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1828 - The 9th in a series of Capped Bust Half Dollars- Show your busts.
JRocco
Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is the 9th in a series of informative picture threads covering the lettered edge Capped Bust Half Dollars from 1807-36 in reverse year order.
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
If you would like to see any of the previous threads covering the years 1829 to 1836 go HERE to see CoinAddict's thread that provides links to each prior year's thread--Thanks CoinAddict
Let me also thank Mozin for getting this ball rolling on this challenging-yet rewarding series of threads.
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: You don't have to know anything about Bust Half varieties to make a comment, even if it's to say 'I like this coin..',
it helps to keep the thread lively, and all input is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!
If you would like to volunteer to start a thread on a particular year, please see
THIS thread by Mozin that updates our volunteer list.
Please understand that you do not have to go overboard on starting a thread--there are a lot of great people on these boards that can and will jump in to help.
Thanks and enjoy.
1828
The CBH of 1828 were minted using a combination of 13 obverse dies and 17 reverse dies which together produced 23 varieties for the year. There are 2 rare varieties for the year-the O-105 and the O-123, and 2 very scarce varieties- the O-106 and the O-111.
Of interest this year are the different types of the # 2 in the date. There are the "curled base 2" and the "curled and knobbed 2" as well as the "square base knobbed 2". The "curled base 2" and the "curled base knobbed 2" are significantly scarcer.
Here is an example of the O-112, R3
This marriage utilizes Obverse 7 and Reverse J
Some characteristics of this marriage are:
Obv- The date numbers are thick and close, there are several horizontal lines to the left of the 1 and at the end of the bust visible on most specimens, but disappear on worn specimens.
Rev- I is centered under the right side of T, the C leans sharply left and has a doubled serif, line 3 of stripe 3 goes to the 4th crossbar and the arrowheads are connected by die defect lines.
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
If you would like to see any of the previous threads covering the years 1829 to 1836 go HERE to see CoinAddict's thread that provides links to each prior year's thread--Thanks CoinAddict
Let me also thank Mozin for getting this ball rolling on this challenging-yet rewarding series of threads.
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: You don't have to know anything about Bust Half varieties to make a comment, even if it's to say 'I like this coin..',
it helps to keep the thread lively, and all input is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!
If you would like to volunteer to start a thread on a particular year, please see
THIS thread by Mozin that updates our volunteer list.
Please understand that you do not have to go overboard on starting a thread--there are a lot of great people on these boards that can and will jump in to help.
Thanks and enjoy.
1828
The CBH of 1828 were minted using a combination of 13 obverse dies and 17 reverse dies which together produced 23 varieties for the year. There are 2 rare varieties for the year-the O-105 and the O-123, and 2 very scarce varieties- the O-106 and the O-111.
Of interest this year are the different types of the # 2 in the date. There are the "curled base 2" and the "curled and knobbed 2" as well as the "square base knobbed 2". The "curled base 2" and the "curled base knobbed 2" are significantly scarcer.
Here is an example of the O-112, R3
This marriage utilizes Obverse 7 and Reverse J
Some characteristics of this marriage are:
Obv- The date numbers are thick and close, there are several horizontal lines to the left of the 1 and at the end of the bust visible on most specimens, but disappear on worn specimens.
Rev- I is centered under the right side of T, the C leans sharply left and has a doubled serif, line 3 of stripe 3 goes to the 4th crossbar and the arrowheads are connected by die defect lines.
Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
0
Comments
also a die lump in the F of 'OF'.I think I see that in your pic.Nice coin!
I added a pic of the "OF" above.
obverse on the neck caused by die rust. Reverse 5 has a short curved top,higher than 0.I is entirely right of
the T.
My coin is O-117,R1. Square 2,small 8's. Star 13 is 1/2 mm. from curl.Reverse 5 is higher than the 0 and tilted
sharply left.
Obverse: Star 1 points to the lower half of a dentil. The “8’s” are thin, and so is the tip of the “2”. Only the first five 1828 marriages have a curled base pointed top “2”. In this late die state, the stars are drawn to the edge.
Reverse: The middle line of stripe 3 extends upwards into four crossbars. Left sides of “I” and “T” in line.
I think I'm right in saying this is a small 8, square base 2, large letter.
Let me know if I can add any images that are helpful.
Great thread. Jump in here folks.
Some marriage characteristics are the large open curled 2 with the large 8's showing slender lines, the stars are also drawn towards the edge. The reverse shows the center line of stripe 3 extending thru 5 crossbars.
Any thoughts on the second one I posted?
Yours looks like a very nice O-102 R2.
Obverse: Star 1 points to center of dentil. Star 12 points to center of dentil. Curl base "2". There may be die lines in the field left of date.
Reverse: A-A nearly touch. Base of A2 higher than base of "M". Left sides of "I" and "T" in line.
Some diagnostics for Curled 2 Large 8s 1828 O-101 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to the center of a dentil. The “8’s” are thick, and so is tip of “2”. Only the first five 1828 marriages have a curled base pointed top “2”. Sometimes there are die defect lines below bust, left of date. (Same obverse as O-102.)
Reverse: Upper portion of “F” is filled, on most specimens. Very early die state does not have this filling. “I” centered below “T”. On the first five marriages, the reverse is key to attribution.
Your second '28 appears to be the 108, knobbed 2, square base, large 8. Check for recutting on the inside loops of the first 8, also for a die mark on Liberty's breast.
Jim
<< <i>Darn. Maybe these will work.
This one looks like Small 8's O-114 R3 to me. Who else has an opinion?
<< <i>
<< <i>Darn. Maybe these will work.
This one looks like Small 8's O-114 R3 to me. Who else has an opinion?
Mozin,
I thought 114 at first because it does appear to be a small 8. However, at least according to the 4th edition stars 1 and 8 are wrong. On 114 S1 should be upper half not lower; S8 should be lower edge not center to upper half. S13 does appear to touch bust as on 114. On looking again, it does appear to be the reverse of 114 though, so I suspect you are right and I have found another error in the 4th edition.
Why did I give away my copy of the third edition when the 4th first came out?
For years, I had a new in box Overton 3rd edition, just sitting as a backup. After I ordered my copy of the 4th, I sold it to an old dealer friend. Now I wish I still had it. On this O-114 marriage, the two editions agree, except the DS with cracks now listed as 114a, was not included in the 3rd.
I often find myself disagreeing with the Overton star positions, but only by one position.
SM
SPMC - J-12338
McDCCC - Charter Member
Announcing: The Numismatic Enquirer - Website
Some diagnostics for Small 8’s Square Base Knob 2 1828 O-110 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. There is a dot in the field between the forecurl and clasp. Left edge of headband extends up into cap. “2” has a thick base, and thin top with a large knob. (Same obverse as O-111.)
Reverse: All three lines of stripe 6 extend below shield. Line 3 of stripe 1 extends up to crossbar 4. “50C” is high, with “5” having a short curved top. “5” higher than “0”. “I” far right of “T”.
Some diagnostics for Sq base 2 Sm 8’s 1828 O-113 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Figures in date are close and thick. (Obverse is LDS of O-112.)
Reverse: Stripe 6 diverges into extra lines, and there is an extra line to the right of the other stripes. Right sides of “I” and “T” in line. (Reverse shared with O-114 and O-123.)
Some diagnostics for Sq base 2 Sm 8’s 1828 O-120 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. “2” is recut, showing at top left. Just to the right of the end hair curl, there is a strand of hair with a blunt end. (Obverse shared with O-121.)
Reverse: There is a die line from the lower arrow feather that pierces all three talons of the right claw. A3 touches lower arrowhead. “I” is centered under left side of “T”.
While most students of the 1828 LECBH's get excited over the rare O-123, R5 and its 3 distinct die states, the O-121 has always been the 1828 die marriage that (pardon the expression) has always given me a rise in my Levi's. Why?
I cannot tell you the number of hours, days, etc. over the years that I spent looking for the very elusive "a model" of this die state. The diagnostic die crack on this die state (the O-121a) is so darn difficult to see in ANY scan or picture that you are left with two choices if you "must have it" (please, in any grade). The two choices you have are (1) hope to find it in person at coin show where you can pick up EVERY O-121 you see and look for the die crack in the magnifier, or (2) buy EVERY O-121 you can on the Internet and return the ones that are NOT the O-121a (which means you will probably be returning all of them).
First we have the EDS (O-121, R3), after these pictures I will follow with pictures of the one and only one O-121a that I FINALLY found.
The obverse die used on the O-121 was the second and last use of this die. It was first used to strike the O-120. On the O-121 the die is named Obv. die 12-s2 because in this stage of die wear rough die patches can be seen in front of the forecurl and around star 7. The rough die patches are not seen on the O-120. The O-121, like the O-120, has a recut 2 with the former 2 seen up and to the left of the final 2. Both of these diagnostics can be seen in my scan.
It is also the second and last use of the reverse die. This reverse die was first used to strike the very scarce O-116. On the O-121 the reverse die is named Rev. die M, just like it is on the O-116. However, on the O-121 rough die patches can be seen above the right wing, between the eagle's neck and left wing and below the left wing. These are seen in my scan.
The other diagnostics can be found in the O/P books.
Photos of the O-121, R3:
***********************************
Photos of the O-121a, R3 ex Mike Marker collection
Intentical to the EDS O-121 except for a very thin die crack connecting OF AMERIC at the base. At AMERIC this die crack is hard to see because it runs thru the lower serifs.
I am not sure if you can see it in my scans. Trust me, it is there. (Unfortuately I am photographically challenged, so this is the best photo you will get from me.)
I have always believed that this die state should be at least a R5, but it is currently rated a R3. Just is just my opinion.
This slightly uncommon die marriage is not very special in its Early Die State, but the Late Die State (O-107a) is a "whole different ballgame."
The obverse of this die marriage was struck with obverse die 4. This the only time this die was used.
The quick identifier for this die marriage is the die line piercing the liberty band beneath the I of LIBERTY. Another identifier is a horizontal die line in the field immediately above the cap. The 1 is only 1/4 mm from the drapery.
The reverse was struck using reverse die F-s2. This reverse die was used previously to strike the O-106 and was named simply rev. die F for that striking. A primary quick diagnostic for rev. die F on the O-106 is the presence of two horizontal die lines extending under the olive leaves extending left from the eagle's claw. There is also a fine die line just above UNITED, that is almost impossible to detect.
To strike O-107 the Mint removed the horizontal die lines on the reverse die by lapping. This was the creation of rev. die F-s2.
Therefore, in a combination of a new die and a reworked die, the O-107 die marriage was struck using obv. die 4 and rev. die F-s2.
Photos of the O-107, R2:
**************************
The Late Die State, O-107a, is another very, very difficult die state to find.
Although its rarity rating is still classified as an R2, very few specimens have been found.
In a John Reich Journal article published in 1999 the O-107a was ranked 20th in the least frequently seen die states found for sale in any auctions. (This does not include the R6, R7, and R8 coins.)
Steve Herrman, in his Spring 2007 AMBPR lists all of the reported auction sales records for this die state since the beginning of 2000. There have been 6 reported sales. One for a VF25 coin, one for an EF-40 coin, three for an EF-45 and one for an AU-55 coin. The AMBPR also states that there are 8 known specimens and that it is probably a R7 coin.
The O-107a is identical to the O-107 except for the following obverse differences: (1) the horizontal die line above the cap has been removed, (2) there is a die crack from the milling up through the last 8 to the curl, and (3) there is another die crack from the first crack at the lower circle of 8, across the end of the bust upword into the field opposite the nose.
During the striking of the O-107a, obverse die 4-s2 breaks apart.
THIS DIE STATE COULD BE A CHERRYPICKER'S DELIGHT. It is still technically a R2 coin. If you find one, there is a good chance that it will probably be priced as a R2 coin. ...and if it is priced like a R2 coin, I wouldn't be too picky when it comes to grade and condition. Buy it !
Photos of the O-107a, R2:
Square Base 2, Small 8's, Small Letters.
Although this die marriage is only rarity rated as R3---"scarce" by the definition of R3---it is becoming a very difficult die marriage to find in decent condition. Not only are Die Marriage Collectors looking for this coin, but Redbook Set Collectors and those with Dansco Albums are also looking for this die marriage. It is the only 1828 DM with the small letters. This R3 DM sells for a premium over the other 1828 R3 DM's. Indeed, in this case, the demand by far outstrips the supply.
I tried to find this die marriage (at the time I had this "hole" in my Dansco Album to fill) when I did not own an Overton book, a Peterson book---and who had ever heard of "Bust Half Fever?"
I learned one thing rather quickly while looking for this Small Letters 1828 variety. I learned that my eyeballs are physically incapable of telling the difference between a small letters variety and a large letters variety. (This handicap was experienced again when I tried to find the 1834 small letters variety for my album.)
With a little more experience under my belt I now know how easy this die marriage is to identify.
First, the dies:
The obverse of this die marriage was struck with Obverse die 11. This was the second use of this die. The die was first used to strike the O-118. The O-118 was the last 1828 dated coin to be struck in the calendar year 1828. The small letters 1828 O-119 was struck in the calendar year 1829 right after the striking of the 1829 O-110.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck with Reverse die Q. This was the first use of this die. The die was used immediately after to strike the 1829 O-111.
The quick identifiers for this die are:
(1) The tops of A2 and A3 are filled. This is the only 1828 with any filled A's. (The 1829 O-111 also has the filled A2 & A3. ...but there are several 1829 DM's with filled A's.)
(2) Also on the reverse the letters STA in STATES were recut. The recutting can be seen at the upper left of the T and the A. (The 1829 O-111 EDS also shows this recutting. This recutting cannot be seen on the 1829 O-111 LDS.)
Photos of the 1828 O-119, R3:
This is a R5 die marriage with 47 to 63 specimens extimated to exist. (This is not to be confused with the R5- and R5+ survival estimates.)
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 2-s2. This was the third and final use of this die. The die was used previously to strike the O-103 and then the O-104.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die F. This was also the third and final use of this die. The die was used previously to strike the O-106 and then the O-107.
This is one of the EASIEST 1828 die marriages to identify.
On the reverse of the coin the U was punched once, then rotated counterclockwise for its final cutting. The original cut of the U can be seen to the left of the uprights of the U. On my photo, the recutting by the left wing can be easily seen.
Because Reverse die F was also used to strike the O-106 and the O-107, they also have this recutting. ...but the rare O-105 is the ONLY one of these 3 die marriages with the Curl base, no knob 2. The O-106 and O-107 have the Curl base, knobbed 2.
Photos of the 1828 O-105, R5:
Some diagnostics for Sq base 2 Sm 8’s 1828 O-112 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Star 13 nearly touches curl. Figures in date are close and thick. On the EDS, several horizontal defect lines appear just left of the date, and also between end of bust and milling. On this later specimen, most all have been lapped away. (Obverse shared with O-113.)
Reverse: Second “T” in “STATES” is rotated clockwise, and “E” is rotated counterclockwise. Defect lines connect arrowheads. “I” centered under right side of “T”. (Reverse is shared with O-111.)
The O-122 die marriage is considered "scarce," giving it the R3 rarity designation. The O-123 is "rare," giving it the R5+ designation.
The obverse die used for striking both the O-122 and the O-123 die marriage was Obverse die 13.
The reverse of the O-122 die marriage was struck using Reverse die S. This was the first of two uses of this reverse die. It would be used again 2 years later to strike the rare 1830 O-114, R5 Large Letters variety.
The reverse of the O-123 was struck using Reverse die K. This was to be the third and final use of this die. This reverse die was used immediately prior to strike the 1828 O-113 and O-114, in this order.
The Leaman/Gunnet edge die research treatise places the striking order of these two die marriages as the O-123 being struck first, then the O-122. This is called the "Emission Order."
Bust Half specialists now know, after careful research, that there was a "remarriage" of the obverse dies. The research is continuing. Much more needs to be learned about the sequence in which these die were used and/or "switched back and forth" to strike both die marriages.
The key diagnostic for the obverse of both die marriages is the 4 dentil rim break opposite stars 5 and 6.
Most O-122's have this rim break. I do not know how many specimens exist without the break.
Most O-123's have this rim break. There are approximately a half dozen O-123 "Primes" in existence without this die break.
It is believed that Obverse die 13 was first used (without the die break) to strike the O-123 while mated with Reverse die K. Reverse K was then removed from the screw press and Reverse die S was installed to strike the O-122 (this is when the obverse rim break occured). Reverse die S was then removed and Reverse die K was reinstalled to produce more O-123's. (Refer to the John Reich Journal, July 1999, article by Van Harvey.)
The O-123's are found in three primary die states.
...but first photos of my 1828 O-122, R3:
There are 3 primary die states for the O-123. Two of these are listed in the 4th Edition of the Overton/Parsley book.
(1) The EDS O-123 has no obverse rim break at stars 5 & 6.
(2) The Intermediate Die State (IDS) is not listed in the O/P book. It has the obverse rim break, but no other unusal diagnostics on the reverse.
(3) The LDS O-123a has the obverse rim break AND a corrugated imprint under the lower left wing to the tail feathers. There are some Very Late Die States with this imprint (very shallow) above the left wing. Bust Half specialists refer to this corrugated imprint as "Railroad Tracks." Its cause is unknown.
Photos of my 1828 O-123a, R5+:
Edgar
Edgar
He is going "Posting Crazy!"
Horray!
Where's everyone else?
Thanks Edgar for showing us your Crustie Busties.
Regards,
Ed
Van
It's an easy answer. We don't know what caused the railroad tracks. There has been some conjecture that the obverse die break and reverse tracks resulted from the same event. Possibly a clash between two objects. ...but the "jury is still out" on this theory.
I will have to defer the answer to your second question to Mr. Fever or Mr. Slumlord or others who might be more knowledgeable than I.
I am curious as to what they have to say.
Regards,
Ed
Nice pictures as usual.
Van
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series. You selected a forum name that makes me think you are a Bust Half pro. You might want to turn on your private message icon under your profile.
Some diagnostics for Sq base 2 Sm 8’s 1828 O-114a R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. At least five short lines protrude from end of bust. Star 13 is joined to curl. “1” is higher than rest of figures, and the later three figures are all very close to each other.
Reverse: Stripe 6 diverges near its top into extra lines, and there is an extra line to the right of the other stripes. A dot shows protruding down from the scroll directly below the second “U”. Right sides of “I” and “T” are in line. On this LDS, a die crack shows below olive leaves to top of UNITE and along top of STATES. Another crack from above A2 joins top of MERICA to center arrowhead. (Reverse shared with O-113 and O-123.)
I "think" I might know who you are - Were you at John's get together with me and several others a few years ago???
Edgar
Here's a nice 1828, O-112 with a story. This particular piece was purchased back in the 1950's from dealer Barney Bluestone (a popular dealer at the time). But the interesting thing is that this collector, who purchased it (now deceased) got his start in Capped Bust Halves while working as a Bank Manager in the 1940's. One day, one of his tellers came back to him and asked if "we" could take these coins (she had never seen one) in exchange for paper money . . . Yes, someone had brought in an even dozen Capped Bust Halves and WANTED TO TURN THEM IN FOR FACE VALUE! They did! And he became a collector of Capped Bust halves that very day! This piece shown is one that he picked up a few years later from Barney B for a whole $1.47 (I still have the paper envelope). Neat! Oh, and yes, I paid a bit more to get it! Pretty, all original piece with multi-color toning coming in from the edges with flashes of blue, green red, orange and yellow. SCADS of luster!
Edgar
Yes I was one of the 10 or 12 people who sponcered(rail roaded)you for the club.
Van
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.