It's simply an inspiration to see the pages from your collection that you are starting to post. I've often wondered how someone with an advanced capped bust half collection would store them. To be able to see them next to one another, sometimes progressing through die states, is a great way to enjoy and study them. I also like seeing just a portion of an impressive collection that must have been a labor of love for years.
Currently mine are just about filling two Intercept Shield 2X2 boxes - at times I'll spread them all out in order on a table just to take them all in and marvel at how much variety of appearance, toning, etc. pops out at you when you do that. My kids love it - they'll point at their favorites.
For a collector like myself, one who rarely gets to a good coin show, the internet and this board has been a great way to find examples of how to go about the hobby. Thanks for all that you're doing for the rest of us!
I was trying to space out my postings - a little here and a little there.
...but tonight I got bored and I couldn't find much as far as new postings on this forum and the one across the street.
After searching eBay for another darn 1812 Single Leaf (I couldn't find one. 'cause you got the last one, you Lucky Bunny!!!) I said: "What the Heck" and made a couple of CU Forum postings. (If I get bored much more, I'll be doing posting across the street too.)
Should you ever decide to go the Dansco route with your coins, PM me. It takes requires a learning curve and perhaps I can save you some time, money, and frustration. You also need to do it in such a way to protect the coins.
Great seeing your set. Beautiful pieces - ALL. I know the labor of love that you went through in picking nice examples for your set. And I know the study and hours upon hours that were involved. It shows.
For lovers of the Capped Bust Half Dollar series - it's like being a kid in a GIANT candy store. With so many nice pieces of "candy" that you just can't decide which one is your favorite. Thanks for posting.
Ed It would really be hard to TOP the last two compliments, truely! Outstanding!... Your diligents has paid off. Your collection is probably the most publicized collection on the internet!!! In completeness and condition and will be viewed for a long while! Thanks for your dedication and willingness to share what you have learned. Does the word MENTOR come to mind???? But there are others too, that is why a collecting community thrives! Sharing of knowledge, friendships and the Love of Bust half dollars, need I say more!
<< <i>Zap: After searching eBay for another darn 1812 Single Leaf (I couldn't find one. 'cause you got the last one, you Lucky Bunny!!!) I said: "What the Heck" and made a couple of CU Forum postings. (If I get bored much more, I'll be doing posting across the street too.) >>
You weren't the only one.
Their willingness to teach and the many posts like these by Ed, Fever, Someguyfrommichigan, Mozin, OK, Slumlord, JRocco, and many more i'm sure i forgot are the reason that this CBH series of threads and the CU Board in general are so great. Thanks!
Mark
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
Yea yea yea....I searched the Internet for another 1812 single leaf also.....
Ed, what can I say that hasn't been said.... Just awesome.
Hey here is one that I would like to hear all your comments about ( I bet that got your attention Ed ) This looks to be an 1818 O-105 intermediate die state. The die crack at star 12 is bold and extends through the field and into the curls as seen in the O-105a, but the second diagnostic crack through star 11, across 10 and into the cap is not there. But in its place is a really bold clash. This clash is so strong that at the right angles you can see some feathers in the obverse wing clash. Look at the arrows at the back of the cap and the leaves/stems and tail feathers at her forehead, as well as a strong wing impression coming right out of her mouth into the field. Is this strong clash seen on the O-105a? I can see an impression of the clash on your 105a Ed, is it this strong also? Does the clash obliterate an of the crack seen from star 10 to the cap? Is this an intermediate die state? I love the varying lengths of the left star points also.
The 1818 O-105, R3 (per the O/P book, if the book is totally correct) calls for the one die crack at Star 12. Your coin has this one die crack and no additional die cracks, so I would NOT call it an Intermediate Die State.
The O-105 was struck using Obverse Die 4. This was the second use of this die. The die was first used to strike the O-106 (which can be found with and without the die crack at star 12, per the O/P book).
The clash marks are just as bold on my O-105a (they just don't scan well on my scanner), but the clash marks are not present on my O-105.
This leads me to believe that things happened in this order:
(1) The O-105 was being struck the die crack at star 12. In the beginning of usage the dies had not yet clashed. (2) Sometime during the striking of the O-105 the dies clashed. (3) After the dies clashed they were kept in production on the screw press continuing to strike the O-105. (4) Next, the obverse die starts to break up. Resulting in striking the O-105a with ALL of the diagnostic die cracks and the clashing seen.
Obvious questions:
(a) Can an IDS coin be found (with one or part of one or two of the diagnostic die cracks) AND no clash marks? (b) Has a LDS O-106a (with all of the diagnostic die cracks) been seen without the clash marks?
It appears that my O-105 was struck before your O-105.
You also asked if the die clash behind the portrait "obliterates any of the crack seen from star 10 to the cap." No. The die crack is clearly seen running between the clash and star 9. But the two (the clash and the crack) intersect about 1 to 2 mm to the right of the cap where the die crack runs into the cap. On my coin, at the point where the clash and crack intersect, there appears to be either a chip missing from the field caused by the two coming together OR the coin just coincidentally happens to have a ding at that spot.
Again, I would NOT call your coin an Intermediate Die State.
EDITED TO ADD: I know that there was some switching of the obverse and reverse dies back and forth during the striking of the O-106 and then the O-105. This is evident if you carefully read in the O/P book the diagnostics of the 4 listed die states: O-105, O-105a, O-106, and O-106a. I have never really understood what happened. Hopefully Slumlord and FEVER will read both our postings and report back.
Hey Ed, Thank you for the very descriptive explanation of the difference between the O-105 and 105a die states. The main reason for my question was the fact that the O/P book states the O-105 has the die crack at star 12 ending in the field and the O-105a having the crack now extending to the curls. Without having seen the 2 die states in hand I wasn't sure, but you cleared it right up Ed.
Please... Please ... Give us a heads up when you will be selling this MONSTER SET because there are quite a few of your coins that I am eyeballing. Once again-Thanks Ed.
I studied this DM along w/106 and wrote an article in JRJ a few years ago. edmerlr has the sequence down. 106 was struck first and the crack thru star 12 extended into the middle of the field. For whatever reason, the obverse was severely polished, removing a good portion of stars 3-5. This is a great mytery to me as this is the most severely lapped obverse die in the entire CBH series, yet merited no mention in Overton. Why was it lapped so heavily? Was it done right after rum break? Did someone get distracted by a cute woman walking by and he kept his hand in motion but didn't follow what was happening to the die? Anyway, early 105s exhibit this crack traveling about halfway to the curls, but in the latest state on high grade coins it can be seen touching the curls. The clash appeared fairly early (not many 105s are absent this clash) in the production run, and after that the next crack appeared rising up from the first crack close to the clash mark (but never obliterated by the clash) to the cap and eventually across the cap and down thru the stars at right. I think. At the Logan sale, a BHNC member showed me a wonderful high grade 105 with this crack traveling farther than I saw before or since, but don't remember the path of the crack after it emerged from the left side of the cap. I once owned a coin w/the crack just reaching the right side of the cap. Coins with this second crack are pretty scarce.
<< <i>(b) Has a LDS O-106a (with all of the diagnostic die cracks) been seen without the clash marks? >>
Ed, did you mean 105? You know I eschew using Overton's "a", "b", etc., as they can be vague and contradictory.
The real mystery to me always was- does a 106 exist with severe die lapping or does a 105 exist without lapping? Also, why was this die lapped so severely???
No, I meant to ask: "Has a LDS O-106a (with all of the diagnostic die cracks) been seen without the clash marks?" (I meant O-106a, not 105a)
I expect the answer to be "No," but, I think what was in the back of my pea brain, was that if the dies were switched back and forth, it might be possible.
...and you stated: "...early 105s exhibit this crack traveling about halfway to the curls." On my O-105 that has no clash marks the die crack at star 12 cannot be seen with the naked eye. With a 10x loupe this crack is a very faint hairline die crack that stops about 3 to 4 mm from the curls. Does this mean that I have an EDS example?
And by-the-way the die crack on my O-105a running left thru the cap stops halfway between the L in LIBERTY and the edge of the headband.
If you have a 106 with clashmarks, that would be something! There should be no 106s that exhibit clash marks.
Edited to add- the second crack on 105 was traveling pretty fast, probably moving slightly with each coin struck. This is one of those cracks that has many coins each showing a slightly different progression. Some cracks progressed all at once (or nearly so) and surviving coins can be easily separated into before and after, some advanced at different rates like this one, leaving many intermediate states.
I did a little study of my files on this mystery too. I used a couple of pictures in my reference library, the Russs Logan Sale, the past couple Downey sales and members of this forum's postings.
So Downey's MB33 Lot 25 O-106a Russ Logan Sale Lot 2344 O-105 Russ Logan Sale Lot 2345 O-106a Ed's posted O-105 and O-105a JRocco's O-105 Coinlieutenant's O-106a Mozin's O-106 OKbustchaser's O-106a
O-106 was the first use of Obv. 4 being mated to Rev. D first. Overton stated that this exists with and without the die crack at star 12. It also exists with full star points on 3, 4 & 5. Going through the above mention examples I put a (aka.) timeline of what I observed.
O-106.
O-106a, the Logan coin, has full left stars, die crack on reverse.
O-106a, clashed, but still exists with full star points.
O-106a, was lapped, evidence the Downey coin which shows a ghost of the clash, shortened lower left star points on 4 & 5. Rounded inside points on 9, 10 & 11, you can see where the die crack at star 12 was lapped over, The outline of the wing along the left field, on the reverse a tell tale extending from the left wing of the obverse clash.
O-106a, is lapped again, maybe for routine lapping star points shorten more.
O-105, reverse (now Rev. C) changed out probably replaced the now damaged Rev D. The Logan coin is an EDS with no breaks or die clash, star 5 has a short point.
Somewhere in between the die clashed again.
O-105, Ed's O-105 shows the extent of the die clash and it looks to have been a pretty hard hit, as evident in the ridge the was formed at the top of the right wing on the reverse. JRocco's IDS shows a close-up of the field damage on the right side.
O-105a, Also to consider... in the edge order of Leaman - Gunnet the new edge die 6 is put into service, this new annealed edge created an additional stress to this damaged obverse die, and as Slumlord stated the deterioration " it happened very quickly". So, what the next hundred or so coins were struck before this obverse went terminal?
To add somemore mystery here...the footnote of the new obverse dies from the third master die is in play. So O-104, 105 & 106 constitute an new beginning.
Now I know measuring tools of the time weren't near as precise as today s multi-millionths of an inch. So possibly these dies were minutely smaller and that the striking problems were the result of that. Remember these dies were turned down on a mechanical device that was controlled by a man with the modern equipment of the time, we often think in modern times and of the everyday things that are around, but weren't thought of back then. So all that could have lead to the inconsistencies in the die's diameter, or the spacing of the last edge, which it didn't allow enough pressure to force the metal into the coins higher recesses. Adding more fuel to the fire ! Mike
Slumlord, I've put together some pictures here. Studying this one coin, Lot 25 Downey's MB33, (then comparing to the others where I could ) which I believe shows the evidence of die clash and the resulting lapping. The odd loss of star points on this die may have been due to point fracture of the left side stars. With the edge area brittle, is it possible for the die to chip in a fishscale type chip. It would be similar to those the happen on the edge of glass.
This first picture shows fracture across the left star points. The other thing I found was the 0 (zero) of 50 C. above the cap, you can see the inside loop.
The next picture is the die crack at Star 12, notice the skips between the crack line. Die lapping.
Here is the Obverse first overlay. Notice how the letters contact the star points, then relate that with the close-up of the star points.
Now Reverse D, this had many more points than the Obverse.
First the reverse first overlay.
This next picture shows the many edge trace spots that were located on this reverse, one that really stands out is the one one the end of the Eagle's beak! Comparing this state to that of Coinlieutenant's O-106a , on page 2. I've added it here to compare also.
So maybe one reason this hasn't been seen or recognized as this may have been clashed and the lapping really wasn't that heavy. As the striking continued, it became time to have the dies lapped again. This is where the little fractures at the edge of the stars came out, then the heavy left edge work was done around the stars. So soon after this, the reverse could have failed because the abnormal surface of the left side of the obverse die as it corresponds to the existing edge crack of the reverse. Like you said "...This is a great mystery to me as this is the most severely lapped obverse die in the entire CBH series ! , yet merited no mention in Overton." Mike
<< <i>So soon after this, the reverse could have failed because the abnormal surface of the left side of the obverse die as it corresponds to the existing edge crack of the reverse. >>
The reverse was used again on O.110.
O-105, reverse (now Rev. C) changed out probably replaced the now damaged Rev D. The Logan coin is an EDS with no breaks or die clash, star 5 has a short point.
The Logan coin does have the crack at star 12. That it is double struck makes it difficult to see the crack. I remember examining this coin at length. Also, you can see the second crack exiting the left side of the cap and it travels across to the dge at left, making this one of the latest states possible, also had to have the heavy clash, again shrouded by the second strike.
Edited to add- if it didn't have any obverse cracks, it would be proof of a remarriage. Russ would not have missed this, and would have written it up in JRJ.
Thanks zap1111, This is one of the reasons the Bust half collecting is so interesting!
Slumlord, in response.
I said << So soon after this, the reverse could have failed because the abnormal surface of the left side of the obverse die as it corresponds to the existing edge crack of the reverse. >>
The reverse was used again on O.110.
O-105, reverse (now Rev. C) changed out probably replaced the now damaged Rev D. The Logan coin is an EDS with no breaks or die clash, star 5 has a short point.
Re:<< The Logan coin does have the crack at star 12. That it is double struck makes it difficult to see the crack. I remember examining this coin at length. Also, you can see the second crack exiting the left side of the cap and it travels across to the edge at left, making this one of the latest states possible, also had to have the heavy clash, again shrouded by the second strike.
Edited to add- if it didn't have any obverse cracks, it would be proof of a remarriage. Russ would not have missed this, and would have written it up in JRJ. >>
So Rev. D was shelved til a later time, which I missed and a note made.
So B&M mis-attributed the coin, so with the die crack exiting the cap wouldn't this be a O-105a then? The Logan coin looks later than Edmerlr's coin, with the crack exiting the cap on the left side.
Then back to my last post, what about the possibilty of the die cracking like I asked about? Where the die clash fractured the obverse's surface at the star points, already brittle from the die-sinking. Plus, I don't think this was a case of re-marriage, just regular productions problems the plagued the Mint's coinage production.
Ed does your O-105a show a die crack left of the 1 that runs to the drapery, follows the edge of it and runs to the folds on the left or is that just a contact mark?
Looking at coins this early on a Saturday morning?
Why aren't you guys in Michigan out on your tractor/4 wheeled lawn mowers mowing your 1+ acre lots before it gets too hot in the day?
(In my California suburbia home - where I have a lawn half the size of a volleyball court - I hire a gardener to help out the economy.)
Ooooops! Off the subject.
Checking the "line" on my 1818 O-105a to the left of the first 1, I believe it to be a hairline die crack - and NOT a contact mark or scratch. ...but to be completely honest, I am NOT 100% sure that it is a die crack or something else.
I know this is no help, but I do not have a 30x to use for a better look-see. That's my excuse and I am sticking with it.
Ed you don't have to make a pun towards "Rural America". I have to trim the path to the outhouse, Damn Volleyball net. It is quite "Cool" here this morning, it was sweatshirt weather, then I had to go out and swat the rooster. His alarm clock is off, he must be feeling the time change coming on. Who uses 30 power, a good 10 power loupe and sunlight definitely works the best. If you have a pocket 30 power, you need to get a stereo microscope. Maybe then you wouldn't have to scan Dansco pages ....yawn!
Love the 115a's! Jaypem wondered in another thread "why no cuds with CBH's?". Cuds may be scarce but die breaks certainly aren't. And the 115a is a great example.
Here are a few more 1818's for this thread. 107 ("the slanted T"), 102 (an EDS 1818/7 small 8), 102a (partly filled upper loop of the 8), 103 (1818/7 large 8). Lance.
Comments
What a beautiful O-101 IDS! Just outstanding! (Did I mention that I have a birthday coming up!!!!).
Edgar
The Early Die State of this die marriage is always seen with a die crack to the right of the date.
My O-115 has a faint hairline die crack that runs parallel to the 8. The crack stops at point right at the top of the 8.
Photos of my 1818 O-115, R5:
Here's some 1818's on these pages:
It's simply an inspiration to see the pages from your collection that you are starting to post. I've often wondered how someone with an advanced capped bust half collection would store them. To be able to see them next to one another, sometimes progressing through die states, is a great way to enjoy and study them. I also like seeing just a portion of an impressive collection that must have been a labor of love for years.
Currently mine are just about filling two Intercept Shield 2X2 boxes - at times I'll spread them all out in order on a table just to take them all in and marvel at how much variety of appearance, toning, etc. pops out at you when you do that. My kids love it - they'll point at their favorites.
For a collector like myself, one who rarely gets to a good coin show, the internet and this board has been a great way to find examples of how to go about the hobby. Thanks for all that you're doing for the rest of us!
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
Thank you for your comments.
I was trying to space out my postings - a little here and a little there.
...but tonight I got bored and I couldn't find much as far as new postings on this forum and the one across the street.
After searching eBay for another darn 1812 Single Leaf (I couldn't find one. 'cause you got the last one, you Lucky Bunny!!!) I said: "What the Heck" and made a couple of CU Forum postings. (If I get bored much more, I'll be doing posting across the street too.)
Should you ever decide to go the Dansco route with your coins, PM me. It takes requires a learning curve and perhaps I can save you some time, money, and frustration. You also need to do it in such a way to protect the coins.
Regards,
Ed R. aka edmerlr
Great seeing your set. Beautiful pieces - ALL. I know the labor of love that you went through in picking nice examples for your set. And I know the study and hours upon hours that were involved. It shows.
For lovers of the Capped Bust Half Dollar series - it's like being a kid in a GIANT candy store. With so many nice pieces of "candy" that you just can't decide which one is your favorite. Thanks for posting.
Edgar
It would really be hard to TOP the last two compliments, truely!
Outstanding!...
Your diligents has paid off.
Your collection is probably the most publicized collection on the internet!!!
In completeness and condition and will be viewed for a long while!
Thanks for your dedication and willingness to share what you have learned.
Does the word MENTOR come to mind????
But there are others too, that is why a collecting community thrives!
Sharing of knowledge, friendships and the Love of Bust half dollars, need I say more!
Thanks Ed
Mike
<< <i>Zap:
After searching eBay for another darn 1812 Single Leaf (I couldn't find one. 'cause you got the last one, you Lucky Bunny!!!) I said: "What the Heck" and made a couple of CU Forum postings. (If I get bored much more, I'll be doing posting across the street too.)
>>
You weren't the only one.
Their willingness to teach and the many posts like these by Ed, Fever, Someguyfrommichigan, Mozin, OK, Slumlord, JRocco, and many more i'm sure i forgot are the reason that this CBH series of threads and the CU Board in general are so great. Thanks!
Mark
Ed, what can I say that hasn't been said....
Just awesome.
Hey here is one that I would like to hear all your comments about ( I bet that got your attention Ed
This looks to be an 1818 O-105 intermediate die state.
The die crack at star 12 is bold and extends through the field and into the curls as seen in the O-105a, but the second diagnostic crack through star 11, across 10 and into the cap is not there. But in its place is a really bold clash. This clash is so strong that at the right angles you can see some feathers in the obverse wing clash. Look at the arrows at the back of the cap and the leaves/stems and tail feathers at her forehead, as well as a strong wing impression coming right out of her mouth into the field.
Is this strong clash seen on the O-105a? I can see an impression of the clash on your 105a Ed, is it this strong also? Does the clash obliterate an of the crack seen from star 10 to the cap?
Is this an intermediate die state?
I love the varying lengths of the left star points also.
...nice presentation.
The 1818 O-105, R3 (per the O/P book, if the book is totally correct) calls for the one die crack at Star 12. Your coin has this one die crack and no additional die cracks, so I would NOT call it an Intermediate Die State.
The O-105 was struck using Obverse Die 4. This was the second use of this die. The die was first used to strike the O-106 (which can be found with and without the die crack at star 12, per the O/P book).
The clash marks are just as bold on my O-105a (they just don't scan well on my scanner), but the clash marks are not present on my O-105.
This leads me to believe that things happened in this order:
(1) The O-105 was being struck the die crack at star 12. In the beginning of usage the dies had not yet clashed.
(2) Sometime during the striking of the O-105 the dies clashed.
(3) After the dies clashed they were kept in production on the screw press continuing to strike the O-105.
(4) Next, the obverse die starts to break up. Resulting in striking the O-105a with ALL of the diagnostic die cracks and the clashing seen.
Obvious questions:
(a) Can an IDS coin be found (with one or part of one or two of the diagnostic die cracks) AND no clash marks?
(b) Has a LDS O-106a (with all of the diagnostic die cracks) been seen without the clash marks?
It appears that my O-105 was struck before your O-105.
You also asked if the die clash behind the portrait "obliterates any of the crack seen from star 10 to the cap." No. The die crack is clearly seen running between the clash and star 9. But the two (the clash and the crack) intersect about 1 to 2 mm to the right of the cap where the die crack runs into the cap. On my coin, at the point where the clash and crack intersect, there appears to be either a chip missing from the field caused by the two coming together OR the coin just coincidentally happens to have a ding at that spot.
Again, I would NOT call your coin an Intermediate Die State.
EDITED TO ADD: I know that there was some switching of the obverse and reverse dies back and forth during the striking of the O-106 and then the O-105. This is evident if you carefully read in the O/P book the diagnostics of the 4 listed die states: O-105, O-105a, O-106, and O-106a. I have never really understood what happened. Hopefully Slumlord and FEVER will read both our postings and report back.
Regards,
Ed R.
Thank you for the very descriptive explanation of the difference between the O-105 and 105a die states.
The main reason for my question was the fact that the O/P book states the O-105 has the die crack at star 12 ending in the field and the O-105a having the crack now extending to the curls. Without having seen the 2 die states in hand I wasn't sure, but you cleared it right up Ed.
Please...
Please ...
Give us a heads up when you will be selling this MONSTER SET because there are quite a few of your coins that I am eyeballing.
Once again-Thanks Ed.
and *I'm* still lookin' for another 1812 single leaf!
The first one is now in hand. I'll post some images soon on the 1812 thread.
zap
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
<< <i>(b) Has a LDS O-106a (with all of the diagnostic die cracks) been seen without the clash marks? >>
Ed, did you mean 105? You know I eschew using Overton's "a", "b", etc., as they can be vague and contradictory.
The real mystery to me always was- does a 106 exist with severe die lapping or does a 105 exist without lapping? Also, why was this die lapped so severely???
No, I meant to ask: "Has a LDS O-106a (with all of the diagnostic die cracks) been seen without the clash marks?" (I meant O-106a, not 105a)
I expect the answer to be "No," but, I think what was in the back of my pea brain, was that if the dies were switched back and forth, it might be possible.
...and you stated: "...early 105s exhibit this crack traveling about halfway to the curls." On my O-105 that has no clash marks the die crack at star 12 cannot be seen with the naked eye. With a 10x loupe this crack is a very faint hairline die crack that stops about 3 to 4 mm from the curls. Does this mean that I have an EDS example?
And by-the-way the die crack on my O-105a running left thru the cap stops halfway between the L in LIBERTY and the edge of the headband.
Thank you so much for your comments.
Ed
If you have a 106 with clashmarks, that would be something! There should be no 106s that exhibit clash marks.
Edited to add- the second crack on 105 was traveling pretty fast, probably moving slightly with each coin struck. This is one of those cracks that has many coins each showing a slightly different progression. Some cracks progressed all at once (or nearly so) and surviving coins can be easily separated into before and after, some advanced at different rates like this one, leaving many intermediate states.
Thank you both.
I used a couple of pictures in my reference library, the Russs Logan Sale,
the past couple Downey sales and members of this forum's postings.
So Downey's MB33 Lot 25 O-106a
Russ Logan Sale Lot 2344 O-105
Russ Logan Sale Lot 2345 O-106a
Ed's posted O-105 and O-105a
JRocco's O-105
Coinlieutenant's O-106a
Mozin's O-106
OKbustchaser's O-106a
O-106 was the first use of Obv. 4 being mated to Rev. D first.
Overton stated that this exists with and without the die crack at star 12.
It also exists with full star points on 3, 4 & 5.
Going through the above mention examples I put a (aka.) timeline of what I observed.
O-106.
O-106a, the Logan coin, has full left stars, die crack on reverse.
O-106a, clashed, but still exists with full star points.
O-106a, was lapped, evidence the Downey coin which shows a ghost of the clash, shortened
lower left star points on 4 & 5.
Rounded inside points on 9, 10 & 11, you can see where the die crack at star 12 was lapped over,
The outline of the wing along the left field, on the reverse a tell tale extending from the left wing of the obverse clash.
O-106a, is lapped again, maybe for routine lapping star points shorten more.
O-105, reverse (now Rev. C) changed out probably replaced the now damaged Rev D.
The Logan coin is an EDS with no breaks or die clash, star 5 has a short point.
Somewhere in between the die clashed again.
O-105, Ed's O-105 shows the extent of the die clash and it looks to have been a pretty hard hit, as evident in the ridge the was formed at the top of the right wing on the reverse.
JRocco's IDS shows a close-up of the field damage on the right side.
O-105a, Also to consider... in the edge order of Leaman - Gunnet the new edge die 6 is put into service, this new annealed edge
created an additional stress to this damaged obverse die, and as Slumlord stated the deterioration " it happened very quickly".
So, what the next hundred or so coins were struck before this obverse went terminal?
To add somemore mystery here...the footnote of the new obverse dies from the third master die is in play.
So O-104, 105 & 106 constitute an new beginning.
Now I know measuring tools of the time weren't near as precise as today s multi-millionths of an inch.
So possibly these dies were minutely smaller and that the striking problems were the result of that.
Remember these dies were turned down on a mechanical device that was controlled by a man with the modern equipment of the time, we often think in modern times and of the everyday things that are around, but weren't thought of back then.
So all that could have lead to the inconsistencies in the die's diameter, or the spacing of the last edge, which it didn't allow enough pressure to force the metal into the coins higher recesses.
Adding more fuel to the fire !
Mike
Did you save a copy of that image of the late 106 from Sheridan's sale? He already took the pics down.
...here is the photo of the 1818 O-106a from Downey MB #33, Lot 25 NGC AU-58
I have all of the photos from Downey's sale on CD compliments of Mike C., aka SomeGuyFromMichigan.
Regards,
Ed R.
Studying this one coin, Lot 25 Downey's MB33, (then comparing to the others where I could )
which I believe shows the evidence of die clash and the resulting lapping.
The odd loss of star points on this die may have been due to point fracture of the left side stars.
With the edge area brittle, is it possible for the die to chip in a fishscale type chip.
It would be similar to those the happen on the edge of glass.
This first picture shows fracture across the left star points.
The other thing I found was the 0 (zero) of 50 C. above the cap, you can see the inside loop.
The next picture is the die crack at Star 12, notice the skips between the crack line. Die lapping.
Here is the Obverse first overlay.
Notice how the letters contact the star points, then relate that with the close-up of the star points.
Now Reverse D, this had many more points than the Obverse.
First the reverse first overlay.
This next picture shows the many edge trace spots that were located on this reverse, one that
really stands out is the one one the end of the Eagle's beak!
Comparing this state to that of Coinlieutenant's O-106a , on page 2.
I've added it here to compare also.
So maybe one reason this hasn't been seen or recognized as this may have been clashed and the lapping really wasn't
that heavy. As the striking continued, it became time to have the dies lapped again.
This is where the little fractures at the edge of the stars came out, then the heavy left edge work was done around the stars.
So soon after this, the reverse could have failed because the abnormal surface of the left side of the obverse die as it corresponds to the existing edge crack of the reverse.
Like you said "...This is a great mystery to me as this is the most severely lapped obverse die in the entire CBH series ! ,
yet merited no mention in Overton."
Mike
<< <i>So soon after this, the reverse could have failed because the abnormal surface of the left side of the obverse die as it corresponds to the existing edge crack of the reverse. >>
The reverse was used again on O.110.
O-105, reverse (now Rev. C) changed out probably replaced the now damaged Rev D.
The Logan coin is an EDS with no breaks or die clash, star 5 has a short point.
The Logan coin does have the crack at star 12. That it is double struck makes it difficult to see the crack. I remember examining this coin at length. Also, you can see the second crack exiting the left side of the cap and it travels across to the dge at left, making this one of the latest states possible, also had to have the heavy clash, again shrouded by the second strike.
Edited to add- if it didn't have any obverse cracks, it would be proof of a remarriage. Russ would not have missed this, and would have written it up in JRJ.
Your overlays are fantastic. Thanks for sharing the images and the scholarship. This 1818 thread is incredibly interesting.
zap
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
This is one of the reasons the Bust half collecting is so interesting!
Slumlord, in response.
I said << So soon after this, the reverse could have failed because the abnormal surface of the left side of the obverse die as it corresponds to the existing edge crack of the reverse. >>
The reverse was used again on O.110.
O-105, reverse (now Rev. C) changed out probably replaced the now damaged Rev D.
The Logan coin is an EDS with no breaks or die clash, star 5 has a short point.
Re:<< The Logan coin does have the crack at star 12. That it is double struck makes it difficult to see the crack. I remember examining this coin at length. Also, you can see the second crack exiting the left side of the cap and it travels across to the edge at left, making this one of the latest states possible, also had to have the heavy clash, again shrouded by the second strike.
Edited to add- if it didn't have any obverse cracks, it would be proof of a remarriage. Russ would not have missed this, and would have written it up in JRJ. >>
So Rev. D was shelved til a later time, which I missed and a note made.
So B&M mis-attributed the coin, so with the die crack exiting the cap
wouldn't this be a O-105a then?
The Logan coin looks later than Edmerlr's coin, with the crack exiting the cap on the left side.
Then back to my last post, what about the possibilty of the die cracking like I asked about?
Where the die clash fractured the obverse's surface at the star points, already brittle from the die-sinking.
Plus, I don't think this was a case of re-marriage, just regular productions problems the plagued the Mint's coinage production.
Ed does your O-105a show a die crack left of the 1 that runs to the drapery, follows the edge of it and runs to the folds on the left or is that just a contact mark?
Mike
Looking at coins this early on a Saturday morning?
Why aren't you guys in Michigan out on your tractor/4 wheeled lawn mowers mowing your 1+ acre lots before it gets too hot in the day?
(In my California suburbia home - where I have a lawn half the size of a volleyball court - I hire a gardener to help out the economy.)
Ooooops! Off the subject.
Checking the "line" on my 1818 O-105a to the left of the first 1, I believe it to be a hairline die crack - and NOT a contact mark or scratch. ...but to be completely honest, I am NOT 100% sure that it is a die crack or something else.
I know this is no help, but I do not have a 30x to use for a better look-see. That's my excuse and I am sticking with it.
Regards and happy Holiday Weekend,
Ed R.
I have to trim the path to the outhouse, Damn Volleyball net.
It is quite "Cool" here this morning, it was sweatshirt weather,
then I had to go out and swat the rooster.
His alarm clock is off, he must be feeling the time change coming on.
Who uses 30 power, a good 10 power loupe and sunlight definitely works the best.
If you have a pocket 30 power, you need to get a stereo microscope.
Maybe then you wouldn't have to scan Dansco pages ....yawn!
Mike
You have a safe Holiday weekend too!
Some diagnostics for 1818 O-111 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. A tiny spike protrudes from the peak of the cap. 8’s have droopy tops. Second 1 is slim and low.
Reverse: Right sides of D and E are in line. Left side of I under right side of T.
O-114a Gotta love LDS!
(edited to add variety.)
O-109
(edited to add variety.)
Nice 115a! Our coins could be sisters... a couple of crack-addict sisters
Mine is getting there. It might look like yours within the next century...
Here are a few more 1818's for this thread. 107 ("the slanted T"), 102 (an EDS 1818/7 small 8), 102a (partly filled upper loop of the 8), 103 (1818/7 large 8).
Lance.
1818/7 O-103
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Lance.
jom
<< <i>Here's an AU58 O.101a I picked up at FUN.
Lance.
Nice upgrade, Lance! That toning matches the rest of your set well
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
1818 O-110
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
An early purchase and a "Dansco" coin
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com