1818-The 19th informative picture thread covering the Capped Bust Half Series. Post your CBH's
CoinAddict
Posts: 5,571 ✭
This is the nineteenth in a series of informative picture threads covering the lettered edge capped Bust Half Dollars from 1807-36 in reverse year order. 1817 starts Sunday 12/21, 1816 starts Thurs. 12/24 and this pattern continues on down.
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
The rest of the series can be found here
1818
There are 12 obverse dies and 10 reverse dies that produced 15 marriages for the year. There are two very scarce varieties the O-110 and O-115.
Start posting them since I don't have any 1818s.
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
The rest of the series can be found here
1818
There are 12 obverse dies and 10 reverse dies that produced 15 marriages for the year. There are two very scarce varieties the O-110 and O-115.
Start posting them since I don't have any 1818s.
0
Comments
Coinaddict,I thoughtyou were gonna forget to start this year.Good job.
This is 1818 O-108,R1.Known as 'pincher 8's.Pretty obvious why they call it that.Rev 5 is slender and low.
Good thing you took it upon yourself to keep this series going.Thanks.
I was hoping someone stepped up to the plate and started this 1818 CBH thread. Good job!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some diagnostics for Large first 8 1818/17 O-101a R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. 181 wider than last 18. Centering dot on neck.
Reverse: Gap in dentils below 0. Late die state has crack through 50C, across olive leaves, and to UNI. Centering dot between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. Right sides of I and T in line.
I do not have an 18 to add, but maybe more people do.
If you have an 1818 please post it here so we can all see the diagnostics on an actual coin.
This is 106 after the remarriage...sadly I don't have an example of 106 prior to use on the 105 or a 105 from either side of the split.
<< <i>The same obverse die was used on both O-105 and 106. Both die marriages are known to occur both with and without the die crack through star 12 proving that even after splitting up partners sometimes remarry each other. >>
OKB,
If your source of this information is from Overton, it is the most curious faux pas of Don's career as a numismatic author. 106 was unquestionably struck first, and the latest state I found was one with a crack that traveled midway to the curls. There is an early state of 105 with the crack starting at the same point, and it eventually travels into the curls, with a second crack from star 12 that sweeps up, through the cap, and around to star 6, if memory serves.
A curious thing is that Don never mentions that the obverse die was severely lapped before 105 was struck, and it is the most severe lapping of any half dollar die that I am aware of. Why was the die lapped thusly? Did the diesinker get likkered up at lunch and just grind away til some stars were nearly obliterated? Had the die been damaged at some point after 106 was coined, necessitating such a severe lapping? We will never know for sure.
I wrote an article for JRJ on these two DMs a few years ago, along with pics of the various die states, and my opinions as to rarity of each.
Fascinating O-104. Do you see the distinct difference in the shape of the dentils to either side of the die break? Heavy and almost fused on the left yet smaller and more defined on the right. Slumlord, is the caused by a slight elevation change in the die at the point of the die break? The dentils are the same size/shape in earlier die states.
Some diagnostics for 1818 O-106a R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Die crack from rim through star 12.
Reverse: Triple dentil over R. Line 1 of stripe 5 extends upwards too far. Right side of I under left side of T. On this LDS, a crack shows above TED to top of STAT and to edge above T. (Reverse shared with O-110.)
<< <i>
<< <i>The same obverse die was used on both O-105 and 106. Both die marriages are known to occur both with and without the die crack through star 12 proving that even after splitting up partners sometimes remarry each other. >>
OKB,
If your source of this information is from Overton, it is the most curious faux pas of Don's career as a numismatic author. 106 was unquestionably struck first, and the latest state I found was one with a crack that traveled midway to the curls. There is an early state of 105 with the crack starting at the same point, and it eventually travels into the curls, with a second crack from star 12 that sweeps up, through the cap, and around to star 6, if memory serves.
A curious thing is that Don never mentions that the obverse die was severely lapped before 105 was struck, and it is the most severe lapping of any half dollar die that I am aware of. Why was the die lapped thusly? Did the diesinker get likkered up at lunch and just grind away til some stars were nearly obliterated? Had the die been damaged at some point after 106 was coined, necessitating such a severe lapping? We will never know for sure.
>>
My post was indeed based on Overton and I actually changed what I wrote prior to posting it. I originally listed it as "according to Overton" it was a remarriage, but that I had never seen (or heard of one in someone else's collection) a 105 "prime".
I then changed it before someone (you, in particular
Jim
I'd guess that the die split at this point, causing the one dentil to bulge and crowd the others to the left. It isn't unprecedented. I once owned an 1819 O.107 with a die crack so severe that the second 1 in the date was split with the base of the second 1 offset about 1mm. Literally, the lower serif was offset. Wish I'd saved an image of that one!
Some diagnostics for Small first 8 1818/7 O-102 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Second "8" is over a "7", and both "8's" are small.
Reverse: "AME" almost touch at bases, and "M" is lower at base. Second crossbar from top extends well into right wing. Right side of "I" is under left side of "T".
Some diagnostics for 1818 O-104a R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Date is low, first “8” leans to the right, and is lower than the adjacent “1’s” at top. This LDS shows a die crack from star 4 down across star 3, through bust where it divides up and down, then to rim left of date. Star 7 points to lower edge of dentil, and top of curl. This LDS also shows a heavy break at star 7 going down across cap. A VLDS exists with a crack from center of star 13, through stars on right, then to rim above cap.
Reverse: Die lump in field just below “RI”. Triple dentil just left of “5”. Arrowheads are close and connected by die defects. Right side of “I” is under left side of “T”. (Reverse is shared with O-103 & O-105.)
Some diagnostics for 1818 O-107 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Close date is low, and evenly spaced.
Reverse: Two tines project from eagle’s beak, upwards into field. First “T” in “STATES” is tipped left. Close low “50 C” has “0” higher, with “5” and “0” tipped towards each other at top. Right side of “I” is under left side of “T”.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Your 1818 O-106a has some gorgeous toning.
Obverse 7 - Stars are large and close to the milling, the first 1 is higher and wider than 818 and 81 is closest
Reverse G-s2 - the 5 and the 0 are as far apart as the OC, the N is higher than the U and I in UNITED, a die crack forms from the edge above TED STATE
Some diagnostics for Pincher 8’s 1818 O-108 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Both “8’s” have openings in their tops, resembling lobster pinchers.
Reverse: Low “50 C” has a slender “5”. There is a tiny triangle at the bottom of stripe 6. Top of “S” in scroll often filled. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line. (Reverse shared with O-115.)
Note: A major edge error exists on some specimens of this marriage. FIFTY CENTS OR, and HALF A DOLLAR, read upside down from each other.
Struck using obverse die 1-s2. Obverse die 1, used previously to strike O-101, was brought back into use. The die crack at star 11 is heavier.
This is the second use of reverse die C. This die was first used on the O-104 die marriage and later on the O-105 die marriage. There is a triple segment in the milling below the lowest pair of leaves and a small die dot in the field below RI. This is a constant for all three die marriages.
Not a great example of this late die state, but the best that I have.
There are 2 die cracks. The first is a fine vertical crack from the milling left of the date. The second runs from the bottom of the first 8 to the top of the second 8.
The cracks are so fine on this coin that you can only see the right half of the second die crack just to the left of the second 8 on this scan.
The O-112 die marriage was struck using obverse die 9 and reverse die I. This is the only use of these dies.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) On the obverse stars are large and close to milling
(2) The first 18 is wider than the second 18. The 81 is close
(3) On the reverse there is a die line from the base of I to the C in AMERICA
(4) Most, but not all, have a die crack from the edge below 50 C. to the top of UNI and to the milling above D.
Photos of the 1818 O-112, R1:
*******************
The later die states of the O-112 die marriage (O-112a) are rare.
The LDS has an obverse die crack that runs from the edge below the first 8 to the right stars, at star 8 it turns across the cap to star 6 and then to the edge.
The VLDS (very late die state) is rarer than the O-112a. The VLDS has an additional obverse die crack extending to all of the stars on the left.
I am showing the VLDS of this coin. It is complete with all of the die cracks as described in the O/P book. Part of the die crack is very difficult to see. So you will know where to look for the die cracks, I have marked them with obnoxious little red arrows.
Photos of the 1818 O-112a, R5:
Every time I look at the reverse all I see is the 100 year old dried bird dropings on the reverse---isn't that what those black spots are?
Seriously, I do not believe the reverse is doubled.
The reverse is so well struck (high profile) that what appears to be a doubling is simply the (slightly sloped) edge of the upper right wing, the arrowheads, etc.
...anyway, this is only my opinion.
I (and Speety) would really like comments and opinions from others on this.
O-112
This die marriage was struck using obverse die 10, this was the only use of this die. The reverse die was rev. die J, which was also used immediately after striking O-113 to strike O-114.
Quick identifiers:
For the obverse there are no quick identifiers. You can always check the star to dentil relationships and etc. as found in the O/P book. There is a die crack across the cap, but other 1818 die marriages have this too.
For the reverse: (Remember O-114 shares the same reverse.)
(1) Look at TES. The E will be considerably higher than the T and the S.
(2) Then turn the coin over and look at the obverse. The O-114 has a recut lower-outer point of star 1. The O-113 does not. (Be careful, the recutting at star 1 may be very hard to see on very late die state of the O-114.)
NOTE: There is a Late Die State of the O-113 where there is a die crack from the rim to star 2 to star 1 to the bust, above first 8 to the last 8. My coin is NOT this LDS.
Photos of the 1818 O-113, R3:
Slumlord posted his terminal die state 1818 O-104a on page 1 of this Forum. ...and I have always agreed with his statement that less than half a dozen of these Very Late Die States are known to exist in all grades.
(Unfortunately Slumlord's photos are not appearing on my computer. All I get is a little white box with a red X inside.)
JRocco posted his absolutely beautiful photos of his terminal die state 1818 O-104a.
Mozin posted his O-104a and mentions that a few of the O-104a's have a die break through the right stars. Mozin does not tell us his coin has the right star die cracks, or not. (I cannot tell in the photo.)
Herrman in his AMBPR shows only 2 auction/sales records for this VLDS. Herriman calls it the O-104'b' and states that it is probably a R7 die state. This R7 designation supports Slumlord's comment that only a "half dozen" exist (or less).
I would like to think that there are only 6 specimens in existence. ...but I suspect more are out there. Why do I suspect this?
Because I have one of these VLDS too! With Sumlord's and JRocco's and now mine, this would be HALF of known specimens. Really?
Photos of my 1818 O-104'b', R7(?):
My take is that the VLDS is no more than R6, meaning 13 or more specimens exist. My reasoning is, that out of the three or four hundred O-104a models, a significant number will turn out to be the full O-104b model. The existence of the b model is simply not yet known to many collectors. When they hear about it, they will examine their a models, and find some of them are full b models.
Edgar
O-104a with cracks.
Edgar
Some diagnostics for 1818 O-109 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Dr. Peterson refers to too high “1’s” as “jumping 1’s”. “81” is close. (Obverse shared with O-110.)
Reverse: “N” is higher than both “U” and “I”. “0” is spaced nearly midway between “5” and “C”. Right side of “I” is under left side of “T”.
Struck using Obverse die 8 and Reverse die H. This was the only use of these dies.
Quick identifiers are:
(1) Small spike at the top of the cap.
(2) The second 1 is not only slimmer than the first 1, but lower than the other figures.
(3) Right side of D-E are line.
Photos of the 1818 O-111, R1:
My EDS O-115, R5 Proof-like with a hairline short die crack may be rarer, but my O-115a with its glorious sexy die cracks is by far the prettiest of the two.
Photos of my lower grade 1818 O-115a, R4+:
Some diagnostics for 1818 O-114a R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil, and it is recut at its two lower points. Date is low, 81 is close, and first 8 shows recutting at lower left. On this LDS, there is a crack from lower curl curving to edge between stars 11 & 12. Another crack curves from the edge above star 7, across peak of cap, through all stars down to first crack.
Reverse: On this LDS, the clump of dots between E and D in UNITED does not show. Stand of E in scroll is centered under D. E is higher than adjacent T and S. A is higher than M at base. Arrowheads are close, and connected by die defects. On this LDS, a crack starts below 50, arrowheads, and into CA. Left side of I under right side of T. (Reverse is LDS of O-113.)
Some diagnostics for 1818 O-110 R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Dr. Peterson refers to too high 1s as jumping 1s. 81 is close. (Obverse shared with O-109.)
Reverse: Triple dentil over R. Line 1 of stripe 5 extends upwards too far. Right side of I is under left side of T. (Reverse shared with O-106.)
This is the same as the 1818 O-102 except there is a die break in the upper loop of the second 8 almost filling it.
Photos of the 1818 O-102a, R2:
Here is another missing die MARRIAGE, the 1818 O-105 die marriage. The EDS, which is a R3, and the LDS, which is a R4.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 4. This was the second and last use of this die. It was used immediately prior to strike the O-106, R3.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die C. This was the third and last use of this die. It was used earlier in the calendar year 1818 to strike the O-104 and then the O-103.
The quick identifiers of this die marriage are on the reverse. Obviously the O-103 and O-104 have the same identifiers:
(1) There is a triple segment in the milling below the lowest pair of leaves.
(2) There is a small die dot in the field below the RI
Also on the obverse: (1) This die marriage, like the O-106, has most specimens a not well struck; (2) The stars on the left have points of varying lengths; and (3) MOST specimens have a die crack from the edge through the upper points of start 12 into the field.
I have marked the die crack at star 12 with GREEN ARROWS. As you can see on the O-105 it stops in the field between star 12 and the upper curls just below the ribbon ends. In the LDS of this coin, an additional die crack appears.
First, photos of my 1818 O-105, R3:
*****************
On the Late Die State of this coin you can see where the die crack at star 12 now extends to the upper curls. (Green Arrows)
In ADDITION, a second die crack appears off of the first die crack. This die crack curves up through star11, across points of star 10 to cap and headband at LI of LIBERTY. (Red Arrows)
Photos of my 1818 O-105a, R4:
late 104
That's a SUPER "a" model with HDC.
Wouldn't this "die chip" now be a cud formation?
The same as through Star 7 to the Cap.
That would be an amazing collection, if someone were to collect the very last die state of each marriage!
Or the terminal state of each die that broke down.
Thanks for link.
Mike
A cud is different from a die chip, although the end result is the same. A cud is formed when a rim to rim die crack occurs. The edge of the die can eventually break away leaving a raised blank area on the coin. A die chip can form anywhere else on the coin. This is different from spalling which is caused when an area of the die is overhardened and gives way. See 1801 O.101 in your Overton for an example of spalling.
There are no cuds on CBHs due to how the dies were made. There are many cuds found on DBHs also due to how the dies were made. Fever has some excellent images of early federal dies and can add much more to the discussion.
Die chips on CBHs are most commonly found on letters where the chip fills in a part of the letter. The most common is found on R (AMERICA) on the outer crotch. 1822 O.109 is one that most are familiar with, although late states of most die marriages from 1820 onward can display them. N and S also are seen with die chips as are the As in 1828-1830. Other chips are seen on the nose bridge (1814 O.107), in the serif of 1 (same DM), around stars 1-3 on 1807 O.113. Name some other die marriages that are known chipped!
For clarifying that.
"...Some of the other known chiped die marriages"
1808 O-102 is a large version of this in it's "a" model.
It is rather hidden in the hair curls and easily missed!
The 1808 O-109a at a time before the formation of a chip.
Since I do, as Mozin puts it "specialize" in the 1827 marriages, there are a couple there that aren't
recorded.
As in the filling of the last stripe's lower corner, in the shield.
Or the filling in on the upper serif of "S" in the Motto.
Correct me if I'm wrong, the change in the dies from DB to CB were in tapering the die to the coin design .
That corrected the cud formation problem at the edge.
But it seems to show, with all the major die cracks in the early Capped Bust years, that the over hardening problem still existed.
Then further experiments, in my mind led to hard edges and soft centers of the teen years.
Which leads me to two of my favorite marriages in 1813 O-107a & 1814 O-106a.
Thanks Slumlord98 !
Mike
I went back to the 1808 thread and provided some much larger pictures. The triangular die chip you mentioned on the 1808 O-102a is now very obvious in my scan. I was unaware this chip was present in the 1808 O-102a. Neat stuff!
This die state is identical to the O-106 except for a reverse die crack from above TED to top of STAT and to edge above T. (red arrows on my coin)
Photos of the 1818 O-106a, R3:
...so here is my 1818 O-104, R4 with the triple segment in the milling below the lowest pair of leaves and the small die dot in the field below RI of AMERICA:
Following are the photos of my O-101 Intermediate Die State which I am not sure qualifies as one of the "missing die states." I also have my O-101a set piece, which I am not posting here.
Per the O/P book there are no die cracks on the O-101.
Per the O/P book there are two die cracks on the O-101a. The O-101a's die cracks are:
(1) On the obverse there is a fine die crack from edge through star 11 to curls on most specimens. (Remember the word "most.")
(2) On the reverse there is a die crack through 50 C. across olive leaves and to UNI.
On the coin I am posting here, you have the obverse die crack, but there is no reverse die crack. I have it in my collection as an O-101a obv/O-101 rev.
SIDE NOTE: This coin is an example of some of the inconsistencies that "drive me crazy" in the O/P book. As I interpret the die crack descriptions above, I understand them to read: (1) Most O-101a's have both die cracks and (2) Some O-101a's have no obverse die cracks, but all still have a reverse die crack. This is the complete reversal of what my coin is. i.e., with the obverse die crack and no reverse die crack. If someone has an explanation for this please explain. Thank you.
Photos of my 1818/17 "O-101a/O-101," R1: