Are PCGS graders so fanatical about The Man™ that they might subliminally downgrade an NGC cross-ove

Longacre · January 31, 2007 3:49AM

I think that there are different levels of loyalty by various employees to their employer (aka The Man™). Some employees are fanatical followers of their employer, and others are there just for a paycheck and leave at 5 PM. I once worked for a very, very large Big Four public accounting firm, and one of the employees was voted “Mr. [name of big accounting firm]” because of his loyalty and commitment. This employee once said (with total and complete seriousness), that he was willing to die for the Firm if called upon. I never knew that public accountancy was dangerous, but I digress.

In another thread, someone mentioned that they thought PCGS graders (or NGC graders, if you want to look at the flip side) MAY subliminally downgrade a cross-over coin that comes in a competitor’s holder. Personally, I don’t think it is true. However, does anyone know if graders at the big TPGs are so fanatical about their employers that they might subliminally do this? It seems odd to think this happens, but maybe I am an employee-rebel type.

Barndog · January 31, 2007 3:51AM

people have posted here previously and commented that they have gotten coins to cross from one grading service to another, most at the same grade but some at higher.

dbldie55 · January 31, 2007 3:52AM

I will ask a grader later today when I see him. I have had 100% success in crossing NGC to PCGS, so I really don't think it happens.

Aegis3 · January 31, 2007 4:53AM

<< In another thread, someone mentioned that they thought PCGS graders (or NGC graders, if you want to look at the flip side) MAY subliminally downgrade a cross-over coin that comes in a competitor’s holder. Personally, I don’t think it is true. However, does anyone know if graders at the big TPGs are so fanatical about their employers that they might subliminally do this? It seems odd to think this happens, but maybe I am an employee-rebel type. >>

This would seem to imply that a crossover-in-holder and a "crossover"-first-cracked-out would on average give the same results.

planetsteve · January 31, 2007 4:55AM

I wonder how much turnover there is in the top TPG grading staffs. Less than 5 or 10% annually? Or is it a very different picture?

Elcontador · January 31, 2007 5:00AM

I sincerely believe that PCGS wants to see high end for the grade NGC material in their (PCGS) holders. I believe any NGC coin which is so-so for the grade will have a hard time crossing into a PC holder at the same grade.

Elcontador · January 31, 2007 5:02AM

Longacre, as an employee of a CPA firm - especially a large one - when I got started, you were SUPPOSED to be like the guy you referenced as Mr. Name of the Firm, or else you were deemed to have a "bad attitude."

Longacre · January 31, 2007 5:05AM

<< Longacre, as an employee of a CPA firm - especially a large one - when I got started, you were SUPPOSED to be like the guy you referenced as Mr. Name of the Firm, or else you were deemed to have a "bad attitude." >>

Maybe I was an Accounting Bad A$$.

stockwiz · January 31, 2007 5:09AM

it's the coin, stupid. (and not the holder)

roadrunner · January 31, 2007 11:45AM

Without a doubt, the original supposition is TRUE. To what extent that practice occurs, probably varies from grader to grader and week to week. In any event, it happens frequently. And considering that less than 50% of PCGS coins cross to NGC (for what reason anyone would do this is puzzling) states that it's true on both sides of the fence as well.

roadrunner

Fairlaneman · January 31, 2007 11:57AM

Nice coins cross. Liners or just so so for the grade do not. Thats it. If a submitter has a doubt, crack it.

Ken

OneCent · January 31, 2007 12:01PM

<< I once worked for a very, very large Big Four public accounting firm, and one of the employees was voted “Mr. [name of big accounting firm]” because of his loyalty and commitment. This employee once said (with total and complete seriousness), that he was willing to die for the Firm if called upon. I never knew that public accountancy was dangerous, but I digress.

>>

I too worked for a Big Four public accounting Firm. I know that same exact guy your referring to! I think that there are one or two of those types in every firm. They typically have a heart-attack from stress before they make partnership.....

Maybe that was the guy that did all of that shredding down there in TX. He certainly died for the Firm...

Sorry for the OT comment, but I couldn't resist.

Casey · January 31, 2007 12:43PM

Maybe I was an Accounting Bad A$$.

>>

PrivateCoinCollector · January 31, 2007 1:01PM

<< I will ask a grader later today when I see him. I have had 100% success in crossing NGC to PCGS, so I really don't think it happens. >>

Are there any graders on these boards that you know of?

DHeath · January 31, 2007 1:04PM

Are there any graders on these boards that you know of?

Brother, everybody here's a grader.

kieferscoins · January 31, 2007 10:41PM

I'm a ICG grader. I know for a fact PCGS and NGC graders read this forum. They might not post here but more people read things here than you might think.

Cameron Kiefer

RYK · January 31, 2007 10:43PM

<< I'm a ICG grader. I know for a fact PCGS and NGC graders read this forum. They might not post here but more people read things here than you might think.

Cameron Kiefer >>

So long as my better half does not read this forum, I am not the least bit concerned who else does.

homerunhall · February 1, 2007 1:59AM

Though some would never believe it...like the guy who said...

"Without a doubt, the original supposition is TRUE. To what extent that practice occurs, probably varies from grader to grader and week to week. In any event, it happens frequently. And considering that less than 50% of PCGS coins cross to NGC (for what reason anyone would do this is puzzling) states that it's true on both sides of the fence as well."

we actually try super hard to cross coins. Our graders are specifically told to cross every coin they can. We consider it "creaming" another grading service's "inventory." We want as many coins as possible in PCGS holders. Think about it, the more coins that are in our holders, the better it looks for us.

That said, we just can't cross coins that clearly don't meet our standards. It is also hard to grade coins through holders, especially toned proof coins.

hrh

PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work????

ColonialCoinUnion · February 1, 2007 2:02AM

<< PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

Sure - I think having this information would be very useful.

tmot99 · February 1, 2007 2:03AM

<< PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

Absoutely and for more than one reason. It definitely services as a learning tool. To learn what PCGS sees in a coin versus another grading company. Also, even if the submitter knows how to grade, maybe they missed something. It also gives the submitter an option that says, "ok, PCGS thinks this is a 62 rather than an NGC63. Maybe I'd prefer to have a PCGS62 than an NGC63" and then resubmit.

mgoodm3 · February 1, 2007 2:07AM

...YOU WILL DOWNGRADE ALL CROSSOVERS....

Longacre · February 1, 2007 2:10AM

<< PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

I think this would be useful information.

bushmaster8 · February 1, 2007 2:18AM

<< 
PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

Yes!!!

RegistryCoin · February 1, 2007 2:52AM

<< would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

Nah, no need. As in all PCGS decisions, we, here on the boards, simply take your word for any decisions made.

foxxze · February 1, 2007 12:11PM

I have to think that the submitter of a coin for crossover is not going to waste their time and money to send in a coin they do not firmly believe has a chance of crossing . I have several box`s full of NGC crap that it would be foolish for me to try and cross .
It is very good news that PCGS graders are encouraged to cross coins -very good news indeed !

And to find out that NGC cross`s less then half of the PCGS coins presented to them !?? oh that`s rich ..........absolutely a gut buster !

dizzlecc · February 1, 2007 12:48PM

I think knowing the PCGS grade on a cross over that did not succeed would be great.

I have a small group of prooflike coins that I want to submit and it would be beneficial to know if they did not cross due to grade or depth of mirror.

Wolf359 · February 1, 2007 12:57PM

I have to think that the submitter of a coin for crossover is not going to waste their time and money to send in a coin they do not firmly believe has a chance of crossing .

Actually, it happens all the time. The price can double to quadruple in a PCGS holder at the same grade for rare dates. Or if the coin is a borderline cleaned, you leave it in the holder for crossing and don't crack.

roadrunner · February 1, 2007 1:49PM

we actually try super hard to cross coins. Our graders are specifically told to cross every coin they can. We consider it "creaming" another grading service's "inventory." We want as many coins as possible in PCGS holders. Think about it, the more coins that are in our holders, the better it looks for us.

That said, we just can't cross coins that clearly don't meet our standards. It is also hard to grade coins through holders, especially toned proof coins.

My own experience in gem seated coins (25+ years) does not support the above statement. I also played the crackout/upgrade game very successfully in the 1988-1990 period. It is no where near the same today. Considering that I am 0% on my personal crossovers for my BEST NGC coins, and <10% on my best NGC coins sent through the world's #1 coin dealer, tends to support my original thought. I'll also add that I am at 100% for upgrading seated coins (via grade review) in old PCGS holders. I'm also 100% for crossing ANACS coins. So something here is not consistent. What, I can only grade coins properly via PCGS and ANACS plastic but not through NGC plastic? It's clear to me that MS type coins in 66 to 67 holders just do not cross as a rule. In fact I had one particular wonder coin that went in 3X and DNC each time. The coin was nicer than anything I've ever seen in an equivalent PCGS holder. When showed to DH at a Long Beach show he concurred it should have crossed. That particular coin will more than likely upgrade at NGC before I spend additional time looking for a PCGS cross at the lower grade. Plus it will be worth more as an NGC68 than a PCGS 67. Darn, there's that same concept that plastic has value....and indeed it does in the new age coin market.

I should not have to send in my entire collection for regrade or cross to help in my submission results. Though it appears that's one of the ways to help ensure consistent grading. That said, I'm still content to sell my uncrossable NGC coins to crack out dealers for very healthy premiums.

roadrunner

Curley · February 1, 2007 1:55PM

I tried to cross two PQ+++ coins at the August ANA from NGC to PCGS. Both came back uncrossed in their old holders. Showed them to a dealer who is highly respected on this forum and he told me they were better than 80% of the PCGS coins slabbed at the grade AND he wasn't surprised at the result. He said each service has a bias against the other.

Bottom line, I wasted $200 for PCGS' ego trip. Won't be doing it again. They are fools from a marketing standpoint to not jump at crossing every PQ coin to their slab. It would only increase their standing in the market at their competitor's expense. But ego often gets in the way of smart business. Business they won't be receiving from me again.

roadrunner · February 1, 2007 2:20PM

Just based on the sheer numbers, one can see that on most series, PCGS and NGC agree about 80% of the time (check the pops). An obvious exception is bust halves in higher grades..or moderns and Lincolns for example. They don't agree at all here. I'd expect only 1 out of 2 or 1 out of 3 NGC MS65 bust halves (or MS bust anything) to meet PCGS standards. But in general bust, seated, etc type they are fairly close such that a 30-40% cross rate of each other's coins doesn't make sense when they agree overall 80% of the time per the pop reports. That's the math talking, not me.

roadrunner

coinlieutenant · February 1, 2007 2:31PM

It would be nice to know the PCGS grade if they dont cross David.

I personally have had good luck crossing coins, although I have only submitted maybe 30 or so for crossover. I am running at 90% or a bit higher perhaps. Mostly I crack out.

But sometimes, the NGC protection is worth it. Given that more than one bite from the grading apple is sometimes required, it is nicer to have some coins safe and sound, especially high end coins where they are more vulnerable out of the holder.

These are two seated coins that crossed the first time into PCGS top pop holders...the dime into a 67 (pop 1/0) holder which is the best by two grades and the half which is a pop 4/0. I post both since they are different type of coins...one with tons of blazing pop, the other which is virgin and toned with creamy mossy luster.

leothelyon · February 1, 2007 3:44PM

And considering that less than 50% of PCGS coins cross to NGC

I've posted this info in another thread but I think it will serve the point I want to make here.

Here are some pop updates for the 1943-PDS silver war Jefferson nickels.

1943-P 5C MS65 PCGS. PCGS Population (320/1598). NGC Census: (99/3174).
1943-D 5C MS65 PCGS. PCGS Population (546/1119). NGC Census: (98/4567).
1943-S 5C MS65 PCGS. PCGS Population (315/999). NGC Census: (59/3185).

Total population numbers for PCGS MS65 1181/3716 and NGC 257/10926

1943-P 5C MS67 PCGS. PCGS Population (193/0). NGC Census: (1459/13).
1943-D 5C MS67 PCGS. PCGS Population (118/0). NGC Census: (2597/5).
1943-S 5C MS67 PCGS. PCGS Population (74/0). NGC Census: (1597/2).

Out of those 10926 coins NGC graded above MS65, 5653 were graded MS67 with 20 MS68.
Out of those 3716 coins PCGS graded above MS65, only 385 were MS67 with 0 MS68.

Noting that NGC has graded 5653 coins MS67 to the 385 coins PCGS has graded at the same grade, the crossing percentage from NGC to PCGS has to be less than one percent. If the crossing rate was 15%, the PCGS pops would more then triple what they are now.

we actually try super hard to cross coins. Our graders are specifically told to cross every coin they can. We consider it "creaming" another grading service's "inventory That said, we just can't cross coins that clearly don't meet our standards.

Looking at the numbers again, NGC graded 1943-PDS nickels certainly don't appear to be a good source for high quality coins. If your collecting coins based to the grading standards of one grading service, at what level of quality would your collection be based on?

Leo

GRANDAM · February 1, 2007 4:13PM

<< PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

Homerun,

Sure, that is the best idea I've heard all day. Seriously it would help us all become better graders.

GrandAm

LeeG · February 1, 2007 10:21PM

I believe that the more information one has, the better that person is. Life is a journey of learning. Please share this information so we can continue to learn.

Heres my best cross to date:

NGC 66 RB to PCGS 66 RB (POP 1/0)

IGWT · February 1, 2007 10:38PM

Providing the reason(s) for a DNC will eventually increase the number of cross-over attempts as collectors gain confidence through education.

foxxze · February 2, 2007 12:13PM

<< I have to think that the submitter of a coin for crossover is not going to waste their time and money to send in a coin they do not firmly believe has a chance of crossing .

Actually, it happens all the time. The price can double to quadruple in a PCGS holder at the same grade for rare dates. Or if the coin is a borderline cleaned, you leave it in the holder for crossing and don't crack. >>

..........SO YOU BELIEVE people send in coins all the time , for crossover , even though they believe the coin`s HAVEN`T A CHANCE of crossing - ??

foxxze · February 2, 2007 12:23PM

<< And considering that less than 50% of PCGS coins cross to NGC

I've posted this info in another thread but I think it will serve the point I want to make here.

Here are some pop updates for the 1943-PDS silver war Jefferson nickels.

1943-P 5C MS65 PCGS. PCGS Population (320/1598). NGC Census: (99/3174).
1943-D 5C MS65 PCGS. PCGS Population (546/1119). NGC Census: (98/4567).
1943-S 5C MS65 PCGS. PCGS Population (315/999). NGC Census: (59/3185).

Total population numbers for PCGS MS65 1181/3716 and NGC 257/10926

1943-P 5C MS67 PCGS. PCGS Population (193/0). NGC Census: (1459/13).
1943-D 5C MS67 PCGS. PCGS Population (118/0). NGC Census: (2597/5).
1943-S 5C MS67 PCGS. PCGS Population (74/0). NGC Census: (1597/2).

Out of those 10926 coins NGC graded above MS65, 5653 were graded MS67 with 20 MS68.
Out of those 3716 coins PCGS graded above MS65, only 385 were MS67 with 0 MS68.

Noting that NGC has graded 5653 coins MS67 to the 385 coins PCGS has graded at the same grade, the crossing percentage from NGC to PCGS has to be less than one percent. If the crossing rate was 15%, the PCGS pops would more then triple what they are now.

we actually try super hard to cross coins. Our graders are specifically told to cross every coin they can. We consider it "creaming" another grading service's "inventory That said, we just can't cross coins that clearly don't meet our standards.

Looking at the numbers again, NGC graded 1943-PDS nickels certainly don't appear to be a good source for high quality coins. If your collecting coins based to the grading standards of one grading service, at what level of quality would your collection be based on?

Leo >>

Leo ,
your case study is very enlightning : it could be said that very , very few war nickles in 67 would cross from NGC to PCGS holders ! It would be intresting to see your population comparisons applyed to other series .

BAJJERFAN · February 2, 2007 12:38PM

From a practical standpoint the graders get paid the same whether a coin crosses or not. What incentive is there for them not to cross a coin that should cross?

Elcontador · February 2, 2007 12:53PM

Hey Longacre,

I'll bet you were one of those guys with a "bad attitude." You probably refused to change your vacation when after clearing the days with HR and paying for the airtickets, they scheduled you for an audit in the middle of it. I'll also bet you were one of those "young turks" who showed up at the office with a pastel colored -- not a white -- shirt! You also probably wore ties that weren't either blue or black.

foxxze · February 2, 2007 12:58PM

<< From a practical standpoint the graders get paid the same whether a coin crosses or not. What incentive is there for them not to cross a coin that should cross? >>

ANOTHER EXCELLENT POINT ! If no incentive to NOT cross a coin , and D.H. proding them TO cross a coin ;
you would think alot of them will be crossing !

Wolf359 · February 5, 2007 6:21AM

<< 

<< I have to think that the submitter of a coin for crossover is not going to waste their time and money to send in a coin they do not firmly believe has a chance of crossing .

Actually, it happens all the time. The price can double to quadruple in a PCGS holder at the same grade for rare dates. Or if the coin is a borderline cleaned, you leave it in the holder for crossing and don't crack. >>

..........SO YOU BELIEVE people send in coins all the time , for crossover , even though they believe the coin`s HAVEN`T A CHANCE of crossing - ?? >>

Of course not. Why are you acting stupid? Are you looking for an argument?

foxxze · February 5, 2007 7:10AM

<< I have to think that the submitter of a coin for crossover is not going to waste their time and money to send in a coin they do not firmly believe has a chance of crossing .

Actually, it happens all the time. The price can double to quadruple in a PCGS holder at the same grade for rare dates. Or if the coin is a borderline cleaned, you leave it in the holder for crossing and don't crack. >>

No , I am looking for clarification : what do you mean when you say it happens all the time ??

dwssws · February 5, 2007 9:09AM

<< PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

absolutely yes!

roadrunner · February 5, 2007 9:42AM

Anyone can pick an example or two or three, etc of coins that have crossed. Sometimes the coin that you think has no chance is the one that does. The actual pops have really nothing to do with how many coins cross each way. Why you would expect NGC war nickels in superb gem NOT to cross, you would expect PCGS specimens to cross to NGC. Yet the actual numbers are under 50% for both on average so politics is at play. There is no incentive for either to cross, buts lots of incentive to cross the PQ+ coins and ensure the total cross ratio stays WELL below 50%. It is impossible that both services cross legitimately yet each has cross rates under 50%.
Impossible. Hence the only conclusion is that they don't cross legitimately.

roadrunner

foxxze · February 5, 2007 10:18AM

"Sometimes the coin that you think has no chance is the one that does."

...AIN`T that the truth ! .thanks Roadrunner

Coxe · February 5, 2007 10:25AM

Still waiting for HRH to return and finish up.

Until then, my two cents -- which is worth approximately that. If a grader at a TPG used to be a grader at another TPG and gets a crossover slab from his era at the previous TPG, I would think learned consistency adds some likelihood of it making it on his watch unless there is a significant variance in standards -- especially with respect to low population rarities. That's one penny. My other cent is that toners, prooflikes and high step-up valuation coins will naturally be scrutinized for a crossover. Similar to grading a diamoond in its setting, there is a disadvantage in grading a coin in a holder and sticking to the cautious and conservative side may play more in a crossover than in a raw grade. HRH can tell me if I am completely full of it ..... or full of something that rhymes with "it" (and should perhaps be eBay's shtick instead of that idiotic "it" they use).

messydesk · February 5, 2007 10:51AM

<< PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

YES!PCGS has nothing to lose by doing this. Crossover attempts would probably even increase since instead of just a rubber-stamp rejection, the consumer would get an education, become more informed in the ways of PCGS, and be more likely to be able to pick coins in others' holders that would cross.

BAJJERFAN · February 5, 2007 11:14AM

<< PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

Yessiree, very much so.

Coxe · February 5, 2007 11:17AM

<< 

<< PS...We've kicked this idea around a lot...would you like to know the PCGS grade on a crossover attempt that didn't work and/or the reason(s) why it didn't work???? >>

YES!PCGS has nothing to lose by doing this. Crossover attempts would probably even increase since instead of just a rubber-stamp rejection, the consumer would get an education, become more informed in the ways of PCGS, and be more likely to be able to pick coins in others' holders that would cross. >>

Absolutely. The consumer is doing the hard work of locating the candidates, putting their hard cash at risk in buying them, and then paying for the service to get them in PCGS holders -- for their benefit and PCGS's.

Makes me think of the fools who pay to advertise for companies like Nike and Coca-Cola by not only buying and wearing their tee-shirts, but buying them at far more than the production and distribution cost. At least with PCGS coins, we realize an intrinsic benefit in crossing coins generally.

Wolf359 · February 5, 2007 12:23PM

<< 

<< I have to think that the submitter of a coin for crossover is not going to waste their time and money to send in a coin they do not firmly believe has a chance of crossing .

Actually, it happens all the time. The price can double to quadruple in a PCGS holder at the same grade for rare dates. Or if the coin is a borderline cleaned, you leave it in the holder for crossing and don't crack. >>

No , I am looking for clarification : what do you mean when you say it happens all the time ?? >>

Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Moving on.

foxxze · February 6, 2007 7:31AM

yes ; agree to move on :

"I doubt people submit coins that don`t have a chance.............................."
" happens all the time....................................."
"you really believe it happens all the time ........................? "
""of corse not ,why are you acting stupid ...................?
" just want clarification ..................................."
"self explanitory - moving on "
.

Are PCGS graders so fanatical about The Man™ that they might subliminally downgrade an NGC cross-ove

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