////////////////////
His primary "knack" is for finding cards that are
properly graded, cracking them out, and convincing
folks that such cards will grade higher than he already
knows they have graded in the past.
Does it look like a bad trim job. links to both auctions are on page 1 of this thread.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
<< <i>Feed back is nutral at this time until I get the card and then I will leave more >>
What a dumba$$. Some people just don't get it.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
<< <i>Hey Stone.... I still haven't spoken a word, but thanks for counting.
Ben >>
<< <i>This extraordinary HOFer's card from this beautifully designed set also displays: many pack-fresh attributes, awesome wet-looking sheen(wow), snow-white clean borders, flawless factory finish, super sharp imagery and no creases. The corners are sharp with tip touches. The back of this "VIRTUALLY FLAWLESS" card is SPOTLESS and has crisp edges. This New York/San Francisco Giants legend's card would make a magnificent addition for any collection. We guarantee this card is AUTHENTIC and UNTRIMMED or your money back. >>
My dad was a pitchman – sold snake oil in the era of street vendors in NYC.
Like Barnum, he had his own personal aphorisms…
“When ya sellin’ somethin’ – people buy stories…”
The description is not the most eloquent I’ve read but profoundly effective. The omission of a grade appraisal has a purpose…
The above [litany] invokes incantations of PSA 8s in the minds of unsuspecting buyers.
So mesmerized by the description – they’re only awoken from their trance by the “snap” of a PSA 6 holder neatly nestled within a registered package.
Barnum may have said it best…
mike
JOhn
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>The seller isn't doing anything wrong IMO, >>
Technically, no. Morally, debateable.
"Hello Lee,
Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. I have read several messages on the board. As many know, there are, at times, inconsistancies among grading companies and I have even personally seen this inconsistancy even within the same company. This is why we do not choose to grade our cards...and not to mention the cost and time factor as well. My personal belief is that, in some cases, grading companies are off the mark(over grade or under grade) with some grades assigned to cards...which is reasonable since grading is very subjective. This is not only my personal view....I have seen it countless times where people could not believe that a card graded what it did and thought it should have graded higher. In some of these cases, where people state this...some are bias...and some are very honest...one has to decide for themselves with how the card looks. As far as the inclination that we have "shill" bidders and we bleach our cards, this is completely false and untrue. All of our cards that are sold in the form of singles (not lots) are all scanned with a HP PSC 1210V All-In-One, printer/scanner/copier(fairly inexpensive unit purchased from Walmart). We do not inhance any settings on this scanner...we simply scan and crop to size. Again Lee, I sincerely appreciate your email.
GLAH"
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I tend to believe him on both of those issues.
He sells "good looking" cards; no need to major-enhance with
the scanner, and no need to shill.
A fun thing that his practices point out is that, in general, a PSA 6
is a very nice looking card. The kind of card that many of us have
sent in expecting an 8+.
It might be smart to start buying high-end 6s of 1955 - 1959 stars.
The more widespread GL's practices become, the more such cards
will be in demand.
<< <i>"As far as the inclination that we have "shill" bidders and we bleach our cards, this is completely false and untrue. "
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I tend to believe him on both of those issues.
He sells "good looking" cards; no need to major-enhance with
the scanner, and no need to shill.
A fun thing that his practices point out is that, in general, a PSA 6
is a very nice looking card. The kind of card that many of us have
sent in expecting an 8+.
It might be smart to start buying high-end 6s of 1955 - 1959 stars.
The more widespread GL's practices become, the more such cards
will be in demand. >>
Good point Storm.
BTW, ya can get some really sharp PSA 7s at a good price also.
But, I've said this many times - there's nothing like a really good 6 for the price.
But, I'm willing to bet that most can get more money raw for a PSA 6 - calling it a conservative Nm - and also hint that it's a conservative grade and who knows? Ya might even get an 8 out of it.
mike
The seller of course mentions nothing about purchasing slabbed cards under another ID, cracking them out and selling raw.
I also contacted this seller earlier today since I was taken by their tactics last year.
Mentioned the "buying ID" and gave them an example.
A spinmeister extraordinaire if you ask me.
Keith
<< <i>"It never ceases to amaze me how much TIME and EMOTION you "sophisticated vintage collectors" spend on bashing those that choose to collect modern (or, God forbid -- to make a profit on it). In any case, perhaps you should spend less time obsessing over an entire segment of the hobby, waste less time starting condescending threads, and do your own homework so you don't get taken for over $200.
Irony is a beautiful thing".
amazingly enough, i actually agree with jmb here. i never thought that would happen. >>
As much as I post on here, I'm bound to say something right eventually!
Riiight. That's it. The fact that most of them were previously purchased as 4's, 5's, or 6's has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Maybe I was wrong about the Ruth being bleached or having its scan altered, but that must have been one filthy cardsaver! Wouldn't you think the original seller might have noticed that on a $400 card?
<< <i>I alerted the seller to this thread and asked if he/she wanted to come on here and defend his/herself, and this was their email response:
"Hello Lee,
Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. I have read several messages on the board. As many know, there are, at times, inconsistancies among grading companies and I have even personally seen this inconsistancy even within the same company. This is why we do not choose to grade our cards...and not to mention the cost and time factor as well. My personal belief is that, in some cases, grading companies are off the mark(over grade or under grade) with some grades assigned to cards...which is reasonable since grading is very subjective. This is not only my personal view....I have seen it countless times where people could not believe that a card graded what it did and thought it should have graded higher. In some of these cases, where people state this...some are bias...and some are very honest...one has to decide for themselves with how the card looks. As far as the inclination that we have "shill" bidders and we bleach our cards, this is completely false and untrue. All of our cards that are sold in the form of singles (not lots) are all scanned with a HP PSC 1210V All-In-One, printer/scanner/copier(fairly inexpensive unit purchased from Walmart). We do not inhance any settings on this scanner...we simply scan and crop to size. Again Lee, I sincerely appreciate your email.
GLAH" >>
I've heard this "sales pitch" before regarding graded cards but I can't remember where. I'll have to think about it...maybe it'll come to me.
Oh yea now I remember...I heard this same stinkin' "sales pitch" about graded cards from almost every weasel card shop owner I've ever been to that didn't sell graded cards.
-
I wonder if this depends on what "is" is?
Feedback is 99.9%. They point out negatives of each card in their descriptions. These boards are literally full of threads about undergraded, overgraded, bumps, and how to maximize value, and most importantly.....the repeated mantra of "buy the card, not the holder". Here we have a seller selling nice, clean, unaltered stuff. The seller does not overgrade. He hypes the good and mentions the bad (which is more than most would do). He has many, many repeat buyers. He replies to a query by a board member with a decent (not great) answer. Yes, he hypes the good points of his cards - and does so more than most - but buyers eat it up. It is a legitimate part of a succesful sales strategy.
Can't help but think that a lot of this negativity smacks of jealousy. I don't want to come off as an apologist for Great Lakes - just calling them as I see them.
Bosox1976
<< <i>I don't recall seeing any specific examples of shill bidding anywhere in this thread, just conjecture. I am with Storm, I also doubt bleaching or anything else. They have a good thing going. Why risk screwing it up? The idea is brilliant in its simplicity.
Feedback is 99.9%. They point out negatives of each card in their descriptions. These boards are literally full of threads about undergraded, overgraded, bumps, and how to maximize value, and most importantly.....the repeated mantra of "buy the card, not the holder". Here we have a seller selling nice, clean, unaltered stuff. The seller does not overgrade. He hypes the good and mentions the bad (which is more than most would do). He has many, many repeat buyers. He replies to a query by a board member with a decent (not great) answer. Yes, he hypes the good points of his cards - and does so more than most - but buyers eat it up. It is a legitimate part of a succesful sales strategy.
Can't help but think that a lot of this negativity smacks of jealousy. I don't want to come off as an apologist for Great Lakes - just calling them as I see them. >>
Mike
I can't argue with your premise.
Let me just say this - the part I spoke about is a technique from what I can see.
He's purposely not giving a grade for the card and letting people draw their own conclusion.
But, let's not be fooled - "he" knows what he is doing and if he's buying nice PSA 6s to push as raw in hopes of getting people to bite? It's not illegal. Ethical? Only if ya know in your heart the card IS a 6 and don't try to list it as an Exmt card.
Fair?
mike
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I am not really at all negative about what this seller - and many others -
are doing. I could very easily do the same thing on a big scale, but I
would not.
The practice is not "hobby-expanding." When folks figure out what happened,
they might be somewhat likely to sour on card buying. That is not good for
any other seller.
I don't know if anybody is jealous, or not. I think most just don't like the
idea that their notion of "full disclosure" is not being met. I do not see
any disclosure obligation on the part of the seller that he is not meeting.
I have been peddling collectibles for a long time. I have yet to have a
buyer say I shafted them. Lots of sellers, I am sure, have had bad
feelings when they learned that I had paid them MUCH less than I might
have for their items; that is just the nature of buying sub-wholesale
and selling at high-retail.
The subject seller is not the Lone Ranger. There are tons of sellers
in ALL tpg-collectible categories doing exactly the same thing. This
guy's practices just happened to have come to light here.
High-end AU coins are particularly vulnerable to being cracked out
and "over-described" with beautiful scans. Folks continue to think
they are going to get a bargain by ripping a dealer. rotflmao
This seller is simply playing on the average card buyers "greed", and desire for an easy buck. His business model is sleaze personified, but he can dance around the issues all day long. Shilling? Nope. Enhance scans? Nope, don't need to. Cards trimmed? Nope, in fact, they were all authenticated by the best graders in the business before they were cracked out of their holders. If buyers would just employ more common sense, and less greed, this seller could never get away with this. But, they unfortunately will - because there will always be another less knowledgeable buyer around the corner.
Exactly right. He is letting people fill in the blank on what grade each card is. Given the size of the photos, and no option for supersize, I am amazed at how much people will bid. Irrational exuberance by buyers - who are responsible for their own actions - is the best thing an Auction seller can hope for.
Sure he could temper them, by giving out the card's former PSA grade... but that is not the sellers job. Not in cards, cars, real estate, etc. Anybody could blow up the picture, as a board member here did. Anybody could do the homework that I did in the other thread on the Williams card, or that others here did on the Mays card. Anybody could email the seller and press for a grade estimate. It is called due diligence and everyone should do it (though I don't always practice what I preach), and the onus is on the buyer. You hear the advice on these threads time and time again...if it should be graded, it would be graded. Do your homework. Know who the best sources are. Ask questions. Get better scans. Read feedback. Etc, etc.
This guy doesn't sell counterfeits. Doesn't sell trimmed. Doesn't sell recolored. Just weird that he is being villified here. That's all.
Bosox1976
///////////////////////////////////////
I continue to believe that there are not an infinite number of
suckers out there in the card-collecting game.
I think it is possible to virtually kill the business if it becomes
too dangerous to participate in. New folks will hear about the
risks, and just stay out. If that happens too much, we've got
a problem.
A review of the sellers FB shows that he does alot of newbies.
BUT, he aslo does alot of experienced folks who think they know
more about cards than the seller does.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
For folks who are not already doing this:
Simply rightclick and save the picture.
Open the picture in "Windows Pic and FAX Viewer."
Use the magnifying icon to make the picture pretty big
w/o losing too much detail.
Works for me almost everytime.
"Molon Labe"
"Ya can't con an honest man."
mike
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Just take it slow and easy. You will know when it is about to break-up.
It works well looking for fuzzy corners. Less so looking for tiny creases.
/////////////////////////////////////
In any event, it is certainly somewhat more difficult.
But, I don't think the buyers are being dishonest; they
are just overly optimistic, and think they can get a bargain
from someone who spends every waking hour figuring out
how to sell cards for the highest possible prices.