1913S T2 Buff... should I try for an upgrade??

Tonedbuff

I've long wondered if I should send this in for a review and upgrade, or crack out and send in for a better grade.
I'd love to hear what you think it grades. It is softly struck and has an interesting (but common) die clash under the chin. It resides in an NGC holder today, and I think they have been tough on it. The pics represent the coin extremely well.
Anyhow, I'd like to hear what grade you all think this coin may be and why, to help me decide if I should send it in.

ricko

Hard to say exactly from the small picture... but I would rate it MS60 - maybe 62. Cheers, RickO

guitarwes

Very nice Buff there Buff! Nice coloration, clash, and Great Date/MM.

As you have pointed out, yeah it's a bit softly struck, but hardly any distracting tics.

I'm guessing it's in a 63 holder now, soley based on the strike.

On a good day, maybe the lustre/colour would blind so much that they say 64, long shot 65........wes

Tonedbuff

Just to note the starting point: it is a 62 today. I feel that it should be a 63, maybe a 64 on a good day. No marks really, but the soft strike is distracting in a way. What I don't understand is the slider grade of 62. The coin has no signs of wear whatsoever... nor any really distracting marks of any sort, and generally good eye appeal and really nice luster.
Ricko, what would cause you to say 60? I've seen some really ugly 60's in my day, so I am wondering what you see?

guitarwes

That thang ain't beat up at all to warrant a 60. By no means.........

I'm confused about the 62 grade Buff, Unless it's just more softly struck than the pics point out.

Great coin!

ricko

I was looking at the wear on the Buffs shoulder... the lack of details in the feathers and wear in the hair. I may be wrong... Cheers, RickO

Tonedbuff

I've always thought it looks a bit better in hand than the pics if anything. The strike is soft, but I've seen buffs with much higher grades that are just as soft. I keep thinking a bad grade would be a 63 and a 64 is not unreasonable.
I'm really wondering... as there is a big bump in value for each grade on this coin.

guitarwes

I'm really wondering... as there is a big bump in value for each grade on this coin. >>




You got that right! For a peon like me, that's big change!!! One or two bumps would be awesome!

claychaser

Very pretty color on a real tough date. Anybody know how this date tends to run on strike quality?

Tonedbuff

As I recall (and anyone with better memory please correct me) strikes vary widely, with the weakness in the word Liberty being VERY common and reverse strikes ranging from very good to soft. This is not an unusual 1913S T2...

cape

63 on a good day. i feel the coin is to soft for anything higher, but who cares. the eye appeal is outstanding and will always bring you all the money down the road.

Tonedbuff

<< <i>I was looking at the wear on the Buffs shoulder... the lack of details in the feathers and wear in the hair. I may be wrong... Cheers, RickO >>



Well, that is the question, isn't it??? The 'muddy' appearance that a buff gets when the strike is incomplete looks a lot like wear, often creating a flat spot, or a 'ruddy' sort of area. So you have to look at all the other areas besides the high points where wear might not show if it is circulated, but breaks in luster would appear. In this case, there are no breaks in lulster anywhere on the coin, including the cheek, which is always a dead giveaway to me. My thought was the 62 grade represented a bit of a cop out, or a grader not familiar with what to do with a poorly struck buff...
It's always a matter of opinion, and clearly, I am biased. I have maintained from day one this is an MS64 coin... and still feel it is.

gyocomgd

As Shamika is often quick to remind us, MS62 is unique designation for this series. It means the graders feel the coin may have slight wear from circulation, but the other merits of the coin are so outstanding as to preclude them actually grading it AU. It's a market grade. The possible wear can't be overlooked, and it will be very difficult to get the coin upgraded. The eye appeal is tremendous, but with the soft strike/possible wear, you have your work cut out for you. I hate the MS62 grade, it haunts me. It always raises more questions than it answers.
Good luck though, Tonedbuff. It's worth a shot, and stranger things have happened.
Guy

Tonedbuff

<< <i>63 on a good day. i feel the coin is to soft for anything higher, but who cares. the eye appeal is outstanding and will always bring you all the money down the road. >>



Interesting... I've always been under the impression that strike does not come into play heavily until you get closer to 65... where a solid strike becomes one of the grading factors. In general with the graded buffs I've owned, I've seen soft strikes on many 63's and a few 64's.
I could buy 63 I suppose (heck, it would be great to not be stuck in the 62 slider zone), but still would not get a grade lower. 62 generally is purely a slider grade, and anything below that would indicate a coin with distracting marks, etc. The coin is tick free (virtually) and the strike is the only issue. So, how heavily should strike count against a coin? Would a coin that otherwise could be a 65 move down to a 63 due purely to strike? I've never really thought so before...

So, even looking at it as a 63, the question would be, would I be likely to recieve that grade on a review, or am I stuck in 62 land???

Tonedbuff

<< <i>As Shamika is often quick to remind us, MS62 is unique designation for this series. It means the graders feel the coin may have slight wear from circulation, but the other merits of the coin are so outstanding as to preclude them actually grading it AU. It's a market grade. The possible wear can't be overlooked, and it will be very difficult to get the coin upgraded. The eye appeal is tremendous, but with the soft strike/possible wear, you have your work cut out for you. I hate the MS62 grade, it haunts me. It always raises more questions than it answers.
Good luck though, Tonedbuff. It's worth a shot, and stranger things have happened.
Guy >>



Agreed, it is a market grade... and I hate it...
I suppose that the good news is that the coin is very PQ with phenominal eye appeal, and likely could sell for strong money... but I sure would like to move it out of slider hell.

Maybe SGS... I bet they could see the inner 67 of that coin...

gyocomgd

<< <i> So, even looking at it as a 63, the question would be, would I be likely to recieve that grade on a review, or am I stuck in 62 land??? >>



Based on the qualities you mention--color, eye appeal and tic-free surfaces, the coin is probably 64. But with that much flatness high on the hip, I personally think you're stuck. Of course, there's only one way to find out...

Shamika

<< <i> As Shamika is often quick to remind us, MS62 is unique designation for this series. It means the graders feel the coin may have slight wear from circulation, but the other merits of the coin are so outstanding as to preclude them actually grading it AU. It's a market grade. The possible wear can't be overlooked, and it will be very difficult to get the coin upgraded. >>


Well, Guy beat me to it. With that said, the coin is no better than an MS62 market grade although it might score big in a large auction where it's eye appeal might bump the hammer price to better than MS63 levels. 13-S T2's rarely have nice eye appeal from toning. Irregardless, if you do decide to resubmit, don't crack it out. Otherwise, it's possible that the coin might come back as low as AU55 if the graders are feeling especially harsh.

Tonedbuff

Yeah, I'd come to the realization that cracking out would not be good.
I dunno... might try for an upgrade once. I suppose it really depends on the mood of the grader and how and if they are swayed by eye appeal.

PonyExpress8

It seems the TPG's on tougher dates tend to be tougher on their grade at the price break point in my limited experience in upgrading. I had a Peace Dollar and a Morgan, that I not only thought was undergraded but 2 or 3 other very experienced folks felt the same way. Neither worked out so far, yet both coins are clearly the equel of 65's in common dates.

Solely based upon the photo I see, 63 with a shot 64. Many O mint Barber halves which I focus on have the same strike issue, which in a lot of cases keeps the coin out of 65 but does result in 64's.

If it were mine I would try it a time or two, and even if you can't get NGC or PCGS to agree I would never sell it for less than 63 money. The eye appeal is definitely great. Good luck.

Elcontador

The ones I've seen are well struck. Leave this one alone.

Newcomp103

It is a nice example of a 1913-S type 2, even with the soft strike...probably some of the prettiest toning I have seen...if you are wanting to sell it, I agree that you would easily get 63 money for it...don't get caught up in the holder...there are undergraded coins in slabs...in fact...I may get piled on for what I am about to say...but it may help you if you do decide to sell to crack it and leave it raw!




OMG....the "R" word!

Tonedbuff

I bought it raw! And have no problem putting it back that way. Holdered mostly to validate my expense and to protect the coin.

BUFFNIXX

I would leave it alone, it is a beautiful coin. I like the toning but you never know, if you crack it out they just might call the toning AT. Enjoy the coin and not the slab. BUFFNIXX

Petescorner

11 minutes for a "guess the grade"??? C'mon! We need more time than that!

Btw, I think 62 is right on the money. Still a tough coin and it's in great shape!