1895 Proof Morgan Dollar Digital Photographic Technique (replaced title)

cho10

Note for all: Stuart suggested that I modify the layout of this post and the title.
This is the original title: Picture of a Morgan (grade revealed) with flawless cheeek (large img)
I am not 100% positive that my intentions were not clear but all I have done was simply cut and pasted the ending part placing it befor the image instead of after as it was originally
------------------------------------ start of this thread ------------------------------------------
This coin is one of my favorite coins.
Every once in a while I just have to go have a look at it.
I have no idea how many pictures I have taken of this coin.
Camera is a Nikon D200.
The lens is a Sigma 105mm Macro F2.8,
100 ASA,
Kodak gray card for manual white balance adjustment.
Lighting is from 2 150W Osram lamps (similar to Ott) - that would register as 450W incandescent lamps - at the sides at a 45 degree angle with a reflective cone to avoid glare.
I also use a Nikon 60 mm. The Sigma 105mm and the Nikon 60mm both produce great results. I happen to prefer the Sigma but I have no good explanation for why I prefer it.


Try guessing the grade although with proof coins the criteria is not quite the same as it is for Circulation Strikes.

ricko

Wow.. no lack of detail... what is the grade? Cheers, RickO

jbsteven

pr63

lets see a circulation strike with a cheek like that one.

WinPitcher

Very nice.

Will that scatch on the reverse lower it any? Can't tell cuz of the scale of the pic.


Steve


edited to add: Grade? I have no idea. But i like it.

Stuart

PR-62 ??

Coxe

Gotta be careful of cheeks that have been buffed out to appear flawless. Not saying that coin is but I have seen some that look excellent at arm's length that have been altered. It is as problematic as puttying gold.

curly

um....aint anybody looking at the date on that booger?

Coxe

<< <i>um....aint anybody looking at the date on that booger? >>



I believe that was evident from the first reply.

dizzyfoxx

It actually looks 'cleaned' IMO.

Coxe

<< <i>It actually looks 'cleaned' IMO. >>



Most 19th century proofs have been cleaned to some extent and are given passes. It was common practice for collectors of the prior era. There are also obvious slide marks = cabinet friction. Again, they go with the territory.

commoncents05

i think the sufaces were altered in a way to make it look cameo. just a guess

edited to add: it looks like the coin is in a PCGS holder, so i doubt this is the case.

-Paul

kiyote

<< <i>um....aint anybody looking at the date on that booger? >>



Yeah, that's what I was thinking.. it's like "Look at my new seat cushions!" then posting a picture of a Ferrari...

cho10

Here is a different view of the obverse (taken with the coin at a slight angle).

The coin is an 1895 Proof (880 made as per mint records).

The coin is in a PCGS holder and the provenance is Bowers and Merena when it was still owned by Dave Bowers and Ray Merena.

The coin is exactly as you see it (i.e. undoctored). I still have to establish how to capture the reflective beauty of a proof like this. I have held a DMPL next to it and the DMPL which is nice on its own just pales in comparison.

The longish line that WinPitcher refered to is on the holder. The second image shows no line as it disappears according to the angle you have the holder at. If the line had been on the coin no twisting or turning of the holder could make it disappear.



and of the reverse

tradedollarnut

Nothing more beautiful than a circulation strike with a truly flawless cheek. That cheek, for a proof, is far from flawless tho.

cho10

<< <i>Nothing more beautiful than a circulation strike with a truly flawless cheek. That cheek, for a proof, is far from flawless tho. >>



Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I am not interested in possessing a PR68.

The grade is visible on the holder. I want to thank the people that have replied to this thread for their time.

cho10

The sole purpose of this thread was to discuss coin photography.
Had I felt the urge to discuss how some people spend their money (and make sure that we are all aware of how they do so) I would have selected a different title for this thread.


After a few years here, I have learned to avoid threads that mainly promote the the self serving views of some dealers and and some investors.
While it is not fair to put all the investors or all the dealers in one basket, it is fair to say that people with too much money lose contact with the real world.
I don't care if the money was earned honestly or not. That is not the issue.


A collector may feel some interest for a lowly VG08 regardless of the fact that it is not worth $10K. An investor type would probably rush to find some disinfectant should he or she have the misfortune to simply "touch" such a coin.


Marie Antoinette was told that the population was starving and could not even afford to buy bread.
She is quoted - this cannot be proved for sure - as having said "if they can't eat bread let them eat cake" (S’ils n’ont plus de pain, qu'ils mangent de la brioche).
There will always be some Marie Antoinettes around that feel the urge to let us know how well off they are.
For such people a $40K or $50K coin is worthless in comparison to a $150K coin or a $200K plus coin.


I believe in what Dave Bowers has stated more than once: buy the coin and not the slab.
I will add that I think that people should look for coins that they like.
That is what I do.


The investment types concentrate on buying slabs worth big bucks.
Such people are convinced that their deep pockets will make everybody look at them in awe.
Collecting savvy and knowledge cannot be purchased.
One can buy the services of an expert.
The purchase of an expert's services won't necessarily convey any additional knowledge though.
All it will do is make money change hands.

Stuart

cho10: If your point of this thread is to discuss coin photography, then it would be useful for you to try some additional lighting angles on that really pretty 1895 Proof Morgan.

I would recommend a couple of incandescent lamps to illuminate both the devices and the fileds of the coin more brightly. We will get a better idea of how the coins looks in that way.

I am looking forward to seieng how your new photos look.

pbfloyd

Bottom line...........one hell of a nice morgan!!!!!! The proof morgans are a special coin.

cho10

<< <i>cho10: If your point of this thread is to discuss coin photography, then it would be useful for you to try some additional lighting angles on that really pretty 1895 Proof Morgan. I would recommend a couple of incandescent lamps to illuminate both the devices and the fileds of the coin more brightly. We will get a better idea of how the coins looks in that way. I am looking forward to seieng how your new photos look. >>




Thanks for the advice. I'll try that. In truth I had thought of adding some tungsten based lamps but what is really puzzling me is whether there is a way to capture the incredible reflective surfaces that are so literally shocking in this coin. My goal at the time I purchased this coin was to have a complete "run" of Morgans by date and mint. The registry introduced me to the realm of VAM's.

Digital photography (first with a D70 and now with the D200) has introduced me to the world of coin imaging. I consider myself a novice and an apprentice (I feel that way for most of the things I do). Still, as a colector, I feel that sharing my coins with others (albeit via images) can only help me gain additional knowledge.

billboat

Do you have any larger pictures?

commoncents05

<< <i> Do you have any larger pictures? >>



I can hardly see it.

-Paul

tradedollarnut

Sorry to have annoyed you - it certainly was not my intent. If the purpose of your post was to discuss coin photography, the title and original post weren't very clear ... the title drew one to the cheek area with the intent of seeing no flaws.

Stuart

cho10: Try taking one set of photos with appropriate lighting to show the toning coloration and the device surfaces, and a 2nd set of photos with very different lighting angles to show the mirrored fields.

I also recommend that you refer to Mark Goodman's very instructive photography articles posted on the web. Mark is one of the very best coin photographers around.

Mark Goodman's (MGoodM3) Coin Photography Web Site

librtyhead

I would trade my left kidney for that coin!........or the right! Nice pictures and thanks for showing it.

cho10

<< <i>

<< <i> Do you have any larger pictures? >>

I can hardly see it. -Paul >>



Shucks billboat and commoncents05, I decided not to get involved in optomitry a long time ago.


Hmmmm, the first image is 2499 x 4812 pixels.

I suppose I could supply you with a really cool 3872 x 2592 pixel image if you were to say "pretty please with sugar on it" 16 times standing on one foot and then uploaded a video for us to see you do it.

billboat

cho 10--just kidding--nice pictures of a nice coin!

Edit: I want spell check!!! Wish I had an 1895 proof!

BlindedByEgo

cho10: If your point of this thread is to discuss coin photography, then clearly stating so in the title and the body of the post would be helpful.

There are people here who could not financially imagine owning even an impaired 1895 Proof Morgan. Be careful with whom you compare yourself.

HighRelief

Very nice clear close up pictures of your 1895 Proof Cho10. The strike on the devices are sharp as a razor.

What a privilege to be one of the few to own one

cho10

<< <i>cho10: If your point of this thread is to discuss coin photography, then clearly stating so in the title and the body of the post would be helpful. There are people here who could not financially imagine owning even an impaired 1895 Proof Morgan. Be careful with whom you compare yourself. >>



Now this is an interesting twist. I should "be careful with whom" I "compare "myself" ?

I don't really care about what others do with their money, their coins or their time.

MYOB is a rule I try to adhere to. The fact that I own an important coin is not being used as a compartive factor.

Should I avoid mentioning that this coin is beautiful?
Are you suggesting adopting some form of politically correct form of expression that escapes me?
Should I remove this coin from the PCGS Registry to appease your concern?

The Registry is a place where there are all levels of coins and all levels of income.
The Registry does not reflect at all the majority of collectors of the Morgan series or for that matter of any other series.

If one looks at the statistics that show 4351895 Proof Morgans in all grades and type how come there are not 300 or more participants in the Morgan Proof Registry?
The fact is that most of those coins are hidden away.

I like to share my coins which is why I have posted pictures of all of them in my Registry sets.
I also enjoy photography and I find that discussing it here makes more sense than not discussing it at al or discussing it with people who know nothing about coinsl.

I appreciate that a red and blue pencil is something that a lot of people have aspired to using starting in kindergarten.
I am sure that there are many more useful places for such tutorial endeavors.

ILikeMercs

CarlWohlforth

Awesome coin!

That is the reason I just love proof coins. A few hairlines (most people don't even notice) brings the grade down to choice. Purists love the MS Morgans with no hits to the cheek, but I much prefer a proof with a few, hardly noticeable, hairlines. I can't afford MS 68+ Morgans...

As to the photography I would certainly reduce the size of the image. On most monitors one would have to scroll to see the whole coin. Certainly that is not the experience one would have with the coin in hand.

darktone

Nice coin and nice pictures! I think the cheek looks awseome too- thanks for sharing! mike

billboat

Cho 10--Pay no attention to the ankle biters--great coin, great pictures--thanks for the opportunity to see it.

cho10

<< <i>Awesome coin! That is the reason I just love proof coins. A few hairlines (most people don't even notice) brings the grade down to choice. Purists love the MS Morgans with no hits to the cheek, but I much prefer a proof with a few, hardly noticeable, hairlines. I can't afford MS 68+ Morgans... As to the photography I would certainly reduce the size of the image. On most monitors one would have to scroll to see the whole coin. Certainly that is not the experience one would have with the coin in hand. >>



Thanks.

I posted those enormous pictures so that people could see the details that otherwise would never be seen.

The detail of the ear, the detail of the hair around the ear, the mouth and of course the cheek. The incredible breast feathers make me feel a sense of pleasure every time I look at that coin.

<PRE wrap="">ILikeMercs posted 2 reduced images taken from my shots that show the actual size (more or less) of the coin.

I am glad you like it.</PRE>

Stuart

Cho10: I have taken the liberty to post the following images to bring out some more of the pretty detail, in an attempt to see if they may convey a bit more of how the coin actually looks to you in person.

etexmike

<< <i>um....aint anybody looking at the date on that booger? >>



I did after it finally loaded and that took a while even with DSL.

I can only dream of owning a coin like this one.

-------------

etexmike

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>

<< <i>cho10: If your point of this thread is to discuss coin photography, then clearly stating so in the title and the body of the post would be helpful. There are people here who could not financially imagine owning even an impaired 1895 Proof Morgan. Be careful with whom you compare yourself. >>



Now this is an interesting twist. I should "be careful with whom" I "compare "myself" ?

I don't really care about what others do with their money, their coins or their time.

MYOB is a rule I try to adhere to. The fact that I own an important coin is not being used as a compartive factor.

Should I avoid mentioning that this coin is beautiful?
Are you suggesting adopting some form of politically correct form of expression that escapes me?
Should I remove this coin from the PCGS Registry to appease your concern?

The Registry is a place where there are all levels of coins and all levels of income.
The Registry does not reflect at all the majority of collectors of the Morgan series or for that matter of any other series.

If one looks at the statistics that show 4351895 Proof Morgans in all grades and type how come there are not 300 or more participants in the Morgan Proof Registry?
The fact is that most of those coins are hidden away.

I like to share my coins which is why I have posted pictures of all of them in my Registry sets.
I also enjoy photography and I find that discussing it here makes more sense than not discussing it at al or discussing it with people who know nothing about coinsl.

I appreciate that a red and blue pencil is something that a lot of people have aspired to using starting in kindergarten.
I am sure that there are many more useful places for such tutorial endeavors. >>



My point was that you took offense to another post, inferring that because this was a five figure coin instead of a six figure one, that certain people somehow looked down upon the coin. You cited Marie Antoinette and pointed out some perceived socio-economic inappropriateness by other forum members.

Now you come back insisting that you aren't throwing your wealth in anybody's face just by posting a five figure coin. If a five figure coin is "appropriate" in your mind, but one that is six figures isn't, then what exactly IS your threshold?

I'm glad you posted the coin. It's a nice coin. And until you bristled at what I thought was a non-attack in your Marie Antoinette post, all I thought was "gee, maybe he should have said it was all about the imaging". I notice that you really didn't comment on that part of my response. And if you are looking to find people who will bend to your will and MYOB - either: 1) sign their paychecks or 2) don't expect to find them on a public forum.

Now, back on topic. I loved the huge image, and would prefer alongside a smaller image that can be seen in one screen, all at once. Sort of the difference between looking at a coin through a 10X loupe and just looking at it with the unaided eye. Two different experiences. The coin itself is a marvelous coin that I would be ecstatic to own. I'd have to sell off an awful lot of widgets to be able to swing that one.

In the end, I'm sorry that you were quick to take offense. It has shown me one more time that I am better off in seeking to understand rather than be understood.

I meant no insult in my comment about comparing yourself to others - I was just a little surprised and wrote in haste. In retrospect it obviously made about as much sense to you as your comment about the red and blue pencil in kindergarten did to me.

dragon

Here's one of my CC's with a near perfect cheek:

cho10

This post was started as a continuation of another post that I started a few hours earlier.
Picture of a Morgan Dollar(large image)
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=571247

So what do we have now?
Most of the posts have been from nice people that love coins just as much as I do.
There have been people who sincerely want to help me in my quest for improvement in my coin related photographic skills.
I truly appreciate the help and suggestions received including the (Photoshop?) enhancements which simply bring out more detail.
I am a semi professional photographer in a different life and I have done some good things (the words of others) when
taking pictures of people, wildlife, places and so forth.
Coins are instead a completely different "kettle of fish".
Reflective, treacherous because of the plastic holders, etc.
It has been suggested that I did not give enough background in my initial post.



<< <i>Camera is a Nikon D200.
The lens is a Sigma 105mm Macro F2.8,
100 ASA,
Kodak gray card for manual white balance adjustment.
Lighting is from 2 150W Osram lamps (similar to Ott) - that would register as 450W incandescent lamps - at the sides at a 45 degree angle with a reflective cone to avoid glare.
I also use a Nikon 60 mm. The Sigma 105mm and the Nikon 60mm both produce great results. I happen to prefer the Sigma but I have no good explanation for why I prefer it.
Try guessing the grade although with proof coins the criteria is not quite the same as it is for Circulation Strikes. >>



Why would I have posted similar information in the very first post if the purpose was
anything other than photographic on the one hand and aesthetic on the other?
Possibly I should have taken account of the fact that the enormous size of the picture
distracted from the text at the end of the initial post.
If that is the case I'll try to avoid similar constructs the next time I make a post.
Now to come to the "flames".
Inserting an unsolicited "appraisal" was not appreciated.
I reacted and I do not regret having done so.
There has been an apology which has been accepted, so let's just push that aside.

There is another point,
BlicedByEgo said:


<< <i>In the end, I'm sorry that you were quick to take offense. It has shown me one more time that I am better off in seeking to understand rather than be understood.

I meant no insult in my comment about comparing yourself to others - I was just a little surprised and wrote in haste. In retrospect it obviously made about as much sense to you as your comment about the red and blue pencil in kindergarten did to me. >>



Yes, all of us seem to be prone to react quickly or too quickly.
I am no better than others in that respect.
Would a second more dedicated by all involved to musing over the written words have avoided some mild "flames"?
Possibly. But then again the exchanges were civil so I have no real complaints.
This seems to be one of the few places in which people seem to actually express their views without reverting to name calling.
BlicedByEgo mentioned a threshold. MYOB is my threshold. I look at the things
I do and nothing more even if I do listen (or try to listen) to what others say..

I am always impressed by forms of beauty.
A Brasher Doubloon will do much more for me than an 1804 dollar or a 1933 DE.
That is because of who Brasher was and his achievements. His history impresses me.
The monetary factor present in many rarities that exist because of guile or greed really do nothing for me at all.
A $7,000,000 coin is fine for the hobby because it attracts nationwide and worldwide attention
although in practical terms the statehood quarters have done much more.

The fact that we all agree on the fact that the 1895 coin is nice is more important and justifies
my desire to let other collectors see it (including at 10X) in a manner that neither auction catalogs
nor online auctions would ever offer.
The enhanced images are very nice (thanks Stuart) but even they can't render justice to the reflective surfaces that, as I said in a previous post, make a nice DMPL pale in comparison.
Hopefully we can once again concentrate on aesthetics and photography once again and leave appraisals, sociology and so forth to other venues.
I have a number of changes to make to my picture taking setup based on the information I have collected here.

blueifalcon

Very sweet! I am envious.

DUIGUY

<<"if they can't eat bread let them eat cake" >>

or Boritoes,

Love the Morgan , and boritoes !!

bestclser1

Very nice Morgan Proof.Date isnt bad either.

cho10

<< <i>Very nice Morgan Proof.Date isnt bad either. >>



Yep

Rob790

I like the big pictures! Can always zoom it down to fit my screen unlike pictures that are too small.

A beautiful coin no doubt. I was thinking you may try using more lighting at a lower angle to bring out the cameo contrast more. Proofs in a slab are harder to capture than a mint state coin from my experience.

Of course, experimentation is what will make your pictures top notch!

Thanks for posting those pictures, they are saved on my hard drive!

Rob

DieClash

<< <i>The fact that we all agree on the fact that the 1895 coin is nice is more important and justifies
my desire to let other collectors see it (including at 10X) in a manner that neither auction catalogs
nor online auctions would ever offer. >>



This is what I truly value about these boards. You can experience the hobby here in a way that is truly remarkable. And there are no admission fees. PCGS offers this forum up for free. I love it!

Thanks for sharing the images Claude. I admire the Morgan for its rarity and beauty as much as I appreciate the photography lesson.

mgoodm3

Photographically it's not bad. A few things that would make the images better: Get your lights at a higher angle than 45 degrees, you should be able to get them quite high with a 105mm lens. That'll improve the lighting dramatically. Add a little exposure compensation (the images ae a little underexposed).

TwoSides2aCoin

I like coins, even imperfect brown wheaties have a following. We poor folk just get free entertainment here